S03.E20: Kingdom Come

[ShortyMac]

 

A tragic loss brings the family together. Despite Callie’s hesitation, Justina moves forward with the Fost and Found launch party. Brandon tells his moms that Cortney has a son.

 

Well, that was interesting. 

 

The Brallie sex secret is out! I wasn't sure it would actually be revealed. What will happen now? Will Brallie be together or not? Callie's adoption would have to be annulled before they could be a real couple. 

 

I really loved that bit of Lena/Callie that we saw. They've had like three scenes alone together throughout the entire series. She's seemed like such a bystander while Stef's been seen as more a parent to the kids. Yay for more Stef/Callie.

 

I really liked Callie confronting Justina. One of the only times she was likable in 3B. I wonder what's gonna happen with that?

 

I didn't think Gabe building sets would fall back on Lena, but, the play was a school project. Is Monte and Lena going to be fired?

 

Of course Jesus talks to Gabe's PO and makes things worse. Teenagers (on TV) are dumb.

 

Mike/Ana is dumb. Hate it.

 

Brandon is dumb. Using that $7,500 on an apartment for Cortney? Ugh. Go buy yourself a brain, Brandon. Couldn't he take out student loans for Julliard? Why is it "I can only go if I can get financial aid" or nothing?

 

What is Nick going to do with that gun? Shoot himself? Shoot Mat? Shoot Mariana? Will Stef being there matter (she's a cop with a gun)? Poor Mariana.

 

I like what they're doing with Jude, him questioning his sexuality. He's thirteen, so I buy his thinking. It's just weird to me to hear him talking about God since the rest of the family isn't religious. But, I like that no one's judging him for it.

 

Joanna Johnson (EP) said the 4A premiere is on June 20. https://twitter.com/JoannaJohnson31/status/714605848182398976

Edited March 29, 2016 by ShortyMac

[KaveDweller]

This was a really depressing finale. Also, everyone was stupid.

 

Brandon giving Courtney the money. Very, very, dumb. $7500 may not pay for Julliard, but it is $7500 less that you'll have to borrow or get aid for. At the very least tell Court you are loaning her the money.  Don't just give it to her. Also, that apartment looked way too nice for a bartender's salary to keep up.

 

I'd say it's stupid for Jesus to tell Gabe's parole office about what he was doing, but really Steph was stupid for letting Gabe do that and telling Jesus it was okay. And if Lena knew she was stupid as well.

 

Callie was stupid for going after Justina personally so publicly. Say the corporation is at fault and that you don't support the bill, but that should have been it. Yell at her when no one else is around.

 

I felt bad for Nick thinking Mariana cheated and for having a crappy father, but then he had to go all psycho and burn down the warehouse? I'm not looking forward to however that gets resolved.

 

I did kind of like the Jude storyline.

[JaggedLilPill]

I am probably going to sound like an asshole, but Nick? Way too extreme. Didn't they just start dating? I get that he's hurt, and it sucks, but c'mon. Hyperbole. 

 

Fuck Justina. I was glad Callie called her out on it, but I knew what the fallout would be. But then again, I wish Callie hadn't been so naive in the first place. 

 

Poor Jesus. No winning with Gabe.

 

Ana and Mike seems like a supremely awful idea, but whatever. Knew it would happen eventually.

 

Brandon is insufferable. Ugh. 'Nuff said.

 

I can see why Jude would jump to those conclusions and start to question a lot of stuff. It didn't look like he was into the kiss with Taylor at all. I suppose we will see where they go with it, but I don't believe there are many fictional characters on TV who are pansexual. So it could be interesting if they go that route, and Jude being attracted to the person rather than the gender. 

[xyzzy]

While I'm glad that the cat's out of the bag with Brallie, I'm annoyed that the natural next step will likely be a CPS investigation into the Fosters and/or a rescindment of the adoption. (Foster siblings having sex and inappropriate intimacy on more than one occasion, a sex offender having contact with minor children with the parents' knowledge and consent.)

 

I'm not a parent, but I would find it very difficult to love Callie. She's fueled by a need for self-centered melodrama and impulse-driven behavior to the point where I wonder if it's pathological. I would have had her ass in weekly therapy, court-mandated or not. Especially after the AJ incident. The situation with Liam was abusive but it might have set her up for a pattern of inappropriate sexual behavior that may not even be fueled by genuine attraction to Brandon or AJ or whomever--it's like she just needs to replay that power dynamic over and over again.

 

With respect to Jude, I think it's in character. He has always resisted the label and he even said that he was "gay for Connor" at the LGBT prom. The behind-the-scenes stuff might be driving this storyline, but it's fine. The actor is young and shouldn't feel pressured to do anything he isn't comfortable with to satisfy a tv show narrative.

 

Brandon is just annoying. That's quite an apartment. He's definitely a rescuer personality type. The problem with this is that he will either fail to fix a situation and then suffer, or the problem is solved and then he will be bored and off to rescue the next damsel. Meh.

 

The cliffhanger was annoying. We've had a lot of shooting on this show. I'm not really up for more.

[possibilities]

Nick was always impulsive (like Jesus) so I though this reaction was in character, compounded by him realizing he is partly responsible because he did steal the letter. I think he was basically at his limit from being constantly berated and demeaned by his father, and he couldn't take one more "failure" or humiliation. I actually know someone who had a similar kind of personality and even though a lot of people loved her, and were trying to convince her of how awesome she was, she killed herself when something happened that other people were trying to make her see how she could get through, and that we would help her, but she just couldn't get past it. And Nick was way younger and had way less support, so I totally buy his actions.

 

Maia did a great job acting in the scene where she tells the moms the allegations are true about her and Brandon.

 

Hopefully Justina will burn in hell. I don't even believe in hell but I"m hoping it will suddenly come into existence just so she has a place to go.

 

Brandon is the ultimate co-dependent. This show takes on every other issue; why don't they have Brandon in Al Anon? He should have been in it since he was 5 years old, most likely. Or does Alateen take kids? Anyway, I hope Courtney refuses, but even if she does, I'm sure that won't make any difference in the overall pattern.

 

I do like that the chickens are coming home to roost. Consequences are the stuff of life. I don't know what the show will do, so I don't know whether I will like it, but I'm glad they are at least having some kind of consequences.

 

Monte vs The Student: I really don't know what to believe, but either way, Monte is definitely at fault for crap judgment and needs to grow up and get a grip on herself. I was glad Lena told her off, and Monte's indignant reaction shows just how little she has learned and how much she still gets off on getting away with stuff. I like that they've shown her character to be consistent in this way.

 

It's kind of cool that the things that annoy me about the characters turn out to be the things that blow up in their faces. Even Stef's anger and Lena's patience, which are the source of their strengths as well as their weaknesses, are being shown up this week.

 

This was hard to watch but I kind of liked it. And I've been losing enthusiasm for the show, and being really quite annoyed by it for a good while now. Still not loving it the way I used to, but they successfully have me paying attention again and hoping they are now going to do something interesting with the stuff I hated, maybe. We'll see.

 

ETA:

 

The actor is young and shouldn't feel pressured to do anything he isn't comfortable with to satisfy a tv show narrative.

The actor was told before they hired him what the role would involve. Bu even if he wasn't, a show can't let the ego or homophbia of an actor dictate the story. First of all, it would sow chaos in tv production. Second of all, it's just wrong. There is much more at stake here than just the feelings of one actor. I don't know that it is what is going on, though. It is actually a fairly credible bit of homophobic BS that some kids go through, to think they are being punished by God or some crap like that, and if the show wants to expose that, and this whole "God is punishing me" business is another bit of PTSD for Jude, I can live with it, even though it's not nearly as fun to watch as him being a happy kid.

Edited March 29, 2016 by possibilities

[LisaM]

I have less than zero interest in watching a CPS investigation or in having the adoption rescinded so I hope they don't go down that route. The restraining order that Justina posted on Fost and Found was public info and was known before the adoption was granted. (Giving Justina admin privileges backfired.) She has no proof that anything occurred unless either Daphne or Cortney spill the secret. The question is what the moms are going to do.

Brandon continues to be a moron. I was surprised by Jude speaking in religious terms at the beach. I don't recall him being religious before.

[ShortyMac]

I'm not a parent, but I would find it very difficult to love Callie. She's fueled by a need for self-centered melodrama and impulse-driven behavior to the point where I wonder if it's pathological. I would have had her ass in weekly therapy, court-mandated or not. Especially after the AJ incident. The situation with Liam was abusive but it might have set her up for a pattern of inappropriate sexual behavior that may not even be fueled by genuine attraction to Brandon or AJ or whomever--it's like she just needs to replay that power dynamic over and over again.

 

Very good points. Callie was shown to be in one-on-one therapy in Season 2.

 

Brandon is the ultimate co-dependent. This show takes on every other issue; why don't they have Brandon in Al Anon? He should have been in it since he was 5 years old, most likely. Or does Alateen take kids? Anyway, I hope Courtney refuses, but even if she does, I'm sure that won't make any difference in the overall pattern.

 

As of 02x13, Brandon has gone to Alateen meetings in the past.

[maraleia]

 

With respect to Jude, I think it's in character. He has always resisted the label and he even said that he was "gay for Connor" at the LGBT prom. The behind-the-scenes stuff might be driving this storyline, but it's fine. The actor is young and shouldn't feel pressured to do anything he isn't comfortable with to satisfy a tv show narrative.

 

What behind the scenes stuff?

[ShortyMac]

What behind the scenes stuff?

Drama between Gavin and Hayden (and his mom/their families). That's why Gavin left the show.

[maraleia]

Drama between Gavin and Hayden (and his mom/their families). That's why Gavin left the show.

Wow where did you hear this and what happened to cause this?

[omgsowicked]

Count me in as someone very confused by all Jude's God talk... why didn't anyone ask, "so where's this religion stuff coming from, anyway?" Not to persuade him or anything, just to clarify, because he sure as heck didn't learn it at home. I'm cool with Jude exploring his sexuality and/or this being a response to Jack's death. I just hope Taylor doesn't get hurt. I don't know much about any BTS stuff (other than that the actors who play Jude and Connor had a falling out, which may be why Connor's gone?) but I hope this story is being dictated more by plot than by (teenage) actor drama. I hate that shit.

 

Glad Callie owned Justina. Bill aside, she's turned out to be quite nasty. I'm glad the Brallie secret is finally out (great job by Maia) but I don't know where they'll go with it since the show seems to want both things that can't coexist, Callie being adopted and Brallie. If the adoption is nullified, then all of this was a waste... but if she remains in the family, this ~star-crossed lovers~ thing will likely continue, and I'm at my wits end with that. As soon as they introduced Callie's rich and decent dad, this Brallie stuff became contrived nonsense. Maybe Brandon will move out and they can finally get the space to move on. And I wish someone would take serious note of how she and Brandon seem to have unhealthy types (foster brothers for her, needy/broken women for him).

 

Brandon's a moron, and I wish Stef and Lena wouldn't back down every time he says, "it's not up for discussion". Sweetie, you still live in their house, and you're not the parent, so sit your ass down. My god. Like, why is he so determined about this? I'm sorry but she hasn't been shown to be very special. Anyway, I liked the Brandon/Mike stuff, since it's been a while and it was good to show the comparisons. They both need to go with Callie to some therapy sessions, have it spelled out for them. Brandon's lucky Cortney doesn't seem to be taking advantage of him. As for Mike, I wonder what Ana and Gabe talked about when she ran after him. (And if Gabe's really in so much trouble, why'd he go over to a house he knows has minors in it? LOL.)

 

Wow, didn't think Old Nick would be going dark like that. I'm getting murder-suicide vibes but since Mariana won't bite it (and this isn't the kind of show that would do that, lol)... maybe he'll go for Mat but Mat's girlfriend will get shot by accident. Or maybe since Stef's already at the school, she'll catch up to him quickly enough and he'll be offed. Hmm. Good cliffhangers, this and the Brallie reveal.

Edited March 29, 2016 by omgsowicked

[Perfect Xero]

So the one time Brandon and his GF go to her place, her ex shows up, kicks her out, takes all her money out of her account (because she didn't take his name off it)? And this all happens at the same time that Brandon is hitting 18 and getting his settlement money? Oh, and someone told Justina about Brandon and Callie and she just happens to be one of the only people who knows? I feel like this all adds up to her and the ex running a con on Brandon.

 

That or it's just crazy writing for the sake of drama. Either way.

 

Very good points. Callie was shown to be in one-on-one therapy in Season 2.

 

 

As of 02x13, Brandon has gone to Alateen meetings in the past.

 

I think Brandon told Jesus that he went to one or two meetings, decided that it was lame, and started skipping them. So ... yeah.

[possibilities]

That God stuff is everywhere. If you don't get it at home, rest assured you'll get it from somewhere else. I can't even remember where I first heard it, but as a lesbian kid in a totally secular and queer-friendly household, I don't even remember NOT knowing that "God will punish you" was practically the air most people breathed. I totally bought Callie skipping "where did you get that?" and going right to "I don't think it works that way." It would be like asking "where did you get the idea that Jesus died on the cross?" You don't have to believe it to know about it and if you happen to internalize it, well... people can argue but they don't wonder how you thought of it. I think it might be that if you carry the label (of being one of the ones who are alleged to be slated for damnation), you are more sensitized to the existence of the condemnation, so you remember it and it feels very charged to you, where if you're on the approved side of the sinner line, you might not really focus on that part, or think about it all that much, like the prohibition on wearing mixed fabrics or one of the other biblical crimes you don't relate to all that much. Also, the conversation might go differently if the moms knew Jude's thinking, but I think it was only Callie who he told about it.

 

I also thought Courtney and her "ex" might be running a con, and I guess we'll see how it turns out. I don't know why she would think Brandon would be able to bail her out, though. Until now he was just a high school kid playing piano in the bar because he needs money. Possibly someone who might be an easy mark, but hardly the type who'd seem well-positioned for the role of knight in shining armor. Though it's possible I guess that since Brandon stupidly told her about Callie, that she could see that as an opportunity for blackmail. But still-- who would believe her? And with Brandon being underage when they started dating, Courtney hardly seems in the position to involve the courts in anything about their relationship.

 

I didn't know there was actual confirmed drama behind the scenes about the Jude-Connor situation or that Gavin had left the show over it. I find that very upsetting. I keep trying to make excuses for the weird writing choices on this show, but maybe it is just convoluted BS due to backstage crap. Jude-Connor was one of the most popular things about the show, though, so why would TPTB allow it to be destroyed? I would like to know exactly what is known to have happened, because it's not making a lot of sense to me right now.

Edited March 29, 2016 by possibilities

[LisaM]

If Justina really knows the truth -- of which I am not convinced -- I don't think it was Cortney who divulged the secret. I think it was Daphne. Perhaps Justina figured they were plotting together against her and threatened to fire Daphne thus forcing Daphne to lose the job which was the key to keeping Tasha unless she helped to discredit Callie. I still think that Justina only has the old dirt on Callie -- not the real info -- and that Callie is the one who outs herself to the moms. I'm hoping that the truth doesn't become public beyond the moms.

I wonder if Lena loses her job or if Monte gets shot by Nick thus compelling the board to retain Lena lest they have no leadership at all?

[marceline]

Since Justina put the restraining order against Brandon out on the web, it doesn't really matter whether it's the old dirt or not.

 

Ugh, this stuff with Nick. This show just careens from one bit of melodrama to another without letting us get to know these people at all. They cycle in, cause a bunch of shit then cycle out again. It's part of the reason it's so hard to grasp the timeline on this show. They just keep piling on the plots.

 

And Jesus, honestly, how naive is he? Gabe may go back to jail, Lena now has to answer for letting him make the sets all because Jesus just can't let this go.

 

As for Jude, I'm officially at, "Whatever. Let me know what you want to be called when you figure it out!" 

 

 

The actor was told before they hired him what the role would involve. Bu even if he wasn't, a show can't let the ego or homophobia of an actor dictate the story. First of all, it would sow chaos in tv production. Second of all, it's just wrong. There is much more at stake here than just the feelings of one actor.

 

I'm a big believer in bodily autonomy. Nobody should ever be forced to do something with their body that they don't want to do. I don't care whether it's an actress refusing to do nude scenes or an actor who doesn't want to say perform a certain stunt or someone not comfortable doing a same-sex love scene. Every actor has the right to say no and if that means they lose the job then so be it. I believe that even more strongly when dealing actors who are minors. Boundaries are boundaries and we're all entitled to them whether or not I agree with the reasoning behind them. JMHO.

Edited March 29, 2016 by marceline

[TeapotWakeen]

Well, luckily all the time I spent fast forwarding through the musical numbers last week didn't mess up watching the episode tonight. Although it did remind me that I'm just about done with the show. I just can't with the Braillie anymore. Well, mostly Brandon, whom I find completely insufferable. I'd have just DARED one of my kids to bark 'It's not open for discussion" on the day before his 18th birthday. OH HELL NO. Just.... no. 

 

I like that Jude is questioning his sexuality further. That rings true to me.

[maraleia]

I was watching my DVD of the second season of Once and Again, a similar show in that it involves family drama, and it struck me that they didn't pile on so many storylines over the course of three seasons and allowed us to get to know the characters. They spent an entire season dealing with Jessie's eating disorder and adjusting to high school for example and didn't pile on another issue for her to deal with on top of those two things. Also, the timeline made sense because they actually acknowledged holidays and school milestones.

It's hard for me to be invested in any of the characters on this show right now because they do bounce from one crisis to another in such a short time. That doesn't happen in real life.

Also, the Braille thing was a big misstep and in doing some research I discovered that the ratings experienced a significant drop off after Brandon and Callie had sex. They haven't been able to crack a million viewers since that moment. I wonder if Bradley, Peter and Joanna see that or if they have blinders on regarding Braille and like the drama it creates.

Most of us came to the show to watch two amazing women in a stable, sexy relationship and how they deal with raising three kids and two new foster kids not the ridiculous multiple teen dramas that are only present on TV shows. I want to see Stef and Lena more and the kids less.

Edited March 29, 2016 by maraleia

[Perfect Xero]

I also thought Courtney and her "ex" might be running a con, and I guess we'll see how it turns out. I don't know why she would think Brandon would be able to bail her out, though. Until now he was just a high school kid playing piano in the bar because he needs money. Possibly someone who might be an easy mark, but hardly the type who'd seem well-positioned for the role of knight in shining armor. Though it's possible I guess that since Brandon stupidly told her about Callie, that she could see that as an opportunity for blackmail. But still-- who would believe her? And with Brandon being underage when they started dating, Courtney hardly seems in the position to involve the courts in anything about their relationship.

 

He's probably been telling her about his plans to attend Juilliard and his injury settlement for his hand since 10 minutes after he met her.

[LisaM]

 

Since Justina put the restraining order against Brandon out on the web, it doesn't really matter whether it's the old dirt or not.

At the adoption hearing, the judge specifically referenced the restraining order when he asked Callie if there was anything still romantic with Brandon so the restraining order is old news.

[fauxphysician]

I echo --and applaud-- Maraleia's post!  As a Lesbian in a long/committed relationship who has raised children with her partner, I 've watched this show from the get go largely for the portrayal of the Steph and Lena relationship. Have been willing to tolerate all the teen angst and drama (some of which has been painfully familiar!) to see a Lesbian couple presented in a positive and realistic way. I realize that I'm not the Show's target demographic, and that it's pretty sad that one has to latch on to a teencentric series to see lesbians leading basically happy and healthy lives....but....frankly, they're losing me.  The whole Braille thing and plot overloads are making it more and more difficult for me to continue.  

[xman4802]

First, I'd like to echo the concerns that the show seems to be piling the drama onto the characters in a way that is unrealistic and problematic and seems more contrivance in the service of melodrama rather than actual plot or character development.  While I love a good Lifetime style melodrama, I certainly don't want to watch it week in and week out (these things work better as once off movies with clear resolutions after 2 hours) .  Also, I feel that the writers/showrunners of the show have gotten themselves into a pickle.  I think they imagined a target audience of teens and pre-teens whose parents would also watch but because of the dearth of positive/realistic portrayals of same sex couples raising families actually attracted a far more adult audience.  This IMO has caused significant tension in the show that the show either does not want to resolve or is afraid of resolving.  Alas, it gets back to the old adage that if you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one.  Does the show want to be a teen melodrama or a more nuanced portrayal of family life that just so happens to be headed by two lesbian women?  Often, the show has sacrificed the latter for the former although from episode to episode it has veered wildly in focus from mundane everyday family and school life to having the characters lurch from crisis to crisis.  I am not sure what the solution is, but I imagine that if ratings continue to tank the show won't be around much longer to offer a course correction. 

 

It is clear to me that the relationship between Callie and Brandon was telegraphed in the pilot hence I suppose if it was going to annoy me, I should probably have not watched the show.  That being said, I really thought that they had settled this issue and I think the reason why people are increasingly frustrated with this show is that  the storyline continues to be dragged out to the detriment of what could be far more interesting and meaningful plot points.  At the very least, I would be more interested in seeing Callie and Brandon explore through therapy why they continue to make such horrible choices.  Brandon is the classic child of an alcoholic ready to rescue and take care of, and as someone pointed out upthread, perhaps Callie is re-enacting her own trauma and trying to change the power dynamics by essentially moving from foster brother to foster brother.  If there is anyone who watches this show with a teen or pre-teen child, I would also be interested in knowing do you get a sense that they are in support of this disastrous plot line?  I'm just wondering if the idea that the "core intended audience" for the show ships Brallie is even true, again assuming that the showrunners/writers even understand their core audience which in fact might be older LGBT people like myself who are putting up with the teen angst and drama so that we can see a same-sex couple raising children and navigating life. 

 

As for Jude, the show also doesn't seem to know what they want to do with him.  I feel like they moved so quickly from "I don't like labels" to "I'm gay" with his character that didn't allow for the possibility of various forms of sexual fluidity whether pansexual or bisexual queer etc.  Nor did it allow for him to just explore his feelings even though I understand that some of that was pressure from Connor to ID as gay or lose the relationship.  It seems in this episode though that Jude feels he is being "punished" for his sexuality and that perhaps that means he isn't/wasn't meant to be gay which IMO is  different from embodying a fluid sexuality. Both are valid issues to explore, but the distinction between the two (even if embodied in the same character) should not be blurred.  

 

Lastly, I had no idea about the supposed drama/fall-out between Gavin and Hayden and or their moms.  And since it has been mentioned by several posters I would  appreciate a link or something less cryptic about what went on.  While I am not sure this is the forum to do so, I would appreciate being directed to a place where this could be discussed. I imagine I am not the only one who was surprised to hear about the backstage drama and what effect if any this might have had on plot/character development. 

[Perfect Xero]

I want to say that they did something with Jude being interested in religion before, sometime around the time Mariana's birth-grandparents were trying to use the excuse of becoming a Godparent to get her to join the Catholic church. Maybe I'm imagining that though.

[maraleia]

I'm also disturbed by the constant addition of men into the Adams Foster orbit. I can understand Mike but then they had to add Donald, Robert and now Gabe into the equation like two moms can't possible raise kids without men in their lives. I know Donald was a small presence but it still bothers me. It reminds me of The Kids Are All Right. At least Stef and Lena didn't sleep with any men like in that movie.

One thing that struck me about An Unexpected Love and The Truth About Jane- two early 2000's Lifetime movies was, even though there was turmoil, the stories had a happy ending and the queer women were validated. I feel like Stef and Lena haven't been given their due as the parents of five teenagers enough especially lately.

I guess I'm worried about season 4 with the Callie confession. I saw on Rob Morrow's instagram page the cover for the script for episode 4.1 and the cast sheet that can be seen due to the lighting says Callie Jacob not Adams Foster. If they rescind Callie's adoption WTF is the point of the show?

[possibilities]

Daphne is the one who showed Callie the evidence that Justina was lying, and then told her to expose it even though it might mean Daphne loses her job, so I don't think it's likely she's doing anything to get Callie in trouble or win Justina's favor.

 

An actor being indulged for not wanting to do a same sex kiss or love story is no different than letting them refuse to do an interracial kiss or relationship story, and l still think it's not something to bow down to. I can't even imagine the outcry if Maia had said she wouldn't do the AJ relationship because she didn't want to be with a Black kid, or if suddenly Teri Polo said she wanted out because she didn't like being made to be "so butch"-- it's just unacceptable. It's not like this was a bait and switch bit of casting. The show has been very clear about what it is and what the roles involved. Recasting is an option but if actors could dictate the storylines, no script would ever get out of the writers' room and there's no way any show could shoot.

 

Also, it's really weird to me because Jude has gone from crying over being separated from Connor when Connor was in the hospital, and clearly being super-invested and courageously defiant (putting on the nail polish, sneaking out, camping out at the hospital, sayhing he loved him, calling Connor on giving mixed messages, etc), to being cold and angry and not invested at all, and harshing at his sister besides-- it's like a complete personality change. So if it is the actor, they have let him take over to the extent that he's completely a different character. They could have had a break up for some other reason if just breaking them up was the plan. Or have him become traumatized and shut down because of some other incident. Having Jude have a total personality change was really not necessary to accomplish the break up, even if that was the way they wanted to go. And I can't imagine them letting a kid actually dictate a complete 180 for his character just because he threw a tantrum and said he didn't want to play it out as written. It's just bad business, all other issues aside. So there really does need to be some kind of in story explanation that we have not been shown. He somehow managed to get through foster care and all kinds of hell without losing his sweetness and then at some point when things were finally going his way, he turned into this sullen angry kid.

[maraleia]

I don't think Hayden is dictating these story changes. I think it's the showrunners who are making lemonade out of lemons due to what we hear happened between him and Gavin that also involved their parents. Hayden tweeted last night that his favorite couple on TV is Stef and Lena and he wouldn't be on this show if he suddenly became homophobic.

I remember when the actor who played Clay Carlin- Danso Gordon left the show due to his then homophobic beliefs. He's since had an awakening as seen in this article http://www.afterellen.com/tv/59073-south-of-nowheres-danso-gordon-has-a-change-of-heart-about-lgbt-people

[marceline]

An actor being indulged for not wanting to do a same sex kiss or love story is no different than letting them refuse to do an interracial kiss or relationship story, and l still think it's not something to bow down to. I can't even imagine the outcry if Maia had said she wouldn't do the AJ relationship because she didn't want to be with a Black kid, or if suddenly Teri Polo said she wanted out because she didn't like being made to be "so butch"-- it's just unacceptable. It's not like this was a bait and switch bit of casting. The show has been very clear about what it is and what the roles involved. Recasting is an option but if actors could dictate the storylines, no script would ever get out of the writers' room and there's no way any show could shoot.

 

I agree there would be outcry, it just wouldn't come from me. I 100 percent support a person's right to say "no" when it comes to their body even if I find the reasoning behind it offensive. If Maia said she didn't want to do scenes with the actor who plays AJ because he's black that's her right even if I would completely lose respect for her. I have a friend whose an actress and she won't do nude scenes. Of course she's clear about that upfront and doesn't audition for roles that call for it. She ended up doing one with implied nudity and I found it on some nasty soft core site that claimed to have "Jane Smith NUDE pics" (not her real name.). If you don't respect their boundaries then you are essentially forcing someone to do something with their body they aren't comfortable with out of contractual obligation and I think that can be a slippery slope.

 

 

I'm also disturbed by the constant addition of men into the Adams Foster orbit. I can understand Mike but then they had to add Donald, Robert and now Gabe into the equation like two moms can't possible raise kids without men in their lives.

 

I think that points back to the way the show cycles through characters. Have we heard anything about Robert or Sophia? Nope we just moved on to a new suicidal character and her parent (Rita and her daughter) and now we've got Nick sitting in the parking lot with a gun when we had Connor shot last season. The churn is really nuts.

[GinnyMars]

Most of us came to the show to watch two amazing women in a stable, sexy relationship

 

Well, most of us adults on an old-school forum, maybe, but the show is aimed at teens... And as I discovered this week, it has legions of "Brallie" and "Jonnor" fans who are really upset with their ships not going the way they want, and who are threatening to just drop the show! Interestingly, the Mat/Mariana pairing doesn't seem to interest them quite as much...

 

I had no idea about the supposed drama/fall-out between Gavin and Hayden and or their moms.  And since it has been mentioned by several posters I would  appreciate a link or something less cryptic about what went on.

 

I have the deets! Or part of them at least. I went looking for the R+J songs on Tumblr this week, found out about the "falling out" in the process, was astonished that there seemed to be so much drama bts of this show, struggled a bit to find info, but more or less managed to get an idea of the main fan theories, I think. So:

• Hayden Byerly (Jude) and Gavin Macintosh (Connor) were friends, now they're not
• their moms were friends, now they're not
• from what I understand, G's departure from the show was unexpected/abrupt
• apparently G was much more popular on social media, and there may have been some resentment on H's part
• apparently H's mom tweeted about G's mom not wanting him to play gay; but the fans seem to think that problem is more on the Byerly side
• H's mom also apparently laid into the guy who played Jesus, saying he showed up drunk to set and that's why he was fired
• H and his mom have talked about all this a lot on social media; G and his mom have not
• overall, most Jonnor fans seem to hate H's mom and love G; make of that what you will...
• ETA: oh also if I remember correctly, whatever happened happened between the beginning of the filming of season 3 and last August

 

For more info, you can try:

• https://jonnor-rumors.tumblr.com/
• https://www.tumblr.com/tagged/michelle-byerly (includes the screencaps of her exchanges with Jake T. Austin on the second page)

 

Lol, I feel so gossipy right now, but since I spent such a long time this week trying to figure this thing out, I thought I'd share!

Edited March 29, 2016 by GinnyMars

[maraleia]

I have the deets! Or part of them at least. I went searching for the R+J songs on Tumblr this week, found out about the "falling out" in the process, was astonished that there seemed to be so much drama bts of this show, struggled a bit to find info, but more or less managed to get an idea of the main fan theories, I think. So:

• Hayden Byerly (Jude) and Gavin Macinthosh (Connor) were friends, now they're not
• their moms were friends, now they're not
• from what I understand, G's departure from the show was unexpected/abrupt
• apparently G was much more popular on social media, and there may have been some resentment on H's part
• apparently H's mom tweeted about G's mom not wanting him to play gay; but the fans seem to think that problem is more on the Byerly side
• H's mom also apparently laid into the guy who played Jesus, saying he showed up drunk to set and that's why he was fired
• H and his mom have talked about all this a lot on social media; G and his mom have not
• overall, most Jonnor fans seem to hate H's mom and love G; make of that what you will...
• ETA: oh also if I remember correctly, whatever happened happened between the beginning of the filming of season 3 and last August

 

For more info, you can try:

• https://jonnor-rumors.tumblr.com/
• https://www.tumblr.com/tagged/michelle-byerly (includes the screencaps of her exchanges with Jake T. Austin on the second page)

 

Lol, I feel so gossipy right now, but since I spent such a long time this week trying to figure this thing out, I thought I'd share!

The reason why my mind is changed regarding this situation. I think Michelle is a typical stage mom who is coasting on her son's success. I also believe that Gavin is still an LGBT ally due to who and what he follows on twitter (much more than Hayden BTW) and would be getting more complex roles because he's older than Hayden and doesn't look so young that he can't play older teen roles. It's sad that this drama and the drama surrounding Jake has caused so many issues with this show. That it's affecting story lines is even more disheartening as evidenced by last night's episode.

Reading the Jonnor rumors tumblr page and it seems as if they edited Jude out of the scene where everyone is rallying around Stef post surgery. Also, Hayden is 15 and old enough to be a little part of every episode especially if he's being tutored on the set since we haven't heard if he's at an actual high school. I think Hayden's mom is batshit crazy and is infecting the show with some kind of horrible disease. She sounds just as bad as Ariel Winter's mom and needs to be stopped. Remember this show has barely been able to stay above 900,000 viewers out of 330 million documented Americans during the entire time it's been on this winter.

Also, have you noticed that Sherri and Teri aren't as active promoting the show now. Now I know why. They are upset that the showrunners are allowing Hayden's mom to dictate story. I guess Hayden was a great young kid but when he became a teenager he turned into an insufferable person. Go look at his twitter. It's all mindless stuff while Gavin's is about the work and causes he supports.

Edited March 29, 2016 by maraleia

[possibilities]

I don't think Hayden is dictating these story changes.

OK. I guess I just don't know what the rumors are or where they are coming from exactly. I tried looking around on line to see where all this information was coming from, and what exactly was being said, and how credible any of it was, and I couldn't find anything. Gavin has been all over the media talking about how ardent a supporter of LGBT issues he is, even as recently as last week when he actually said raising money for the LA LGBT youth center was the best birthday present he could have (see his twitter for the birthday news). And Hayden is also all sunshine and support, while Bradley Bredewig says Jude is still gay (see his recent tweet). If there is behind the scenes drama, maybe it comes from the parents, not either actor.

 

I dunno. I thought the show did a good enough job setting up why Connor moved away, and everything made sense until Jude broke up with him over the sext and turned into a kind of closed off and angry, unforgiving kid. I think I was happier wondering what they were doing and waiting to see, before I also had vague rumors to also kick around. I like knowing behind the scenes info, and it's good if people are being professional and not gossiping to the press. But at the same time, if there is info out there, I wish the source was posted along with the rumor, so it could be evaluated more clearly.

 

ETA: I am a slow typist and wrote this at the same time the info was being posted above, thus I had not seen it until after making my comments. Thanks for letting us all know where this stuff is coming from.

Edited March 29, 2016 by possibilities

[marceline]

Lol, I feel so gossipy right now, but since I spent such a long time this week trying to figure this thing out, I thought I'd share!

 

Hey, you brought the receipts and did it in a very even handed fashion. I thank you for the info.

[ShortyMac]

Well, most of us adults on an old-school forum, maybe, but the show is aimed at teens... And as I discovered this week, it has legions of "Brallie" and "Jonnor" fans who are really upset with their ships not going the way they want, and who are threatening to just drop the show! Interestingly, the Mat/Mariana pairing doesn't seem to interest them quite as much...

I have the deets! Or part of them at least. I went searching for the R+J songs on Tumblr this week, found out about the "falling out" in the process, was astonished that there seemed to be so much drama bts of this show, struggled a bit to find info, but more or less managed to get an idea of the main fan theories, I think. So:

• Hayden Byerly (Jude) and Gavin Macintosh (Connor) were friends, now they're not
• their moms were friends, now they're not
• from what I understand, G's departure from the show was unexpected/abrupt
• apparently G was much more popular on social media, and there may have been some resentment on H's part
• apparently H's mom tweeted about G's mom not wanting him to play gay; but the fans seem to think that problem is more on the Byerly side
• H's mom also apparently laid into the guy who played Jesus, saying he showed up drunk to set and that's why he was fired
• H and his mom have talked about all this a lot on social media; G and his mom have not
• overall, most Jonnor fans seem to hate H's mom and love G; make of that what you will...
• ETA: oh also if I remember correctly, whatever happened happened between the beginning of the filming of season 3 and last August

For more info, you can try:

• https://jonnor-rumors.tumblr.com/
• https://www.tumblr.com/tagged/michelle-byerly (includes the screencaps of her exchanges with Jake T. Austin on the second page)

Lol, I feel so gossipy right now, but since I spent such a long time this week trying to figure this thing out, I thought I'd share!

You explained this much more coherently and orderly than I could have. Thanks.

[GinnyMars]

Also also also:

• apparently there was talk of a reality show for H's mom (and maybe G's mom also, I'm not sure)
• G was apparently "in tears" on snapchat at some point (when he announced he wasn't coming back, I think?)
• another theory I read on some blog just now: "some fans think that both Hayden and Michelle got upset about the “Gayden” shipping on Instagram and wanted Jonnor “toned down” as a result"
• there was also speculation that body doubles were used for their last hug on the show (that Kalicia realness right there!), but that was debunked

 

And now I'm closing my browser! That's enough gossip for one day, lol.

Edited March 29, 2016 by GinnyMars

[JaggedLilPill]

They also cut a few scenes. In the promo pics released by the network, the scene from the mid-season premiere when Jack confronts Callie about getting him kicked out of his home, you see Connor. But when it aired, you didn't. 

 

There's no doubt that all the drama that went down between Gavin and Hayden changed the trajectory of their story. I'm pretty sure you would have slowly seen Connor's dad change his mind and become more accepting, leading to Connor coming back from LA.

[possibilities]

Damn. Damn damn damn. Why didn't they just recast? If you can't be a professional, you can't have a job. I guess they thought it would be too much to recast two kids in one season. But damn. Gavin was crying on Instagram?? Ye gods. I really think this show has been on a downward spiral for a while now, all season really, with just a few good breaks of what used to make it shine. And that's such a loss, because I used to think it was the best thing ever, and it made such a difference in the real world, too.

[Jax7917]

I have to disagree with some of the things being said. In regard to Jude, the plot isn't that he suddenly went from gay to straight overnight. The storyline is that he fell for Connor, and was confused about what label to put on it, as he fell in love with the person himself and not just the idea of falling for a guy. After bad things happening to both of his significant others, he's questioning whether or not God is punishing him for liking guys. Even though we all know that's not true that he's being punished, in his young and developing mind, he feels that he is. So now he thinks he should try being with girls to see if he likes it, thus making life easier on him. Sometimes a lot of people forget that he's only 13. He's not a confused adult. He's a confused child.

 

I may be bias because I love Brallie and their love story, but in my opinion the show doesn't have to just stick to one plot line. I too like the lena/steph relationship, but what show has ever just focused on 1 plot line and 2 people in a family? Of course they're gonna create storylines for the kids as well. It wouldn't make sense if they didn't. Lena and Stef's kids happen to be teenagers. With teenagers comes a lot of drama,and relationship problems. Yea, the show does pack those storylines in, however they always keep it interesting. People also keep talking about how it's not realistic to have that many problems in life with all those different story lines. Well when are shows ever realistic? If they were, who would want to watch? TV shows are not gonna have the same amount of drama as real people have in their every day lives, because then what would make it entertaining to watch ?

[Jax7917]

And also, in response to people saying that Jude shouldn't have to do any story line he doesn't want to do, then what kind of actor is he? If he doesn't want to do it, theres millions of others out there who will have no problem with it. Actors should never be able to dictate what script they want and don't want. There's too many other people who would do what they won't do.

[maraleia]

Serious question everyone. Have you noticed a significant drop off in acting ability from Hayden lately? I noticed it about seven episodes ago and I think it's due to the drama his mom is creating on set. I haven't felt Jude's story since the end of 3A last summer and that's sad because Judicorn and Jonnor were the few standout stories among the teens with Mariana's foray into STEM and Callie and Girls United being the other ones IMO. The fact that they blew up Mariana's non-romantic life story lines is so damn sad and why I say they jump from one story to another without a thought to how that will resonate with the viewer.

i had another thought this morning. I feel like one of the reasons why I'm having a hard time with this show is the scenes are way too short for the viewer to get invested in what the characters are doing. I keep on going back to Once and Again and how the developed their stories and characters. I recently watched Lily and Rick's wedding episode and it still made me cry but nothing has made me feel anything about this show during the entire 3B season.

Edited April 3, 2016 by maraleia

[stopeslite]

What with all the drama on the show and the plots and all and how ridiculous they get, I sometimes wonder why I watch this show. I didn't, in fact, watch a lot this season - I kept up with recaps, but I just couldn't bear to watch it play out. I finally watched this one, not realizing it was the cliffhanger before hiatus, and I was reminded of why: it's the little acting moments. When Stef was ranting at the end, the way Lena sharply yelled her name to get her to look at Callie, then the cut to Callie rocking with tears rolling down in the dead silence, almost inaudibly keening, then back to the look on Stef's face when she realized - that sequence was a punch in the gut even more powerful than a minute later when Callie said the accusation was true. That's what keeps me coming back to this show - they don't do big plotlines well at all, but the little moments of character building and payoff are amazing compared to any other show out there. 

 

 

ETA: I was really disappointed, though, that they never really brought out the idea that Jude might be bisexual. It was almost all framed as "not gay any more?" or "only gay for Connor". Bisexual is the most obvious answer to me, so I'm really disappointed that wasn't the angle they pushed.

Edited April 3, 2016 by stopeslite

[MaryHedwig]

Was Taylor a character that had been introduced before? She was not familiar to me.

[ShortyMac]

Was Taylor a character that had been introduced before? She was not familiar to me.

 

Yes, She was friends with Jude and Connor. She first appeared in 02x15 and her last ep before this was 03x01.