All Episodes Talk: Breadstix

[jaytee1812]

I always detested how Mike in particular was made a mouthpiece for Rachel Berry=special snowflake in Props. And that after Tina was so supportive of his dreams in Asian F.

Mike's character was every Asian stereotype you could find. He's so nice he's practically submissive. He takes his mom on dates, he rarely argues with Tina. He's prepared to give up his dancing dreams to go to medical school like his father wants until his father changes his mind, not because Mike stood up to him - Tina did.

The way this show treats men of colour is problematic at best. Black men are either invisible in Matt's case, or every negative stereotype you can find for young, black men as in Jake's (lazy, promiscuous, always in trouble, only good at dance, saved by the good white girl). It's just another case of this show consistently saying with both the characters and who portrays them that white men are superior.

[jaytee1812]

From the spoiler thread:

The Asian stereotype most typically would have Mike portrayed as a nerdy kinda asexual guy. But they had him on the football team and standing up to bullies on Kurt's behalf. I don't think he was always submissive. To me Mike was just a nice guy that wanted to make his parents happy, which can be an Asian stereotype but it's not unique to Asian kids (living up to parents expectations). They could have left off the medical school thing though. That was a bit much. I mean it wasn't perfect, but I still think he's better written than most of the other characters. Baby steps I guess.

Mike's not bad the problem is that for the majority of the series he's the only man of colour on screen. In a see of diverse men of colour he would be fine but he's not, the only other men of colour onscreen have been either invisible as in Matt Rutherford's case or every negative stereotype for young black men as in Jake's. And again it's against the back drop of 'aren't white men really awesome'.

Case in point. Marley asks Jake if he would ever hit her just because he likes a Chris Brown song, and gets a ton of shit for performing Bobby Brown song. In the episode after Finn beats up Rachel's ex because... I'm still not sure why. But I got the impression I was suppose to think it was a good thing.

[dizzyizzy01]

Well, yes, the writing on this show is overall terrible, but I'm just saying I wouldn't call mike a giant stereotype that is composed of every Asian stereotype ever. He was written as a fairly normal guy.

[jaytee1812]

Well, yes, the writing on this show is overall terrible, but I'm just saying I wouldn't call mike a giant stereotype that is composed of every Asian stereotype ever. He was written as a fairly normal guy.

One stereotype they couldn't get away with would be making Mike asexual. I mean he's played by Harry Shum. Although I always found it weird no other girl was ever seen as interested in him. Or that it was acknowledged Tina, a nerdy 'loser' was dating the hottest boy in school.

Or is it just me who would step over, round, through and passed every other man on Glee to get to Harry Shum (with the exception of Jacob Artist!)

[caracas1914]

I would have personally run over with a truck Finn/Sam a few dozen times to get to Michael Chang, just saying. 

[whyme]

When did Unholy Trinity become a  big thing?  I know it has been mentioned here and there, but did we really see Quinn hang around Brittany and Santana all that much?  In season 1, that is how they joined Glee Club, and the end of Season 3 they mentioned it and now for reunion episodes they make a big deal out of the 3 of them, like they were joined at the hip Is it just to give them a reason to sing together?

[shantown]

When did Unholy Trinity become a  big thing?  I know it has been mentioned here and there, but did we really see Quinn hang around Brittany and Santana all that much?  In season 1, that is how they joined Glee Club, and the end of Season 3 they mentioned it and now for reunion episodes they make a big deal out of the 3 of them, like they were joined at the hip Is it just to give them a reason to sing together?

There were a few other UHT moments - off the top of my head I can think of Santana/Brittany comforting Quinn in S2E22 and S/B approaching Quinn to rejoin the New Directions in S3E01. I think it was mostly background interactions between the characters that were really embraced and blown up by the fandom.

[ancslove]

They've been on-and-off frenemies throughout the show, and I can see them all getting back to McKinley and falling into old patterns and habits.  Realistically, Quinn probably doesn't have much to do with Brittana anymore, when they're not all back in Ohio together.  But serving under Sue likely bonded them through trauma, if nothing else!  Actually, I wish the show had done more, or anything, with Quinn's resentment of Brittany and Santana dropping her when she got pregnant.  There were hints that might have been part of her breakdown in early Season 3, but nothing solid.  They abandoned her when she needed them most.

[jaytee1812]

When did Unholy Trinity become a  big thing?  I know it has been mentioned here and there, but did we really see Quinn hang around Brittany and Santana all that much?  In season 1, that is how they joined Glee Club, and the end of Season 3 they mentioned it and now for reunion episodes they make a big deal out of the 3 of them, like they were joined at the hip Is it just to give them a reason to sing together?

There were moments but there were as many when Quinn and Santana fought over boys/being head cheerleader/prom queen. I don't ever remember a single moment between Brittany and Quinn that didn't involve Santana.

Honestly I think it's nostalgia for something that was never there. As far as I recall after their audition for glee the UHT never perform together as a trio til season 4.

They've been on-and-off frenemies throughout the show, and I can see them all getting back to McKinley and falling into old patterns and habits.  Realistically, Quinn probably doesn't have much to do with Brittana anymore, when they're not all back in Ohio together.  But serving under Sue likely bonded them through trauma, if nothing else!  Actually, I wish the show had done more, or anything, with Quinn's resentment of Brittany and Santana dropping her when she got pregnant.  There were hints that might have been part of her breakdown in early Season 3, but nothing solid.  They abandoned her when she needed them most.

And were both having sex with the father of her child!

[caracas1914]

I thought an interesting premise that they sort of weaved in and out of Glee (inconsistently) was that Santana envied and coveted Quinn's blond goddess status at McKinley, which was sort of odd considering that Quinn  had as big a fall from grace as anyone at McKinley.  However Santana was portrayed as a bit insecure in McKinely for all her bluster and bravado, with a tenuous link with Quinn.

 

Of course they had Santana/Quinn go all college experimentation sex in "I, Do";  which unfortunately timing wise,  they had saddled Brittany with Sam at the time so she was a non factor,  a crying shame since  the ostensibly "bisexual' gal of the Unholy Trinity should have been with  gay Santana and straight Quinn to make a genuine alliance of the unholy trinity.

 

I mean if you're going to do college experiment sex, go big or go home!

Edited January 4, 2015 by caracas1914

[ancslove]

I imagine that Santana (way before the start of the show) latched onto Quinn when she saw that Quinn was the Cheerio Golden Girl.  She followed Quinn, wanting to ride her coattails and waiting for an opportunity to topple her, and brought Brittany along for the ride.  I do think Glee Club kept the girls together, because they were still in close proximity even after Quinn's fall from grace.  Plus, unfortunately for Santana, Sue was still drawn to Quinn and still upheld Quinn's former supremacy as the bar to meet.  (I think Sue really believed that Quinn would be her biggest triumph and successor.)  

 

On another note, I still mourn that we never got Quinn and Rachel teaming up to take down Sue.  Quinn was the only one who could ever beat Sue at her own game, and Rachel was the one whose future Sue was jeopardizing by trying to end Glee.

[jaytee1812]

On another note, I still mourn that we never got Quinn and Rachel teaming up to take down Sue.  Quinn was the only one who could ever beat Sue at her own game, and Rachel was the one whose future Sue was jeopardizing by trying to end Glee.

This is the thing I find strange about Glee. I see no evidence Rachel's future, professionally anyway, was affected positively by the glee club. She ended up at the end of high school where she would've anyway.

I actually think there's an argument she would've been better professionally without glee. She had three years of everyone buckling to her pretty much all of the time and took that diva attitude to NYADA and then Broadway.

[Hana Chan]

Without New Directions, Rachel would have had none of the performance opportunities that she used to propel her to her (admittedly outlandish) professional accomplishments. This is the girl who in season one had no performance venue beyond her Myspace page. She hadn't gotten any of the community theater roles she auditioned for. Might she have found a venue that would have given her some credentials beyond dance and singling lessons from the time she was an infant? Maybe, but with her obnoxious attitude (which working with ND tempered to some degree), it's no certain thing.

 

So while I have no issue with the idea that eventually Rachel might have gotten accepted into a prestigious performance school and eventually gotten her big Broadway role. it would have been a much longer and rougher road. And given her tendency to fold like an old lawn chair in the face of adversity, she would have been without the enormous support that she received from her teammates. The girl who completely emotionally collapsed after her NYADA audition didn't go well might have eventually rallied herself, but again it's no sure thing. And she wouldn't have had Tina pleading her case or the rest of the choir willing to use their Nationals performance as a way to give her a second chance without going though the tedious application process again.

[jaytee1812]

Maybe. I just think the thing that was never in doubt was her talent, it was her attitude that was the problem. I thought glee encouraged her divaness, not discouraged.

Although I suppose that depended on what the writers were saying that week.

[jaytee1812]

When I was looking up stuff for the dancing thread I was reading an interview with Jacob Artist. He said the last member of the regular glee cast he met was Mark Salling. Is it just me that finds it weird they didn't have them read together. From his description of the audition I don't think he read with anyone which I assume is true for the rest.

I mean I guess I can see onscreen they don't care if relationship chemistry works or not, but I assumed that they were at least trying.

[whyme]

Of the original cast, no one did any chemistry testing.  We know that Dean Geyer tested with Lea, and I think Jacob picked Melissa, but that is it.

[jaytee1812]

Of the original cast, no one did any chemistry testing.  We know that Dean Geyer tested with Lea, and I think Jacob picked Melissa, but that is it.

Never heard that about Jacob and Melissa (not doubting, just never read it before). I never thought they had much romantic chemistry. Would've much preferred them as friends.

They tested Dean Geyer's chemistry and Lea and still cast him?!!

[shantown]

 

When I was looking up stuff for the dancing thread I was reading an interview with Jacob Artist. He said the last member of the regular glee cast he met was Mark Salling. Is it just me that finds it weird they didn't have them read together. From his description of the audition I don't think he read with anyone which I assume is true for the rest.

I think that was another huge missed opportunity. Not only to have Puck and Jake interact more, but to do it while they were both in HS together.

[whyme]

Yep, that was the ironic part, Dean was going around saying how much chemistry he had with Lea, and, personally, I never saw it.  I did not think much of him as an actor, that is for sure. I just remember how RIB kept saying how much we were going to like Brody, yada yada.  

[jaytee1812]

I think that was another huge missed opportunity. Not only to have Puck and Jake interact more, but to do it while they were both in HS together.

I love Puck and Jake scenes. Jake's almost permanent eye roll at him was spot on. (Actually I love Jake's WTF looks at Blam too).

It seem like between season 4 and 5 they literally forgot that Puck and Jake were related. On The Quarterback, 100 and New Directions there's no indication they even know each other. I mean I'm not expecting a storyline but a hug, a hand on Puck's shoulder, defending him when Santana accuses him of stealing the jacket, or Puck saying goodbye before he leaves. And again not a storyline but a line from Puck acknowledging Jake/Marley's breakup and Jake's reaction to Puck/Quinn.

[camussie]

Matt Rutherford is back, so he's one of the bullies, and Mike's not there... Sometimes I would like to believe glee isn't racist (or misogynist) but then they do stuff like this.

 

 

I don't see how having Finn, their lead male, originally be the jock who was uneasy with bullying was racist. It wasn't as if the other bullies were only people of color.  Karofsky was the biggest bully and he was white.  Other nameless jocks who slushied people were white.  If they blatantly rewrite Puck as the "bully who actually uneasy with it" I don't see that as racist either.  More like he was the next most featured jock over the years and also Finn's best friend.  

 

I also be honest and say I feel what some are seeing as racist is thinking Glee should have been an ensemble show when it never was.  It was always a show with 2-3 leads.  By season 2 one of those leads was a gay male character (Kurt)  and by season 3 one of those leads was a latina female (Santana) and the lead that got demoted to make room for them was a straight while male (Will).  Unfortunately in season 4 they both were demoted but then again so was Finn by 410 and the show essentially became the Blam! show with a side of Marley in McKinley and the Rachel show in NYC.  

 

Now of course there was racist writing throughout the years (calling women of color lazy in comparison to Rachel is the most blatant to me as was some of writing for Jake) but the mere fact that the characters of color were supporting is not racist.  

Edited January 5, 2015 by camussie

[jaytee1812]

I don't see how having Finn, their lead male, originally be the jock who was uneasy with bullying was racist. It wasn't as if the other bullies were only people of color.  Karofsky was the biggest bully and he was white.  Other nameless jocks who slushied people were white.

It's not that. Onscreen you have white men who were bullies, white men who were bullied, and a couple who were both or neither.

Part of the problem is, over six seasons we only have three men of colour so it not like there was much option to show different sides. But as with its female characters, the men of colour on this show have little boxes they need to stay in and right now the show is basically saying black men are violent, Asian men can't be. I doubt it's deliberate, I doubt they are that ignorant, but it's how the cookie has crumbled.

[camussie]

I think all of the characters, including white males, where put into little boxes.  Kurt was put into the longsuffering gay man box.  Sam has been put into the designated boyfriend of ND box.  Finn was put into the destined to never leave Lima box not to mention "we want to do a PSA so let's have him say something offensive even though we dealt with that issue regarding him more than once already" box.  That is because these writers have no ability to write complex characterizations

 

Really the one character who seemed to evolve in a positive direction was Terri who went from being crazy to actually being nice and leaving on her own terms.  

Edited January 5, 2015 by camussie

[SevenStars]

It's not that. Onscreen you have white men who were bullies, white men who were bullied, and a couple who were both or neither.

Part of the problem is, over six seasons we only have three men of colour so it not like there was much option to show different sides. But as with its female characters, the men of colour on this show have little boxes they need to stay in and right now the show is basically saying black men are violent, Asian men can't be. I doubt it's deliberate, I doubt they are that ignorant, but it's how the cookie has crumbled.

 

I don't think the show is saying black men are violent because they had Sam go after Shane's girl and Shane never even threaten Sam. Instead, we had him give Sam/Mercedes a friendly wave after Mercedes told him that Sam helped her cheat on him. If the writers were really going for this stereotype, Samcedes/Shancedes story-line would have been totally different. It would have been realistic for Shane to go after Sam, but I'm grateful the writers didn't do this because of the stereotype that is already out there, costing black men their lives.  

[jaytee1812]

I don't think the show is saying black men are violent because they had Sam go after Shane's girl and Shane never even threaten Sam. Instead, we had him give Sam/Mercedes a friendly wave after Mercedes told him that Sam helped her cheat on him. If the writers were really going for this stereotype, Samcedes/Shancedes story-line would have been totally different. It would have been realistic for Shane to go after Sam, but I'm grateful the writers didn't do this because of the stereotype that is already out there, costing black men their lives.

Like I say I don't think it's deliberate. To be fair I think the writers are morons though. And Shane was a placeholder character, not a regular.

Part of the problem is though that Glee hasn't had many men of colour in New Directions over the years. Only season 1 has there being more than 1 (and we're now down to 0), so you don't get that broad spectrum you do with the White men. I said earlier Jake was every negative stereotype of young black men they could find, he's lazy, promiscuous, and regularly in fights. There's no balance to that with say a nerdy black guy who is a straight A student and a Lord of the Rings fan.

Think of the difference if the only white man onscreen was Sam, is this guy an idiot or do the writers think all white guys are idiots

[camussie]

They seem to think all white  jocks are dumb i.e Finn and Sam and to a lesser degree Puck.  I would argue that their blatant attempt to simply slot Sam in Finn's role shows that they think white jocks are interchangeable boxes.  The problem is Glee used to write the stereotypes ironically For example. Finn started out being dumb as a post but for most of the first season he showed a pretty high emotional IQ.  Since RM and team couldn't sustain characterization past that first season that all went out the window.  That isn't racist as much as bad writing that affects every character.

Edited January 5, 2015 by camussie

[jaytee1812]

They seem to think all white  jocks are dumb i.e Finn and Sam and to a lesser degree Puck.  I would argue that their blatant attempt to simply slot Sam in Finn's role shows that they think white jocks are interchangeable boxes.

But they're balanced out by Kurt, Blaine, Artie, Will, Joe, & Ryder and whatever new horrors they inflict on us. And jocks are one type of white man on screen they're not the only white man on screen.

[SevenStars]

But they're balanced out by Kurt, Blaine, Artie, Will, Joe, & Ryder and whatever new horrors they inflict on us. And jocks are one type of white man on screen they're not the only white man on screen.

 

This is what makes all the different I think. By giving us so many diverse example of white men, we can't stereotype them and say they are all this or that because we can see that is not true.  But with poc, we can't do that because there are barely any off them on our screen in diverse roles. Most of them are put in the same box, no matter what show they are in.

[jaytee1812]

From the Dancing thread:

I think they didn't want to do that because it would have make Rachel less of a "special snowflake" and the writers wanted us to believe that Rachel was perfect in everything except her personal relationship with people. The writers wanted us to think that was Rachel's only flaw, therefore, those who were going up against her weren't better than her, they were just jealous of her and hated her personality. The writers wanted us to think that Rachel's personality is the reason people like Mercedes was always challenging her, not because Mercedes might have actually been more talented than Rachel. Therefore, Rachel always beating Mercedes for the spot-light one way or another, was not only fair but right.

This. Rachel always wins when it comes to performing. And it gives the effect of making her look like a spoilt brat and Will a weak teacher who bended to her will (no pun intended). Even when the others do get a chance, like The Troubletones they have to get Rachel's blessing. WTF?

I had no problem with Rachel as the lead but the only competitions she doesn't have the lead in are sectionals in seasons 2 and 3, so 75% she has a solo or duet. I actually think it was a problem with Finn too. I'd like to have heard more from Puck, Mike and Artie. But it was the way everyone else was dismissed as not as good as Rachel that made it worse.

Edited January 5, 2015 by jtrattray

[camussie]

I think Artie and maybe Puck and Kurt should have sung more lead but not Mike (although with Kurt the character himself seemed to considered the females his counterparts and competition).  Harry Shum is a very talented dancer and can be passable singer but it definitely isn't his forte which was why I thought Valerie was such a good addition in "Special Education."  It allowed the dancers to shine.  Still Finn nor any of the guys ever sang a solo competition number even as Finn usually sang lead male in most of the group competition numbers.  Given that I have always said that Kevin was the most talented male singer among the "kids" I always thought it was bunk he didn't lead in more group numbers and that he never had a solo competition number. 

Edited January 5, 2015 by camussie

[jaytee1812]

I think Artie and maybe Puck and Kurt should have sung more lead but not Mike.  Harry Shum is a very talented dancer and can be passable singer but it definitely isn't his forte which was why I thought Valerie was such a good addition in "Special Education."  It allowed the dancers to shine.  Still Finn (nor any of the guys) every got a solo competition number even as Finn usually sang lead in most of the group competition numbers.  Given that I have always said that Kevin was the most talented male singer among the "kids" I always thought it was bunk he didn't lead in more group numbers and that he never had a solo competition number.

He was fine in ABC/Man in the Mirror. I don't mean whole solo or duet, but a few more lines here and there. I mean they let Finn and Sam dance.

[camussie]

It was pretty well established cannon that Mike didn't consider himself a singer and wasn't all that comfortable singing so I had no issue that he only had a few solo lines here and there.  My issue was more that Artie was featured more.  As for Puck I go back and forth on it.  He was usually the "second chair" male in most of the group competition numbers Finn led at least until Blaine got there (much like Santana was usually second chair female) so there was that but I still think we should have heard more from him.  

Edited January 5, 2015 by camussie

[jaytee1812]

In principal I think you're right. In practice it would've irritated me no end! But that's just because I can't stand Artie! I like Kevin McHale, and I like a lot of the pop/rock stuff he sings. Not a fan of his soul/r'n'b stuff though.

[caracas1914]

The problem I had with Kurt singing so little, in competitions along with Mercedes initially for Season 1/2, was that it was an ongoing SL arc that he was the only guy on ND who had the ambition and drive to compete and want solos/spotlight for  competitions.  This was established early in season 1, so unlike Sam,  Harry, Artie and Puck it was part of Kurt's persona, and the show as usual, gave an inadvertent message by not ever giving him that that unless you fit the traditional male  image you would be sidelined.  

 

With Kurt I always felt the show was planning to give him something in these competitions (and even some Kurt fans could get annoying saying things like "Without a doubt, Kurt is getting a role in the next big competition) , teasing a big payoff for him and then somebody else had to be highlighted.   Puck got shafted as badly but he seemed indifferent to being in the spotlight, yet ironically him and Kurt were probably the best team players and it got them bupkus. That is why the conclusion of the Troubletones story left a bad taste with me.

 

Glee did even worse in a way, by implying that if Kurt  hadn't gone to Dalton he would have had a solo, or worse yet, if he put on a dress and played the transgender role.

Edited January 5, 2015 by caracas1914

[jaytee1812]

I don't think there was anything inadvertent about it. Kurt was explicitly told on a number of occasions he wasn't masculine enough, or too feminine. That to get solos or big roles he had to be straight or straight acting like Blaine.*

*the show obviously thought Blaine was straight acting, me not so much!

[caracas1914]

That's why while people (including the showrunners) like to pat the show on the back for their "inclusiveness" at the same time the show kept on reinforcing that the successful people are the one who adhere to and fit a certain mold.

 

So how did that message make Glee groundbreaking?

[Hana Chan]

The show had a real problem - they had a group of lead performers that storyline-wise, they wanted to feature in these big performances (because so often the competitions marked the climaxes of the storylines, or at least important high points). To a large degree, this justified giving Rachel (and Finn for duets) a large prominent role.

 

That justification, however, gets tossed out in season three when Kurt had a long and ongoing conflict the Sebastian and it was ramping up that Regionals, where ND would be facing the Warblers, would be the climax of that storyline. It would have made sense for Kurt to have a prominent role in their performance. Instead not only did he not have a solo or a few solo lines in the group number, but he never actually stood on the stage! Between Rachel's solo and the TroubleTones group number, none of the guys performed in anything but the final group number and all of them were exiled to the theater balconies. So Kurt's wasn't even allowed the satisfaction of being able to beat Sebastian in competition. Rachel sang because... fuck if I know.

 

And that's not to count the times when circumstances were manipulated to ensure that no one else was going to get the solo spot, like Mercedes song being hijacked in season one and Rachel getting the solo because she wrote the winning original song. The only time Rachel wasn't heavily featured was when they engineered a reason for her not to be (like having her suspended or when Will listened to Emma's advice and decided for once and one time only to feature someone else). As I said before, given just how much talent was in that choir room, it is an inexcusable conceit that one single performer would pretty much own nearly all of their competition performances.

[SNeaker]

As for Puck I go back and forth on it.  He was usually the "second chair" male in most of the group competition numbers Finn led at least until Blaine got there (much like Santana was usually second chair female) so there was that but I still think we should have heard more from him.  

 

He was? When? He got a couple of lines in the Journey medley, a couple on "Man in the Mirror" and a couple on "Paradise," and that is the grand total he did over 8 competitions with 21 songs.

Edited January 5, 2015 by SNeaker

[caracas1914]

And that's not to count the times when circumstances were manipulated to ensure that no one else was going to get the solo spot, like Mercedes song being hijacked in season one

 

I think with Mercedes in a way initially the treatment was worse.   Think about it, Rachel, Quinn, Santana and Brittany all received some  kind of competition spotlight before Mercedes, (with Britt yes it was dancing)  who was even in canon, considered Rachel's biggest female competition.  The implication was jarring as Mercedes was both a POC and not the perceived ideal female figure.   Even after  S2 Sectionals when she and Tina were given "The Dog Days are over" (ironically a better performance vocally than the competitions that episode) she was addressed as the "unsung heroes".

 

So while Mercedes went OOC ballistic in the WSS SL, I found it odd (and yes IMO  some of  it was veiled racism) the intense backlash she got from fans when her character finally exploded.

Edited January 5, 2015 by caracas1914

[jaytee1812]

That justification, however, gets tossed out in season three when Kurt had a long and ongoing conflict the Sebastian and it was ramping up that Regionals, where ND would be facing the Warblers, would be the climax of that storyline. It would have made sense for Kurt to have a prominent role in their performance. Instead not only did he not have a solo or a few solo lines in the group number, but he never actually stood on the stage! Between Rachel's solo and the TroubleTones group number, none of the guys performed in anything but the final group number and all of them were exiled to the theater balconies. So Kurt's wasn't even allowed the satisfaction of being able to beat Sebastian in competition. Rachel sang because... fuck if I know.

 

Also that performance sucked. Apart from 'the writing said so' there's no reason they beat The Warblers. I'll be a pedant (sorry) and point out Kurt's on stage during the Fly/I Believe I Can Fly song. I watched it back just to check. Who in god's name let Blaine rap, I'm Santana's not great but JFC Blaine's awful. 

 

Kurt v Sebastian would've been great but no, we had to focus on the Finchel nuptials.

So while Mercedes went OOC ballistic in the WSS SL, I found it odd (and yes IMO I  some it was veiled racism) the intense backlash she got from fans when her character finally exploded.

 

I was cheering her on, I was cheering Tina on at the start of props. I notice she never got that competition solo either. 

[caracas1914]

He was? When? He got a couple of lines in the Journey medley, a couple on "Man in the Mirror" and a couple on "Paradise," and that is the grand total he did over 8 competitions with 21 songs.

 

Puck was as much a team player as anyone, but he suffered in competitions because he wasn't  paired with anyone for the romantic couple leading performers that Glee wanted to present.  It was mostly  Finchel, even a little Tike, and God help me even , Quinn and Sam,

[Myrna123]

I think competition songs and performers were finalized behind the scenes just like they were decided by the Glee club--at the last minute and pulled out of there asses for the most part. One season there was a scene where Rachel explicitly tells Kurt they're going to win sectionals or regionals or nationals or whatever precisely because he was on the team and then I don't think the camera even panned to Colfer once during the entire competition--Kurt sure as he'll never had a solo part or anything that would have remotely helped McKinley win anything. He didn't fall off the stage, I guess so, low bar achieved.

The show was always so sloppy and poorly planned, governed by whims and completely disinterested in anything that happened in the past if it posed the slightest inconvenience to whatever was happening at the moment.

[jaytee1812]

Santana gets Kurt back at McKinley to help them win Nationals in New York. Does Kurt even have a line in Light Up The World? 

 

Another plot overriding character in that episode is Finn saying he wants to do a duet and Mike replies something like 'I don't care, it's our best chance of winning'. One, Mike was never a win at any cost guy. Two, I totally believe Mike would've had months of Tina and possibly Mercedes and Santana complaining about Rachel getting solo after solo, he would totally care that Rachel was about to get another one, if not for his own sake then for Tina's.

[jaytee1812]

That and the to me that they have put in big old lights that Sam is Finn 2.0 (to them not to me but that is another discussion).  

 

The Finn fan in me feels like they are saying one white boy jock is the same as another.  Screw that he was the lead male on this show when it became part of the cultural zeitgeist.  He is easily replaceable.  Just throw in some out of the blue scenes with Finn's  mentor using his legacy to anvil home that Sam is the new Finn.

 

I feel like, like Finn or hate Finn, it is hard to deny that he was one of the reasons for the show's early success and because of that I resent RM and team trying to tell me that we can just slot some other character in his place.  

 

I kinda chopped this post from the spoiler thread to avoid spoilers. 

 

My big problem with replacing Finn with Sam as Finn 2.0, well apart from it's gross and disrespectful, Chord isn't half the actor Cory was and Sam isn't half the man Finn was. 

 

Probably because Cory is a better actor but Finn could save some of the worst white boy hero misogynist writing and I never felt he was trying to be a hero or that he was a misogynist. Take I Kissed A Girl, the writing is awful, woman of colour coming out becoming all about a white man really can't be saved, but he does just a little bit. The one thing about the episode  for me is Finn never comes over as a 'hero' trying to 'save' Santana. He always comes over as a friend genuinely concerned, and as someone who feels slightly responsible. That was all Cory. 

[camussie]

You know I am not a Sam fan at all but I also find it disrespectful to his character.  Instead of forging his own story they simply are giving him someone else's.  To me that says that they don't think he can stand on his own as a character.  First with Penny and then with the BS that was "City of Angels."  I know some liked that episode but I really felt annoyed for Will, Finn, and Sam in it because it was very manipulative that did none of the characters any favors.  Sure MM did a good job with what he was given but the dialog all rang so hollow, considering there was no build up to Will and ND as a whole seeing Sam as the "heir apparent" to Finn's legacy, that I was rolling my eyes the whole time.  I know some called it a Finn tribute episode but I can say this Finn fan saw it as more of a  "behold your new Finn! Accept him and move on!" 10,000 pound anvil.

Edited January 5, 2015 by camussie

[whyme]

Throw Carol in there, saying Finn is the Glee Club and the Glee Club is Finn. That seemed to be trying to manipulate the Finn/Cory fans to continue to watch Glee.

[jaytee1812]

You know I am not a Sam fan at all but I also find it disrespectful to his character.  Instead of forging his own story they simply are giving him someone else's.  To me that says that they don't think he can stand on his own as a character.  First with Penny and then with the BS that was "City of Angels"  I really felt insulted for Will, Finn, and Sam in that episode because it was such a manipulative episode that did none of the characters any favors.  Sure MM did a good job with what he was given but the dialog all rang so hollow considering there was no build up to Will and ND as a whole saw Sam as the "heir apparent" to Finn's legacy that i was rolling my eyes the whole time.  

 

City of Angels is such a bad episode it managed to make me not like a shot of Jake with his shirt off! 

 

The Sam stuff was awful, as was basically relegating Tina and Artie to nothing in the episode. I wasn't a fan of Burt and Carole being their especially given they never travelled to see Finn and Kurt perform. The songs felt like emotion manipulation not a tribute to Finn.

 

Also I never bought that they would lose after that. If someone captained a school team to a show choir win, then died and the next year his team performed a tribute to him, they would win every competition in America. 

[camussie]

I added this after you posted.  

 

I know some called it a Finn tribute episode but I can say this Finn fan saw it as more of a  "behold your new Finn! Accept him and move on!" 10,000 pound anvil.

 

 

And let me add one more thing. Before that episode, like Blaine or hate him, I thought it was obvious he had become the leader of ND 2.0 - really both Finn and Rachel rolled up into one because he was the go to talent (only RM knows why) and he was the one who rallied everyone when things were falling apart.  Then suddenly that was Sam in COA.

Edited January 5, 2015 by camussie

[Sara2009]

Matt and Cory did a good job with some truly awful writing at times.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Sara2009

[jaytee1812]

 

And let me add one more thing, before that episode like Blaine or hate him I thought it was obvious, he had become the leader of ND 2.0 - really both Finn and Rachel rolled up into one because he was the go to talent (only RM knows why) and he was the one who rallied everyone when things were falling apart.  Then suddenly that was Sam in COA.

I loathe Blaine but he really got the shaft in that episode. He's actually the one character seen preparing for nationals, and he did seem to be the leader of the glee club. 

Matt and Cory did a good job with some truly awful writing at times.

That Matt got through The End of Twerk without telling someone to shove it and walking off is a true testament to his professionalism.