S11.E14: The Vessel

[Diane]

I hope this doesn't end up forcing the boys out of the bunker. If Lucifer can get past any sigils with that spell, they'd be sitting ducks if they stayed put.

I wouldn't mind it for a little while if it meant we would get a few great tripy motel rooms.

[catrox14]

I hope this doesn't end up forcing the boys out of the bunker. If Lucifer can get past any sigils with that spell, they'd be sitting ducks if they stayed put.

 

 

Was that sigil solely to keep out Lucifer or any angel? If it's any angel then they might not ward it because that means Cas would not have a safe place to return if he needs one.

[Aeryn13]

Not sure how to feel about this one. I did expect more from it. We haven`t gotten a "Dean"-episode so far this Season and for some reason, I thought this was gonna be it. Instead I would say it was more guest-star-heavy in the flashbacks and Casifer-focused in present time.

 

The very construct of the time travel here meant Dean was only gonna be, as he said, a witness. He didn`t really interact in a more dynamic way with happenings back then, like in "In the Beginning" or "Frontierland". I thought Delphine was a very good character and the entire crew was quite heroic but it felt more or less like their story. Not an uninteresting one at all but with Dean just as a visitor in it.

 

The Hand not working (maybe only not not or maybe not ever again) was also a given since it`s only episode 14 and not 21. So Dean technically succeeded in his mission but it felt pointless in hindsight since nothing came from it anyway. The episode more or less treaded water when it comes to the arc.

 

I guess my enjoyment will depend on if this was all foreshadowing for Dean sitting things out, as a "witness", as the "least valuable player", as the one on the sidelines. Or if he actually gets a valid, active role later on, not just emo.

 

Now I did like Casifer not going after Sam for vesseldom. That was actually a nice little surprise.

 

And the cat is out of the bag so that is something.

 

In the end, the episode wasn`t bad but it was the first one I had been looking forward to since maybe episode 5. And in that regard, it was kinda a letdown.  

[catrox14]

Okay, I'm confused.

 

If Lucifer couldn't get onto the sub the first time, how could he get on the second time?  Did Dean or Delphine alter the sigil on the boat ?

 

sidebar: A boat is a submarine in submariner slang. I come by this knowledge honestly having dated 2 submariners and being good friends with another one. These are a different breed of cat that's for sure! Some of the strangest funniest yet dedicated people I have ever known. I think you'd have to be a little out there to float around under the ocean for literally months at a time without surfacing.  What a strange existence. 

Edited February 18, 2016 by catrox14

[Omegamom]

Delphine did something with the Hand of God, and Lucifer had the spell to break through the wards. Either, I think, was sufficient.

[catrox14]

Also, I didn't mention this before but I think my favorite acting of the episode was Dean on the boat with Delphine when she said "You're a Man of Letters so I trust you" basically.

 

His face broke my heart. It was like a combination of 'yeah well fat lot of good it's doing me now' but he was also touched that she trusted him but you could see he still felt useless and I think that all ties back to Amara

 

But that wry little sad half- smile was....ugh... too much.
 

Edited February 18, 2016 by catrox14

[cassandle]

Okay, I'm confused.

 

If Lucifer couldn't get onto the sub the first time, how could he get on the second time?  Did Dean or Delphine alter the sigil on the boat ?

 

I think it was either Delphine killing herself with the Hand of God and getting rid of the last sigil on her shoulder or Lucifer got his spell to work.  But everything happened so fast I'm not entirely sure. 

 

ETA: Omegamom beat me to it :)

Edited February 18, 2016 by cassandle

[dragonsbite]

We know that Dean's very good at remembering sigils after seeing them only once. So I would hope that he'll think to use the sigil from Delphine's chest in combo with the Hand of God. Or at the very least tell Sam about his experience on the submarine, then Sam can figure it out. 

 

I'm not vested in whether Sam or Dean gets to destroy Amara, but I'm betting it's Dean.  He's most likely to get close to her with the HoG.

[AwesomO4000]

Okay, I'm confused.

 

If Lucifer couldn't get onto the sub the first time, how could he get on the second time?  Did Dean or Delphine alter the sigil on the boat ?

 

Since everyone else beat me to it, I'll just leave part of this which has some questions of mine...

 

That archangel spell seems like a dumb spell to have around except for if you were an archangel, but in another way, I could see the point for the archangel and/or God because He theoretically could want a way for his soldiers (archangels) to counteract some big bad who could use a measly sigil to keep angels out, but I digress. And I guess it was also a less dumb spell when there were more archangels around - i.e. theoretically one could pray to one of those archangels and see if you could convince them to help you. (The spell maker likely didn't know what a jerk most of those archangels were.) Sam gave up because he thought there weren't any more archangels available, otherwise he might've tried.

 

...But long story short, Casifer did do the spell - I'm not going to ask where he got the brain, and hopefully it wasn't from a live donor - and that's how he got onto the boat the second time to get Dean... or more precisely in his case, to get the Hand of God. Which in a way, I'm kind of glad it didn't work more than once, because even if Lucifer did get rid of Amara with it, what would then stop him from using it to do other stuff, even if Castiel did reject him eventually? He could grab another vessel somewhere after stashing the thing and then wreak all sorts of havoc with it.

 

Oh, also imagine how bad Dean or Sam or whoever would've felt if they took the thing out early to test it to see how it worked, practice, etc. before the big battle or maybe had to defend themselves from a first attack by other Amara forces and then wah wah wah, that's when they learned that it was a one time thing and now they were screwed. Probably better they found that our earlier rather than later in some ways actually.

 

Now I did like Casifer not going after Sam for vesseldom. That was actually a nice little surprise.

 

I pretty much knew that part already. I theorized back after the cage episode that Lucifer would have no reason to use Sam as a vessel when Castiel was a much more powerful one. Sam theoretically doesn't even have demon blood from Azazel anymore, so he's pretty much just human whereas Castiel is an angel... and also more receptive. Lucifer can convince Castiel likely much more easily than he can Sam who pretty much knows what Lucifer is about after spending so much quality time with him.*

 

Sam played his part in that scenario by being the dupe and going to the cage to begin with, and since Dean is the "bait," as Lucifer says, as far as he is concerned Sam is expendable. So no longer any special Lucifer association for Sam there at all. Pretty much what I expected.

 

* Not that I entirely buy this new "angels can be rejected any time" wrinkle that Carver has introduced, because no one is going to convince me that the Sam who said yes with that look on his face in the middle of "Swan Song" wouldn't have rejected Lucifer immediately once he couldn't throw him into that first hole. The whole brew-ha-ha at that time was that Lucifer was most dangerous when he had a proper vessel, so if all Sam had to do was reject Lucifer and make him vessel-less so Michael in Adam could defeat him, then that plan would've been relatively simple. Once Sam started fighting Lucifer - as Lucifer said that Sam was - shouldn't Lucifer have been rejected from Sam?

 

My fanwank is that the human host can be tricked - like the false memories that Gadreel put Sam into - or forceably locked away in their own mind if the angel is strong enough. Otherwise all the previous stuff just doesn't make much sense. In other words, I think the human host must have to at least fight for control of their own body once they've given consent, otherwise it would be too easy to get angels out and no one would be a meatsuit for any of these angel battles, etc. that went on.

 

Unless the explanation is that this is because the angels fell and now the rules are different and angels just aren't as strong (and so can be ejected more easily). But that still doesn't explain the human hosts just sitting back and letting their bodies be used for all of those petty angel wars that happened after the fall. Most of those people should've said enough is enough after the first petty fight and rejected those angel asses.

Edited February 18, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[NoWillToResist]

Well, I finally watched an entire episode of SPN. This hasn't happened in...wow...a year or so?

 

Cas was fighting back against Lucifer to save Sam.  Then he had to use Lucifer to get Dean out of the sub because Cas cannot time travel anymore because of his wings being fried. 

 

IMO Cas won't evict Lucifer unless he knows that Lucifer is going somewhere that he cannot harm humanity. The Cage is the first choice but with Rowena dead, who else can open the cage? 

 

I'm intrigued by the notion that ejecting your invited angel guest is easier than wresting away control over your own body from them for a short period of time.

 

Regardless, if Cas can regain control to save Sam's life, I have no doubt that he will be able to put up even more of a fight against Lucifer if Dean's life is on the line.

 

What worries me is that if/when the Darkness is defeated, Cas will keep Lucifer inside and, rather than try to trap Lucifer, they'll hatch a plan for Dean to host Michael and finally kill Lucifer (by killing Cas when Lucifer is in him). I really hope that's not what all this "letting people die for the greater good" theme is leaning towards!

 

Delphine *said* she was going to give the Americans their first German sub sinking, but I'm not sure if that was her motivation for using the weapon (and if so, WHY???) or if that was just going to be a nice by-product of her using the HOG to remove the sigil.

 

But in order to save Dean and get the HOG off the sub, she just needed to die, no? So, if Dean couldn't do it, couldn't she have either asked someone else or, I dunno, fucking done it herself? It seemed like a massive waste of that weapon to use it to remove the sigil from her body. Even if it was (is?) a multi-use weapon (i.e. maybe it just doesn't work for Lucifer), it seemed like a dumb choice.

 

When Casifer was bemoaning having to work with the boys, I couldn't help but feel like there was subtext re: Jared and Jensen always fucking with Misha. :)

[Ferniesfreckles]

Dean should remember the sigil that Delphine used on the sub.

 

Luci could not get in. 

 

i would hate if the boys had to leave the bunker or worse, if it was destroyed. There is so, so much history and resources there it would be a disaster if they lost it. 

[catrox14]

 

I'm intrigued by the notion that ejecting your invited angel guest is easier than wresting away control over your own body from them for a short period of time.

 

I think it works because an angel requires consent to stay in the vessel.  In the case of a human, the angel can lock away the memory of the angel IMO like Gadreel did, but I'll bet an angel cannot fully lock away the memory and strength of another angel.

 

The question I have is whether Lucifer can leave on his own if Cas doesn't want him to leave.  Like maybe the battle is not to kick Lucifer out but to keep Lucifer contained within Cas and Cas is fighting his own desire to evict him.  Like when he stayed in Purgatory of his own volition. 

[auntvi]

I'm not going to ask where he got the brain, and hopefully it wasn't from a live donor

 

 

Sam said that he had everything for the spell, except an archangel. I wonder if there's a storage room in the bunker full of body parts of various species. Probably . . .

[forum4idiots]

tehnically, the spell did not work.  sam didn't know what the sigil was.  they only know it warded off angels so the spell was to get pass an ordinary sigil.  only dean knows what the sigil did, how it works, and that it's connected to the life of the person.  note that at the end, they had to zoom on the sigil being burned off her body before casfer, the fucked up ghost, appeared.  kudos to the writers for thinking that far ahead.

 

who knew the the bunker would have a brain laying around sowmehwere lol.

 

as for the cas body thing....technically, both cas and lucy are fighting over a dead body.  cas was the former owner of the body and as he mentioned, the owner is already dead so he has sole possession. .......like a permanent tenant.  but he invited a roommate and the room mate is on sterroids.  cas did not invite lucy to use him, he invited lucy to take over the dead body cause technically, cas is also an angel with no real body......still, shouldn't this still go back to the whole premise that only certain people can be a vessel for an archangel?  so at some point, cas's vessel will reject lucy and make it all gooey and bloody?

Edited February 19, 2016 by lovebug1975

[DittyDotDot]

Welp, I had no expectations going in--other than minor spoilers, I've stayed away from all the previews and interviews for weeks now--but somehow I still feel like it didn't live up to expectations. To me, this episode felt like an unfinished thought...yeah, I'm not sure what that means either, sue me!

 

In other news: seems a bit incredulous this submarine crew would just let Dean wander around the boat like that. I mean, they're on a submarine at wartime and a random dude just appears...::shrugs::

 

However, I think the art department built another beautiful set, though. I have no idea how historically accurate it was, but it was pretty to look at while it lasted.

 

 

make your free throws Supernatural.

 

Amen! They're free points, for Chuck's sake! ;)

 

 

I wouldn't mind it for a little while if it meant we would get a few great tripy motel rooms.

 

From your keyboard to Chuck's ears...please!

Edited February 19, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

 

In other news: seems a bit incredulous this submarine crew would just let Dean wander around the boat like that. I mean, they're on a submarine at wartime and a random dude just appears...::shrugs::

 

Dean was not wandering around for any length of time.

 

He hid under a bunk for a long time, until he jumped the one guy and took his clothes.  He was discovered right away, taken into custody and held in the galley at gunpoint by two sailors, Delphine, and the captain. He was searched by the cook and they confiscated his phone. Then all hell broke loose on the ship with the German ship tracking them. He spilled his story almost immediately. He was never left alone. He was with Delphine, and the younger sailor who had a gun. 

 

I thought they handled that part pretty well.

Edited February 19, 2016 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

Whether or not he was escorted, they allowed someone they knew nothing about access to their command center in a time of war. He could be a spy for all they know. At the very least they had to think he was insane. But instead of isolating him--don't they have a brig of some sort--they basically let him hang out and make "plans" with a mysterious woman they know nothing about either. Sorry, I just found the demeanor of those soldiers to be rather unbelievably laid-back for this era and whole scenario to be extremely incredulous. But, that's not really anything new with this show, hence the shrugging.

[bethy]

I don't know anything about military dress from the WWII era other than what I've seen in the movies, but all those guys on the sub with their beards and floppy hair seemed a little out of place to me.

 

Maybe the Hand of God will recharge or something. I was hoping that it was a case of "So, it turns out the hand of GOD won't actually obey or work for Lucifer. Who'd'a thunk it?" but Dean was holding the thing on the dock, so.... And I guess they couldn't just have it explode Lucifer like that Ark did the Nazis in Raiders, but that would have been cool, too. I was surprised it took so long for the Raiders reference, honestly.

 

I really liked seeing the boys working together.

[AwesomO4000]

tehnically, the spell did not work.  sam didn't know what the sigil was.  they only know it warded off angels so the spell was to get pass an ordinary sigil.  only dean knows what the sigil did, how it works, and that it's connected to the life of the person.  note that at the end, they had to zoom on the sigil being burned off her body before casfer, the fucked up ghost, appeared.  kudos to the writers for thinking that far ahead.

You could be right about that. I thought that Sam read that the spell could be used against any magic sigils, but I could be remembering that incorrectly since I haven't rewatched it yet... (I watched American Crime after Supernatural last night, and that show, I swear... I couldn't focus on watching the SPN episode again then. I only lurk on the PTV board for that show, but I can't think of many other shows where the viewers ask on the episode thread if everyone is okay... and some of them answer "no.")

 

So you could be correct on that - as I said... my brain was messed up for American Crime reasons.

 

as for the cas body thing....technically, both cas and lucy are fighting over a dead body.  cas was the former owner of the body and as he mentioned, the owner is already dead so he has sole possession. .......like a permanent tenant.  but he invited a roommate and the room mate is on sterroids.  cas did not invite lucy to use him, he invited lucy to take over the dead body cause technically, cas is also an angel with no real body......still, shouldn't this still go back to the whole premise that only certain people can be a vessel for an archangel?  so at some point, cas's vessel will reject lucy and make it all gooey and bloody?

 

I don't really know. As I said over in the "What?!?" thread, Castiel's vessel walked around for weeks, maybe a month or more with millions of souls of monsters and leviathan in there without exploding and only minor surface damage, so I think it's pretty strong in general. Nick, too, lasted quite a while with Lucifer inside him, and even though he had the signs of damage, it took a while to get to that point, and he still lasted the whole season without exploding or major damage. If Lucifer needs to, he can start drinking demon blood to stave off any gooeyness for a while.

[catrox14]

Whether or not he was escorted, they allowed someone they knew nothing about access to their command center in a time of war. He could be a spy for all they know. At the very least they had to think he was insane. But instead of isolating him--don't they have a brig of some sort--they basically let him hang out and make "plans" with a mysterious woman they know nothing about either. Sorry, I just found the demeanor of those soldiers to be rather unbelievably laid-back for this era and whole scenario to be extremely incredulous. But, that's not really anything new with this show, hence the shrugging.

 

I doubt they have actual brigs on submarines. That's space they would normally never need. That's why they used the galley and kept Dean away from the rest of the crew. There was pretty much nothing he was going to be able to do that wouldn't have gotten him shot. They had the upper hand.  The sailor that was holding him captive read science fiction and believed his story. Delphine was already aboard so I think they were inclined to strange things.

 

As to the beards and casual attire, these guys are on submarines for months at a time without surfacing. They don't adhere to hard standards about facial hair when they are underway as in under the sea miles deep. (I can confirm this from the submariners I have known. I saw pics of the people I knew in full beard when normally on land they don't do that.

 

Robert Berens actually was asked about that on Twitter

 

Linda Howard ‏@quillichor Feb 17

    @robertberens Bobo, why have they put a man on there with a beard?! Totally wrong for the time period- especially in the armed services!

    2 retweets 2 likes

Bobo Berens ‏@robertberens

.@quillichor actually submariners got shaggy even in WW2-- hygiene grooming options/facilities limited-- it was discussed :) #Supernatural

 

 

as for the cas body thing....technically, both cas and lucy are fighting over a dead body.  cas was the former owner of the body and as he mentioned, the owner is already dead so he has sole possession. .......like a permanent tenant.  but he invited a roommate and the room mate is on sterroids.  cas did not invite lucy to use him, he invited lucy to take over the dead body cause technically, cas is also an angel with no real body......still, shouldn't this still go back to the whole premise that only certain people can be a vessel for an archangel?  so at some point, cas's vessel will reject lucy and make it all gooey and bloody?

 

It's more than Cas being a permanent tenant. That body IS Cas now. I don't think Cas is separate anymore. His grace can be removed and he'll die. That doesn't happen to other angels because they have vessels.  Cas is his own vessel now.

Edited February 19, 2016 by catrox14

[catrox14]

 

Bobo Berens ‏@robertberens Feb 17

And then @JensenAckles bringing incredible bigscreen gravitas and emotion at the end-- and doing it every week. #Supernatural

 

I just wanted to post this tweet from Berens about Jensen.  I swear this is the best compliment to pay to Jensen's work.  /wibbly chin

Edited February 19, 2016 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

I doubt they have actual brigs on submarines. That's space they would normally never need. That's why they used the galley and kept Dean away from the rest of the crew. There was pretty much nothing he was going to be able to do that wouldn't have gotten him shot. They had the upper hand.  The sailor that was holding him captive read science fiction and believed his story. Delphine was already aboard so I think they were inclined to strange things.

 

I'm glad it worked for you catrox, but it just doesn't for me. Whether they thought they had the upper hand or not, this just doesn't seem like reasonable behavior for WWII submariners who just found a random guy lurking about their submarine, IMO. Those sailors were far too nonchalant about...well just about everything and lacking in military structure I needed to see for me to buy into the premise.

 

Sorry if my not buying offends, but there it is.

 

As to the beards: I really wasn't that pulsed by them, myself, but this was a time when there was a fairly rigid adherence to a certain standard. Whether it's totally accurate or not, It might have actually helped me feel the military influence better if they had been clean-shaven. I guess I just didn't feel the mood was sufficiently set for me in this one.

Edited February 19, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

 

I'm glad it worked for you catrox, but it just doesn't for me. Whether they thought they had the upper hand or not, this just doesn't seem like reasonable behavior for WWII submariners who just found a random guy lurking about their submarine, IMO. Those sailors were far too nonchalant about...well just about everything and lacking in military structure I needed to see for me to buy into the premise.

 

I'm not offended.  We all enjoy things differently. And I'm not trying to change your mind. Sorry if my replies made you feel that way. Not my intention at all. Just discussing why I didn't find it unreasonable

Edited February 19, 2016 by catrox14

[BlueMeanie]

I thought the episode was okay, didn't love it, didn't hate it.  There were some things I found confusing.

 

Dean's search for coffee was amusing.  The look on his face after he tried to drink from the empty cup.

 

I'm really enjoying Misha's portrayal of Lucifer.  I thought it was way over the top in the first episode, but now that he's dialed it back I find it quite entertaining and impressive.  I'm probably one of the few people who generally prefers episodes that don't include Cas, or Crowley for that matter, but this has been fun.  If they have to kill Cas in order to stop Lucifer at some point, I would be okay with that.

 

I love how much Lucifer hated working with Sam, complete with eye rolls.

 

Regarding whether Cas could eject Lucifer, Cas told Sam that he couldn't because it was taking all of his power just to keep him from killing Sam, so I don't think he is strong enough and he didn't want to anyway because they needed Lucifer to save Dean.  

 

What I don't get is what happened between Cas talking to Sam and Lucifer rescuing Dean.  Lucifer couldn't kill Sam because Cas was stopping him, so then what, Cas let Lucifer take back control and Lucifer just forgot about killing Sam and went to rescue Dean?  Lucifer obviously doesn't care if Sam dies because he doesn't need him anymore, but he didn't want Dean to die because he wanted to use him as bait to trap Amara.  Since he wasn't able to kill Sam though, his cover was blown and he couldn't keep up the ruse with Dean and therefore couldn't use Dean like he planned.  So why didn't he just take the Hand of God and leave Dean on the sub?  Was he still planning to use Dean somehow?  He looked like he was ready to kill Dean at the end just before Sam used the sigil.  Also did he ever actually use the spell?  That wasn't clear because all the sigils were gone when Lucifer got onto the sub.  I'm confused.

 

I'm really feeling bad for Dean, he seems so broken.  Jensen is really knocking it out of the park, especially in the ending scenes of the last two episodes.  Loved the little hint of a smirk when he found out that the German boat went down, and since it burned I assume that means the Thule were destroyed.

 

I agree with those who think the Hand of God may come into play again later, maybe as has been said, it just needs to be used in conjunction with the sigil.

[SueB]

What I don't get is what happened between Cas talking to Sam and Lucifer rescuing Dean. Lucifer couldn't kill Sam because Cas was stopping him, so then what, Cas let Lucifer take back control and Lucifer just forgot about killing Sam and went to rescue Dean? Lucifer obviously doesn't care if Sam dies because he doesn't need him anymore, but he didn't want Dean to die because he wanted to use him as bait to trap Amara. Since he wasn't able to kill Sam though, his cover was blown and he couldn't keep up the ruse with Dean and therefore couldn't use Dean like he planned. So why didn't he just take the Hand of God and leave Dean on the sub? Was he still planning to use Dean somehow? He looked like he was ready to kill Dean at the end just before Sam used the sigil. Also did he ever actually use the spell? That wasn't clear because all the sigils were gone when Lucifer got onto the sub. I'm confused.

I don't think Casifer used the spell because:

1) You could clearly see that when Delphine went all glowy, the Sigil on her chest went poof and Then Cas appeared. I'm pretty sure the power of the God Hand 'purified' her blood from the magic.

2) the ingredients (including brain) were sitting in the table when they got back to the bunker.

It was not in Lucifer's best interest to kill Dean until:

1) he figured out if there was any trick to making the God Hand work. He didn't know it was out of juice until he got to the bunker. As far as Luci knew, Dean might have useful Intel.

2) without a God Hand weapon, then he's back to Dean being potentially useful (why he kept up the charade in the first place).

Now that Dean knows he's not Cas, I think Luci was happy to kill both brothers because:

1) he probably doesn't expect Dean to help him

2) he really can't stand them

3) he was pissed and maybe was about to do something rash (like kill the only tiny advantage he might be able to exploit). Being petulant and doing something rash seems intrinsic to Luci's character.

Edited February 19, 2016 by SueB

[Babblesmuch]

(Pardon my tardiness) Re: how Luci got on the sub in the end.

I thought we saw Delphine scratch away a little bit of the sigil on the wall. Before the activation of the Hand of God, she was underneath a bunk and used her knife and scratched a little. Did that affect things too? Or was that related purely to the activation of the HoG?

(I didn't think Luci actually *finished* that spell, did he?)

Edited for general grammatical weirdness.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Babblesmuch

[SueB]

as for the cas body thing....technically, both cas and lucy are fighting over a dead body. cas was the former owner of the body and as he mentioned, the owner is already dead so he has sole possession. .......like a permanent tenant. but he invited a roommate and the room mate is on sterroids. cas did not invite lucy to use him, he invited lucy to take over the dead body cause technically, cas is also an angel with no real body......still, shouldn't this still go back to the whole premise that only certain people can be a vessel for an archangel? so at some point, cas's vessel will reject lucy and make it all gooey and bloody?

I don't think so. Jimmy was atomized (which is when he died per S10 Thinfs They Left Behind) by Raphael and God gave Cas a human body to inhabit. That was atomized by Luci and God gave Cas yet another new body. Then That new body went splat once more (via Leviathans) and God gave Cas yet another new body. Since Cas was physically alive after his grace was removed by Metatron in Sacrifice, I think that makes it unambiguous that Gos has been giving Cas a live unique human body that looks like the vessel he first inhabited.

I'm pretty sure, especially since God has given this body to Cas 3 times, the body belongs to Cas.

OTOH, it's left open for debate if Cas can actually eject an archangel. S1-5 lore suggests Sam was able to do so because Lucifer was overwhelmed by the strength of love the Winchesters have while still smarting from being rejected again by Micheal. Cas' love for Sam helped him temporarily wrestle control (like Sam did) but it was clearly a struggle.

I think we are meant to believe that Archangels are tough to evict.

ETA. I think it's also a possibility that Cas, as an angel, has a sulus advantage compared to humans with souls. The Team Apocalyose Angels were pissed that God placed the humans ABOVE Angels. He told them their job was to protect humans. And rules still existed that Angels had to ask permission. And if you think about it, Sam never actually tried to eject Luci. He wanted to ride him into the pit. But Cas is NOT human. He's never had a soul. He's a lesser form of Angel compared to Luci. So he may not get the same protections humans have. Although Cas DID have to say yes, revoking may be more difficult.

Edited February 19, 2016 by SueB

[catrox14]

Is Cas a lesser angel now? I'm not sure that's the case since he is his own meatsuit now.  Even archangels don't have that.

[SueB]

Before the fall he was a Seraph. That's very high on the celestial ranking but still below Archangel. I meant 'lesser' relative to Archangel, not in absolute terms (like cherubs in SPN)

[Demented Daisy]

The Navy allowed beards until 1984.  (ETA  http://news.usni.org/2014/10/23/brief-history-grooming-u-s-navy-- the link to prove it.  This is why they need a damn researcher.  They wouldn't have to "discuss" if they took two seconds to look up the regs.)

 

Oh, look, Carver and Co. are throwing things at the wall to see what sticks again.  What a dull episode.  It would have been much more interesting, IMO, if they had actually gotten a weapon to use and they devoted the next few episodes to figuring out how to use it.

 

I suppose it's interpretation at the moment, perhaps a bit of a misdirect, but I'd be surprised if they used the Hand of God against Amara.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[NoWillToResist]

tehnically, the spell did not work.  sam didn't know what the sigil was.  they only know it warded off angels so the spell was to get pass an ordinary sigil.  only dean knows what the sigil did, how it works, and that it's connected to the life of the person.  note that at the end, they had to zoom on the sigil being burned off her body before casfer, the fucked up ghost, appeared.  kudos to the writers for thinking that far ahead.

 

 

What I don't get is what happened between Cas talking to Sam and Lucifer rescuing Dean.  Lucifer couldn't kill Sam because Cas was stopping him, so then what, Cas let Lucifer take back control and Lucifer just forgot about killing Sam and went to rescue Dean?  Lucifer obviously doesn't care if Sam dies because he doesn't need him anymore, but he didn't want Dean to die because he wanted to use him as bait to trap Amara.  Since he wasn't able to kill Sam though, his cover was blown and he couldn't keep up the ruse with Dean and therefore couldn't use Dean like he planned.  So why didn't he just take the Hand of God and leave Dean on the sub?  Was he still planning to use Dean somehow?  He looked like he was ready to kill Dean at the end just before Sam used the sigil.  Also did he ever actually use the spell?  That wasn't clear because all the sigils were gone when Lucifer got onto the sub.  I'm confused.

 

 

Well, I believe the spell Sam found was supposed to counteract any angel banishing spell, but then Delphine (IIRC) told Dean that her mark/sigil was not commonly known...but then again, she was a woman of letters, so since the anti-sigil spell was found in their books, perhaps it would work on Delphine's sigil too.

 

I have a theory on the missing time between Cas saving Sam, and Dean being pulled off the sub. It's not perfect, but it might work as fanwank. :)

 

Look at Misha when he blinks into the sub. That, to me, is a "Cas" face, not Lucifer. So, maybe Cas got control over Lucifer to save Sam and then tried to use Lucifer's power (which presumably was still in him, though pushed down) to keep trying to get on the sub, hoping that Dean would eventually find and break the anti-angel sigils. So, in essence, maybe Cas was the dominant 'personality' when Dean was retrieved but the effort sapped Cas so much that Lucifer regained control on their landing back in the bunker. Sam, bless him, let NO time pass before telling Dean about Casifer, and so Lucifer gave up on trying to keep Dean alive and tried to kill him at that time. I'd have been interested to see whether Cas could have rallied to save the boys again if Sam hadn't been able to use a sigil to banish Casifer.

 

Alternatively, Cas kept Lucifer down long enough to GET to the sub but at the moment of touchdown, it was Lucifer. The sub was about to blow by the time Casifer landed on the sub so it was probably easier to just grab Dean, hope he had the HOG with him, and then deal with the fallout later. I don't, however, know why Casifer returned TO THE BUNKER with Dean. Wouldn't it have been smarter to return to a different location so that Sam couldn't spill the beans? That's what makes me think that Cas was dominant until their return touchdown... 

 

Double alternatively, Casifer didn't 'travel' back to Dean at all but got SUCKED back to his initial intended destination when the sigil was destroyed. Mmm, actually, I think that explains everything. That would mean the spell wasn't used and there's no missing time with Casifer and Sam at the bunker.

[DittyDotDot]

(Pardon my tardiness) Re: how Luci got on the sub in the end.

I thought we saw Delphine scratch away a little bit of the sigil on the wall. Before the activation of the Hand of God, she was underneath a bunk and used her knife and scratched a little. Did that affect things too? Or was that related purely to the activation of the HoG?

(I didn't think Luci actually *finished* that spell, did he?)

Edited for general grammatical weirdness.

 

No, Luci didn't finish the spell and yes, Delphine broke the warding on the boat by scratching the sigils she painted there, but she also had a sigil on her body that could only be removed by both breaking the sigil and killing her.  When she used the Hand of God, it burned away the sigil and herself so Luci was able to get on the boat then since all the sigils had been "broken". 

[SueB]

Double alternatively, Casifer didn't 'travel' back to Dean at all but got SUCKED back to his initial intended destination when the sigil was destroyed. Mmm, actually, I think that explains every-thin. That would mean the spell wasn't used and there's no missing time with Casifer and Sam at the bunker.

By George, I think you've got it.

[catrox14]

The Navy allowed beards until 1984.  (ETA  http://news.usni.org/2014/10/23/brief-history-grooming-u-s-navy-- the link to prove it.  This is why they need a damn researcher.  They wouldn't have to "discuss" if they took two seconds to look up the regs.)

 

 

I kind of laughed at Berens response because I totally took his reply of  "it was discussed" as kind of snarky towards the question which was confrontational and assumed Berens et al were flat out wrong and they weren't. Like look "we did our research. We knew the standards, which is why it made into the script". But that's just me.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Ask Petey, Supernatural's Cute, Doomed Sailor Who Wants To Know The Future
Hey, he seems nice enough.

[poppy-]

I thought this episode was really fun.  And I have to be honest, on the spot, I wouldn't have remembered if the next President was Eisenhower or Truman either.  I did flash back to Dean cheerfully telling Eliot Ness "The president is a black guy!"

 

I loved that the Nazis were cartoons in the grand Raiders tradition, but the US soldiers were portrayed as very human and quietly heroic.  Well done, tonally speaking.

 

I forgot Lucifer is an archangel.  

 

I don't really get the demons just stupidly staring and saying "We could really use some direction" - I guess they are all just random minions. But I miss smart, snarky demons.

[dragonsbite]

I don't really get the demons just stupidly staring and saying "We could really use some direction" - I guess they are all just random minions. But I miss smart, snarky demons.

 

Rowena undermined the smartest demons so that Crowley would get rid of them. And Amara probably ate the rest. These guys are the dregs.

[Ria]

Even if Cas were to evict Lucifer, he could just find himself another vessel, albeit a weaker one. But he was still plenty strong and dangerous in the Mark Pellegrino vessel. Cas evicting Lucifer doesnt really solve their problem. I wonder if having Cas in the vessel with him makes Lucifer stronger than if he were to somehow kill Cas and inhabit the vessel alone. I also wonder if Cas could just leave if he wanted to, during a moment he had control over the body. He is still an angel and is only inhabiting an empty vessel himself. He could then work with the brothers in another vessel. Although right now he still seems to think Luci is their best shot. Maybe he wants to stay with him to keep an eye on him. Of course he should also know Luci admitted trapping the Darkness the first time was a group effort and he really doesn't know how to do it.

[catrox14]

Blog post from the technical advisor on The Vessel.

 

Wow. Just all the kudos to Jerry Wanek et all for the submarine

 

 

http://www.robertwmackay.ca/completing-submarine-circle/

 

http://www.robertwmackay.ca/supernatural-submarine/

Edited February 20, 2016 by catrox14

[SueB]

Rewatched. A few little treasures I picked up on:

The "THEN" was nicely done. Starting off with MoL being keepers of the LIGHT. (Pretty damn relevant against the Darkness). Charlie (*insert sadface*) as a call-back to "Women of Letters". A greatest hits of the Time Travel including Bobby(!) and the soul power moment. The Thule reminder. These all informed the episode and much better than Love Hurts kinda random "holiday" shout-outs.

- Damn girl.Delphine was awesome. Very well acted. A great deal of character insight in a single episode. I could see a Supernatural Comics devoted to her exploits. Sort of like the Supernatural version of the Agents of Shield Agent Carter.

- I'm looking forward to Crowly filleting those minions some day. Mostly because they were stupid. Does this make me evil?

- Freezing and zooming on the Bluefin website on screen, it mentions a huge success against the Nazis. Which means Dalphine destroyed the ship the first time around. That tracks because the Thule dude asked to speak to her (independent of Dean's involvement). She probably went for the stab them as we die maneuver as it fits her personality. This makes me so proud of her.

- And speaking of the Thule, bald-dude indicated his ship had Supernatural powers. This probably explains why they were lost on radar and then suddenly reappeared as well as how they tracked the Bluefin in the first place.

- The writing for Casifer was just SPOT ON. And so was Misha's performance. Even when pretending to be Cas, little bits of Lucifer showed thru in the phrasing and the looks. And as he got more frustrated, it was fun to watch him unravel. Lucifer just can't hold his powder. His ego and his impatience are his downfall. His "grim face of constipation" and declaring the Winchesters insufferable. Hee. Oh yeah... It's that pride thing. Which is the opposite of humility -- which is a strength of Cas'. I'm looking forward to that battle.

- I really like Petey and his Flash Gordon comics. He also felt "real".

- Damn that set was great. VERY realistic as they were gearing up for battle.

- When Delphine first started using the Hand of God, her eyes reminded me of Dean's when he killed Zachariah. I swear, Dean is special, and it's going to come out.

- I'm now convinced that the Hand of God is going to become a useful artifact again. So is the sigil and blood magic Delphine used. Dean stared at it long enough, he's got that down. Now he just needs to find the attendant spell.


Worthy episode IMO.

 

ETA: Lyrics for the French song (which Bobo Berens said was meant to encapsulate Delphine)

http://lyricstranslate.com/en/non-je-ne-regrette-rien-no-i-regret-nothing.html-0#ixzz40jpptxbV

No, I regret nothing
Versions: #1#2#3#4#5#6#7#8#9#10#11#12#13

No, nothing at all,
No, I regret nothing
Not the good things they did to me
Nor the bad -- may as well be the same to me!

No, nothing at all,
No, I regret nothing.
It's bought and paid for, wiped away, forgotten,
I don't give a damn about the past!

With my memories
I've lit up the fire
Of my troubles, my pleasures,
I don't need them any more!

Wiped away the romances
And all their instabilities
Swept away for eternity
I restart at zero

No, nothing at all,
No, I regret nothing
Not the good things they did to me
Nor the bad -- may as well be the same to me!

No, nothing at all,
No, I regret nothing
Because my life, because my joys
Today, I begin with you

Edited February 20, 2016 by SueB

[Omegamom]

Thanks for the lyrics! Yeah, the "Then" segment was super awesome this week, tied all sorts of things into the episode.

[poppy-]

Rowena undermined the smartest demons so that Crowley would get rid of them. And Amara probably ate the rest. These guys are the dregs.

Oh. Thanks! I kinda skipped  a lot of season 10.  And 9.  I had  NO patience with Rowena (fine actress, dumb character).

 

But I loved the episode, and the blog post from the tech adviser really shows that 11 seasons in, this show is still really something special.  

[catrox14]

LOOOLLLLOLOLOL From the wonderful TippiTV recap of the Vessel.....

http://tippitv.tumblr.com/

 

 

She is not wrong and I complained in the episode thread.

   

In the present day, Dean is trying to cope with a lack of coffee in the bunker because Sam drank it all. Okay well clearly this is the worst thing anyone has ever done on this show. EVER.

 

 

and....this nugget

 

Back on the USS Hotties, Dean tries to blend in with the sailors.

 

 

 

And last by not least

 

 

Edited February 23, 2016 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

Hee.

 

Another thing that could've been added - "Sam forgot the pie" (which in Deanville is right up there with drinking all of the coffee.)

[catrox14]

Here's what really bothered me about the coffee.  It was Sam's complete lack of empathy for Dean in that situation. I mean it was almost Soulless!Sam level of not caring.  I mean sure Dean can live without pie, but Dean cannot think without coffee.  I can see why Tippi placed it on the highest end of the Literal Worst continuum of Worsts.

[AwesomO4000]

I didn't interpret it that way. I interpreted it as something my hubby likes to say, and is in fact a joke between us. One who leaves a "goodie" or leftover too long gets a "you snooze you lose." He doesn't feel guilty at all about eating it - and he's the most awesome, thoughtful hubby ever (Trust me on that one. I am one lucky woman) - because I snoozed, too bad for me (and vica versa). And we laugh. Because it's funny. I even smile as I'm saying "Okay where's the *fill in the blank*?" and then end up laughing as he answers matter of factly "Oh, yeah that. I ate it."

 

It's even funnier if he only eats some of it and tries to make it look like he didn't, but I always know anyway, giving him a "good try there, honey," and he's "Damn, I only took like a half an inch and evened it up and everything." And we laugh. It's a variation of another game we play. If we have something on our plate we don't want and/or we're full, we sneak it on the other person's plate. If the sneak is successful and I (or he) didn't see the transfer, the rule is the sneakee has to eat it. He still laughs about the time I went to get some more to drink, and he sneaked a whole bunch of casserole on my plate without me noticing and I ate it without even knowing I hadn't had that much to begin with when I went to get my drink. He didn't tell me until a few days later - and yes, we laughed.

 

And in Dean's case it was literally - Dean was "snoozing" (after going out drinking and having a good time if the hickey was any indication) while Sam was researching heavily (maybe even some of the night). Sam decided he needed the coffee for researching - and I think he even said as much, something like "you try researching this stuff without caffeine" - so "you snooze you lose." And Sam drank the coffee.

 

I consider it like Dean's lack of empathy after Sam's Tequila binge in "Playthings." The one who "falls down on the job" so to speak or takes a "vacation," gets razzed a little. Besides, they have little excuse for not having coffee considering how often they go out to get food (which Sam is often shown getting, so it's not like he doesn't think of Dean when he goes food gathering.)

 

I don't drink coffee myself, so while shopping, I don't think about getting it (It's weird; I'll get hubby other fun goodies and foods only he likes, but coffee is never on my radar). So hubby always has multiple containers in the cupboard on his own. He even special orders it, because our supermarket no longer carries the kind he likes (It's some Louisiana chicory coffee that he adores), and when he opens that last can - or sometimes the second to last can - he's ordering more so he doesn't run out. And if he does run out? ... I laugh, because he snoozed, he losed.

 

If Dean were smart, he'd have coffee in his room or in another room in the bunker... he's a think ahead kind of guy. He should have coffee hidden away for a rainy day. ; )

[catrox14]

Ermm...I was just joking..I really didn't take it that seriously.

 

I just felt bad for Dean because I am him in the morning without coffee, so anyone who gets between me and my coffee is clearly soulless.

[AwesomO4000]

Ermm...I was just joking..I really didn't take it that seriously.

 

I just felt bad for Dean because I am him in the morning without coffee, so anyone who gets between me and my coffee is clearly soulless.

 

Oh hee - though I was joking too (hence the little ; ) ), so sorry if it seemed I was serious.

 

I don't drink coffee - unlike my hubby - so the need for coffee thing and any joking concerning needing it generally goes whoosh! right over my head. If we're in a hurry and hubby's coffee isn't ready - which hardly ever happens, because he's the early riser - I'll be like "Ah, forget it. We'll just get some on the way/ when we get there/ etc." Which gets me a look like I lost my mind. Hee. Because no way is that happening. ; )

 

With me it's packing for trips. The night before a big trip, hubby can sleep away dead to the world while I'm up most of the night, making sure I didn't forget anything (no matter how early I started packing,) driving myself crazy. Hubby just doesn't get it. Do I really need to have my book, 4 skeins of yarn, my knitting needles, my nail clipper, my hair anti-frizz stuff, 10 pairs of underwear, 8 pairs of socks, and my Ipod nano? Yes, yes I do.

[DittyDotDot]

Heh, I was just thanking my boss for saving my life the other day. We ran out of coffee in the office the other day and there's no way I would've survived the night without there being coffee. My coworker takes her coffee consumption very seriously. Sam should be careful when researching all night! ;)

[SueB]

A while ago someone on Tumblr or Twitter did a series of post-it notes between TFW in the bunker. They were really funny and full of everyday jabs (like who used up the last of the coffee would fit).

I'm also recalling Ssm complaining about Desn's food in Tall Tales ('It's Darwinism!')