S11.E11: Into The Mystic

[AwesomO4000]

But it's confusing because I really don't trust that Sam is once again listening to Lucifer about ANYTHING, right or wrong. I find it hard to believe the show wants us to side with Lucifer against Sam ...at all.   I just don't know how to feel and what to think about that "apology".  I feel like it's part of Lucifer's longer game to fuck with Sam again at some point.

 

All my opinion here: I don't think Sam is listening to Lucifer per se. Or at least not to what Lucifer wanted him to hear exactly. The "you didn't look for your brother" dig wasn't Lucifer's main point. It was just a dig to make Sam vulnerable. In truth, Lucifer couldn't have given a rat's ass if Sam looked for Dean. Lucifer's main point of that being the worst thing he did was because Sam gave up hunting and gave up in general and "went soft." What Sam took from it - a reminder that he hadn't looked for Dean and still felt guilty about it - wasn't what Lucifer wanted Sam to take from it - that Sam should "man-up" by letting Lucifer use him as a vessel.

 

As for wondering about the show wanting us to side with Lucifer against Sam, I don't know. I wouldn't think that the show would want us to side with say Crowley against Sam either, yet for me, the writers went out of their way to make Crowley all buddy buddy with Dean and end up being the poor rejected best friend while at the same time making Sam look like the worst brother ever (even as he had been the one originally wronged)... at least until the turn around - finally - in episode 3 of season 10, but up until that point I was getting as many "aww look at poor jilted Crowley. Dean is so mean to him," vibes as anything else. And many of the choices that the writers made for Sam - like say most of the second half of season 9 - just seemed to support that Crowley was being more "supportive" than Sam. And in season 8, just substitute Benny for Crowley (and the first half of the season rather than the second) and it's pretty much the same story. So, sometimes I wonder, and truthfully wouldn't be overly surprised really.

[AwesomO4000]

This. Exactly.

They did the same exact thing with the pseudo Sam apology in Sacrifice with the added bonus of his again blaming Dean, in part, as he did in Fallen Idols.

 

I disagree of course, but this is an old topic that goes nowhere but in circles.

 

Bottom line, in the beginning of the show Sam used to say "I'm sorry" more than Dean. Now Dean does, though neither one says "sorry" all that much to the other after season 5. There are other ways to apologize. For example, in my opinion, Sam admits he's wrong to Dean - and means it - I think more than Dean. Does that mean Dean feels less guilty about stuff or doesn't think he's ever wrong? I don't think so.

 

And so what if Sam expressed his guilt? He admitted he felt badly and that he was wrong. Considering Dean teased him not that long ago when Sam admitted that Dean was right, that Sam was making himself vulnerable here, to me, was a risk. Dean wanted to know what was wrong with Sam, and Sam shared. In my opinion that's an improvement from when Sam kept secrets out of guilt rather than admit it.

 

And I think catrox is basically right. In order for Sam to get where he is now and know what he truly wants, I think maybe he had to try one more time to "build himself a life." So in that, I don't think Sam is sorry about that. He knows now that that really didn't go how he wanted it to, and that it didn't really fit even if, for a moment, Sam wanted it to. But he had to go through that to know, and for that experience and what he learned from it, I agree that Sam isn't sorry.

[Bessie]

I thought the apology scene was a very bittersweet moment between the boys. And the actors did a beautiful job. Dean's forgiveness was far more intriguing to me than Sam's words. Does he really forgive Sam? I'm not so sure. He's forgiven Sam in the past and then brought those same hurts up again years later. So, while I believe Dean is being honest in that moment, I'm not certain we won't hear about Sam's transgressions again.

And if he's forgiving Sam because he wants to make Sam feel better, I really wish he wouldn't. It doesn't help either Sam or himself in the long run.

[DittyDotDot]

It did seem Dean struggled with moving past this back in S8, but I figured Dean had forgiven Sam, even though Sam hadn't asked for it, and moved on after Citizen Fang. I doubt he's totally forgotten it, but I think he understands why Sam did it and doesn't hold it against him anymore. Plus, he's had bigger issues to occupy his mind since then, so I think he was being sincere here.

Edited February 1, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Myrelle]

Maybe it's a matter of being able to forgive, but unable to forget. That's pretty common in RL and at this point, I don't think Dean could be blamed if he was still a bit unsure of Sam looking if say, he had trouble getting back from somewhere like another time or place. Some times being unable to forget something becomes a defense mechanism especially if one feels that they are constantly waiting for the other show to drop with another.

And frankly, secrets and lies are still happening between them pretty frequently and that could(and should!) go straight to Dean's trust issues, IMO. And that, I would definitely like to see addressed between them as long as Dean doesn't take on the lion's share of the blame for that just because the writers happen to be addressing it a time when Dean is doing it, but they're mum on the subject when Sam does it. If they would address it in a shared manner AKA they BOTH do it and it needs to stop and we could get it sans a "lesson" or  "schooling" for Dean alone, with Sam as the "teacher" again, then fine-just not the way that it happened in Form and Void regarding hunting and getting back to the idea of trying to saving everyone because that was barf-inducing writing, IMO.

[SueB]

I was thrilled with Dean's "apology" in Sharp Teeth-especially because I didn't think that any Dean apology was really that necessary, under those circumstances, and no more necessary than any of Sam's quasi, pseudo, or  non-apologies were when he was under a supernatural influence..

 

If you don't think Dean owed Sam an apology for the Gadreel situation, I think I'm just going to agree to disagree and move on. 

[MysteryGuest]

I think the only difference between Dean's apologizing to Sam for allowing Gadreel to possess him, and Sam's apologizing for not looking for him when he was in Purgatory, is that Dean did what he did to save Sam's life.  Sam just stopped hunting and didn't look for Dean at all.  Now the truth is, they've both wronged each other enough that I don't think either one of them truly owes the other an apology at this point.  Lots of water under that bridge.

Edited February 2, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[Demented Daisy]

Oh, for Chuck's sake, do I have to go count the number of times they've said, "I'm sorry" now?  ;-)

[AwesomO4000]

And that, I would definitely like to see addressed between them as long as Dean doesn't take on the lion's share of the blame for that just because the writers happen to be addressing it a time when Dean is doing it, but they're mum on the subject when Sam does it.

 

I guess it depends on your definition of "mum on the subject." In my opinion, the fact that two of the main times Sam was keeping secrets from and lying to Dean he started an apocalypse as a result pretty much lets me know that the writers probably think it's a really bad thing when Sam keeps secrets from and/or lies to Dean. Ditto with Castiel keeping secrets from Dean... also resulting in two apocalypses. For me the message there seems to be lie to Dean = a bad thing. For me, that's not exactly subtle, but miles vary.

 

 

Oh, for Chuck's sake, do I have to go count the number of times they've said, "I'm sorry" now?  ;-)

 

Hee, don't think that thought hasn't crossed my mind, though. (And/or how many times they admitted they were wrong and/or the other was right.)...

 

Because yay! More Demented statistics and lists! Or I should say more statistics from Demented... though I guess it could be argued that in this case the stats also would be demented, but...

 

But no. We would never do that to you, because that would be a major chore to say the least, and it would be very wrong to put you through that just for our own amusement. Especially if charts and/or graphs were involved (ooh maybe a 3D pie chart! Dean would approve. ; ) )

 

I'm a bad, bad person. Heh.

 

 

(And I also think that I have a pretty good idea... with an exception or two, I was pretty good at predicting the last batch of data.)

[Demented Daisy]

Ay yi yi.  I've created a monster....

[Demented Daisy]

Hee, don't think that thought hasn't crossed my mind, though. (And/or how many times they admitted they were wrong and/or the other was right.)...

 

*sigh*  To each other, to other people, or both?

 

The things I do....  Yes, I've already started.

[AwesomO4000]

Oh, I am so sorry (well sort of... okay, I'm really secretly anticipatory. I'm an awful person.)

 

These are your stats, Demented. I'll take whatever you give me and be grateful for it. In my book, you're awesome.

 

 

Edited to add: Oh and if you decide at any time that it ain't worth it and/or it is no longer fun or of interest to you... that's okay, too. I entirely understand.

Edited February 2, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[ahrtee]

Just to jump into the apology battle (and thanks to Demented for offering to run the statistics...)

 

IMO, Sam tends to apologize for big things that were out of his control (ie, starting the apocalypse or not being able to save Dean from Hell).  Dean tends to apologize for things that impact Sam. IIRC,  neither one of them has apologized (or probably ever will) for things they did that they felt were necessary (ie, saving the other by whatever means necessary; or, on a smaller scale, things like killing Amy or not trusting Benny), though both have admitted to feeling guilty about them and have (sometimes) apologized for hurting the other.  But they would still do the same thing over again if the same situation came up.  (And I don't remember either one having a problem with apologizing to other people when it's appropriate.)  

 

So it's not just the number of apologies or who's the one who says "I'm sorry," but what they're apologizing for, and what they *haven't* apologized for.  (Sorry, but I still really, *really* want Sam to tell Dean that he didn't mean his speeches in Sharp Teeth and The Purge; that he was just (understandably) angry but he doesn't really believe the terrible things he said, because we know that Dean *did* take them to heart.)

 

On a personal note, I believe there is value in actually *saying and hearing* the words "I'm sorry" and "I forgive you."  It doesn't have to be said over and over again, but should be spoken out loud.  It acknowledges that someone was hurt, and that both people know it.  As someone upthread said, it doesn't mean that all is forgotten, or that the one hurt won't still be wary, at least for a while, but just having someone take responsibility for their own words or actions is very, very important, even among families. 

 

 

[AwesomO4000]

IMO, Sam tends to apologize for big things that were out of his control (ie, starting the apocalypse or not being able to save Dean from Hell).  Dean tends to apologize for things that impact Sam.

 

But that isn't the way it used to be. In the early seasons (generally 1 and 2, maybe also 3), Sam used to apologize for even small things - like hurting Dean's feelings (even if he'd already taken criticism for it). That started right from the Pilot. I'm not sure why that changed - except maybe for angst factor - because that used to be Sam's MO in the beginning. In some ways I tended to think Sam was more forgiving than he needed to be back then - like when Dean hit him and Sam shrugged it off as if he deserved it even though he didn't (and even offered to let Dean hit him again if it would make Dean feel better.) So somewhere along the way that changed, and I almost wonder if it all goes back to "Mystery Spot" myself. I really do think the Sam of old died that episode, and he never really was the same. He seemed to become more hardened after that. That's my theory anyway.

[SueB]

 So somewhere along the way that changed, and I almost wonder if it all goes back to "Mystery Spot" myself. I really do think the Sam of old died that episode, and he never really was the same. He seemed to become more hardened after that. That's my theory anyway.

I totally agree.  Mystery Spot was a watershed event for Sam.  He has never been the same after IMO.

 

Rewatching Into the Mystic tonight (Hi, my name is SueB and I've got a problem with Supernatural.... don't judge me), I picked up on another wee parallel in Robbie's script. JUST after Casifer suggests that Dean be bait for Amara, Sam is suggesting Mildred as bait for the Banshee. And Dean says he doesn't like using her (or anyone as bait) and Sam agrees.  It's another compare & contrast. Casifer suggesting Dean as bait is a red flag.  The boys in S11 don't want to use people as bait (which is a better approach than the last two years where I think they didn't hesitate as much with putting civilians at risk).  It's nice to see the boys instincts of "saving people" be reinforced while simultaneously using this a logical contrast with Casifer's behavior.  Nicely played Mr. Thompson.

 

Other little bits I wanted to mention:

- Do you think they put the dirt back on the burned body or leave it open?  I'm thinking it's less likely to be investigated if they cover the grave up.  Seems to me they should do that and now I need to see it done.  Because, 11 seasons and I want little moments of closure like that.

- I giggle a bit every time Mildred sort of pitter-patters over to the symbol.  Was she wearing high heels?

- Watching the sign language, it sure seemed like their was about 1 hand movement for every 3 words.  I presume it was correct... but did anyone else notice that?

 

Minutia... I know... it just all stuck in my head.

[catrox14]

Speaking of minutia, did you guys see the squirrel running behind the angel that Casifer killed. It's blink and you miss it. That had to be intentional right? Just like the bird like thing flying around Dean in Void and Form?

[AwesomO4000]

- Watching the sign language, it sure seemed like their was about 1 hand movement for every 3 words.  I presume it was correct... but did anyone else notice that?

 

I'm pretty sure that sign language doesn't have nearly as many words as spoken language*, so I think sometimes there are short cuts. Also Mildred explained that she mostly wanted to use sign language with Eileen to practice (so she could better talk with her niece), and Eileen could read lips, so the sign language was mostly a supplemental thing... I can't say for sure (and wouldn't want to presume to speak for deaf people), but I'm guessing it would be like when I use closed captioning while walking on my treadmill - I generally hear most of it anyway, but I like to have the words on the screen to fall back on. It's a convenience when the dialogue goes low and saves me from having to backtrack the DVD to see what I missed.

 

* For example, I had a friend in high school who had a good friend who was deaf. She would often sign to music with her at talent shows. One song they used to do was REO Speedwagon's "Keep on Loving You." When they would do that song, sometimes they would have to use an equivalent word or something as close as they could. For example, the line "You lay still in the grass all coiled up and hissing"... there was no sign for "hissing," so they would use "making noise."

 

Edited to add:

 

Speaking of minutia, did you guys see the squirrel running behind the angel that Casifer killed.

 

Yes, I did see that! I remember thinking that it must be a city squirrel since it didn't seem to be afraid of the people or the cameras and other pieces of equipment that were likely around.

 

I hadn't considered that it might be an "actor" squirrel there on purpose. Hmmm.

Edited February 2, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[DittyDotDot]

- Do you think they put the dirt back on the burned body or leave it open?  I'm thinking it's less likely to be investigated if they cover the grave up.  Seems to me they should do that and now I need to see it done.  Because, 11 seasons and I want little moments of closure like that.

 

They have done it: S2, Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things. I thought it was hilarious they were doing that in the daylight. I know the implication was they ran out of night, but still kinda cracks me up anyway. That's where that gag reel moment of Jared splitting his pants came from. I think there was one in S6 or S7 too, but maybe it was an after-moment and I just filled in the rest in my head? I would imagine they'd try to cover up the bodies whenever they can, but I'm sure they had a string of grave desecrations on their records for a reason.

 

I still giggle at the notion they can actually dig up the body(which would take hours to dig by hand with shovels--not to mention how neat and tidy those holes are; almost like it was done by machine), burn the bones (which would also take hours), and then fill back in the hole all in the space of one night and go undetected too. But I love a good salt 'n' burn!

[shang yiet]

Huh, no apology would have been needed if Carver had done his job better in the first place. I do hope this apology at least will get some sections of the fandom to pipe down once and for all. if they think Sam was having the time of his life without Dean, they can think again. 

 

Anyway, I believe now Sam did start to find Dean  but felt guilty he stopped too soon. But then again, is it a crime to hit a brick wall and be overcome by despair and denial? No. I hope Dean understands this.

 

Sam has always done all he could to find and save Dean in the past - Mystery Spot where he went to superhuman lengths. Time after Time, etc. So the one time he couldn't do it, he shouldn't feel guilty, He was not mentally in the right place to turn over every stone. 

 

Anyway, what about the supposed agreement not to look for each other? Did not Dean agree to this? How then can he be angry if Sam kept the agreement? "Look, I said not to look for me but I didn't mean it, really!' Strikes me as being rather passive aggressive.

 

I was surprised that Sam got his chance to bond with his own guest star and his interaction with Mildred was nice too. I like both her and the deaf girl and hope they can come back. I look forward to more Casifer and Sam.. Sam/Lucifer scenes are always gold for me and this Casifer angle will give Sam a role in the mytharc in between Dean pining for Amara.

[ahrtee]

Huh, no apology would have been needed if Carver had done his job better in the first place. I do hope this apology at least will get some sections of the fandom to pipe down once and for all. if they think Sam was having the time of his life without Dean, they can think again. 

 

Anyway, I believe now Sam did start to find Dean  but felt guilty he stopped too soon. But then again, is it a crime to hit a brick wall and be overcome by despair and denial? No. I hope Dean understands this.

 

Sam has always done all he could to find and save Dean in the past - Mystery Spot where he went to superhuman lengths. Time after Time, etc. So the one time he couldn't do it, he shouldn't feel guilty, He was not mentally in the right place to turn over every stone. 

 

Anyway, what about the supposed agreement not to look for each other? Did not Dean agree to this? How then can he be angry if Sam kept the agreement? "Look, I said not to look for me but I didn't mean it, really!' Strikes me as being rather passive aggressive.

 

Tell you what...maybe those sections of the fandom would "pipe down" about Purgatory if the other sections would do the same about Gadreel...especially since Gadreel wound up saving the day (and Cas's, Charlie's and Sam's life) any number of times, Sam called him one of his "real friends" and admitted that he never felt threatened by him.  Nobody ever said anything good came out of Dean being in Purgatory.

 

But I don't really want to start up the fights again.  They've both done bad, bad things to each other, and usually with good intentions.  

 

IA (and believe most "sections" would agree) that it's Carver's fault for bad character writing.  And I don't think even the most rabid Deangirl would say Sam was having the time of his life while Dean was in Purgatory.  All you have to do is watch his interactions with Amelia to see he's barely holding on (even her father noticed it.)  Honestly, all I thought they needed was a line saying "I looked.  But then I couldn't do it any more." And I think Dean would have accepted that, the same way he accepted Sam saying "You were rotting in hell and there was nothing I could do about it."  There was no blame assigned then. But there was also no reason for Sam to be *angry* at Dean for returning, and for his being so defensive about Amelia except that he obviously felt guilty...and he was blaming Dean for his leaving Amelia, even though he'd already chosen to leave before Dean returned; the same way he blamed Dean for tricking him with Gadreel, even though he was the one who actually said yes.  And he said yes because he trusted his brother to save him, without asking how, so maybe he was angry at himself for *not* asking and he turned it on Dean.  (That's a pretty common reaction, even in my own family.)  I'm not saying Dean was blameless, but neither was Sam, and I'm tired of hearing him complain about being the victim as if he'd had no choice in the matter.

 

As to the "supposed agreement", that's all it was.  I've never met (or read) anyone who'd ever heard of it before (much less know what was agreed to), so it's obvious it was just added in this episode to give Sam an excuse for not looking and a reason to be angry.  I just pretend the line never existed.  

[shang yiet]

I didn't see it as Sam being 'angry' about Dean returning but I did think he was hiding something. My theory at that time was that he had made a deal to get Dean back and wanted to keep it secret leading to him being defensive. I was expecting a plot twist that never came.

[catrox14]

 

Anyway, what about the supposed agreement not to look for each other? Did not Dean agree to this? How then can he be angry if Sam kept the agreement? "Look, I said not to look for me but I didn't mean it, really!' Strikes me as being rather passive aggressive.

 

 When Dean learned from Sam himself, Dean called him out for it, to his face, directly. Dean said "Yeah and "the agreement was crap and they had always ignored it, because of their deep abiding love for each other'.  Dean was pissed and hurt that Sam didn't look for him.  Sam didn't apologize for his choice and gave his rationale.  How is that being passive-aggressive?

 

 

s to the "supposed agreement", that's all it was.  I've never met (or read) anyone who'd ever heard of it before (much less know what was agreed to), so it's obvious it was just added in this episode to give Sam an excuse for not looking and a reason to be angry.  I just pretend the line never existed.

 

 

The only "agreements" that were ever explicitly stated on screen that I can remember was Dean telling Sam that he couldn't try to get him out of the Hell deal because the crossroads demon told Dean that Sam would drop dead in a second.  I don't know if that counted after Dean went to Hell but Sam still did everything he could to try and make a deal, but no deal was to be had.  Then Sam extracted the deathbed promise from Dean that he would live a normal life with Lisa and not try to get him out of Hell. Dean said straight up he would NEVER agree to not look for him, and he didn't. He spent a year trying to find him whilst living with Lisa.

 

So for me, there was a clear precedent that Dean could reasonably rely upon that Sam WOULD have exhausted all effort or at MINIMUM try until he couldn't, thus Dean's anger and hurt that Sam flat out did not do that, never mind the Kevin aspect that upset Dean too.

 

I feel like the show bringing it up at all opened up a can of worms that I think had been mostly put to the wayside by viewers who mostly IMO decided that Sam was upset and couldn't cope. I don't quite understand why they felt they needed to dredge it up again, unless there is a further end game.  feel like the other shoe is going to drop on this. It feels too purposeful beyond a moment of Lucifer trying to mess with Sam's head to get him to say yes...I'm....leary.

Edited February 2, 2016 by catrox14

[ahrtee]

So let's just chalk it up to bad writing and put the blame on Carver and/or the writers where it belongs.  And hopefully (fingers crossed) they'll drop the lies/anger/resentment/guilt trope once and for all.

[Wynne88]

Honestly, all I thought they needed was a line saying "I looked.  But then I couldn't do it any more." And I think Dean would have accepted that, the same way he accepted Sam saying "You were rotting in hell and there was nothing I could do about it."  There was no blame assigned then.

 

 

Wish they had done this!

[rue721]

 I feel like the show bringing it up at all opened up a can of worms that I think had been mostly put to the wayside by viewers who mostly IMO decided that Sam was upset and couldn't cope. I don't quite understand why they felt they needed to dredge it up again, unless there is a further end game.  feel like the other shoe is going to drop on this. It feels too purposeful beyond a moment of Lucifer trying to mess with Sam's head to get him to say yes...I'm....leary.

 

I agree that Lucifer must have some purpose behind bringing up the Amelia saga in particular. That had NOTHING to do with Lucifer, so it seems like a really weird thing for him to guilt-trip Sam about.

 

As I see it, the issue with the Amelia debacle is that Sam was written UTTERLY out of character. I can't take Sam's s8 actions seriously, because they make no sense in terms of who Sam has been before or since. They're impossible to reconcile with who he is as a character. And not just because Sam loves Dean -- also because Sam is nothing if not stubborn and determined, and I can't really imagine Sam ever just giving up when faced with an obstacle, even a daunting obstacle. Sam's not perfect, and I can imagine him doing awful things like abandoning Kevin or sacrificing other people or overriding Dean's wishes in pursuit of his goal, because he does get tunnel vision and he's stubborn AF. I can't imagine him being like, "eh, enough's enough!" and just giving up on his own mission, though.

 

So personally, I don't get anything out of Sam apologizing for his DGAF attitude in s8. For me, apologies just emphasize that the bizarre, OOC writing that was going on during that time is actually still canon. Imo, either the show should retcon what happened so that it makes more sense (like by telling/showing us that Sam searched for Dean until he literally couldn't), or the show should just leave that whole mess alone so that fans can create their own more logical/sensible head-canon for what happened (like that, in Offscreenville, Sam searched for Dean until he literally couldn't) without that widespread head-canon being undermined onscreen.

 

As for wondering about the show wanting us to side with Lucifer against Sam, I don't know.

 

We've been shown that Dean trusts Casifer and has confided in him (because he trusts Cas). I doubt that Sam is going to trust or confide in Casifer. It'll be a meta reversal of Dean trusting Benny even though Sam was suspicious of him. This time, Dean will be "proven wrong" for being trusting, and Sam will be "proven right." That's not really worth anything to me, but apparently, Sam is on some sort of "Redemption Tour" where he'll repent for all his "bad deeds" (like the Amelia debacle) and redeem himself by being right in the same ways he was wrong before (like by distrusting the "right" people this time).

 

Personally, I disliked Benny and didn't ever understand how Dean got comfortable being partnered up with a vampire. Sorry, but on this show they've gone out of their way to show vampires as sexual predators who are the supernatural equivalents of pedophiles and rapists, and I just can't shake that. Vampires on this show creep me the hell out, and I don't care if one of them is ~a great guy~ aside from the "blood sucking." Same thing with Lucifer, who they constantly emphasize is a rapist (among other things) who tortured Sam as essentially his sex slave. Sorry, but I CAN NOT overlook that, and it actually made me sad and disturbed for Rowena that she would salivate over him. (Aside:  whatever he does, Crowley should not look for his father, because his mother apparently has TERRIBLE taste in men).

 

ETA:

 

Since I see Lucifer as this sexual predator, I see Cas "saying yes" to him in a pretty disturbing light.

 

And am happy that he couldn't make Sam "say yes," lol.

Edited February 2, 2016 by rue721

[Aeryn13]

 

Imo, either the show should retcon what happened so that it makes more sense (like by telling/showing us that Sam searched for Dean until he literally couldn't

 

For me that would have sucked because Sam never once brought it up in Season 8 - and it was the one thing Dean wanted to hear, it wasn`t his problem that Sam didn`t manage, his problem was that Sam never even tried - and just retroactively used to make Dean look bad because he was so mean to poor Sam when Sam did in fact everything in his power. I hate such retcons.

 

 

It'll be a meta reversal of Dean trusting Benny even though Sam was suspicious of him. This time, Dean will be "proven wrong" for being trusting, and Sam will be "proven right." That's not really worth anything to me, but apparently, Sam is on some sort of "Redemption Tour" where he'll repent for all his "bad deeds" (like the Amelia debacle) and redeem himself by being right in the same ways he was wrong before (like by distrusting the "right" people this time).

 

The reason Season 5 never worked as Sam-redemption for me is because if the construct has to be that magically just this time other people get dragged in the mud so the person that is to be redeemed looks better in comparism? That is anti-redemption. If they want to make me dislike a character, that is one of the quickest ways.

Not to mention the situations aren`t at all comparable. Dean doesn`t trust Lucifer, he thinks he is talking to Cas. That is not like say Sam trusting Ruby. If Ruby`s demonic essence had possessed Bobby and "Bobby" had convinced Sam to drink demon blood, allthewhile Sam never knowing it wasn`t actually Bobby, THAT would be the same situation. Because he thought he was talking to someone who is actually trustworthy, just not realizing the possession.

 

 

Sorry, but I CAN NOT overlook that, and it actually made me sad and disturbed for Rowena that she would salivate over him.

 

They were going by the lore of witches making a pact with the/being willing mistresses to the devil. Since Rowena is evil herself, I see no problem with her being attracted to someone evil. She wouldn`t give a flying fuck about what he did to Sam.

[Omegamom]

Yeah, well, angels, by canon, are dicks. Technically, they are required to get permission to occupy a vessel...but, as we've long since seen, there are loopholes. Coercion (Zach et al. trying to force Sam and Dean to say "yes"), trickery (Gadreel), hell, brainwashing in the case of Jimmy Novak--though that was societal brainwashing. So Lucifer pretty much trying to blackmail/coerce someone to be his vessel is just in line with the whole slightly rapey subtext of angels and vessels in the show. Demons are just more open about the whole thing.

Not that that's any better, just more open.

[rue721]

They were going by the lore of witches making a pact with the/being willing mistresses to the devil. Since Rowena is evil herself, I see no problem with her being attracted to someone evil. She wouldn`t give a flying fuck about what he did to Sam.

 

I think they had Rowena salivate over Lucifer, because, as you say, witches are supposedly "mistresses of Satan" -- and also because she's power-hungry, and based on the story she told Crowley about his bio-father, powerful shitheads are actually her type.

 

What with her dorky Super Duper Mega Coven, and her constantly getting foiled by the guys, and her tearful issues with Crowley, Rowena's been pretty humanized, though. She's evil, sure -- but I don't hate her, and I don't particularly like seeing her hurt (and didn't like seeing her killed). YMMV.

 

Anyway, after she got upset talking about that Lord abandoning her while she was still soaked in blood from having his baby, I didn't really like seeing her salivate over someone like Lucifer, who would do the same to her -- and worse. That's why it was sad and disturbing imo. It seemed like part of a pretty human pattern for her to have AWFUL taste in men (or "men").

 

Rowena's an interesting character imo because, while she has supernatural powers, she's fundamentally still a human.

[Aeryn13]

 

She's evil, sure -- but I don't hate her, and I don't particularly like seeing her hurt (and didn't like seeing her killed). YMMV.

 

I don`t really care(d) about her either way. The actress seems super-nice and the character had some fun lines but beyond that, I never got invested in her. Her demise reminded me of those witches who raised Samhain in that Halloween Season 4 episode. One witch was all bouncing with glee over the return of her "master" and he gave that exact same "you shall have your reward bla bla, neck snap" spiel you could see coming a mile away.

 

If someone doesn`t either make sure the party they extend all their loyalties to is at least somewhat invested in them back or, at the very least, learn to read body language and facial/vocal cues, then they get their very deserved Darwin Award. Curse your sudden and unexpected betrayal and all that.   

[Bessie]

When Dean learned from Sam himself, Dean called him out for it, to his face, directly. Dean said "Yeah and "the agreement was crap and they had always ignored it, because of their deep abiding love for each other'. 

This agreement needs to be renegotiated. Clearly neither Dean nor Sam is following the terms. And the renegotiation should happen ON SCREEN.

[catrox14]

 

Personally, I disliked Benny and didn't ever understand how Dean got comfortable being partnered up with a vampire. Sorry, but on this show they've gone out of their way to show vampires as sexual predators who are the supernatural equivalents of pedophiles and rapists, and I just can't shake that. Vampires on this show creep me the hell out, and I don't care if one of them is ~a great guy~ aside from the "blood sucking." Same thing with Lucifer, who they constantly emphasize is a rapist (among other things) who tortured Sam as essentially his sex slave.

 

I think the difference is that Benny helped save Dean's life in Purgatory regardless of why Benny helped, he still helped.  They spent a year together at war protecting each other every day just to live to the next day. And, maybe even more importantly, Benny helped Dean save Cas. That might have meant more to Dean than anything.  It was war. Plain and simple. It was survive at all costs and Dean had an ally.  Dean made an agreement and fulfilled that bargain.  I think Dean would have been an utter fool to not take whatever help he could get in Purgatory. 

[Omegamom]

BTW, Lucifer digging at the Amelia episode? Lucifer, himself, doesn't give a hoot. What he is interested in, is recent things that Sam feels conflicted or guilty about, as those are the things that he can twist or tweak at to make Sam feel like he's changed, that he's not heroic, that he's not willing to sacrifice for the greater good.

So, in the end, Sam's not listening toLucifer, but to his own self-doubt. Ol' Mister Master Manipulator, that's Lucifer.

And, in the end, Sam has matured enough to realize that, yes, he's made some big mistakes, done things that make him doubt himself, but all of that is no reason to say "Yes" to Lucifer.

[catrox14]

I have a question that is driving me crazy.  And maybe I missed something big.

 

Wasn't the spell sigil that Eileen made for trapping a banshee only? If so, why did it trap Sam? 

 

And, in the end, Sam has matured enough to realize that, yes, he's made some big mistakes, done things that make him doubt himself, but all of that is no reason to say "Yes" to Lucifer.

 

Even if it's for "character development" IMO it still seems like it's a can of worms to open again as even Sam's apology is being side-eyed.  The show should have left that sleeping bad dog lie.

[Omegamom]

I dunno. I've heard lots of people echoing my feeling of, "YESSSS!!! About time that was addressed, even if halfheartedly!"

[catrox14]

I dunno. I've heard lots of people echoing my feeling of, "YESSSS!!! About time that was addressed, even if halfheartedly!"

 

I think it's a 50/50 split as are most things when it comes to this show. It really depends on where one lurks and what one reads,  you know?

 

I didn't know there was much of a clamoring for it to be addressed at all at this point, because it had kind of become mostly a dead issue, just accepted as a huge fuck up by Carver.  

 

Then again I will bitch and moan until the end of time until we have ONE FUCKING person on screen besides Jensen via performance mention that Dean was in Hell for 40 years 6 years ago.

[MysteryGuest]

Who knows why they felt the need to address the issue now.  Maybe they've been waiting for an opportunity to give a softer spin to that story line because they know they screwed up.  It was so out of character for Sam, and it made me really dislike him at the beginning of that season.  It would have been one thing if he'd tried to look for Dean and just couldn't continue, but by his own admission, he never looked.  It just seemed so completely selfish.  For all we know Jared's been bugging them to let Sam redeem himself a little.  I guess we'll see whether there's some bigger meaning as the season progresses.

Edited February 3, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[AwesomO4000]

I think it's a 50/50 split as are most things when it comes to this show. It really depends on where one lurks and what one reads,  you know?

 

I didn't know there was much of a clamoring for it to be addressed at all at this point, because it had kind of become mostly a dead issue, just accepted as a huge fuck up by Carver.  

 

Actually, I was one of those people who was happy they finally addressed it, and has been actively asking for them to address it (here at least - I don't really go anywhere else), because in my opinion, the show didn't really let it lie dead. They brought it up repeatedly, because that seems - to me - to be their MO when it comes to Sam during the Carver years.

 

(Multiple examples taken over to the "Supernatural Bitterness..." thread just to be safe.)

 

I realize this is just my opinion here, but I do find it interesting that past things like this which are most often brought up are mistakes that Sam made and/or are things that are shifted to imply Sam's fault somehow. But I put this mostly on Carver, because he not only doesn't let these things lie, he often makes them bigger.

 

Then again I will bitch and moan until the end of time until we have ONE FUCKING person on screen besides Jensen via performance mention that Dean was in Hell for 40 years 6 years ago.

 

I expanded on this in the "Supernatural Bitterness..." thread, but the main gist is that it's probably a good thing that they don't bring it up - see the above "they won't let it die" in reference to Sam. Also acknowledging that Dean was in hell for 40 years hints at the reasons why Dean was in hell for 40 years, and that might complicate the general "Sam started the apocalypse" narrative the show has been going on for quite a while now. So, in this case, my theory is (and I stress that this is only my theory) the writers seem to think it's best to let it lie, and when Dean's hell experience is mentioned - such as in "Hello, Cruel World" - the time frame isn't mentioned so there are no messy references or questions to why Dean was in hell that long.

 

And I don't think it's so much a "we want to blame Sam" thing as much as they don't want to deal with the complications of having Dean also involved in starting the apocalypse but it not really being his fault. It's easier and simpler to just have the one who made the bad decisions - Sam - be responsible and leave it at that.

[rue721]

I think the difference is that Benny helped save Dean's life in Purgatory regardless of why Benny helped, he still helped.

 

Sometimes terrible people are nice to you, personally. That doesn't mean they're not terrible people. That means you, personally, have the luck to be in their good graces for some reason. That's how I saw Benny. I DGAF that he was nice to Dean or helped Dean or whatever. So what that Benny is capable of being nice/helpful/friendly to somebody? That doesn't make him not-a-vampire.

 

I don't have a problem with Dean taking advantage of Benny's help. And since Dean isn't a psychopath, of course he was going to "bond" and create some kind of emotional connection with Benny as a result of that. I do have a problem with it being "bad" of Sam somehow that he didn't trust or like Benny, though. I see zero reason why Sam should have liked or trusted him, tbh. And not out of ~jealousy~ or some kind of weird brother dynamic, but because Benny was a VAMPIRE, which means that, within the world of the show, having certain terrible assumptions about Benny (like that he's a sexual predator) is justified.

 

YMMV, of course. I know Benny was very popular. It just always boggled my mind. 

 

BTW, Lucifer digging at the Amelia episode? Lucifer, himself, doesn't give a hoot. What he is interested in, is recent things that Sam feels conflicted or guilty about, as those are the things that he can twist or tweak at to make Sam feel like he's changed, that he's not heroic, that he's not willing to sacrifice for the greater good.

 

I agree that Lucifer doesn't have some personal stake in who Sam was dating while Dean was in Purgatory, and is bringing it up just to manipulate Sam. It just seems like a really random thing for him to pick at imo.

 

The answer to why he picked it is probably simplistic:  that Sam's secret shame is that he didn't put bros before hos or whatever when Dean was in Purgatory, and the show decided, "what better thing for Lucifer to taunt him about than his secret shame?"

 

My issue is that I just don't think that Lucifer would glom onto that "betrayal" as the thing to taunt Sam with, because it doesn't have anything to do with Lucifer, so Lucifer has no context for it or personal interest in it. I think Lucifer would be more likely to pick something that he had some firsthand knowledge of and felt at least some personal connection to. Lucifer likes when Sam sees "his side," so I actually would have though he'd have picked a situation where Sam was TOO obedient or had TOO much faith (in other words, a situation where Sam wasn't enough like Lucifer) rather than a situation where he "rebelled" or was too independent (in other words, a situation where Sam acted more like Lucifer would have).

[catrox14]

Sometimes terrible people are nice to you, personally. That doesn't mean they're not terrible people. That means you, personally, have the luck to be in their good graces for some reason. That's how I saw Benny. I DGAF that he was nice to Dean or helped Dean or whatever. So what that Benny is capable of being nice/helpful/friendly to

 

Dean was the only human in Purgatory. EVERYTHING was trying to kill him, literally. EVERY kind of monster. Dean wanted out of Purgatory and Benny knew how to get him out but Dean stayed for a year looking for Cas. Benny stood by him. It was a win-win for both of them. 

 

Sam's attitude towards Benny always baffled me because he was the one that saved Lenore, a vampire and actually helped her get out of town. Cas is the one that ended up killing Lenore.  So what changed Sam's attitude towards vampires like Lenore who weren't killing humans and Benny, who also wasn't killing humans once he was topside?

Edited February 3, 2016 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

Vampires on this show creep me the hell out, and I don't care if one of them is ~a great guy~ aside from the "blood sucking."

 

I meant to comment on this earlier and got distracted.

 

I pretty much agree. It was extremely interesting to me how this show made me entirely look at vampires differently than on other shows. I was (and still am) a fan of Buffy, and found some of them - Spike in particular - very interesting and complex characters. But vampires on Supernatural? Skeevy is the word that came to mind from the very first episode they were in. From the music choice to the drinking and miniskirt dancing of that episode... yup skeevy. Their pursuits are skeevy - sex, violence, and just debauchery in general.

 

Even Lenore - who was interesting to me, and I could see why Sam didn't want to kill her - still wasn't exactly "good." She had her own reasons for taking her stand, but she was mostly interested in being left alone to live her life. And you could tell she was almost bitter at having to suppress her own instincts (which made her interesting to me) and have to speak to the "humans" she saw as mostly below her. But she was very much the exception.

 

The rest of the vampires we saw up until season 8 - total scuzzbags. And the ones from that Twilight episode... just no.

 

I was never really sure what to make of Benny. I got such mixed messages from the show concerning him, and it mostly bugged that his characteristics were there mostly to create drama between Sam and Dean, and not because he was a realized, independent character on his own. In my opinion, Benny should've been another kind of monster - maybe one we hadn't seen before - so there wouldn't be those previous associations we had with vampires. And especially with Dean's previous awful association with vampires and what they did to him. Ugh.

 

And your comparison with Lucifer is very true. Lucifer, too, is entirely slimy - and in a way a vampire of another sort. He pretends to be supportive, act like what he's doing is in your best interest, but nope: he's the abusive boyfriend just waiting for you to fall for his manipulations, and the moment things aren't  how he wants and/or he doesn't get the validation he thinks he deserves... he'll make you pay with abuse and then suck the will to live right out of you. (I watch too much Dr. Phil ; ) ) For me he's a great villain in that way... just egotistical, smarmy, and all around awful.

 

I was proud of Sam for saying "No." I forgave him for letting Lucifer get to him, because Lucifer did have decades to learn how to push Sam's buttons, so at least Sam chose what he let get to him, and took steps to make sure Lucifer didn't stay in his head long by addressing it with Dean and keeping it from festering inside him. Good job, Sam.

Edited February 3, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

 

I do have a problem with it being "bad" of Sam somehow that he didn't trust or like Benny, though. I see zero reason why Sam should have liked or trusted him, tbh.

 

A natural reaction would have been to be grateful to him for getting Dean out of Purgatory. For Dean, there are always lesson episodes where he has to fall all over himself to thank and worship people who helped Sam, recently with Sully. It even happened with Ruby. Who was a demon who, last Dean saw her before hell, gleefully screamed at him how much she wanted him to burn there. When he came back, he was supposed to make nice. At least Benny hadn`t personally done anything to Sam before.

 

Then again, Sam looked anything but grateful Dean was out of Purgatory in the first half of Season 2 - sour, is the word I`d use to describe his mood - so no wonder that he was resentful to Benny as well. Allthewhile he didn`t really want to hunt with Dean during that time and made several remarks about leaving the life. Yet with Benny, out came the "break up with your mistress" ultimatum. What was this? I don`t want him but I`ll be damned if anyone else gets to have him. Jesus. 

 

 

I forgave him for letting Lucifer get to him, because Lucifer did have decades to learn how to push Sam's buttons, so at least Sam chose what he let get to him, and took steps to make sure Lucifer didn't stay in his head long by addressing it with Dean and keeping it from festering inside him. Good job, Sam.

 

They don`t know yet Cas is Casifer but in the recent episode not one PEEP was made about the entire Lucifer predicament only coming about because Sam thought God must be talking to him. 

 

Cas was majorly dumb but Sam also set the stage by being dumb before him. I guess this will be brushed aside and ignored completely. If Dean had done something like that, we`d never hear the end of it on the show.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Aeryn13

[AwesomO4000]

They don`t know yet Cas is Casifer but in the recent episode not one PEEP was made about the entire Lucifer predicament only coming about because Sam thought God must be talking to him.

 

The "Good job, Sam" was only for his not saying "yes" to Lucifer. Of course Sam was wrong about the messages in his head. The show had Dean mention again and again that he shouldn't listen to the "visions," and so of course Sam shouldn't. I called that one in the second episode. I'll actually be surprised if it doesn't come up again myself.

 

Cas was majorly dumb but Sam also set the stage by being dumb before him. I guess this will be brushed aside and ignored completely. If Dean had done something like that, we`d never hear the end of it on the show.

 

I don't know about that. My impression is that if Dean did something like that - which he likely wouldn't anyway, because Dean is generally given uncanny instincts about those kinds of supernatural things,* but generally it isn't mentioned anymore or turns out to be the "right" thing to do anyway or the other person would do the same thing ("I lied), so the criticism of Dean was unfounded, and/or someone else screws up worse, so they get the blame instead, like Sam starting the apocalypse in season 4 (Dean making the deal which lead to accidentally breaking the first seal is brushed aside) and causing Amara (taking on the mark without knowing the consequences is made minor and not really mentioned).

 

If Sam recklessly going to the cage is brushed aside, in my opinion, it will be an unusual case of Sam being the beneficiary of Castiel screwing up worse this time more than Sam not being called out for his mistakes - which in general Sam often is called out for them... Like Sam trusting Ruby (still brought up 4 or 5 seasons later) and raising Lucifer (ditto). But miles vary.

 

*(example: Dean being right in trusting that Naomi was the one telling the truth despite a mountain of evidence to the contrary, including her trying like hell to have Castiel kill Dean, but of course in this one thing, Dean was right and she was telling the truth.)

[Aeryn13]

 

Dean is generally given uncanny instincts about those kinds of supernatural things

 

I agree that he has them, he is also more sceptic in general. But still most often ignored, at least at first. Which IMO show often treats as the right thing to do because he can not make a good argument about his stance. And when he does turn out to be right, it`s not acknowledged really. 

[catrox14]

 

Dean is generally given uncanny instincts about those kinds of supernatural things

 

I think calling his instincts "uncanny" really sells Dean short.

 

Dean has virtually done nothing but hunt monsters for his entire life. That's like 30 of his 37 years  on this planet. 30+ years of gaining knowledge through research and actual hunting which has honed that "uncanny" instinct. It's an earned instinct is what I'm saying vs uncanny, IMO

Edited February 3, 2016 by catrox14

[SueB]

Since Sam was acting withdrawn at the beginning of the episode, it would have been a dick move by Dean to pile on the guilt with "I told you so."   And Crowley actually provided a level of condemnation when he said "This has been a horrible train wreck. So we're done. Team up, over." Since the whole "talk to Satan" thing was Sam's idea and Crowley declared it a train wreck.  Now does Crowley's opinion matter to Sam?  Generally no, but Sam would recognize that Crowley's statement was "truth" and a condemnation of Sam's choice.  OTOH, I'd like to point out that it DID accomplish 2 things: 1) identified that Rowena was in cahoots with Lucifer, and 2) a powerful evil player (Rowena) is off the board (maybe... it's Supernatural, after all). I'm hoping they got the Book of the Damned still in the Bunker. 

 

I think the next time Sam or Dean MIGHT reference what happened is if someone mentions God again. Most likely a mytharc episode.  And it's likely (at best) to be a passing "yeah, causing thinking God is going to help worked out so well last time."  But personally, I feel no need for score-keeping bon mots.  I find it petty and doesn't further the plot.  It's been acknowledged on screen as a "train wreck".  Good enough for me.

 

Oh, and I agree, Dean has an superior instincts (I agree with catrox, they may have started uncanny but now they are earned).  I think that's canon at least through S8.  Once the whole Gadreel thing and Mark of Cain thing happened, I'm not sure it's been all that "right".  Now, however, in a "reboot" to S1 - ish.  There's an indication that the instinct is there.  OTOH, his judgement with Amara is at least suspect.  And they may not openly say "Dean has good instincts" on a frequent basis but at least on multiple occasions Dean has been acknowledged as the better hunter. And not just because of his higher kill numbers (DD-stats shout out!).  In one of Aeryn's favorite speech, Sam acknowledged Dean was better than himself and their father. Bobby acknowledged it in another 'favorite' speech as well as when forced to tell the truth in S6.  Now in that latter case, he said Sam was currently better -- but we know now that was because he was soulless at the time.  My point to all this being -- it's part of why Dean is the one both literally and figuratively in the driver's seat.  They've done a better job of balance in S10/S11 but Dean is the one they turn to for the final decision (when they are working together).  I'll summarize it this way: Sam has long been acknowledged to have the "book smarts" but Dean's instincts as a hunter are at least and equalizer in the equation.  If you MUST keep score, that is.

Edited February 3, 2016 by SueB

[catrox14]

It's not about keeping score for me. It's about the shift in Dean's characterization from s1 to now. I'll take my response to the All Seasons thread. 

[AwesomO4000]

I think calling his instincts "uncanny" really sells Dean short.

 

Dean has virtually done nothing but hunt monsters for his entire life. That's like 30 of his 37 years  on this planet. 30+ years of gaining knowledge through research and actual hunting which has honed that "uncanny" instinct. It's an earned instinct is what I'm saying vs uncanny, IMO

 

Further explanation and apology over on the "All Episodes Talk" thread.

[MysteryGuest]

As fans of this show and these characters, it's easy to get caught up in who did what to whom.  Unfortunately, I'm not convinced that the writers are as invested in consistently keeping the boys "in character' as we are.  I think they regularly have both of them do things that don't make sense, or that completely go against who we know them to be, just as a means to an end.  Season 8 is the perfect example of this.  Sam's character was barely recognizable in a lot of that season, and they just didn't give a believable enough reason why.

[catrox14]

Hmmmm,  so I was thinking more about why the tombstone was so prominently featured in the episode and whether that was intentional or not.  It had the date of death as March 18, 2016 which is several weeks ahead of our actual time. 

 

Then today I saw a tweet from Danneel Harris Ackles with her and JJ (really cute BTW)  and then she tweeted about Josh Gad having a new movie coming out and thought that's odd and wondered if maybe she's got a role in that movie so I looked at IMDB and lo behold...

 

March 18 is Danneel Harris Ackles birthdate. 

 

I have no idea if that's meaningful or not but I got a bizarre chuckle out of it.

[SueB]

*shuffles feet*

mmmm.... I rewatched last week and forgot to mention that it's 2015 vice 2016.  So the connection to Daneels' birthday is still there, but it's not a future date.