All Episodes Talk: Breadstix

[camussie]

My bet is Sam will be a teacher or almost a teacher.  After all they have been trying to sell him as the new Finn since season 2 and since Finn is gone they have doubled down on that.  

[tom87]

I always thought Quinn was one of the most self invovled of all the kids.  I think she would spend her days at school rolling her eyes at all the kids that annoyed her.

 

I think Blaine  could be a teacher.  Rachel  no and not because she is self invovled really but because I truely feel she would resent it and she needs to perform.

 

Blaine they act is like some kind of Rachel but he hasn't the drive or the will he would be happy singing at the paino bar a few time a month.

 

Sam I bet they have Beiste being some mentor and helping him through school.

Edited July 14, 2014 by tom87

[jaytee1812]

My bet is Sam will be a teacher or almost a teacher.  After all they have been trying to sell him as the new Finn since season 2 and since Finn is gone they have doubled down on that.  

 

I agree that's the way they'll go and try and convince us Sam grew a brain. 

 

I always thought Quinn was on of the most self invovled of all the kids.  I think she woud spend her days at school rolling her eyes at all the kids that annoyed her.

Sounds like most of my teachers!

[caracas1914]

Another reason I think they will probably go with a big time jump is that this way they can create whatever contrived reason they want for Klaine not getting married all those years;  hell they might even surprise us  and say the postponement was because they decided they were too young.

Thus they can have a big gay wedding as people in their mid twenties post college on screen after all.

Edited July 15, 2014 by caracas1914

[cycworker]

In fairness, Sam wasn't originally dumb. He was sensitive and smart. That was part of the reason Quinn was attracted to him. 

[caracas1914]

True, but that just points out how his character development was never geared to leading status ; it was sacrificed to whatever gal was his girlfriend (particularly Brittany S4 and the idiot nurse student early S5) or just to be the butt of a punch line.

Even separated from Brittany in S5 his remarks while applying to college and his WTF remarks to Mercedes' backup singers were remarkably devoid of grey matter. The dumb as dirt characterization has been the only consistency Sam has gotten the last few years.

Edited July 15, 2014 by caracas1914

[wingster55]

Is the time jump confirmed?

[tom87]

Is the time jump confirmed?

Ryan said there would bea time jump but no indication of how long, could be 6 months could be 6 years.

 

Plsu that was before the shorten season.

[ProfCrash]

I just watched the last 8 episodes on the FOX website. Well, more I listened to and watched the numbers I wanted to. I needed background noise at work and caught up on Glee. I had stopped watching after Season 3 and found that I enjoyed the episodes I saw. I liked that it focused on the old cast and had various people dropping in and out. I never watched all that closely but I might tune in for season 6 to see where they go.

 

I never liked the idea of a new cast and all of that and from what I have read, it was a good call to skip season 4. Although I am still trying to wrap my mind around Brittney at MIT as a math genius? What the hell is that all about?

[jaytee1812]

I just watched the last 8 episodes on the FOX website. Well, more I listened to and watched the numbers I wanted to. I needed background noise at work and caught up on Glee. I had stopped watching after Season 3 and found that I enjoyed the episodes I saw. I liked that it focused on the old cast and had various people dropping in and out. I never watched all that closely but I might tune in for season 6 to see where they go.

 

I never liked the idea of a new cast and all of that and from what I have read, it was a good call to skip season 4. Although I am still trying to wrap my mind around Brittney at MIT as a math genius? What the hell is that all about?

 

I thought the episodes focused solely in New York were the worst episodes of Glee ever made. They were about vile people basically being vile and selfish to everyone around them. 

 

Season 4 isn't great, the writing is dreadful. I didn't mind the new characters it was the destruction of the old ones that was awful. Tina became a complete bitch, Artie a complete douchebag, Sam, dumber than a bunch of rock and yes, Brittany a genius. And that was nothing compared to how insufferable they made the special snowflakes, Blaine and Rachel. 

[Rockybeach]

I agree about season 4, and I missed the originals more than I thought I would.  I really missed Puck and Quinn, and the interactions of the originals. The first 3 seasons were so good.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Rockybeach

[caracas1914]

So I guess that the 7  New York  episode arc  was in essence racing through to phase out and shut  down that narrative.  Rush through Rachel's Broadway story so that the characters can all be shipped back to McKinley for season 6. 

 

Ryan Murphy is so tethered to his choir room that he turned all the graduates into what they most feared , "LIma Losers" hovering back in their hometown.  So what was the point of graduating everybody in Season 3 to such fanfare for the sake of "realism"?

Edited July 31, 2014 by caracas1914

[tom87]

So I guess that the 7  New York  episode arc  was in essence racing through to phase out and shut  down that narrative.  Rush through Rachel's Broadway story so that the characters can all be shipped back to McKinley for season 6. 

 

Ryan Murphy is so tethered to his choir room that he turned all the graduates into what they most feared , "LIma Losers" hovering back in their hometown.  So what was the point of graduating everybody in Season 3 to such fanfare for the sake of "realism"?

I am afraid there is no good answer to that.

 

The realism crap was made up after they  got a ltitle praise for the Kurt storyline and  trashed the balck comedy  of the show.  In April 2010 he tole Oprah it was a 10 year High School.

[jaytee1812]

I just completed a rematch of the first five seasons, and for those how have fond memories of the first couple of seasons I don’t recommend it. It’s not a show that has held up well over time. In fact only two things hold up well: the performers and the musical performances.

 

The most disappointing thing for me was to realise how the show’s diversity was always window dressing; Glee was always about Rachel Berry and a bunch of white men (who the white men are changes, but it always white men), everyone else is just there to serve these characters, or make up the numbers.

 

Non-white characters are there to serve the needs of the white characters and racist ‘jokes’ at their expense were suppose to be funny. Maybe I’m missing the funny in a teacher calling a pupil by a racial slur (which I can think of on at least three occasions). The racial stereotypes were awful and were never challenged, black men are trouble and untrustworthy, asians work really hard and must get perfect grades, I’m cringing just typing these. One thing Glee did do was have have several interracial relationships, but the one time it’s seen as a problem it’s the white guy who’s black girlfriend’s friends don’t approve (and not because he was had just been really racist). With the newbies they had the sweet white girl choose between the ‘bad’ mixed race boy and the ‘good’ white boy. The mixed race boy even cheats on her with a black girl. Ugh.

 

Women fair no better. Every female character at some point (some more than once) has a storyline with no more motivation than ‘dem bitches be crazy’. I’d list them but this post would turn into a novel. And every single one of them has to be saved by a man at some point, again some on several occasions. I mean it take some effort to making the coming out of a hispanic lesbian all about a straight white man but this show managed it.

 

The one thing I did see and I sort of agree with Ryan Murphy about is how special the choir room is, not McKinley, just the choir room. For me some of the best drama, comedy, and relationship moments come in the reactions to performances in the choir room. Drama wise the best example is Quinn while Puck is singing Beth, Sam while Mercedes sings ‘I Will Always Love you’ and both Tina and Mike during ‘In My Life’. There are some great comedic moments when someone is randomly in the huff during a performance. Also it’s hilarious watching the first couple of seasons and seeing Santana go postal when Puck sings to another girl.

 

As I said the one thing that does stand the test of time are the musical performances. I have a playlist of about 300 of the performances (about half) and I could watch it for hours. Those performers are fantastic, all of them. My only criticism is some were overused, also there were duets and combination of performances I would’ve like to see that we never got, and some songs I’d like to have seen performed by different performers.

 

I also realised I like every single member of New Directions, some more than others but I dislike no-one when they’re in New Directions (I hate everyone when they move to New York). But even people like Matt Rutherford, Lauren Ciizes, Sugar, Joe and Rory I liked. I also realised something which I think may be sacrilege for this show: I never liked Sue, I never love to hate her either. I just wanted her to go away. Actually by the end the only teacher I liked was Bieste.

 

In short the legacy of this show will be some fantastic performers and some great music.

[CleoCaesar]

Glee was always about Rachel Berry and a bunch of white men (who the white men are changes, but it always white men),

 

White men: the enemy of all that is good and holy in the world! Such a racially focused reading of a (terrible) show is pretty reductive, IMO. Not everything is about race. The racial stereotypes were never challenged...well what stereotypes were challenged on Glee? Glee crammed every kind of minority into the show - race, religion, sexuality, gender identity, class - and had almost ludicrous diversity for a rural hick town in Ohio. It was a poorly written, cliche, mawkish show that made every character into a two-dimensional joke. The minority characters fared just as well in that respect as the white ones.

[Cranberry]

Changed the name of this topic because we're moving away from "general discussion" in favor of "all episodes talk" (some forums had both and there was too much overlap, so we're picking one and sticking with it!). You don't have to change what you post in here; it's just a cosmetic change. Carry on!

[jaytee1812]

White men: the enemy of all that is good and holy in the world! Such a racially focused reading of a (terrible) show is pretty reductive, IMO. Not everything is about race. The racial stereotypes were never challenged...well what stereotypes were challenged on Glee? Glee crammed every kind of minority into the show - race, religion, sexuality, gender identity, class - and had almost ludicrous diversity for a rural hick town in Ohio. It was a poorly written, cliche, mawkish show that made every character into a two-dimensional joke. The minority characters fared just as well in that respect as the white ones.

 

I didn't just look at race, I said the same thing about gender too. I wasn't watching looking for it, it just stood out like a sore thumb. Whatever the problem with the writing it doesn't change the fact that non-white characters almost always had a role to serve the storylines of white characters. Glee did challenge some stereotypes especially regarding sexuality and gender identity. Don't get me wrong it did it while making homophobic and transphobic jokes, but it still did it. 

[Cranberry]

I don't know if any of you have read anything from Dr. She Bloggo, but she's done some great posts about Glee. You can find the master list here. I especially liked the "Gender and Glee" series.

[Sara2009]

I didn't just look at race, I said the same thing about gender too. I wasn't watching looking for it, it just stood out like a sore thumb. Whatever the problem with the writing it doesn't change

the fact that non-white characters almost always

had a role to serve the storylines of white

characters. Glee did challenge some stereotypes

especially regarding sexuality and gender

identity. Don't get me wrong it did it while

making homophobic and transphobic jokes, but it

still did it.

This isn 't surprising given that the show is written by three white men. They know little about the different minority groups.

[jaytee1812]

I don't know if any of you have read anything from Dr. She Bloggo, but she's done some great posts about Glee. You can find the master list here. I especially liked the "Gender and Glee" series.

 

Just read a couple of posts, looks quite interesting. 

[camussie]

Given that I feel the character who got the most passes in the writing was Britney, by far, I don't agree that the women always got the short end of the stick on the writing.  Britney outed Santana twice before Finn/Santana ever argued in that hallway (which just for that one day became a place where the rest of the school paid attention to glee clubbers yelling at each other) and she never got called on it. 

 

All of the contrivances I was expected to buy in order for RM and team to attempt to do yet another after school special on LGBT issues will never not annoy me.  I will always maintain that Finn should have never gotten the hero edit in "I Kissed a Girl" but he also should have never gotten the villain edit in "Mash-Up" given what had come in Santana's story before i.e. thanks to Britney Santana being a a Lesbian was hardly a secret within the walls of McKinley.  

Edited August 3, 2014 by camussie

[jaytee1812]

Given that I feel the character who got the most passes in the writing was Britney, by far, I don't agree that the women always got the short end of the stick on the writing.  Britney outed Santana twice before Finn/Santana ever argued in that hallway (which just for that day became a place where the rest of the school paid attention to glee clubbers yelling at each other) and she never got called on it.  That will never not annoy me.  

 

I could write a post as long as my earlier one on why Brittany annoys me. Repeatedly she would do things, like cheating on Artie, but have her actions excused, and as you say outing Santana, and the sex tape too. She was one of the worst female characters for me, she was like a hyper-sexualised child. 

[Cranberry]

Yeah, the show lost me re: Brittany when she actually believed that storks brought babies. And when she still believed in Santa Claus. And when she claimed that she never brushes her teeth. I mean, "dolphins are just gay sharks" was funny, and thinking that a ballad is a male duck was funny (enough), and not recognizing Puck when he lost the mohawk was funny, and narrating out loud because she thought she was doing a voiceover was funny. None of those things made her look like a child. Writing essays in crayon and not knowing the alphabet or how to use a calendar and thinking that a dirty old comb was literally magical did. I enjoyed how emotionally mature she could be with Santana (she often knew exactly the right thing to say to reassure Santana), but I could never think too hard about how someone who was basically a toddler could be so sexual, or it would all fall apart.

 

And remember that one quip, "I lost my virginity at cheerleading camp. He just climbed into my tent. Alien invasion"? That's super problematic, and stuff like that was treated as a throwaway joke.

 

I know we aren't supposed to take 90% of the things Brittany says seriously -- for anyone who watched Popular, Brittany is basically Glee's Mary Cherry -- but that only works if the show is always heightened reality. Glee veers between heightened reality and super-serious after school special shit, and it just doesn't work.

[Sara2009]

Even though I really like her, I'd argue that Emma is another female character who tends to get away with things.

[tom87]

I agree about Brittney season 1 a few one liners here and there was perfect.   Once they gave her more it ruined the character.  Also  Heather mumbled when she had more than one line and she was so mono-toned and instead of being a bit ditzy it started to come off as maybe she had some  mental challenges.

 

I always liked how Mr Shue would ask a question and the  dutiful Rachel would raise her hand only to have Brittany  blurt out some nonsensical answer, then a shot of Rachel exasperated and Finn mulling over the answer wondering if it was true or not.

Edited August 4, 2014 by tom87

[Sara2009]

Some of Will's reactions were funny too. I remember one where he was like " so close." LOL

[caracas1914]

The problem for me with Brittany/Heather was that she was fine with a funny one liner, but giving her scenes with dialogue was painful to watch because it exposed her limitations (Heather) as an actress and (Brittany) as a character. They both went hand in hand.

[caracas1914]

I find most TV shows don't age well with revisits, I can't stand now seeing early "Big Bang Theory" or "Modern Family" because they've worked the same damn formula so many times that it seems calcified.

Paradoxically the front 13 of S1 Glee still works well for me because of the dark subversive humor was in full bloom.  Will planting pot with a student he wanted to blackmail to sing in ND, Kurt as a kicker on the football team with everyone dancing to "Single Ladies", Rachel the daughter of 2 gay dads getting Choir director Sandy fired for inappropriate behavior with a male student, Kurt's awkward crush on Finn, Sue's mocking of Emma's condition, Sandy selling pot, Will's alcoholic mom who might have slept with Josh Groban, etc.This is in contrast with how toothless the show got with PDA's by Season 4.

Of course we also have later during that first season the glory of "Run Joey Run."

Glee always had weaknesses (ie practically every multiple episode SL arc conclusion) but that blissed out black humor was served in tantalizing dollops that first season.

Edited August 5, 2014 by caracas1914

[tom87]

I still like season 1 and 2 wasn't so bad. I remembering thinking Night of Nelgect was awful but I'd take that over anything in season 4.   I think I liked the first 4 episodes of season 4 and maybe 2 or 3 more were ok at best live Swan Song or  Diva. 

 

I get why peole dislike season 5 but I still  find it better then season 4 for the most part.  I think it actaully had more humor than season 4 and I was just so done with the New New Directions running around in circles singing look at us bonding. 

[CleoCaesar]

Paradoxically the front 13 of S1 Glee still works well for me because of the dark subversive humor was in full bloom.  Will planting pot with a student he wanted to blackmail to sing in ND, Kurt as a kicker on the football team with everyone dancing to "Single Ladies", Rachel the daughter of 2 gay dads getting Choir director Sandy fired for inappropriate behavior with a male student, Kurt's awkward crush on Finn, Sue's mocking of Emma's condition, Sandy selling pot, Will's alcoholic mom who might have slept with Josh Groban, etc.This is in contrast with how toothless the show got with PDA's by Season 4.

 

Ah, good memories. *wipes away tear* The front 13 were indeed awesome - darkly hilarious, deadpan, wry, whatever one wants to call it. By season 2, it was a full-on PC-fest of schmaltzy PDAs.

 

What's incredible is how it took actually good jokes/sight gags and turned them into Afterschool Specials. In season 1, Kurt is being bullied by the jocks. Before they toss him into a dumpster, he asks to take off his new Marc Jacobs jacket. The bullies stop and patiently wait. Then toss him in. I just remember it being a very well done comedic moment - great pacing, deadpan acting. Then RIB have to go and ruin it - season 2 turns into a sermon on LGBT bullying and nary an episode goes by without Kurt suffering nobly/educating people/turning into a martyr. None of it was funny, none of it was useful (except for Colfer and his Golden Globe for Making a Cryface), none of it was good TV.

 

Ugh, Glee. You suck so hard. If it hadn't started off so promisingly, the fall into mediocrity wouldn't have stung so hard.

[camussie]

To me "Swan Song" is the episode that marks the beginning of the end of this series and that can all be summed up in one plot - Rachel not only being invited to showcase but winning it and then oh so gratingly telling Finn winning isn't everything right after she won showcase.  That is when glee truly changed over to wish fulfillment fanfic

Edited August 5, 2014 by camussie

[caracas1914]

season 2 turns into a sermon on LGBT bullying and nary an episode goes by without Kurt suffering nobly/educating people/turning into a martyr.

 

It's amazing how perceptions can vary with viewers.   The Kurt/Karofsky bullying SL was really only brought out in a couple of episodes early on and  was pretty much done as a major  focal point by the end  of Episode 8: "FURT" , when Kurt was conveniently exiled off to Dalton for about 10 episodes, and yet  I think of Season Two utterly dominated by Rachel Berry  losing her bearings/mojo  with the  pining for Finn for virtually the whole time  in the roadkill mess of the Finn/Rachel/Quinn triangle. 

 

Finchel, for better or for worse, was THE storyline of Season Two. Nary an episode went by without that drama being played out somehow.  Even Nationals was all about the Finchel of it all.  It seemed like fucking  Twenty two  episodes focused on that.

Edited August 5, 2014 by caracas1914

[camussie]

Finchel, for better or for worse, was THE storyline of Season Two. Nary an episode went by without that drama being played out somehow.  Even Nationals was all about the Finchel of it all.  It seemed like fucking  Twenty two  episodes focused on that.

 

 

I think both were prominent but I agree with Cleocaesar that the Kurt Bullying/Kurt as a victim story seemed to really be in our faces.  It took a short break after Furt but it was back later in the season with the bullywhips but even when it took a break we had stuff like Kurt getting all lecturey with his dad because his father had a problem with a drunk Blaine spending the night in Kurt's room.  Making it into a referendum about Burt being uncomfortable with gay sex  (and how he wouldn't have had a problem with a boy spending the night in Finn's room) instead of realizing his father had a point about someone's crush spending the night.

 

It was also so dominant early on in the season.  First with Burt having a heart attack (and don't even get me started on how it felt like Burt was the only parent they cared about on "Glee") and then "Furt" which might as well have been renamed "An Ode to Kurt" given that Burt, Carole's, and Finn's speeches were all about Kurt.  If RM had done some of that with a softer touch (like nixed the Burt heart attack and not had every single speech in Furt be about the wonders of Kurt.  At the very least couldn't Carole have focused on her son like Burt did his?) it wouldn't have come across so heavy handed nor would it have seemed such a tonal shift from the dark comedy of Glee's first season.

 

As for Quinn/Finn/Rachel yes it was also prominent and a suck story for all three of the players (one that RM couldn't even explain the reasoning behind).  It just wasn't as preachy nor was it as huge of a shift in tone from the first season which made it slightly more tolerable to me.  

Edited August 5, 2014 by camussie

[Advance35]

Then RIB have to go and ruin it - season 2 turns into a sermon on LGBT bullying and nary an episode goes by without Kurt suffering nobly/educating people/turning into a martyr. None of it was funny, none of it was useful (except for Colfer and his Golden Globe for Making a Cryface), none of it was good TV.

 

I didn't realize this until all these years later but I agree completely.   Kurt was my favorite character and I guess I didn't see past my own bias because I considered any episode where Kurt didn't have an A-Plot to be more or less wasted.   Now I wish he had STAYED nothing more than a supporting character.   It's really kind of soured me on the Kurt Hummel character, especially on Re-Watch.   Funnily enough Rachel, whom I HATED during the actual airing of seasons, has become a much more preferred character.  At least in the old episodes.    I can't believe I didn't realize at the time just how funny and crazy she was and every once in a while I manage to feel sorry for her.    Her pathos you could either laugh at or cry with and that may be the difference between her and Kurt for me.   

 

When I got to Season 2, I realized what fans mean't by the Kurt Hummel Power Hour.  Finn and Kurt were headliners, Rachel's life was made to revolve around Finn Hudson, Mr. Schue was being phased to the back.   It was just ALL wrong.

[tom87]

Kurts' bulling storyline sucked out the last chance to keep it a dark coomedy.   It wanted it both ways to treat the gay bashing/bullying as serious but still allow the verbal abuse Rachel got so often and other at times. 

 

 

To me "Swan Song" is the episode that marks the beginning of the end of this series and that can all be summed up in one plot - Rachel not only being invited to showcase but winning it and then oh so gratingly telling Finn winning isn't everything right after she won showcase.  That is when glee truly changed over to wish fulfillment fanfic

Once again a by product of them rushing through NY and even the Finn arc.   She had to be on top so he could be on bottom thier role revearsal,  but they never gave her time to climb to the top casue they skipped over NY for basically 5 epsidoes.

Edited August 5, 2014 by tom87

[caracas1914]

First with Burt having a heart attack (and don't even get me started on how it felt like Burt was the only parent they cared about on "Glee")

 

Actually "Grilled Cheezus" was an interesting  take on faith versus not believing.  Kurt didn't feel obligated to believe in God despite the fact that the rest of the kids were trying to shove religion down his throat.  I liked that he stubbornly refused to cowe in to the sentimentality around him, though at the end they had to drag him out to Mercedes church choir shinding and make him admit the other kids had the best of intentions. 

 

The fact that Kurt refused to believe in God to the bitter end  is something the show wouldn't dare to focus openly in subsequent PC seasons.

 

It took a short break after Furt but it was back later in the season with the bullywhips

 

That short "break" was practically ten episodes filled with Finchel, Finchel and more Finchel.

 

After the bully whips  it was about another 4 episodes of Finchel through to "New York" , which continued all the way through Season three.  So yea 44 episodes of FINCHEL was a bit much more overkill in my book.

 

Edited August 5, 2014 by caracas1914

[camussie]

I think it was also the by product of RM and team deciding that Rachel was a supernova so any struggle she had would essentially be over after high school.  It makes her an unrootable character to me in seasons 4 and 5.  

 

It is also a by product of their increasingly black and white way of telling stories.  Rachel was their supernova and they wanted to showcase the opposite of that for someone after high school so Finn was not just directionless but had to shoot himself out of the army even though he had shown himself to be mechanically adept through the series.  These writers were never the most nuanced but they become even less so as seasons progressed.  Rachel couldn't just be invited to showcase.  She had to win it.  Finn just couldn't be directionless right after high school he had to humiliate himself in everything he tried.  

 

Actually "Grilled Cheezus" was an interesting  take on faith versus not believing.  Kurt didn't feel obligated to believe in God despite the fact that the rest of the kids were trying to shove religion down his throat.  I liked that he stubbornly refused to cowe in to the sentimentality around him, though at the end they had to drag him out to Mercedes church choir shinding and make him admit the other kids had the best of intentions.

 

 

It would have been a fine story on its own but it in conjunction with the Kurt is being bullied heavy handed PSA was too much poor but resolute Kurt for my tastes.  Since they wanted to go in so heavy on the bullying story I still say they should have cut the Burt having a heart attack story.  Or if they wanted to do both they should have cut down on the preachiness in Furt.  

 

As for Finn/Rachel story being an A story I agree it got too much at times but I also think it was set up as an A story from the very first episode so I always expected their romance to have a prominent role on the show. Glee was not an ensemble show from the start.  The first season leads were Will, Finn, Rachel.  In season 2 Kurt rightfully became a lead as well but my issue was how they approached his story - through heavy handed PSAs.  Then Santana came on as a lead in season 3.  The trade off for Kurt/Santana becoming leads was Will's status - he went from a lead to supporting.  

 

Whether it was fan service of the writers fixating on the wrong things I feel there was also far too much focus given to what should have been supporting players - Dave Karofsky,  Brittany, the Warblers.  Even Quinn.  In the quest to keep her more relevant than she should have been after Beth was born I feel both Finn & Rachel were written all over the place.  Puck suffered for that at times as well (I am thinking of the Shelby story).

Edited August 5, 2014 by camussie

[caracas1914]

It would have been a fine story on its own but it in conjunction with the Kurt is being bullied heavy handed PSA was too much poor but resolute Kurt for my tastes.

 

 

It was a stand alone episode and as such I thought it worked.  

 

The thing is the Kurt character was not actually drawn sympathetically in the view of many, he dismissed his Dad's attempt at a traditional family night out;  his atheism and "anger" and offense at the religious  gestures of his classmates  was divisive with the audience.  So I don't get how Kurt was portrayed as being "right" in that episode.  Interestingly enough,  Puck was the one classmate who prayed for him in a  non intrusive way, the rest seemed baffled by Kurt's non belief, particularly Quinn and Mercedes.     We got "I want to hold your hand" out of that episode, which is still one of more moving numbers from the show, as well as Finn's hilarious take on God,  so I don't think "Grilled Cheezus" ruined Glee permanently despite being Kurt focused.

[camussie]

Each their own because in retrospect I really dislike "I want to Hold Your hand" because it encapsulates just what I am talking about regarding the writing for Kurt from season 2 on - how they portray him as so perfectly resolute during his many many trials.  That in turn represents fairly well the tonal shift in Glee starting in season 2.  It went from dark comedy with some heartwarming moments to PSA central with some comedic moments.  For that matter I also didn't really like "I Want to Hold your Hand" when I watched it the first time because I disliked Chris Colfer's voice on it.  

 

As for Finn's story in Grilled Cheesus I agree it was funny but I also think they blew the end of his story in that episode.  By the time of his third prayer he knew Burt was sick and I will never buy he wouldn't have prayed for Burt (especially after he was annoyed he didn't find out about it until a few days later) but because Kurt had the serious story this episode Finn had to be the comic relief until the end (an example of the lack of nuance in the writing I was referring to earlier)

Edited August 5, 2014 by camussie

[tom87]

I think it was also the by product of RM and team deciding that Rachel was a supernova so any struggle she had would essentially be over after high school.  It makes her an unrootable character to me in seasons 4 and 5.  

 

It is also a by product of their increasingly black and white way of telling stories.  Rachel was their supernova and they wanted to showcase the opposite of that for someone after high school so Finn was not just directionless but had to shoot himself out of the army even though he had shown himself to be mechanically adept through the series.  These writers were never the most nuanced but they become even less so as seasons progressed.  Rachel couldn't just be invited to showcase.  She had to win it.  Finn just couldn't be directionless right after high school he had to humiliate himself in everything he tried.  

But the first  8 episodes of season 4 Rachel was not a supernova at NYADA.  First she ws lost at school, her dance teacher hated her, her  ex boyfirned was nowhere to be seen and then they were on the outs and her some what BF Brody was with her teacher due to her teacher spite.

 

It was fast tracked and pushed to the side for  MCK imo.    As I said and you reinterated they had to make her at the top and FInn at the bottom but they rushed that for the newbs.

Edited August 5, 2014 by tom87

[camussie]

I disagree she wasn't a SuperNova.  It was clear from the beginning that she was special because Cassandra took the time to hone in on her.  Not because she didn't think she had talent but rather because she resented her because she did.  Cassandra even said as much when she threw her a party because of her FG audition.  For that matter even before Rachel started NYADA she got the SuperNova treatment.  Getting a second bite at the NYADA apple with everyone, especially Tina, becoming a prop in that development.   Then after she got there Carmen was impressed with her rendition of "New York State of Mind" (even though I thought it was pretty bad) while the freshman who went before her got cut from the program.  

 

I also wouldn't consider her not being with Finn as her being treated as less than a SuperNova since that was written as a good thing given that the story was he was a loser in life who would inevitably drag her down if he had been around.  Also it should be noted that when RM referred to the character as a SuperNova he was talking about her talent and professional success not her personal life.  While RM lies about a lot this is one time his words match what we have seen on screen.

 

Finally think even without McKinney they would have had Rachel have a meteoric rise to the top.  After all Blaine is just as much as a Mary Sue as her and he hasn't really had any struggles.  For whatever reason these writers think that it is smooth sailing for those they consider special (read those that are going to be performers) after they leave high school. 

Edited August 5, 2014 by camussie

[tom87]

But Cassandra didn't  say she was speical or ever pretned she was that until the very end or after the shift.   I am not saying they would not have made her the super star but I do think it was rushed casue they didn't want to give the time  NY at that point. 

 

I donto think her wining even made her a superstar since a few episodes later they knocked her back down anyway.  ( only ot have her foget her lesson yet again)

[camussie]

I think the mere fact Cassandra, who was written as jealous and borderline psychotic, honed in on her was indication that she was special.  If she wasn't a threat Cassandra would have ignored her but Rachel was special so of course Cassandra tried to tear her down.  To me that was clear in their interactions from the beginning - Cassandra was a wash-out and she resented Rachel because she knew she would make it.  Never mind that Cassandra was actually right about Rachel's dancing.  That could be written off because Cassandra was a resentful has-been and besides that as we found out in the showcase Rachel only needed her singing talents anyway.  

 

As far as her being the only freshman invited to showcase and then winning it I think that was the point of no return in Rachel's Mary sueness.  Sure she lost some meaningless competition to Kurt but the end result of that was getting the FG audition.  I have yet to see Rachel have any professional challenge on her rise to the top.  Sure her personal life has been a mess but so has every character's on the show.  

[caracas1914]

Fair enough you didn't like the episode "Grilled Chezus" , but the shift in tone in Glee went beyond Kurt, so I have issues with a character used sparingly every 7 or 8 episodes after that  being the representation of all that went wrong with the show.   Everybody's character was softened or smoothed out for the most part, though Santana's bitchy persona stayed relatively intact. Kurt lost most of  his prickly defensive snark,  Rachel lost her comic self obsessed drive to stardom, Quinn for the most part lost her bitchy bite, and Puck became the comic relief.   All washed in the soul mate endgame never ending romantic triangles repeated again and again.

 

To me the shift in tone most affected Coach Sue, because as a caricature she lost all impact when her threats and "danger" was mixed in with sentimentality  and PCA's.  After the bullying arc her attempts to bully were no longer as funny because they seemed to belong on another show and when her  sister died in  "Funeral" , her subsequent attempts to bring down the Glee club seemed downright demented without being funny. 

Edited August 5, 2014 by caracas1914

[camussie]

I actually liked most of the episode of "Grilled Cheesus" just not in the one-two combo of it with Furt.  Like I said above I just think they should have done one or the other, not both.  Or for that matter had another parent who had been stricken with a heart attack and have a different student struggling with faith issues.  How about Quinn?  that would have been a way to keep her more relevant without the never ending love triangles.  Or how about Will who seemed quite close to his father.  

Edited August 5, 2014 by camussie

[caracas1914]

I liked the faith issue with Kurt because it actually made sense why he would be ambivalent about God considering how others treated him in Lima.

Could have done without the praise in FURT , but then again I could have done without the tenfold more times Rachel and Blaine were the special snowflakes of everyone praising every performance they ever attempted to the rafters . I mean Rachel was Prom Queen and Nationals champ and got into NYADA within 3 episodes and yet people can't forget that Kurt got toasted at a wedding reception four seasons ago.

[camussie]

For me what made it over the top and what makes it still stick out as way too much was Carole's toast to Finn where apparently her she is most proud of how he became a brother to Kurt.   

 

As for Rachel and Blaine I have not been shy about talking about how I loathe the special snowflake writing for them.  The Cassandra congratulations party was particularly grating.  

[caracas1914]

My point is that this was way back in Season Two , the Eighth episode and yet it gets trotted out like clockwork as an example of how Glee was in danger of being " The Kurt Show" and was somehow the Rubicon line of tone. Finn, Rachel, Matt, and probably Quinn got more focus that season. As a character Kurt was and has always been a supporting character in both screen-time and songs , hell, Naya got a lot more of both in Season Three alone and lets not even talk about seasons four and five.

It's fair to say that they've used his character poorly on occasion as a moral mouthpiece, but they've done that with most of the characters through the years, Finn in particular.

The tone of Glee changed from black subversive comedy but I would hardly pin that on one character; They attempted something similar with Unique but what stood out there was what a poor shitty actor Alex was, for all that he has a nice singing voice.

The result has been that when Glee does try occasionally to go for black comedy it usually falls flat because they've screwed up the characterizations so badly they've lost the comic balance they once had. A perfect example was the Lena Dunham type character who was the writer for Rachel's reality show. It was obvious they were trying for satire and black comedy ( mocking "Girls" among other things,) but the whole comedy was so inept and badly constructed it made no sense, not for the guest star actress or the regulars who had to mouth and act that drivel.

Ironically the one time they got it right in Season 5, PUC, the show got reamed by the some of the fans. Frisky Kurt playing with Thief Santa and getting tied up when he refused to play Rudolph, Santana talking about porn and lesbian relationships to kids, and Unique birthing a black Jesus to "Love Child " that was a throwback back to Season One.

Edited August 6, 2014 by caracas1914

[camussie]

My issue with PUC was setting it in a time when Finn was alive and when he was active in leading the Glee club and then just writing him out because their show was so poorly paced.  Still think it was tacky as hell and think they could have done the same plots in a different way.  I really had no issue with the content of the episode and thought love child was quite funny.  

 

As for the tone of Glee changing of course it wasn't just because of Kurt's story but I still say his story is the best representation of that shift in tone.  It is a perfect microcosm of many of the things that went wrong on Glee - the focus on PSAs, characterizations sacrificed for slapped together plots, less and less nuance, etc.

 

As for Kurt not being a lead in season 2 I simply disagree with that.  He wasn't in season 1 but by season 2 I feel he became a co-lead along with Finn and Rachel.  Sure it wasn't the Kurt show but he also wasn't a supporting player anymore.  

 

As for Unique's story I actually think it was much better written than Kurt's even as the themes were similar.  The song choices were better.  A teacher become involved instead of the Glee girls deciding the Glee guys needed to take care of it.  It didn't seem as heavy handed to me.  I also though Alex did a good job with the story which surprised me considering how limited of an actor he is.  

Edited August 6, 2014 by camussie

[camussie]

Despite what some might think, in my opinion Glee was never meant to be the Rachel Berry show. Yes, she's a major character, but this was always an ensemble program.

 

 

I wouldn't say ensemble in that the show started out with 3 leads - Will, Rachel, and Finn with the rest of the characters supporting their stories.  Then as first Kurt and then Santana became more leads in seasons 2 and 3, Will became more supporting.  I actually think making the show more of an ensemble by giving bigger stories to a host of supporting characters (hello Brittany, Sam, Blaine, and Dave Karofsky) was one of the problems with the show as time went on. They should have stuck to the 3-4 leads.

 

For example in season 4 they should have used Finn, Rachel, Santana, and Kurt to tell 3-4 distinct post graduation stories

• Finn - feeling lost after high school and with few options so he has to find his footing (they did this for 4-5 episodes until McKinley became the Blam! show)
• Santana - also feeling lost after high school but unlike Finn she has options and has to choose the one that makes her happy versus the one that seems to be realistic (they sort of did this)
• Rachel - realizing she is just one of many Rachel's out there and redoubling her efforts (too bad they made Cassandra borderline psychotic instead)
• Kurt - so sure he wanted to be a performer but realizing his passion lies with fashion and maybe having him combining the two by having him end up going to NYADA for a costume design degree

 

Instead we got the newbies, whatever the heck was going on with Mercedes career, the adventures of Blam!, the Brit/Sam cereal on the floor romance, etc. 

Edited August 26, 2014 by camussie