S06.E11: Knots Untie

[AngelaHunter]

No, my issue is that Emily Kinney was just a horrible actress, painful to watch.

 

I agree. While it's normal to see people who are not warriors and who work in the background performing dreary but necessary tasks, her acting was one step up from apalling. With someone else playing her part, she would have been much more compelling and sympathetic. She couldn't even manage the most basic things, like appearing to be inebriated after chug-a-lugging moonshine. I really can't believe she's still working.  

[Pete Martell]

I think Emily worked well with certain material. I thought she was good throughout the hospital episodes - for me she believably took Beth over the edge. I didn't really care for the "soft girl grows up" episodes with Daryl. I just thought they were contrived and the relationship with Daryl was prefab. 

[Eric85]

Too bad Beth wasn't played by the girl in that Brooklyn movie. She would've been amazing and is just a couple years older than the Beth character. Anyways this episode was alright, don't know what to make of Abe's bizquick business though.  

[CletusMusashi]

Too bad Coral already knows where babies come from.

A scene in which Abraham explains the bird asses and  bee pancakes to him would have been hilarious.

[lulee]

Birds, bees, and pancakes

[Timetoread]

Too bad Coral already knows where babies come from.

A scene in which Abraham explains the bird asses and  bee pancakes to him would have been hilarious.

 

Carl probably witnessed the making of Judith, since Lori seemed to think that kids sleep through sex in the same tent. 

[AngelaHunter]

don't know what to make of Abe's bizquick business though.

 

It makes you wonder if whoever wrote that ridiculous nonsense ever actually heard men talk.

[Timetoread]

Me too. I also hate the idea that Michonne is a better mom to Carl which implies to me that she loved him more than his own mother. Whatever Lori's faults were, I never got the impression that I was suppose to think she was a bad mother and her love for Carl was somehow inferior. I don't think she was any worst a parent than Rick was/is.

 

I thought Lori was a bad mother but that doesn't mean that I didn't think she loved Carl.  The read I got on Lori and Rick was that Lori tried for years to be what Rick EXPECTED her to be, but that wasn't really her.  Rick wants a woman who plays the part of the little woman and keeps house and raises the kids.  Rick came across in the early years as unassuming and gentle - the good cop to Shane's bad cop.  But I think Rick has always been Rick and it has taken the extremity of the ZA for this guy to come out without his mask.  The point is that I believe that Alpha Dog Rick was ALWAYS the stronger of this trio.  He got his way, period.  Lori wasn't strong enough to fight him and Shane was strong but not enough to beat him.    I say all of this because people think because a woman gets pregnant and has a baby and loves that baby that she is built to be a good mother but she wasn't.  Lori wasn't really a mother type but Rick wanted her to be.  Michonne is a better natural mother - some people just are - and I know she loves Carl.  This doesn't negate Lori - his mother, the mother who opted to give her life for the new baby.  She did the best that she could.  Michonne does not replace his mother but Carl is very, very lucky to have her.

 

 

This is what I was referring to in my post. I see Rick as meantally weak/fragile compared to Michonne. She's seen/been through as much as he has yet we have never seen her have a mental break. Rick's been to crazy town twice now.

 

Rick does stray on the side of cray, but really I think that it is because he is a control freak and a perfectionist.  He wants things to be "just so", but this world is crazy and utterly uncontrollable.  I think it frustrates Rick to always be at the mercy of this world and he is always, always under stress.  Then people turn to him for leadership because of his Alpha aura and the responsibility of it stresses him out more. Michonne is the one person who relieves him of his burdens.  She's got his back literally and figuratively.  She's killed many in his blind spots - meaning that she's saved him time and again.  When he's ready to explode, she lets him know that everything is going to be alright.  When he actually does explode, she puts him in time out and fixes things - usually to the way that he wanted them in the first place.  He usually can't sleep for worry about the kids, but Michonne protects his kids with the same lethality that he has.  She is not a stressor for him, she is a calmer.  But on the flip side, I see what she sees in him as well.  Rick is a beast but it is almost always in the protection of, not harm toward, those that he loves.  And when he is calm, he is giving, loving, and loyal.  She brings out the best in him.  She may not look like Lori but she is a better fit for him than Lori. 

[catrox14]

 

Rick wants a woman who plays the part of the little woman and keeps house and raises the kids

 

Man, do I have a totally opposite read on that.

 

AFAIR, it was LORI who wanted to be the little woman that kept house and stayed at home and did all the traditional woman's work. Please point me to a moment in the show that showed Rick being the kind of man that demanded, manipulated, encouraged insisted upon his wife being in that role. Wasn't Lori the one that made a point of chewing out Andrea about women fulfilling a more 'traditional' role at the Greene Farm? I don't think she did that because Rick was compelling her to stay in that role...like at all.

 

IMO Rick just kind of went along with what Lori wanted. And he did that when they reunited. I don't think he made demands or reinforced that Lori MUST ADHERE to a traditional role or he was going to divorce her or something. Rick was just in love with the girl he met in high school and they happened to fall into those more traditional roles because of their upbringing more than anything not because he couldn't handle any other kind of role for the woman in his life. 

[Timetoread]

Like I said, my read.  Also for the record, I never said that he manipulated or demanded.

[catrox14]

Like I said, my read.  Also for the record, I never said that he manipulated or demanded.

 

 

I know it's your read. I'm just trying to figure out textually or even subtextually how you arrived at that conclusion. Can you give refer me to some scenes in the show because I feel like I must have missed a really big character point for Rick. Not being confrontational but genuinely curious.

[SevenStars]

Man, do I have a totally opposite read on that.

AFAIR, it was LORI who wanted to be the little woman that kept house and stayed at home and did all the traditional woman's work. Please point me to a moment in the show that showed Rick being the kind of man that demanded, manipulated, encouraged insisted upon his wife being in that role. Wasn't Lori the one that made a point of chewing out Andrea about women fulfilling a more 'traditional' role at the Greene Farm? I don't think she did that because Rick was compelling her to stay in that role...like at all.

IMO Rick just kind of went along with what Lori wanted. And he did that when they reunited. I don't think he made demands or reinforced that Lori MUST ADHERE to a traditional role or he was going to divorce her or something. Rick was just in love with the girl he met in high school and they happened to fall into those more traditional roles because of their upbringing more than anything not because he couldn't handle any other kind of role for the woman in his life.

This is how I saw it too. I thought Lori was the one who was set on the traditional role of men and women. Which seems to have been okay with Rick before ZA but when ZA happened, he seems to flipped the script on her and suddenly wanted an equal partner that would advise him and help him make the decisions. And Lori wasn't down with that because I think she wanted things to stay as normal as possible in this abnormal world they find themselves in. She didn't want any more changes. Which is why she got frustrated and annoyed at Rick sometime for looking at her to help him make decisions.

Which is why I think she sided with Shane so much. Because unlike Rick, Shane was willing to keep within the traditional role of men and women. Unlike Rick, he was willing to just make the decisions he thought would keep them safe and keep it moving without discussing it with Lori or anyone else. I think Shane and Lori would have been great together if Rick hadn't show up. Shane wouldn't have gone crazy because he would have the family structure to keep him stable and Lori would have been good because she was with a man who was just willing to do whatever it takes to keep her and Carl safe without asking her to help make the hard decisions.

As for motherhood, I don't think she was a great mother but I don't think she was a bad one either. I think the main problem is that Carl didn't respect her because he didn't see her as being strong and able to protect herself and him. Because of that, he didn't listen to her when she told him to stay put. He didn't follow her instructions as a result. The same thing happened with Rick. When Carl lost respect for him after Lori died and the prison felled, he didn't want to hear anything from Rick. I think if Rick wasn't his father and he didn't love him, Carl would have left him behind after the prison fall. That's how low his respect and esteem for Rick was.

Michonne on the other hand, is someone that he truly respect because of her strength and ability to fight to protect herself and those around him. She also have respect for him as a person. This respect result in him and her opening themselves to each other causing a strong bond between them. A bond that allows them to share their fears with each other.

I think if Lori was alive, she would have a better relationship with Carl but the bond between Carl and Michonne would have still happened.

Edited March 7, 2016 by SevenStars

[Timetoread]

I know it's your read. I'm just trying to figure out textually or even subtextually how you arrived at that conclusion. Can you give refer me to some scenes in the show because I feel like I must have missed a really big character point for Rick. Not being confrontational but genuinely curious.

 

I know you aren't being confrontational.  I just didn't want to argue about it because we are so close to the next episode and honestly I hated Lori.  But to sort of answer you, It's just a read I got on Rick way back in Season 2, not so much by Lori's actions but by Rick's with Shane.  I noticed way back then that whenever Rick straight up confronted Shane, Shane would look down like a child being scolded.  Rick could make Shane cry.  Rick could best Shane in a fight.  In the end, Shane couldn't kill Rick, but Rick went through with it.  I got a vibe that Rick - especially after wasting those two dudes in Nebraska - was the stronger, more forceful one but that aspect of his character simmered under a seemingly serene surface.  Shane wasn't exactly a person that I'd refer to as weak, but Lori was and it occurred to me then that such a woman was no real match for the real Rick.  It made me think that the happy homemaker bit was something that she did because she felt that it was required of her, but she was never really good at it.  She couldn't cook.  She couldn't keep up with Carl. She couldn't get Rick to open up to her.  I don't think Rick was mean or manipulative or demanding, and we know he loved her, I think that he was simply just stronger.

 

Like I said, there was no big smoking gun scene, I'm just a very vibey person and this was the vibe I got - like I said, from Rick more than Lori.  I still get that vibe and immediately sensed the Jessie was all wrong for him.  I also immediately sensed the Michonne was simply perfect for him and once they stop glowering at each other, he might see that.

[NoWillToResist]

For me it was less about a "hell yeah" moment as it was about giving the character back some identity beyond Glenn's wife and mother of his child. They tried to hint at Maggie's strengths last season when she worked for Deanna, but that went nowhere fast, because Deanna ended up being incompetent leader #945. Even then I didn't feel like she was all that prominent, nowhere near as much as others are when they get showcase episodes. It was just a lot more than the crumbs she's been given in the last few seasons.

 

And this is partly why I hated her being their rep so much. For the longest time, Maggie has had no story outside of Glenn. Her being groomed to be Deanna's successor got dropped and then handed to Michonne for some reason. Maggie's story - if you can even call it that - has been Glenn, Glenn, Glenn, baby, Glenn. She was retired from all action for ages. Yet, Glenn gets back and all of a sudden, she's on the A Team and Rick's all "you be our rep for these crucial negotiations here; you've got this!" and I'm all, 'when was the last time Rick even fucking spoke to Maggie?'

 

It just felt like TPTB's way of trying to make Maggie relevant to the general story again. And frankly, for me, it's way too little too late.

 

It didn't help that, via Abraham, it's confirmed that Maggie and Glenn WANTED to get pregnant. In the ZA. When things are still insane. Nope, that just doesn't work for me, sorry. Being swept up in a moment and forgetting protection would have been bad enough but to actively PLAN to get pregnant in such a dire environment? I just...can't. Every time these two look all schmoopily at each other and grin over their impending parenthood, I want to scream. Did they forget what happened to Lori? Jesus Christ.

[CletusMusashi]

I just figured out why Negan's gang have let Gregory live so long.

He grows hemp.

[DEL901]

Just finished rewatching the episode.  Maggie demanded half of everything including 1 cow.  Immediately.  But they all drove off in the RV  Where did they put the supplies?  And what about the cow?  Is it riding on the roof? LOL

[Pete Martell]

And this is partly why I hated her being their rep so much. For the longest time, Maggie has had no story outside of Glenn. Her being groomed to be Deanna's successor got dropped and then handed to Michonne for some reason. Maggie's story - if you can even call it that - has been Glenn, Glenn, Glenn, baby, Glenn. She was retired from all action for ages. Yet, Glenn gets back and all of a sudden, she's on the A Team and Rick's all "you be our rep for these crucial negotiations here; you've got this!" and I'm all, 'when was the last time Rick even fucking spoke to Maggie?'

 

It just felt like TPTB's way of trying to make Maggie relevant to the general story again. And frankly, for me, it's way too little too late.

 

It didn't help that, via Abraham, it's confirmed that Maggie and Glenn WANTED to get pregnant. In the ZA. When things are still insane. Nope, that just doesn't work for me, sorry. Being swept up in a moment and forgetting protection would have been bad enough but to actively PLAN to get pregnant in such a dire environment? I just...can't. Every time these two look all schmoopily at each other and grin over their impending parenthood, I want to scream. Did they forget what happened to Lori? Jesus Christ.

 

If Maggie had only been shown pining for Glenn, I would agree, but she was usually involved in various missions - she went on the disastrous trip to DC, she was involved in Alexandria, etc. It's not so much that Maggie has excluded herself as the show just never let us see what she was doing. I didn't have a tough time imagining that she'd still been active. I just wish the writing had not kept her in such a tiny role.

 

Lori had had a c-section and a difficult delivery with Carl. Maggie had never been pregnant before. While I agree with you that it's risky and kind of dumb, they've both lost so much and tempted fate so many times, I can see why they decided to go for it. I'd imagine Judith miraculously hanging on might have persuaded them as well.

[AngelaHunter]

Maggie's story - if you can even call it that - has been Glenn, Glenn, Glenn, baby, Glenn. She was retired from all action for ages. Yet, Glenn gets back and all of a sudden, she's on the A Team and Rick's all "you be our rep for these crucial negotiations here; you've got this!" and I'm all, 'when was the last time Rick even fucking spoke to Maggie?'

 

Lawdy, yes! Hugging and kissing and crying and love and Glenn, Glenn, Glenn. So damned tedious. Now that you mention it, I don't recall Rick ever speaking to Maggie but I have a bad memory.

 

Maybe with Gregory, Rick could see him mentally undressing Maggie so he decided pimping her out might put the old man off his game.

[NoWillToResist]

If Maggie had only been shown pining for Glenn, I would agree, but she was usually involved in various missions - she went on the disastrous trip to DC, she was involved in Alexandria, etc. It's not so much that Maggie has excluded herself as the show just never let us see what she was doing. I didn't have a tough time imagining that she'd still been active. I just wish the writing had not kept her in such a tiny role.

 

Lori had had a c-section and a difficult delivery with Carl. Maggie had never been pregnant before. While I agree with you that it's risky and kind of dumb, they've both lost so much and tempted fate so many times, I can see why they decided to go for it. I'd imagine Judith miraculously hanging on might have persuaded them as well.

 

I agree that Maggie was an important character who was given stuff to do for quite some time, but IMO that all dried up very quickly once they reached Alexandria. I think the only time she was shown to be actually DOING anything was on her unsuccessful little jaunt through the sewers with Eric (?); the entire point of that mission, unless I'm mistaken, was to try and get out and find Glenn, and during that mission she was shown to suddenly be pretty useless against walkers.

 

I recall that Lori had a difficult first pregnancy (which just makes her carelessness all the more egregious), but who's to say that Maggie won't have similar problems? I know how I'm supposed to feel about Maggie's pregnancy and I know why I'm supposed to feel that way, but I just don't. I think it's utterly ridiculous to try and have a child when food is scarce, danger is omnipresent, and NOISE can be the cause of your death.

[Pete Martell]

I agree that Maggie was an important character who was given stuff to do for quite some time, but IMO that all dried up very quickly once they reached Alexandria. I think the only time she was shown to be actually DOING anything was on her unsuccessful little jaunt through the sewers with Eric (?); the entire point of that mission, unless I'm mistaken, was to try and get out and find Glenn, and during that mission she was shown to suddenly be pretty useless against walkers.

 

I recall that Lori had a difficult first pregnancy (which just makes her carelessness all the more egregious), but who's to say that Maggie won't have similar problems? I know how I'm supposed to feel about Maggie's pregnancy and I know why I'm supposed to feel that way, but I just don't. I think it's utterly ridiculous to try and have a child when food is scarce, danger is omnipresent, and NOISE can be the cause of your death.

 

I don't think they're trying to suggest viewers feel one way or another - I think they've allowed viewers to not see the pregnancy as an ideal (in the mission you mentioned, she was frightened to do too much because she was pregnant; in this past episode, Carol was appalled that she got involved when she's pregnant). I can understand why people would not be happy. I mostly just meant I can see why Maggie and Glenn decided to go for it. It's selfish, but they likely feel they've earned that right.

[NoWillToResist]

I don't think they're trying to suggest viewers feel one way or another - I think they've allowed viewers to not see the pregnancy as an ideal (in the mission you mentioned, she was frightened to do too much because she was pregnant; in this past episode, Carol was appalled that she got involved when she's pregnant). I can understand why people would not be happy. I mostly just meant I can see why Maggie and Glenn decided to go for it. It's selfish, but they likely feel they've earned that right.

 

I feel like the show wants/expects me to be rooting for them. The only remotely negative opinion I've seen (haven't watched yesterday's ep) has come from Abraham. And considering how the show has portrayed him, I feel like his opinion was meant to be overturned. It seemed like he'd come around to their way of thinking when they left Hilltop anyway. So I can't help but feel like I'm supposed to rejoice in Glenn and Maggie's decision to have a child in this clusterfuck. And I just can't.

 

I feel like the pregnancy is a deliberate choice by TPTB for reasons that I don't want to speculate on here. I suspect I will find out soon enough whether my theory is correct. If I am correct, it just makes me angrier...

[Raven1707]

The Live +3 Ratings are in for this episodes:

 

 

Same-day ratings for “The Walking Dead” on Feb. 28 were down vs. its last episode as the show aired opposite the Oscars. But its three-day numbers are virtually identical to the previous week.

 

The show matched its 2.6-point growth in adults 18-49 from the previous week and added slightly more viewers than for the Feb. 21 episode (4.96 million vs. 4.94 million). [Total: 17.758 million viewers]

 

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2016/03/06/cable-live-3-ratings-feb-22-28-walking-dead-has-steady-growth/#

[Iguessnot]

And this is partly why I hated her being their rep so much. For the longest time, Maggie has had no story outside of Glenn. Her being groomed to be Deanna's successor got dropped and then handed to Michonne for some reason. Maggie's story - if you can even call it that - has been Glenn, Glenn, Glenn, baby, Glenn. She was retired from all action for ages. Yet, Glenn gets back and all of a sudden, she's on the A Team and Rick's all "you be our rep for these crucial negotiations here; you've got this!" and I'm all, 'when was the last time Rick even fucking spoke to Maggie?'

 

It just felt like TPTB's way of trying to make Maggie relevant to the general story again. And frankly, for me, it's way too little too late.

 

It didn't help that, via Abraham, it's confirmed that Maggie and Glenn WANTED to get pregnant. In the ZA. When things are still insane. Nope, that just doesn't work for me, sorry. Being swept up in a moment and forgetting protection would have been bad enough but to actively PLAN to get pregnant in such a dire environment? I just...can't. Every time these two look all schmoopily at each other and grin over their impending parenthood, I want to scream. Did they forget what happened to Lori? Jesus Christ.

I'm having a problem with when they decided attempting pregnancy would be good. Before Alexandria, the group was in a feral state, with Rick attempting to feed acorns to Judith. So I'll assume this pregnancy planning was decided in Alexandria, but exactly how long have they been there? Subtract some time in the beginning needed to evaluate the place and then subtract the time after Glenn's run with Nicholas, because Maggie was already pregnant, and I don't see a time frame for such a decision and fruition.