S01.E17: Turn, Turn, Turn

[Actionmage]

Remember: This is repeating tonight in the regular time slot and the NEW episode comes on right after! So we get SHIELD from 7-9 PM Central!

[Llywela]

When Ward and Skye were having their little chat in that closet, I was literally yelling at my TV, "Ain't nobody got time for that!" Seriously, the world is in peril and you're talking about getting a drink and being all schmoopy. Please. Talk later.

See, I thought that conversation was actually very pointed. It came immediately after Hand told Simmons “The worst thing you can do right now is to underestimate HYDRA. They hide in plain sight. They earn our trust, our sympathy. They make us like them.” We cut straight from that line to Ward doing exactly that to Skye - telling her a sob story, playing on her sympathy, making her like him. First time round it seemed all kinds of out of place, but once you know Ward is Hydra...that scene isn't about a potential Skye-Ward romance any more. It's about Ward playing Skye for all he's worth, and succeeding. He plays everyone in this episode, doing exactly what Hand warned Simmons Hydra agents would do, and he succeeds, his cover remains intact for him to use to Hydra's advantage.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Llywela

[HistoryGirl]

See, I thought that conversation was actually very pointed. It came immediately after Hand told Simmons “The worst thing you can do right now is to underestimate HYDRA. They hide in plain sight. They earn our trust, our sympathy. They make us like them.” We cut straight from that line to Ward doing exactly that to Skye - telling her a sob story, playing on her sympathy, making her like him. First time round it seemed all kinds of out of place, but once you know Ward is Hydra...that scene isn't about a potential Skye-Ward romance any more. It's about Ward playing Skye for all he's worth, and succeeding. He plays everyone in this episode, doing exactly what Hand warned Simmons Hydra agents would do, and he succeeds, his cover remains intact for him to use to Hydra's advantage.

You are so right.  Obviously I didn't realize that at the time, but you're right. That's exactly what that fool was playing at. Grrr. Ward is THE WORST. (okay, he's also THE BEST, but I do want to punch him when he's on my TV) 

[ChelseaNH]

 

See, I thought that conversation was actually very pointed.

The problem is that this services the writer's need, but not the character's.

[Sarahastro]

The problem is that this services the writer's need, but not the character's.

 

One problem I have with all of this "it's all connected" stuff is that a lot of the connections are very meta - editing choices that are the creators' way of winking at the fans, but they aren't real clues that the fans could have picked up on. That scene is probably meant as a wink that Ward is Hydra, but when I was watching it, I just rolled my eyes and yelled at the screen, "This is not the time or place to be making a date!" It would have been nice to have seen some real hints that Ward was Hydra - maybe him sneaking around the Bus, listening in on conversations, asking lots of personal questions about the team, seeming extra interested in the tech FitzSimmons were developing. Or perhaps we could have seen flashes of Hydra Ward when he was under stress. It's cute to go back and look for these little editing clues, but they don't add anything to the story.

[Llywela]

One problem I have with all of this "it's all connected" stuff is that a lot of the connections are very meta - editing choices that are the creators' way of winking at the fans, but they aren't real clues that the fans could have picked up on. [...]. It's cute to go back and look for these little editing clues, but they don't add anything to the story.

Oh, I agree. I also think this is a problem that's become endemic in modern television - the writers get so caught up in the idea of hooking a cult fandom who'll engage in major rewatching sessions to look out for clever foreshadowing that they forget the story also has to make sense and hold together first time round, when the audience doesn't already know what's coming. This is a perfect example. The pacing and structure of the storytelling is designed for the long game but at the expense of the immediate story - and, let's face it, of the characters. How many people would have groaned at that scene because they assumed it was taking time out from the crisis to facilitate Skye's budding romance, because it wasn't obvious until much later that it was actually about Ward manipulating Skye? I can see what they were shooting for there, but its very messy, as it has been all along.

[telane]

I think the problem is also that watching tv is no longer about only watching tv. We have all the interviews, cast live-tweeting, facebooking and whatnot. Notice that a lot of SkyeWard romance came from Chloe Bennett liking the idea. I didn't see ANY build-up to SkyeWard on the show, except for the last couple of episodes. People complain that TPTB are forcibly paring up those two actors when there's no chemistry between them. Well, hello! There is no chemistry, because they are NOT being paired up. It's all a ploy. 

And I have to say I like the explanation we got. Gosh, I'd hate it if Ward was all sneaky and shifty-eyed all season. Good deep-cover spy integrates with his target and that's just what he did (not that I know anything about spying, but that's how I imagine it ;)

[Llywela]

I think the problem is also that watching tv is no longer about only watching tv. We have all the interviews, cast live-tweeting, facebooking and whatnot. Notice that a lot of SkyeWard romance came from Chloe Bennett liking the idea. I didn't see ANY build-up to SkyeWard on the show, except for the last couple of episodes. People complain that TPTB are forcibly paring up those two actors when there's no chemistry between them. Well, hello! There is no chemistry, because they are NOT being paired up. It's all a ploy.

Which would be why a lot of people, especially those who dislike Skye anyway, would have groaned when they saw a scene that appeared to be building toward a new romance in the middle of a crisis. I like the angle we've got, now that we know. I don't get the impression that Skye has any real romantic interest in Ward, but he appeared to open himself up to her and that apparent vulnerability softened her heart, whatever she does or doesn't expect to come from it. Mission accomplished, from Ward's point of view. We saw him doing much the same thing to other people throughout the episode - laying on the outrage with May over her spying and then emphasising his sense of betrayal with Coulson and Hand to maneouver himself onto the plane with Garrett. It's clever, once you know what he's doing.

 

But I agree with all those saying that the pacing and build-up has been off all season. I've watched loyally throughout (I'm commenting at UK pace, this episode just aired here), the potential has been there from the start, but I've never felt that it was really gelling. It had the right ingredients, but something about the mix has never been quite right, and the main problem has been the writing.

Edited April 26, 2014 by Llywela

[Sarahastro]

I think the problem is also that watching tv is no longer about only watching tv. We have all the interviews, cast live-tweeting, facebooking and whatnot. Notice that a lot of SkyeWard romance came from Chloe Bennett liking the idea. I didn't see ANY build-up to SkyeWard on the show, except for the last couple of episodes. People complain that TPTB are forcibly paring up those two actors when there's no chemistry between them. Well, hello! There is no chemistry, because they are NOT being paired up. It's all a ploy. 

 

Yeah, I mostly ignore all the cast interviews and tweeting, but that might be because I'm old by twitter and tumblr standards. I definitely saw more of the big brother-little sister vibe between them up until she was shot. That post-shooting scene between them in the med pod was IMO painfully awkward, like a high school cheerleader giggling over the captain of the football team. But it becomes more interesting if you consider that he was just trying to get close to her because she had just injected with that alien goop, and Garrett wanted Ward to figure out what it was.

 

And I have to say I like the explanation we got. Gosh, I'd hate it if Ward was all sneaky and shifty-eyed all season. Good deep-cover spy integrates with his target and that's just what he did (not that I know anything about spying, but that's how I imagine it ;)

 

Being sneaky and shifty-eyed is not what I'm talking about. I was thinking about more stuff like his conversation with Coulson in The Bridge. At the time you think he and Coulson are just bonding, but in retrospect, he's obviously trying to get personal information about Coulson to use against him. For example, we could have seen him asking FitzSimmons about their research in a way that initially seems friendly, but later takes on a "holy crap, he was gathering intel on them" kind of vibe. I know other people really liked the Ward character, but for me personally he was just so bland and boring, the only emotion I felt about his betrayal was excitement that he was finally doing something interesting. I don't know what they could have done to make me care, but I'm guessing that the writers were hoping that I would feel something besides, "Hell yeah, Ward is finally cool." Perhaps we could have gotten a little more background on Ward, more information about his family, his relationship with Garrett, or some comments about his past behavior that led Maria Hill to describing him as "a poop with knives sticking out of it." Just something so that I actually cared that he turned out to be Hydra.

[KirkB]

Yeah, I think it's telling that the big reaction after the big reveal wasn't "Holy $^$*, Ward is Hydra!" but rather "Oh look, Ward is kind of interesting now."

[myril]

It's maybe telling that some people where wondering if or hoping that Ward is deep undercover triple agent for the sake of keeping Agent Hand alive and around and not for Ward being somehow still on the good side. Hand was in this show like maybe 5 minutes and looked more interesting as character to me, with more (palpable) potential character dimensions than Ward, who I saw pretty much as just another grumpy, lonesome cowboy with terrible childhood muscle hero guy more or less charming the ladies. As much as I dislike that Hand was sacrificed, I prefer an evil Ward and root for him staying evil for quite a while.

 

When watching the scene in the closet, part of my mind was writing it off as cliched knight romances his lady moment ("I will make the sacrifice, I deserve to" blablabla), while another part was saying out loud: what is Ward up to? And next: They are in the closet! Closet, like to have skeletons in the closet, like hidden shocking secrets... Weird mind. But I agree, it was a weird scene, which for some not even in hindsight might suggest, that Ward was only toying with Skye (for a moment at least), and still it is an ambiguous moment between them.

 

Even though with the changes brought by the movie and this episode some of the things, that had felt so out of place over two-thirds of the season, now are falling into place, and the plot became more interesting, that doesn't change, that character development on the show was rather flat. And it didn't change much with this episode, if at all, and for no character, not even for Ward. There is plenty of reason to see different dimensions for the characters, but I don't feel it. Feel first, think later - a formula that worked quite well for Hollywood and for TV for decades (some find European film making sometimes too intellectual, assuming it's think first there, and I agree somewhat, but the best of European film making works with a similar formula: feel first, think later, think again). This show just doesn't really make me feel the dimensions of the main characters.

Edited April 27, 2014 by katusch

[John Potts]

Well that was certainly exciting! Even though I had seen The Winter Soldier, I wasn't expecting the team to have a traitor in it (even if it turns out that Ward is in fact "going undercover" and isn't really a traitor). I also don't buy that Victoria Hand is dead - she was gut shot which is TV code for "totally coming back" (however unrealistic that might be), though that's really sloppy of HYDRA not to make sure of the kill ("Two in the head and then they're dead!" as my daddy taught me*). Not that SHIELD is doing much better - when Triplett made his "Death before Dishonour!" stand, Hand accepts that because Simmons was in the same room, obviously she must be with him (and SHIELD wonders how it got so thoroughly infiltrated). At least she was no worse than Fitz, who was pretty much "The Chick" in the big fight, though he did get off one important shot.

 

OttoDBusDriver Should we take bets now on who either mentions The Byrds or states that "To Everything There is a Season"?

 

 

Or, you know, The Bible (Ecclesiasticles Ch 3, to be precise).

 

Sheena - I quite liked the "You have to believe me!" "No, I don't" bit because every time someone says the former in a book, movie or TV show, I'm always like "Pfft- no, they don't!"

 

 

It’s like “This is going to sound crazy, but…” doesn’t make it sound any less crazy!

 

ChelseaNH So the lack of character development wasn't a bug, it was a feature...

 

 

What is that a quote from?

 

* OK, he didn't really!

Edited April 27, 2014 by John Potts

[James Moar]

"What is that a quote from?"

It's a computer science mock-excuse.

[Sarahastro]

It's maybe telling that some people where wondering if or hoping that Ward is deep undercover triple agent for the sake of keeping Agent Hand alive and around and not for Ward being somehow still on the good side.

 

That actually depends on what fans you ask. There are plenty of fans on tumblr who continue to insist that Ward is a good guy. But I agree with you.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Sarahastro

[Kromm]

There are plenty of fans of tumblr who continue to insist that Ward is a good guy. But I agree with you.

I'm sure Agent Patton Oswalt would totally agree!

[KirkB]

I don't see anyway Ward can be a double agent. Not with what he's done. Nor would I buy a redemption, whether by his love for Skye or otherwise. In fact at this point, I'm not sure I see any way they can redeem him. They've had Ward do enough seriously bad stuff now (killing Hand, all the guys at the Fridge, Koenig) that even being mind controlled and coming back from it would be a hard sell. In comics, sure, people can wipe out cities and come back to their teams with little problem, but there is a big chunk of AoS's audience that doesn't read comics and will have a completely different mindset. Now, I imagine that's exactly what they're going to do, but personally the only thing I would really accept at this point is Ward being a straight up villain and an adversary for the team.

Edited April 28, 2014 by KirkB

[webruce]

Finally saw it. Was trying to catch it on Hulu, but they mess up the seasons there. So am binging on Netflix.

I don't know what to think about Grant Ward being Hydra really. Yes Garrett was his SO but he didn't always look happy. They kept talking about how you not show emotion and I wonder if it is to fool Hydra too. Also as they headed to the "Fridge", (Not the Hand was killed fridge, but the facility)to get some toys, I think Ward was thinking when Garrett was telling about another old mission. Not sure what about though.

I thought Hand was annoying but didn't expect her to be shot. i did like her test of Tripplett and Simmons.

Didn't like how the Bus was all shot up.

I know Coulson didn't know if he could trust May but he did seem to be a bit harsh on her. Maybe it is a ploy?