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Batman: The Killing Joke (2016)

GHScorpiosRule

By GHScorpiosRule
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GHScorpiosRule

GHScorpiosRule

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(edited)

During Comic Con at that!

 

If Timm is there, I hope that people inundate him with the same questions: "When will you make Hush?" "Will Kevin Conroy play Batman in Hush?"

 

Just like Greg Noveck, in the interview special features of Superman/Batman: Public Enemies, stated, that every panel he attended at the cons, he got the same question: "Will Kevin Conroy play Batman?" "Why isn't Kevin Conroy playing Batman?" "Is Kevin Conroy gonna play Wonder Woman?" Okay, that last one I think, he was being sarcastic, but the point was, we all want Kevin to voice Bats in ALL the dvd movies! At least, I know I do. He's spoiled me for anyone else voicing him; just like Clancy Brown IS Lex, and Mark Hamill IS Joker.

 

So yeah, I want Bruce Timm to make Hush his next project.

 

Edited by GHScorpiosRule
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scarynikki12

scarynikki12

I realized something else about TKJ today while enthusing/bragging about Comic Con to a buddy of mine: they will probably screen it at Comic Con!!  We won't know for sure until the programming schedule is released/leaked but there's a very good chance.  When Red Hood came out a few years ago they screened it twice during the Con and this is going to have way more interest and excitement than Red Hood.  Hopefully I haven't jinxed it even though it would make perfect sense.

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Kromm

Kromm

(edited)

We don't typically "do" direct to video stuff here, but this is a pretty important example of such. The most important remaining Batman story they've never gone ahead and animated before.  The Batman story that's caused more talk than any other, other than the Frank Miller books.  Done under the aegis of Bruce Timm, with the ORIGINAL Batman The Animated Series cast (with Ray Wise substituting for Bob Hastings, who died a few years ago). So Conroy as Batman. Hamill as The Joker. Going with the Timmverse cast, they had their choice of Batgirls (since 3 different people did the voice) and went with Tara Strong--who DID do the voice the most times, even if she wasn't the first one.

 

That's not saying this is actually "happening" in the original DCAU, just that it's going to SOUND like it was. 

 

The release date seems vague still, but the 10 minute preview video was released 4 days ago.

 

Edited by Kromm
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GHScorpiosRule

GHScorpiosRule

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All I know is that it's coming out in July and I am sooo uberly EXCITED.  Now if Bruce Timm would just do Hush next, I will have NO complaints! ONLY IF they get the original DCAU cast: Conroy, Lester and Barbeau.


I have moved and merged the thread from the Batman: TAS thread about the movie here to the Movies forum.

 

I think Mask of the Phantasm should also be moved here, since it was the only one that was actually released in the theater!

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Perfect Xero

Perfect Xero

I'm not as much a stickler for the other roles, but Kevin Conroy's voice is so iconic as Batman's I wish he'd been dubbed over Christian Bale's in the live action movies.

 

I'm still honestly surprised that some enterprising fan hasn't combed through Batman: TAS, JL/JLU, Batman Beyond, and other projects with Conroy to make this happen as a fan edit, at least for a scene or two.

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Kromm

Kromm

I'm not as much a stickler for the other roles, but Kevin Conroy's voice is so iconic as Batman's I wish he'd been dubbed over Christian Bale's in the live action movies.

Hamill as Joker is pretty iconic too. I mean I've heard other people do an IMPRESSION of Hamill doing The Joker, but it's never quite the same.

 

It will be interesting to see if Hamill approaches a deadlier version of The Joker any differently from the BTAS one--who was a dick to be sure and crazy, but who's violence was a bit more casual, usually.

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GHScorpiosRule

GHScorpiosRule

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Hamill as Joker is pretty iconic too. I mean I've heard other people do an IMPRESSION of Hamill doing The Joker, but it's never quite the same.

 

It will be interesting to see if Hamill approaches a deadlier version of The Joker any differently from the BTAS one--who was a dick to be sure and crazy, but who's violence was a bit more casual, usually.

 

 

His violence in Justice League and Justice League Unlimited was deadlier. I have complete faith in him.

 

I'm not as much a stickler for the other roles, but Kevin Conroy's voice is so iconic as Batman's I wish he'd been dubbed over Christian Bale's in the live action movies.

 

 

I've said this several times as well.  Bale's Batman wasn't that bad in Batman Begins, but it was horrible in the follow up movies. Oh well.

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Kromm

Kromm

While Conroy is always best, as strange as it seems I kind of liked Diedrich Bader in the "Brave and The Bold" TV series (a real unsung quality show that got replaced by the somewhat inferior "Beware The Batman"--although that show did have the distinction of introducing a decent version of Katana, long before "Arrow"). In part I liked Bader because THAT version was deliberately wacky, and he pulled it off with panache without going full Adam West.  Also on that show? Best. Aquaman. Ever.

 

There was also at least one of those previous direct-to-video films with a pretty good Batman, where I have a distinct memory of thinking "this guy isn't doing that bad", but I gotta think on it to remember which film and actor it was. There have been so many different guys voicing Batsy in those. 

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Dandesun

Dandesun

I have a bit of a struggle with the Killing Joke... especially how TPTB at DC were rather callous in how Barbara was treated in it. "Cripple the bitch" I believe was the phrasing and that Alan Moore did not think it was going to be part of canon when he wrote the story and asked about what he was allowed to do with the characters.

 

Still, later on Barbara being Oracle was super cool and all that but the initial shit that went down still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

It's not playing in my area.  Well, it is, in surrounding cities, but it would take at least 2 hours to get there and we wouldn't make the early showing.  And some of us have to work, so the 10 pm showing is a no go, either.  :-(

When they announced a second night of showings, I was hoping they might include some new theaters, but no luck.

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scarynikki12

scarynikki12

Not going into detail because I've been sleeping on the sidewalk all night (only Comic Con) but I thought it was very good. 

For those who were wondering about Babs

Spoiler

they do give her a story arc. The writers talked about making that change in part due to needing more to film and in part to fix the original mistake of not giving her one (though they say it more diplomatically). Her fridging is still in effect but she still has her own story. The ending is awesome too

At the panel Kevin got the standing o he deserves and Hamill called in to express his regret at not being there (which is 100% true as he's been waiting to make this movie for 20 years) before The Joker stole the phone. It was great. 

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GHScorpiosRule

GHScorpiosRule

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2 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

Not going into detail because I've been sleeping on the sidewalk all night (only Comic Con) but I thought it was very good. 

For those who were wondering about Babs

  Reveal hidden contents

they do give her a story arc. The writers talked about making that change in part due to needing more to film and in part to fix the original mistake of not giving her one (though they say it more diplomatically). Her fridging is still in effect but she still has her own story. The ending is awesome too

At the panel Kevin got the standing o he deserves and Hamill called in to express his regret at not being there (which is 100% true as he's been waiting to make this movie for 20 years) before The Joker stole the phone. It was great. 

I knew this about Babs from Conroy himself when news of this movie first came out. Or I saw some interview, where they talked about why they did what they did. But I'm confused about your saying that

Babs gets killed? I mean, that's what "fridged" means, right? I thought, from what I recall from the book, that she gets paralyzed and thus, becomes Oracle? Please tell me that she doesn't die! Or am I misremembering? That it was her death that brought Bats thisclosethisclose to killing that psychotic murderer?

I'm eating up all the interviews Conroy is posting on his FB page. And yeah, even looking forward to that new JL Action series, beause, CONROY! And the teaser line we got of him, as Bats saying to whoever he was beating up: "Did you miss me?". I was shouting, I mean like SHOUTING: "HELL YES! I MISSED YOU!" To see HEAR him on my small screen again? But it won't premiere until the FALL, durnit.

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scarynikki12

scarynikki12

To answer your question:

Spoiler

Fridging often refers to a female character getting killed so that her death can advance the story to the male character(s) but it also applies to Babs' situation. In the novel she gets shot but we only get to see how it affects Bats and Gordon. She shows up, gets shot and we're left feeling more in story emotional response to them instead of her (excluding the natural reaction people would have to this happening to an iconic character). In the movie this version of fridging occurs, because it is necessary to the plot, but Babs is given way more within the story itself. As the writers put it: she was the only character who didn't have an arc in the novel but they gave her one in the movie. So, when she gets shot, even though we spend that time with Bats and Gordon we also feel upset for her within this story rather than because she's iconic. 

Hope that makes sense.

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Kromm

Kromm

(edited)

Wow, the reactions to this have turned dark. Please note this link is very spoilery about something they are doing in the film (not just the classic bad thing that happens to Batgirl in the story but a new angle) that some people are apparently VERY upset about.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-killing-joke-movie-is-a-disaster-right-down-to-its-1784176711

In a nutshell, Batgirl

Spoiler

has sex with Batman (something that for many reasons never happens in the comics--but especially because she's Robin's age or younger usually--as well as a traditional romantic partner FOR Robin), is then rejected by Batsy and winds up mooning over him and THEN gets to be Joker's victim.

Edited by Kromm
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GHScorpiosRule

GHScorpiosRule

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4 minutes ago, Kromm said:

Wow, the reactions to this have turned dark. Please note this link is very spoilery about something they are doing in the film (not just the classic bad thing that happens to her in the story but a new angle) that some people are apparently VERY upset about.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-killing-joke-movie-is-a-disaster-right-down-to-its-1784176711

I hated when Timm did this in Batman Beyond, but it's not a deal breaker for me.  I'll just be pinching my nose while watching on the big screen and using my fast forward when watching it on my bluray.

I don't agree this was needed, but I can sort of understand.  Ultimately, for me?

❤️❤️❤️❤️CONROY❤️❤️❤️❤️ And ❤️❤️❤️❤️HAMILL❤️❤️❤️❤️

 

Thats enough for me.

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GHScorpiosRule

GHScorpiosRule

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Okay, now I'm happily eating crow because it wasn't anywhere near close to how bad the whiners made it out to be.

Just got home from seeing it and it was BLOODY FUCKING FANTASTIC!!! Can't wait until it arrives so I can watch it again. 

Not sure if I have to wait until the dvd/bluray has to be out officially before I can post without spoilers, but I'm going to err on the side of caution and wait.

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starri

starri

7 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

it wasn't anywhere near close to how bad the whiners made it out to be.

I don't know if "whiners" is exactly the correct term here.  Media in general and comics in particular have had a lot of problems with the depictions of female sexuality, and this sounds like more of the same.  I don't think people not being cool with how it unfolds it's unwarranted, even if others don't agree with it.  I've always had problems with the way Alan Moore depicts women, and I was hoping they might have improved on that.

And not for nothing, this was one of the first examples of a woman in a refrigerator, even though it was about ten years before Gail Simone coined the phrase.

Honestly, what's turned me off more is the way that Timm and Azzarello have kind of doubled down when defending it.  ComicBookResources has a few comments from Timm, and his comment about how it's due to Batman's 'parental skills' not being great kind of turned my stomach.  If they'd even acknowledged that people who aren't cheering for it might have a point, it wouldn't have bothered me as much.

I had been willing to ride it out, but the tone deafness is something I can't really ignore.  So yeah, I canceled my pre-order.

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GHScorpiosRule

GHScorpiosRule

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Okay, I'll give you what Timm said was stupid and not true, considering that he was, more or less, a parent to Dick, and had the same kind of issues with him: with Bats saying "Do as I say; I make all the rules."

But, the controversial scene? I was expecting

to see Babs and Bruce actually having sex; and it wasn't the case at all. Yeah, they're fighting, she lands on top of him, she kisses him, he puts his arms around her; she then takes off her suit and we see her in her bra. THAT I didn't care for at all. Then the camera just panned away and that's all we see of the sex.

I full expected to close or cover my eyes and pinch my nose, but I didn't have to. It's well known that I HATE AND LOATHE the fact that Timm and company had Babs and Bruce in a fucking romance as exposition when Batman Beyond premiered. They knew it was wrong and did it anyway because it was "interesting." Whatever.  I always, always, fast forward that scene, and the one in that straight to dvd movie, of the three Batwomen, because there's one where she's telling him she misses him, and blech, blah, blah, blah. Because for me, and Timm did this too, my one true pairing that I shipped like NOBODY'S BUSINESS was Bats/Bruce and Diana. The groundwork was there, but I got NO PAYOFF. Except at last year's Comiccon, when Kevin and Susan read some script where you just knew they were involved. 

Did I like that Moore had Barbara shot and paraylized? No, I did not. But I loved this movie. Will that get me tarred and feathered and my feminist card taken away from me? 

I did miss Robert Costanzo, Jr. as Bullock. It was some other guy, whose name I can't remember; or that Efrem wasn't voicing Alfred or Hastings not voicing Gordon, since they are no longer with us. But Costanzo is.

And since it's airing for another night, I'm going to go watch it again.

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starri

starri

This is probably going to sound condescending, and I'm sorry, and I don't mean it to, but I don't think you quite understand what people are upset about.

It isn't that Babs and Bruce have sex, although plenty of people (myself included) dislike that too.  It's the way Barbara is depicted in general, starting with her deciding to become Batgirl because she wants to get Batman's attention, not as a crimefighter, but as a boyfriend.  It reduces her to being a spurned woman, whose only role in the story is to be A) a sexual object, B) a victim, C) a driver for Batman's revenge against the Joker.  She's basically completely robbed of any agency.  And you've read Timm's response, and Brian Azzarello's comment was to call one person who disliked it a pussy.

So, yeah, I'm voting with my dollars.  If you like it, that's great.  I just hoped after the introduction of Batwoman into the DCAU, we'd start getting better depictions of women who aren't Wonder Woman onscreen.  And this seems like a gigantic step backward.

But yes, Bruce/Diana forever.

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millennium

millennium

5 hours ago, starri said:

 

It isn't that Babs and Bruce have sex, although plenty of people (myself included) dislike that too.  It's the way Barbara is depicted in general, starting with her deciding to become Batgirl because she wants to get Batman's attention, not as a crimefighter, but as a boyfriend.  It reduces her to being a spurned woman, whose only role in the story is to be A) a sexual object, B) a victim, C) a driver for Batman's revenge against the Joker.  She's basically completely robbed of any agency.  And you've read Timm's response, and Brian Azzarello's comment was to call one person who disliked it a pussy.

 

It sounds like they made her Batman's Harley Quinn.    

On 7/24/2016 at 0:04 PM, Kromm said:

Wow, the reactions to this have turned dark. Please note this link is very spoilery about something they are doing in the film (not just the classic bad thing that happens to Batgirl in the story but a new angle) that some people are apparently VERY upset about.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-killing-joke-movie-is-a-disaster-right-down-to-its-1784176711

In a nutshell, Batgirl

  Reveal hidden contents

has sex with Batman (something that for many reasons never happens in the comics--but especially because she's Robin's age or younger usually--as well as a traditional romantic partner FOR Robin), is then rejected by Batsy and winds up mooning over him and THEN gets to be Joker's victim.

So, in response to a charge that the writers didn't do justice to Batgirl's strength as a female character, the co-writer calls the guy "pussy?"   The irony would almost be funny if it weren't so pathetic.

This is someone on a national stage representing a major media company.   He calls someone in the audience "pussy" and there's no consequence?  

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millennium

millennium

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Not even comparable.

To my recollection, Harleen Quinn's criminal career began when she started falling for the Joker.    This Batgirl gets her start in crime-fighting by crushing on Batman.   Harleen Quinn becomes Harley Quinn, accomplice to the Joker, and develops romantic relationship with Joker.   Barbara Gordon becomes Batgirl, a crime-fighting partner of the Batman, and develops sexual relationship with Batman.

More than a little comparable, it seems to me.

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GHScorpiosRule

GHScorpiosRule

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(edited)

That may be how Harleen became Harley-since she was a character created for B:TAS, and comics for her were born from that, but Barbara didn't become Batgirl to get Batman's attention. And that

 

certainly wasn't the case in this movie

and Batgirl came to be because she was trying to save her father who had been framed for taking bribes and kickbacks.  She asked Barman for help by attending a rally for Gordon to show that he believed in Gordon's innocence, but he said no-he was investigating to prove it.  So Babs pretended to be Bats and from there became Batgirl. Who was involved with Dick. She decided to stay and be on Bats' team with another Robin. This is all in the DCAU. I'm not sure where in the timeline this stiry takes place-definitely after Joker killed Jason Todd. I have this book about Batman from his creation to the 80s and nowhere did I see that Barbara became Batgirl because she had a crush on Bats and wanted his attention.  

I blame Timm and James Tucker for even putting this shit in the universe-of them being involved romantically. Just gross.

So, no. Not even comparable.

Did I like or agree with some of the direction? No. But it wasn't as bad as I feared it was going to be. And I'll leave it at that.

Edited by GHScorpiosRule
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