Season 4 Discussion

[Scout Finch]

YES! The intensity of the second half was almost too much to bear at times but every time I've watched those episodes and the series ends, I think, BEST show ever! I am so envious of people getting to watch the series for the first time. I wish I could selectively remove the memories so I could enjoy the initial rush of the wild ride. I was on the edge of my seat so many times and yelling, "OMG!"

[DangerousMinds]

We certainly see this show and its characters differently. I certainly didn't think Ted, Marie, or anyone else deserved to die. And Hank was my favorite character by the end.

[ByTor]

2 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

We certainly see this show and its characters differently. I certainly didn't think Ted, Marie, or anyone else deserved to die. And Hank was my favorite character by the end.

No, they didn't, and yes, I share in the Hank love!    It's no secret that I couldn't stand Skylar, and on rewatch Jesse works my nerves more & more each time, but that doesn't matter to me, I still liked them...I liked them being there, I liked their stories, and of course I couldn't NOT like them for their portrayals, the acting was absolutely phenomenal.

[susannot]

re-watching:  Season 4 episode 3 "Open House" is where I started to hate Walt. It's where he really starts lying to Skyler when she expresses very understandable concern about whether the family was in danger.

Walt;  "violation of the work space."  What, are you going to file an OSHA complaint, Walt?

Edited August 24, 2016 by susannot

[susannot]

I know I'm talking to the air, but I need to express myself..  Episode "Shotgun" is a turning point.  Walt could have replied to Hank that Gale was Heisenberg but his ego would not let him.  Everything else that happened led inexorably from Walt's narcissistic decision.

[susannot]

Good God I fucking hate Walt.  Watching him manipulate everyone around him is one thing but watching him manipulate his disabled teenage son is incredibly despicable.  "Salud."

Edited August 28, 2016 by susannot

[OoogleEyes]

S4E6...is that Dickie Bennett?

[OoogleEyes]

OMG, Problem Dog. One of my favorites. My heart just breaks for Jessie 

[John Potts]

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AliShibaz Oh ... yes ... should I watch Season 5?

I would say that Season 5 is about how Walt having been "The Man the Man Relies On" has to deal with BEING "The Man" and how that works out for him (no Spoilers, but... don't expect all puppy dogs & rainbows). It does have (at least) one episode* I would rank up there with the best of the series.

ETA: Failed to notice the date: you've probably seen it by now. Doesn't alter my view, however.

Spoiler

* Ozymandis

Edited January 2, 2017 by John Potts

[kieyra]

Ok, dumb question, and I'm sure people pointed this out at the time ...

If it was so easy for Saul to invent a fake great-aunt to give Ted Beneke almost $700k ... why was this ruse not used to launder some of Walt's initial earnings?

Or in other words ... how would that bizarre windfall not immediately raise even MORE red flags at the IRS?

[Spartan Girl]

They reran season 4 last Sunday, and it occurs to me that Walt poisoning Brock and framing Gus to get Jesse on his side was not only despicable but ultimately unnecessary.

Right before he got the call from Andrea, Jesse was at Saul's office only just finding out that Gus threatened to kill Walt and his family. And despite the fact that they were on the outs, Jesse seemed shook by it. He certainly didn't want him to die -- then. Might it be logical to assume that had it not been from Brock's poisoning, Jesse's conscience might have led him to go against Gus anyway?

[qtpye]

On Wednesday, August 09, 2017 at 6:42 AM, Spartan Girl said:

They reran season 4 last Sunday, and it occurs to me that Walt poisoning Brock and framing Gus to get Jesse on his side was not only despicable but ultimately unnecessary.

Right before he got the call from Andrea, Jesse was at Saul's office only just finding out that Gus threatened to kill Walt and his family. And despite the fact that they were on the outs, Jesse seemed shook by it. He certainly didn't want him to die -- then. Might it be logical to assume that had it not been from Brock's poisoning, Jesse's conscience might have led him to go against Gus anyway?

This might be a dumb question, but why did Walt have to take Jessie's riacin cigarette?  Brock was poisomed with Lily of the Valley.

[ByTor]

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

This might be a dumb question, but why did Walt have to take Jessie's riacin cigarette?  Brock was poisomed with Lily of the Valley.

So it would look like he was poisoned with the ricin.

[Uncle JUICE]

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

This might be a dumb question, but why did Walt have to take Jessie's riacin cigarette?  Brock was poisomed with Lily of the Valley.

 

12 minutes ago, ByTor said:

So it would look like he was poisoned with the ricin.

Exactly: he intimated that Gus's lab monitor who replaced Victor (Tyrus, maybe?) could have gone into Jesse's lab locker, swiped the cigarette and put the pack back without Jesse knowing. 

[ByTor]

On 8/10/2017 at 2:30 PM, Uncle JUICE said:

Exactly: he intimated that Gus's lab monitor who replaced Victor (Tyrus, maybe?) could have gone into Jesse's lab locker, swiped the cigarette and put the pack back without Jesse knowing. 

And now I'm starting to wonder (because I forgot)...was it ever explained how any of them would have known that a vial of ricin was in the cigarette?

Edited August 14, 2017 by ByTor

[Uncle JUICE]

1 hour ago, ByTor said:

And now I'm starting to wonder (because I forgot)...was it ever explained how any of them would have known that a vial of ricin was in the cigarette?

Pretty sure Walt played it off as "they have cameras everywhere slash do youbreally think Gus wouldn't know, " playing off Jesse's paranoia.

[ByTor]

1 hour ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Pretty sure Walt played it off as "they have cameras everywhere slash do youbreally think Gus wouldn't know, " playing off Jesse's paranoia.

Thanks, this makes sense.  I didn't think it was ever explained, and I know Walt did convince Jesse that Gus tried to poison Brock with ricin, but I didn't recall if the hows or whys were ever explicitly stated.

[possibilities]

I found it hard to get through Seasons 1 to 3. To me, it was an OK show, but a less complex Wire, kind of a Wire for the white middle class only. But S 4 was awesome. I binged it in a day and a half, to the detriment of the rest of my life.

RE why the ricin misdirect: Walt wanted Jesse to feel guilty, thinking he exposed Brock to the ricin.

I thought that Skyler had a lot more money stashed in her closet (all those scenes of her storing it in those vacuum dress bags and then collapsing the rod they were hanging on), so when Walt's stash under the house was gone, I was confused about why she didn't have more in her closet they could use to disappear.

I thought Ted's money problems looked originally like he needed to pretend to have income so he could float his debts and keep the business going, which led to him pretending to have more income than he did (so he could get credit), which led to him not paying his taxes because the income wasn't really there to pay them with. But later it seemed like his real problem was that he was living a luxury lifestyle and pocketing his income for that purpose instead of actually funding the business and paying his taxes. I agree it was confusing and maybe didn't make sense.

I also understood why Skyler wanted him to pay the tax, but I thought her confessing to him about the source of the money was the most idiotic thing anyone on the show has ever done. She should have found a way to make him do it without exposing herself further if he decided to snitch for some reason.

I also hated that whole thing about Hank being shitty to Marie and her just taking it and then going out to steal to relive the tension. We saw how important she was to him, how he loved her, when he left the trailer watch to go to her in the hospital. Yes, he was depressed after the shooting, but still-- I didn't enjoy watching him become an abusive be unable to confront him about it.

I have known people like Jesse, who have a mix of stunningly bad judgment, low self-esteem, low impulse control, genuine heartfelt passionate sincerity and morality in specific areas, and flashes of insight mixed with chasms of oblivion. I find it fascinating to watch even though it's just as frustrating on screen as in real life. I think why I like him is that he actually does have a willingness to die for his values at times, a true heroic unselfishness. He refused to go along with the idea of using children on the corners, and he seems to have genuinely taken care of his dying aunt despite his family not giving him any credit; he has some actual courage and conviction that is beyond self-preservation, and he doesn't get over his moral conflicts easily. He killed Gale to save Walt and himself, but he couldn't bear it. He doesn't shake it off like everyone else on the show seems to do when his self-preservation or loyalty in one area leads to betrayal or wrongdoing in another. He still misses Jane and all his brokenness seems to come from heartbreak, not greed. He gives up and he acts out, but it's not his only consistent source of trouble. He also gets into messes out of genuine bravery at times. And he learns. He's not getting worse, like Walt. And he's not past the point of no return on the moral horizon like Gus. He says at one point "what is more important than money?" but he acts like he wants love more. I understand him.

I don't really understand Walt anymore. His ego has always been a problem-- as when he refused to accept help from wealthy friends for his treatments. But he seems to have really gone from making bad choices to reveling in them.

I was also surprised that when he called junior "Jesse" after the beat down, that never was brought up again. I was expecting junior to ask about it, or think about it, and start putting things together, but he never did.

LOVED Jesse throwing back at Walt that "you brought a bomb into a hospital" when Walt was grilling him after the plot to blow up Gus's car failed. Love seeing Jesse assert more of his intelligence and equality with Walt, and not take so much of Walt's shit.

Also, I liked that Gus was smart about how fear is not the only or best motivator. He was evil but not stupid.

Edited September 5, 2017 by possibilities

[ByTor]

On 9/5/2017 at 4:10 PM, possibilities said:

I thought Ted's money problems looked originally like he needed to pretend to have income so he could float his debts and keep the business going, which led to him pretending to have more income than he did (so he could get credit), which led to him not paying his taxes because the income wasn't really there to pay them with. But later it seemed like his real problem was that he was living a luxury lifestyle and pocketing his income for that purpose instead of actually funding the business and paying his taxes. I agree it was confusing and maybe didn't make sense.

People have argued that Ted was purposely understating income to lower his tax burden, but I don't think that's correct, being that he did seem to owe an awful lot in taxes.  There was a scene where Skyler confronted Ted about invoices not having backup; what I assumed she meant was that they were copies of Beneke invoices that were files as "paid," but there were no check copies or wire confirmations attached, thus his income was being overstated & he didn't have the money to pay the corporate income tax.

[Uncle JUICE]

On 9/5/2017 at 4:10 PM, possibilities said:

I also understood why Skyler wanted him to pay the tax, but I thought her confessing to him about the source of the money was the most idiotic thing anyone on the show has ever done. She should have found a way to make him do it without exposing herself further if he decided to snitch for some reason.

She didn't initially WANT to confess to Ted about the source of the money, though, remember? She sent Goodman in there with his story about Uncle Bertie who left Ted exactly the right sum of money to pay the tax burden, and initially Ted took it. The problem was what happened AFTER he took it, and he left Skyler with almost no choice: he leased a luxury car and re-opened the business (which while it doesn't necessarily speak to the particulars of Ted's tax problem and how it arose or what it was over, definitely demonstrates that he's a short term thinker with little common sense when it comes to money, because he was rich from his father's business in his formative years). This forced Skyler to confront him, because her name was the one in the books, and she'd be culpable criminally for signing bad documents. Her ditzy Erin Brockovich act was never going to play very long in court, and the IRS guy barely believed it at the outset. She had to confront him because he was so stupid, and she only told him what she had to tell him (for example, she didn't to my recollection say Walt was a kingpin, that he'd made so much money, that he worked for someone else, etc). The show then folded this turn of events into its central theme: anyone whose life brushed against Walt's drug money had their lives ruined. Everyone. I hated the Ted story line when it was Skyler had an affair to take control of her life back in some small way, but on rewatching the show, it's sort of typical of the long game it plays with almost every detail. 

I'm going to respond to other points in your post, but I always enjoy talking about this show, and I'm always jealous of people who are watching it for the first time. I disagree with your assessment of 1-3, and I don't think comparing it to the Wire is apples to apples, but to each his or her own. 

Edited September 8, 2017 by Uncle JUICE

[possibilities]

I understood why she told him, I just thought she should have figured out another way to accomplish the same result. She's been more creative and successful in that endeavor before, and I would have enjoyed it more than her just giving him info he could use against her. I haven't finished S5 yet, so I don't know if it comes back to bite her or not, though.

Looking forward to your further reactions. Watching years late often means no one to rehash with, so I'm glad not everyone has totally moved on!

[Absurda]

Okay, got to finish this series over the weekend.  I thought season 4 was the best season of the series and with the way 4 ended, season 5 just seemed unnecessary.  I like how certain threads (like Hank's recovery) were wrapped up in 5, but at the end of 4 I just didn't think it was necessary.  My thought on Ted's income was that he was laundering money for someone thus money was coming in with nothing to back it up and wasn't officially on the books, "Keller" was a dummy account.  So, with the IRS he had to put that money on his books and pay taxes on it.  I realize, after reading all the discussion, that I have no basis for this but that was the impression I had at the time.

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It doesn't help that I pretty much loathe Walt and cheer against him in every scene (except where it means Jesse or any other character I actually care about might get hurt or lose in some way).

I started disliking Walt in season 1.  I started to truly despise him in season 4.  The final straw was when Gus took him into the desert to fire him.  He's blubbering and begging and crying to try and stay alive then when he realizes Gus won't kill him because Jesse won't let him, Walt starts talking all tough again like he's some sort of untouchable badass.  I found that really disgusting.  This was a pattern with Walt, whenever he thought he had cover or leverage he acted like a total mafia badass, but he really didn't have anything to back it up.  As soon as someone bigger or stronger barked, he turned all sniveling (to their face, at least).  Classic coward/bully behavior.

 

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(While Walt was right when he cried out, "It's all about ME!", it's just such a self-centered thing to say, like Jesse has no value outside of Walt.)

 In that moment I thought "thus Walt unintentionally sums up the entire series and explains all his motivations".

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Here he had Hank believing Gale was Heisenberg, and he goes and plants doubts in Hank's mind, because he just cannot tolerate that someone else is taking credit for his work! And he claims to Skylar that he's all about protecting the family

Of course he couldn't take this perfect out offered to him on a silver platter.  His ego would never allow such a thing. 

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I’m at the point where I’d prefer Jesse be Mike’s protege rather than Walt’s, since Walt is such a douchey manipulator who only thinks of himself. I don’t get that vibe from Mike at this point.

I really think Mike or even Gus would have been better mentors for Jesse since they seemed to actually come to value him as a person rather than just a flunky or extension of themselves.  That said, I don't think Jesse could ever really be their protégée because his just not the guilt-free killer they are.  He never could be and I would never forgive the writers if they turned him into one : )  He could never make those cold decisions of killing for convenience.  Just seeing how killing Gale ate at him shows that.

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Another question from "Bug". If the cartel wanted Jesse for its lab, why did Gaff take a shot at him, that would have killed him if Mike didn't push Jesse out of the way?

I think, at that point, they didn't know that Jesse would be the cook Gus would bring with him or that Jesse was a cook at all.  They just thought he was another flunky.

I loved Gus and was really sad to see him go.  He was such a compelling villain to me.  There were times when I couldn't tell if he was being honest or subtly menacing. He was such an ice cold guy.  His take out of the cartel was incredible!  I really want to know more about his background and why the cartel couldn't kill him.  Just who is this guy?  Hopefully they'll give us something in Better Call Saul. 

[GreekGeek]

On 9/11/2017 at 12:35 PM, Absurda said:

I loved Gus and was really sad to see him go.  He was such a compelling villain to me.  There were times when I couldn't tell if he was being honest or subtly menacing. He was such an ice cold guy.  His take out of the cartel was incredible!  I really want to know more about his background and why the cartel couldn't kill him.  Just who is this guy?  Hopefully they'll give us something in Better Call Saul. 

I'm probably one of five people in the world watching this series for the first time, and I just wrapped up S4. i also was sad to see Gus go, because there's so much we never found out about him. His name, for example...I get that Gus is short for Gustavo, but his last name puzzles me. It doesn't sound "Hispanic" at all, and some viewers thought his Spanish sounded like a high school student's rather than a native Chilean's. Is his name fake, and is he actually from Chile? I haven't seen Better Call Saul; does it provide answers?

[ByTor]

On ‎2‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 11:18 PM, GreekGeek said:

Is his name fake, and is he actually from Chile?

After Gale was murdered, Hank had a discussion with Gus about there being no record of a "Gustavo Fring" as a Chilean national.  Gus blamed it on Pinochet's poor record keeping.

[GreekGeek]

4 hours ago, ByTor said:

After Gale was murdered, Hank had a discussion with Gus about there being no record of a "Gustavo Fring" as a Chilean national.  Gus blamed it on Pinochet's poor record keeping.

I remember that conversation, but was it ever resolved what his real story was?

[ByTor]

19 minutes ago, GreekGeek said:

I remember that conversation, but was it ever resolved what his real story was?

Nope!  And to answer your other question, there were some brief scenes with Gus on Better Call Saul, but nothing major.  BCS may address Gus' backstory, but I won't be shocked if they don't.