All Episodes Talk: Breadstix

[jaytee1812]

 The entire premise of the show was that Glee was going to help them deal with the issues they faced.  

 

They really failed there.

[AndySmith]

Although we didn't get shown much before we saw him getting asked to join Glee, we did see his first scene with the bullies putting a sign 'wide load' on his back and laughing, along with a voiceover talking about how he was friendless. So it wasn't like they showed him to be just a normal guy; he was bullied to a certain extent.

 

Well, when Rachel and the group first approach him, he asks them if they are there to beat him up, and he just needed a second to get in the fetal position...which means that, even though we didn't see it, he was getting beaten up every once in a while by bullies.

[caracas1914]

Roderick actually was a realistic ' type' , the HS kid who wants to recede into the background and just survive HS. Not necessarily out going nor wanted to be the star, but neither really confident in his own skin. He looked the part and I thought he was interesting looking in his own way. I did like his voice.

The problem is if they had developed the character more in SL it was obvious the actor had practically no acting experience and he even looked awkward mouthing the lines. Worse than Amber Season 1. As in Carrie Underwood awkward level.

But yea, I think as others mentioned he fit the underdog role generally speaking.

The huge problem of the S4 Noobs is underdogs or not, you never got the sense they Needed With a capital N to be in the club. It seemed an afterthought to most of them; so for all the running around in the primary colors closing numbers there was no sense of team, no urgency at all.

[jaytee1812]

The huge problem of the S4 Noobs is underdogs or not, you never got the sense they Needed With a capital N to be in the club. It seemed an afterthought to most of them; so for all the running around in the primary colors closing numbers there was no sense of team, no urgency at all.

Who did need the glee club?

[Myrna123]

Who did need the glee club?

What exactly did you think this show was about?  It's a little hard to discuss the show with you because your views of the characters (Roderick is the embodiment of all evil!  Tina is the savior of the universe!) and what happened don't generally gibe in any way with my view of the characters or what happened on screen. 

 

This show set out to portray a group of diseparate high school kids and how the Glee club they formed helped them navigate high school life.  Whether the show was successful or not at portraying that, it is what the show was about and what it was trying to do.  Do you think the show was about something else?

[caracas1914]

In season 1 Kurt did, as did Rachel, Finn and certainly Quinn after things went to pot with her. Mercedes, Tina and Artie had a group to belong to and Santana realized she really enjoyed a Glee despite herself ( the best part of her day).

Similar was Puck , who in some ways turned out to be the ultimate team player.

I don't deny that got frayed after awhile but there's a reason why the group numbers of Season 1 had emotional stick.

Edited March 26, 2015 by caracas1914

[Cranberry]

Quinn had nothing but the Glee club after her pregnancy secret came out.

[fakeempress]

If we go by 2009, Kurt literally had it save his life. 

[caracas1914]

Whereas in Season 4 after Glee was disbanded everyone went their separate ways.

[jaytee1812]

In season 1 Kurt did, as did Rachel, Finn and certainly Quinn after things went to pot with her. Mercedes, Tina and Artie had a group to belong to and Santana realized she really enjoyed a Glee despite herself ( the best part of her day).

Similar was Puck , who in some ways turned out to be the ultimate team player.

I think they showed they enjoyed glee club, but needed it. No.

Quinn needed a decent adult figure to get her a decent place to stay and proper care, but apparently being sung to by a bunch of teenagers was quite sufficient for her woes.

[Lady Calypso]

Who did need the glee club?

 

I've actually been thinking about this question for a while. It's actually a much more complicated question, if you think about it.It depends on what your definition of 'needing' is. If you think of it in a literal sense, I think only a few select people needed the Glee club. Rachel is one of them, because it not only helped fuel her to achieve her dreams as well as make some friends and find people who had similar interests as her, but it also led her to learn more about herself and become less selfish (ok....a LITTLE less selfish). Ultimately the show really did botch her ending, but I do think the potential had been there from the start and if they had executed it properly, she would have learned a lot about herself. Kurt is another person who I think benefited from the Glee club. Tina and Artie and Mercedes did as well. Again, these five were all not only unpopular, but pretty much friendless. Well, Tina and Artie had their other goth friends but I think it helped them grow more confident about themselves.

 

But I do think it also benefited all the other Originals as well, in a different way. Taking a look at Finn, for example, it helped him lead to teaching and realize that he could be more than a dumb football player. His goal had been aimed to be a football player and his dreams would have been crushed, with or without Glee. But I do think without Glee, he would have stayed in Lima, married Quinn or someone else, have kids, probably work a dead end job that barely scraped him by and would have been absolutely miserable. Glee helped him to discover himself, discover his true talents and he was on the way to a better life. Looking at Quinn, without Glee she still would have been pregnant and she would have been kicked off the Cheerios and ended up a loser like the others. She would have had very little support except from Finn and Puck (although Finn would have dumped her not only for lying, but also to protect his reputation because that was Finn in season 1, and I don't imagine Puck sticking around and marrying Quinn) and who knows if she would have escaped Lima after all. She also still would have lost her house and her parents, and she probably would have bounced between Brittany and Santana's houses (if they stuck by her) until graduation. Glee gave her the support that she needed and I think it also helped lead her to work at escaping Lima and not meeting the Lima Loser expectation of the popular kids. At least, that's how I see it.

 

Even someone like Santana needed Glee because I do think it helped her to accept herself for who she is. I think Santana would have still dated men and would have had Brittany on the side for years. She might have still escaped Lima, but I think she would have still been together with men, probably would have married one, still been having affairs with Brittany and other women, and would have been miserable for many years. 

 

But I do think, to an extent, the Newbies did need Glee, just not in the way that the Originals did. I think of Ryder, for example, and I didn't see his life really changing drastically with or without Glee. All their lives have changed, yes, but with the Newbies, it didn't seem like they needed Glee in the way that the Originals did. Marley did discover songwriting, so I'll give her that but we don't even know IF she pursues songwriting or what. Jake...Jake possibly became less of a womanizer? So I'll give him credit for that, but it wasn't fully Glee club that helped him through that. Kitty took a similar route to Santana/Quinn and learned to be less of a bitch and more accepting of others. Again, I guess Ryder got somewhat of closure of his dyslexia and sexual abuse but not really. 

 

In regards to the competitions, even, we saw the Originals fail at Regionals and Nationals. Season 1 had them not make Regionals, season 2 had them barely scrape through Nationals and it was season 3 that led them to a solid Victory. It took them three years to get there, though. And then, looking at the Newbies, they won Sectionals, lost Regionals but then was handed a straight 'win' to Nationals, which they did not earn because that was handed to them due to the Warblers being stupid and illegal. And then they placed SECOND in Nationals. 

 

So I do think that each member of Glee club needed it in their own way, whether for support, to find friendships, or to discover themselves. But you can obviously argue who 'needed' it more in different ways and this is how I personally see things.

[jaytee1812]

What exactly did you think this show was about?  It's a little hard to discuss the show with you because your views of the characters (Roderick is the embodiment of all evil!  Tina is the savior of the universe!) and what happened don't generally gibe in any way with my view of the characters or what happened on screen. 

Well I'm sorry my views don't jibe with yours. I wasn't aware they had to, it's called disagreement. Why can't I think Roderick is awful and Tina is awesome? What's wrong with hating that she ends up with a sexist pig who demeans women?

Whereas in Season 4 after Glee was disbanded everyone went their separate ways.

We've no idea what happened to them. Marley could be dead for all we know. All we know about the other three is in 2020 they're alive.

[SNeaker]

Puck would have probably ended up on the streets or in big boy prison or dead if not for glee club. A Lima Loser at the very, very least. He also would have more directly flunked out of school. It was his willingness to put on a dress for glee club that made his teacher give him a second chance at the test.

Edited March 26, 2015 by SNeaker

[camussie]

Quinn needed a decent adult figure to get her a decent place to stay and proper care, but apparently being sung to by a bunch of teenagers was quite sufficient for her woes.

 

 

And she didn't have that through her parents but did first through Finn's mother and then through Mercedes unseen parents (who she wouldn't have known without the glee club).  Remember Mercedes is who she lived with after her lies blew up in her face.

 

Puck would have probably ended up on the streets or in big boy prison or dead if not for glee club. A Lima Loser at the very, very least 

 

 

More than Glee I think it was Finn's death that turned Puck's life around.  Glee got him to stop the bullying and helped him graduate but he was still living a fairly aimless existence (squatting in a mansion in LA, squatting at Lima U, banging a high school sophomore who had already banged his brother).  Finn's death seemed to flip a switch in him that it was time to really pull his life together.

Edited March 26, 2015 by camussie

[caracas1914]

I meant when they lost at Sectionals, other than Marley, they all found their niche somewhere else. It's not like the rest of them needed to perform, to sing, it seemed more like a fun hobby.

Edited March 26, 2015 by caracas1914

[jaytee1812]

And she didn't have that through her parents but did first through Finn's mother and then through Mercedes unseen parents (who she wouldn't have known without the glee club).  Remember Mercedes is who she lived with after her lies blew up in her face.

Well we don't know what Carol or Puck's mom did except not throw her out on the street.

You're right the only person who ever made sure Quinn was looked after was Mercedes, a sixteen year old girl. Quinn needed functional adults in her life. Another miss for the educators of McKinley High.

[Sara2009]

I know he's disliked around here, but I don't think we can underestimate how much Will needed ND too. I remember he said in " Rumours" that Emma and ND saved his life, and I think that was the truth.

[Ceeg]

You're right the only person who ever made sure Quinn was looked after was Mercedes, a sixteen year old girl. Quinn needed functional adults in her life. Another miss for the educators of McKinley High.

 

Whether adults failed Quinn or not is beside the point. She needed Glee club, and in it she found a family who accepted her and helped her deal with all the shit in her life, and gave her something to look forward to in her day. Same for all the others.

[SNeaker]

I think, aside from actually needing a place to stay, the support of glee club helped Quinn ya know...emotionally and stuff. And helped her become a better person. Well, some of the time. She was kind of all over the place. But in general, she was a supportive friend herself after that.

[camussie]

Well I doubt that Mercedes was sneaking her in at night without her parents knowledge.  That tells me her parents were at least helping Quinn about by giving her a place to stay.  As for Carol we know that Finn was paying medical bills and I doubt she expected him to continue to do that on his own once Quinn was kicked out of her parents house and apparently off of their insurance.  

 

Besides that your original point was that Quinn didn't need Glee club when, in fact, she did, (most notably Mercedes) because as you just said other adults who should have stepped up didn't.  

Edited March 26, 2015 by camussie

[jaytee1812]

I meant when they lost at Sectionals, other than Marley, they all found their niche somewhere else. It's not like the rest of them needed to perform, to sing, it seemed more like a fun hobby.

Just like the originals Tina and Artie did in the same episode. It's also canon that Jake's mom worked double shifts as a waitress to pay for dance lessons. She wouldn't be doing that for someone who didn't need to perform. Unique needed to perform, I'd say that about her before any other character on this show, and Marley was the one that kept glee going with Finn. I don't think Ryder and Kitty needed to perform I think they needed the others.

[Myrna123]

Well I'm sorry my views don't jibe with yours. I wasn't aware they had to, it's called disagreement. Why can't I think Roderick is awful and Tina is awesome? What's wrong with hating that she ends up with a sexist pig who demeans women?

We've no idea what happened to them. Marley could be dead for all we know. All we know about the other three is in 2020 they're alive.

I'm not saying your views are wrong or that they have to jibe with mine, but I think it's clear that on this forum at least, your views are unique and oftentimes are directly opposed to what the intent of a character was. When you create your own reality--i.e. Tina is mentally ill and that's why she's with Artie--there's little room for discussion.

[jaytee1812]

Besides that your original point was that Quinn didn't need Glee club when, in fact, she did, (most notably Mercedes) because as you just said other adults who should have stepped up didn't.

I think I'm not making something clear. Characters were often helped by someone in glee club, like Mercedes with Quinn, but glee club itself. After Keep Holding On*, I don't remember anyone helping Quinn, except Mercedes, and Schu covering for her with Figgins.

*I would say Lean On Me but I think that was more for Finn.

I'm not saying your views are wrong or that they have to jibe with mine, but I think it's clear that on this forum at least, your views are unique and oftentimes are directly opposed to what the intent of a character was. When you create your own reality--i.e. Tina is mentally ill and that's why she's with Artie--there's little room for discussion.

I'm open to discussion, what in canon makes you think Tina is healthy?

[Ceeg]

I think I'm not making something clear. Characters were often helped by someone in glee club, like Mercedes with Quinn, but glee club itself. After Keep Holding On*, I don't remember anyone helping Quinn, except Mercedes, and Schu covering for her with Figgins.

Quinn would never have even spoken to Mercedes, if not for being Glee club. That's the point. That this random assortment of popular kids, jocks, and losers all came together for this thing that became greater than the sum of its parts, and gave everyone an outlet. That's literally the entire point of the show.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Ceeg

[camussie]

Without the glee club Quinn wouldn't have known Mercedes for Mercedes to help her.  So yes she needed it for both the help Mercedes gave her and for the emotional support the club itself gave her during the pregnancy.  Frankly after her lies, including being a willing participant in Terri's scheme, about blew the entire club apart it would have been easy for them to turn their back on her yet they didn't.  They were her one safe haven at McKinley.

Edited March 26, 2015 by camussie

[SNeaker]

More than Glee I think it was Finn's death that turned Puck's life around.  Glee got him to stop the bullying and helped him graduate but he was still living a fairly aimless existence (squatting in a mansion in LA, squatting at Lima U, banging a high school sophomore who had already banged his brother).  Finn's death seemed to flip a switch in him that it was time to really pull his life together.

 

Finn's death obviously deeply affected Puck and was definitely a catalyst for him in many ways when it came to his future, but I don't know if I'd say it was "more than glee club" because he would have already been a lost cause by the time that happened if not for glee, imo. Not just because it gave Puck some stability, but because it helped him become a better person. But the last we saw them, Puck was the one lecturing Finn about how they needed to get their act together and think about their futures. He was a bit lost on what to do post HS, but not that much more than some of the other characters. We don't really know what would have happened if Finn hadn't died.

[jaytee1812]

Well apparently their was a cut scene from The Wedding where he puts something in Blaine's mom's drink, so I'm think his prediction of jail is still a possibility!

[tom87]

In season 3 I think Rachel helped Quinn from making a big mistake and turning Shelby in to Figgens,  something Quinn would have regretted.

Edited March 26, 2015 by tom87

[Myrna123]

I'm open to discussion, what in canon makes you think Tina is healthy?

There are all sorts of cues that would be used if Tina was supposed to be viewed as mentally ill--camera angles, character reaction shots, background music. Virtually every single second Tina spent on camera refutes any and every idea that she is mentally unstable, mostly because she was created, written, directed, recorded, photographed and acted as having average mental health.

[SNeaker]

Well apparently their was a cut scene from The Wedding where he puts something in Blaine's mom's drink, so I'm think his prediction of jail is still a possibility!

 

It's still unclear to me whether this was something that was scripted or just tastelessly improvised or joked about, but the point is it didn't happen onscreen so I'm choosing to ignore it.

[camussie]

But the last we saw them, Puck was the one lecturing Finn about how they needed to get their act together and think about their futures

 

 

He was saying that but he also was still squatting at Lima U supposedly working on a screenplay.  I think he was sincere in what he said to Finn but I also think he was going to keep on drifting until something forced him not too - whether it be a friend's death, or getting another girl pregnant, or getting kicked out of the Lima U dorms. etc

Edited March 26, 2015 by camussie

[jaytee1812]

There are all sorts of cues that would be used if Tina was supposed to be viewed as mentally ill--camera angles, character reaction shots, background music. Virtually every single second Tina spent on camera refutes any and every idea that she is mentally unstable, mostly because she was created, written, directed, recorded, photographed and acted as having average mental health.

 

Supposed to be viewed as mentally ill? Like frequent emotional outbursts for no reason? Erratic mood swings? 

[Ceeg]

Like frequent emotional outbursts for no reason? Erratic mood swings? 

 

a.k.a. every single character on this show

[camussie]

Tina devolved into a raving witch in seasons 4 and 5 but there was never any indication she was mentally ill.  Having an awful personality is not the same thing as being mentally ill.  Neither is ending up with Artie, no matter how much someone doesn't like him.  

 

On another note "Lean on Me" was sung to both Quinn & Finn after Quinn was kicked out of her parents house.  

Edited March 26, 2015 by camussie

[jaytee1812]

Tina devolved into a raving witch in seasons 4 and 5 but there was never any indication she was mentally ill.  Having an awful personality is not the same thing as being mentally ill. 

 

I guess her personality change remind me of someone in real life, and that was the reason. 

[ComfySweater]

Being sick of the shit she has to endure all the time is not the same as mental illness. Tina got somewhat justifiably fed up with their bullshit. I'm not sure what that Blaine crush and vaporub thing was about, but the rest totally tracks as a normal minority woman fed up with life as it fucks you over again and again.

[jaytee1812]

Her behaviour being the reaction to years of abuse hardly puts her in a healthy place.

[ComfySweater]

Her behaviour being the reaction to years of abuse hardly puts her in a healthy place.

Hashtag yesallwomen

[LydiaMoon1]

Quinn would never have even spoken to Mercedes, if not for being Glee club. That's the point.

I wish they've shown more Quinncedes. I loved the few scenes they had together.  That could have been such a great friendship, but this show never cared about female friendships.<sigh>

[Ceeg]

From the I Wish thread, re: Previously Unaired Christmas.

 

I liked that episode too. Maybe Glee de-sensitized me to offensive jokes, but I thought Santana's line about getting roofied at Lilith Fair was funny-ish? Because Lilith Fair is gay lady heaven, and not that it's impossible for women to drug other women, but I imagine the stats are significantly lower than those of men drugging women. But also, I don't actually believe Santana was roofied at Lilith Fair. Lilith Fair happened in the 90s, and then had one revival like 5 years ago. So, unless she was going to Lilith Fair as a 4-year old, or as a deeply closeted 15 year old (a 15 year old who wouldn't even think about going to an Indigo Girls concert, and wouldn't even sing a Melissa Ethridge duet with her FWB), then I don't think Santana was actually roofied at Lilith Fair.

 

Idk, at that point in time, I was only watching New York edits, because I liked all the Kurt/Santana/Rachel interaction, and that episode had plenty. So that probably contributed to my enjoyment of it too.

[caracas1914]

Previously Unaired Christmas is probably the ....drumroll....ONLY episode where Kurt/Rachel/Santana actually ever did anything together.  (2 jobs!)

 

I don't like to judge my fellow fans, but anybody who doesn't appreciate the glory  of Santana as Mrs. Claus ranting to children about her breakup with Brittany, porn on tablets , has no pulse...

[tom87]

I could have handled the NY narrative being more like Previously Unaired Christmas more often them having fun that is....   They had fun in NY like 3 times, Kiki/Turkey Lurky, PUC and Pumpin Blood.

Edited March 27, 2015 by tom87

[Glorfindel]

I'm a Kurtsie and I liked PUC a lot.

 

Sure, Santa tying Kurt up after making out with him is 'bad', and also the guy putting something in the girls' drinks. But it was all obviously played for laughs, and not to be taken too seriously, like the dark, sarcastic comedy Glee once was. The fact that the episode was a sort of a stand-alone episode, and as some think an AU, also suggests that there were no consequences of it in the overal canon nor that the tying up had a lasting trauma for Kurt (or added to all his other bad experiences).

If you took the tying up seriously then it was problematic, but I've seen scenes like that in other comedies before, with a laugh track at the moment when the 'victim' was found, and noone ever shouted e.g. "date-rape" afterwards: it was just taken for the slightly embarrassing but comical situation it was supposed to be.

 

I guess that was one of the biggest problems of Glee: they had serious scenes and storylines which the audience were to take as 'reality', but then there were the comical scenes that were clearly exaggerated and supposed to not have any real consequences/implications, like Sue tripping the school nurse so she fell down the stairs, or Blaine singing about sex toys to the GAP guy and outing him.

Glee never was able to struck that right balance between 'reality' and 'dark comedy', nor to differentiate clearly in the show when something was 'serious' or 'comic'. But imo it was obvious that PUC was 100% just cracktastic 'old Glee' fun, and I loved it.

It beats imo having to cringe trhrough another PSA storyline, an offensive school shooting episode, or high school kids dressing up and behaving as action heroes during the school day.

 

Another reason why I like PUC so much is that It was also one of the very few episodes when the NY narrative got some decent focus, and one of the even fewer times when Rachel, Santana and Kurt simply had unabashed fun together, getting drunk and making mistakes, something we should have seen a lot more of in seasons 4 and 5.

Santana as Mrs. Claus was cringeworthy and hilarious at the same time. Rachel was all enthusiastic about getting an acting/singing gig even when the kids at the mall turned against them. And Kurt was his old snarky, flirty and confident self, who's sex life for once was not being limited to just being the K in Klaine.

Yes, things went sour for them, they were naive and stupid, but at least they put themselves out there and did some fun stuff, like normal 19-20 year olds living in a big city would do.

 

Lea's, Naya's and Chris' comic timing is great, and they worked so well together, it's a shame we didn't see more of their characters' shenanigans in New York.

PUC was what a (succesful) Glee spin-off could have looked like.

[KatWay]

Honestly, in PUC I liked the McKinley side more than the NY side. Love Child was simply hilarious.

[camussie]

I thought the content of Mckinley was a lot more enjoyable than NY.  Love child was downright hilarious.  For me the sticking point was always the Finn aspect.  It was just so jarring.  

Edited March 27, 2015 by camussie

[dizzyizzy01]

I don't even remember Love Child.  I don't really recall any of what happened at McKinley to be completely honest...

[Glorfindel]

Love Child was indeed hilarious, and there were some other fun scenes at McKinley too (like the kids humming 'O Christmas Tree' when Sue came judging their tree). But there also was Becky throwing another hissy fit and Tina hysterical screaming again. So some good, some bad.

But overal the entire episode was silly and funny, although I liked the NY side much better because of the chemistry between Lea, Naya and Chris. 

[jaytee1812]

I've never seen this episode, I stopped watching the Billy Joel ep until 100, I caught up with the rest but it felt weird watching a Christmas ep in April. Sounds like I would enjoy it.

Edited March 27, 2015 by jaytee1812

[Sara2009]

Love Child was indeed hilarious, and there were some other fun scenes at McKinley too (like the kids humming 'O Christmas Tree' when Sue came judging their tree). But there also was Becky throwing another hissy fit and Tina hysterical screaming again. So some good, some bad.

But overal the entire episode was silly and funny, although I liked the NY side much better because of the chemistry between Lea, Naya and Chris.

I also liked Will's inappropriate line about " judging potential virgins." LOL

[tom87]

Love Child was the only funny thing I remember happening in Lima all of season 4 and 5.     But Rachel being the best Jewish elf ever, Kurt being flirty and Santana Claus cracked me up.