All Episodes Talk: Breadstix

[camussie]

I can agree with that but the show explicitly made the point a few times that rachel and kurt really didn't know the kids at all.  Given that when Kurt said they had inspired the kids I was like how?  You don't even really know them.  They didn't have to be the same type of coach as well but if the show wanted me to see their leadership as inspirational I should have seen them at least invested in the kids and they weren't.  

[tom87]

I had very helpful and inspiring teachers who never knew me on more than an acquaintance level.. 

[Hana Chan]

To a degree, I think the show overstated how much personal an investment a teacher should have in a student. Obviously they should know the students' names at the very least. And they should be ready to respond when they are made aware that something serious is going in in their students lives outside of the classroom (I found it pretty unforgivable for Will to walk past Kurt surrounded by his bullies in the pilot and not think that something wrong was going on, though he came through for Kurt in season 2 when he witnessed Karofsky's harassment firsthand). But the level of investment that Will had in Finn's life was pretty out of line, and I found it curious that he was so worried about Finn handing his girlfriend's pregnancy but seemed disinterested in helping Quinn in any real way when she lost everything.

 

Glee has never presented a good image of teaching professionals. From having Will basically being a teacher because he wasn't able to satisfy his own performing aspirations (and spent a lot of time living vicariously through the successes of his students) and being totally incompetent to teaching the subjects that he was charged with, to Sam just strolling into school with nothing more than a high school diploma and being given any kind of professional responsibility. It was a pretty laughable (and pathetic) commentary. Especially when you take RM's statement about wanting to portray arts education at face value.

[camussie]

I had very helpful and inspiring teachers who never knew me on more than an acquaintance level..

 

 

That may be but for most of the this season the running joke was Rachel and Kurt weren't really paying attention to the kids at all.  They didn't know their taste in music (something I would think is fairly important for a a Glee club director to know), the kids barely got a word in edgewise because Rachel was too busy doing all of the talking.  They shouldn't have had plot points like that in the scripts if they then wanted to turn it around and have Kurt say we inspired those kids.  Not only is that telling not showing, but it also is telling against an episode that aired just 2 weeks prior.  

 

There is also that the selling point of ND is that they are the show choir with heart and that what makes it such an awesome thing to be a part of.  If Rachel and Kurt barely invested in the lives of those kids it makes little sense that they would be an inspiration to them since "heart" is what matters to ND.  

 

Glee has never presented a good image of teaching professionals. From having Will basically being a teacher because he wasn't able to satisfy his own performing aspirations (and spent a lot of time living vicariously through the successes of his students) and being totally incompetent to teaching the subjects that he was charged with, to Sam just strolling into school with nothing more than a high school diploma and being given any kind of professional responsibility. It was a pretty laughable (and pathetic) commentary. Especially when you take RM's statement about wanting to portray arts education at face value.

 

 

And this is an issue with me.  I think the worst of it, though, is the emphasis on the axiom those who can't do, teach.  Starting with Will settling on being a teacher  because he didn't make it elsewhere (although I felt like in "New York,"  after he made one last attempt for the stage, he came to the conclusion that being a teacher was just as important as being on stage) and ending with Rachel and Kurt waltzing in this season, barely putting in any effort with the kids, and still being touted as inspirational, because?  

 

In Rachel's case I think it goes back to this idea that she is such a special and unique talent that of course she is an inspiration no matter how little effort she put forth to actually coach.  To me that says that anybody can be an inspirational teacher as long as they are special enough to make it on stage.  No other talents required.  On the other hand not everybody is special enough to make it on stage so they might as well teach because hey that doesn't really require any talent at all.  

 

I would rather the show have the message that great teachers and great performers are both unique, talented, and inspirational in their own way.

Edited March 18, 2015 by camussie

[Sara2009]

The new kids seem to just roll with the punches. They like Kurt and Rachel, but they don't seem to mind Will either. Spencer and Roderick didn't find his Kumbaya style motivating for their dancing, but they seem to like him as a person well enough. At the very least they don't dislike him.

[tom87]

To me that says that anybody can be an inspirational teacher as long as they are special enough to make it on stage.  On the other hand not everybody is special enough to make it on stage.

 

i.e. Finn.   Got ya.

[camussie]

Yes both Finn and Will on the show but also the wider idea that arts education matters, something RM likes to say Glee is about.  Regarding the show, when the writing basically says that the chosen path of 2 of the original 3 leads is something anyone can be great at, because it doesn't take any special skills, training, or investment, where as only the truly special make it on stage, I think that is a problem in the writing,  It becomes an even bigger problem when the creator of the show likes to tout  it as one that honors arts education.  If Glee truly honored arts education the message would have been that being a great teacher requires just as much talent as being a great performer.

 

On the level of a Finn fan I freely admit that he was never meant to be on stage like Rachel or Kurt, but I also don't think it is unreasonable of me  to think the show should have given more than lip service to the idea that people who are great teachers are also uniquely talented.  Unfortunately Glee has never really done that except for that shining moment when Will finally gave up on his performing ambitions and realized that what he was doing as a teacher was just as important as being on stage.  Certainly not more than but just as.

 

I can only imagine the outcry (and have seen shades of it when so many people characters easily got into NYADA and when Santana was cast as Rachel's understudy) if being a Broadway star was written as something anyone could succeed at.  That it didn't require any unique talent or investment.  I mean I outright laughed when Rachel said Finn could get into NYADA because there was no way he could have.  He didn't have the right talent for it.  I am glad that Finn recognized that as well. It would be nice if the reverse were acknowledged - that no matter how destined a character is for stage greatness they may not have the unique talent required to be a great teacher and that is okay because others do and that diversity is what makes arts education so important.  

Edited March 18, 2015 by camussie

[tom87]

Why are you expecting anything from this show still?

 

We knew coming  in to this season they were throwing around the importance arts eduction as a weak excuse  to get them back to Lima.

Edited March 18, 2015 by tom87

[camussie]

Not truly expecting RM and team to follow through.  Just voicing my disappointment that they didn't deliver on what I consider a reasonable expectation.  Glee started out with so much promise but has been a series of disappointments for so very long.  

[tom87]

I know.  

 

I guess I am at a different place with the show than many are, I am more tired of the picking  it a part for every aspect and just trying to find a few things to enjoy.

 

I said the other day it is so black or white in this fandom I can't find anywhere in between because I still like the discussion.   But I don't want all Pollyanna but the excessive criticism can be off putting too.

[dizzyizzy01]

Glee is never supposed to be an accurate depiction of ANYTHING, least of all anything in the school.  I mean you have a principal that basically tortures and stalks students...

 

The Broadway stuff, the music recording stuff, the NYADA stuff, the McKinley stuff.  Having an expectation of reality is going to disappoint you at every turn.

[Myrna123]

Having an expectation of reality is going to disappoint you at every turn.

This is absolutely true, but the show asks us to treat certain things as terribly real and serious--from bullying to texting and driving to the treatment of the disabled (differently abled?) to school shootings.  But then it will turn to vindictive and bitter mete if viewers try to call them out on the absolute lack of realism that their inherently lazy storytelling demands on every issue that isn't their pet issue for the day or week or season.

 

I wouldn't object to the lack of realism in Glee if I wasn't asked to react to their "very special" and realistic take on whatever their cause of the week might be.

[camussie]

Nowhere did I post  I had an expectation of reality.  Wanting Glee to treat teaching as "worthy" as a profession as being on stage is not saying I expect Glee to be realistic.  In fact that is the opposite of expecting realism as the world often undervalues teachers, much like Glee does.  It is saying that I wanted Glee to truly be about honoring arts education instead of giving lip service to it.  

Edited March 18, 2015 by camussie

[caracas1914]

Supposedly according to Marshall there was a scene of Kurt and Spencer bonding over both being gay; obviously it was edited out so there's that.

[shantown]

Glee is never supposed to be an accurate depiction of ANYTHING, least of all anything in the school.  I mean you have a principal that basically tortures and stalks students...

 

The Broadway stuff, the music recording stuff, the NYADA stuff, the McKinley stuff.  Having an expectation of reality is going to disappoint you at every turn.

I think if you have an expectation to be anything but slightly let down to grossly insulted - you're expecting too much.

[spiritof76]

Had a little mini Glee binge watch. I didn't plan to. I was just going to watch the Pilot, but then I couldn't help it and watched Preggers. Next thing I know I'm watching the "Somebody to Love" performance. I guess i wanted to make sure my tear ducts were all loosened up for tonight! LOL!

[Ceeg]

From the episode thread:

 

Santana and Brittany haven't changed at all in their time on Glee. Quinn did not change for the better.

 

You can't be serious. Santana, the girl who was Quinn's sidekick, who was fucking Puck and Finn and whose goal in life was to be married to an NFL player with lots of bling, didn't change because of Glee? Just because her personality/bitchiness is the same doesn't mean she wasn't changed, as a person.

 

As for Quinn, how in the world did she change for the worse? When season 1 started, she was pregnant by her boyfriend's best friend and lied to him about it. You think that S6 Quinn would do something like that, or worse?

 

Glee never claimed to have suddenly made these kids who did awful things turn into precious unicorns who are angels now and would never do bad things again. But Glee clearly had a profound impact on their lives. Santana would still be in the closet and hating herself. Brittany would probably be working a minimum wage job in Lima with zero self-confidence. Puck would probably still be cleaning pools and would be that Lima Loser that he and Finn feared becoming.  Who knows wtf Quinn would be doing. 

 

I understand that you might not like or care about these characters, on a personal level, but to say that Glee didn't change them is rewriting history and ignoring everything that happened to them for the past 6 years.

[jaytee1812]

I understand that you might not like or care about these characters, on a personal level, but to say that Glee didn't change them is rewriting history and ignoring everything that happened to them for the past 6 years.

I love Quinn, but without Glee she would've been a straight A student who headed off to an Ivy League school. Without going through hell on the way.

I think Santana would've come out eventually on her own term without Glee. She says as much in Born This Way.

[camussie]

How did glee get quinn pregnant and force her to lie about who the daddy was? Seems to me that was her biggest struggle and that would have happened with or without glee and in fact ND gave her a safe haven when her pregnancy was revealed to the rest of the school. Not to mention that Mercedes was who she stayed with after the lie blew up in her face. With no Glee she wouldn't have had that option.

Edited March 21, 2015 by camussie

[Ceeg]

I think Santana would've come out eventually on her own term without Glee. She says as much in Born This Way.

 

But Glee club is what set in motion everything falling into place wrt Santana even exploring her feelings and sexuality. She didn't spontaneously say, 'Hey so Brittany I love you let's get together!' Because of Glee club, Brittany started dating Artie. Without Glee, she wouldn't even have approached him. Brittany started dating Artie and started to really like him. Brittany discovered that relationships are better with feelings, i.e. not just sex. Brittany was confused because she was secretly having sex with Santana on the DL and because of her experience of having a relationship with feelings, she pushed Santana to define what their own relationship was. Then, they went to talk to Holly Holiday about it, who they knew from Glee club, and Holly helped guide Santana into some retrospection via song, and then Santana realized that she's actually in love with Brittany. Which started the whole domino of Brittana events, ultimately leading to their wedding.

 

To say that all that would have happened even without Glee makes no sense to me. I'm not saying that Santana would have stayed in the closet for the rest of her life, but I do think that without being around the Glee kids, without knowing that she'd have friends no matter what and the ND kids would rally around her, without Brittany pushing her to explore her feelings, without singing Landslide, without knowing Kurt, without all the events of season 1 and 2 happening, that Santana would at the very least not be married to Brittany right now. She might actually be that late-in-life gay getting caught with someone, just like she thought Karofsky would be.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Ceeg

[jaytee1812]

Without Glee club Santana would've went to college, not dropped out, met some actual grown women and probably married one of them.

[Myrna123]

Without Glee club Santana would've went to college, not dropped out, met some actual grown women and probably married one of them.

Or she would have robbed a liquor store, become a ski instructor and had a video posted on YouTube of her kicking puppies that ruined her life forever.

[jaytee1812]

Or she would have robbed a liquor store, become a ski instructor and had a video posted on YouTube of her kicking puppies that ruined her life forever.

To be fair she could do all of that with or without Glee, and I wouldn't be surprised if she did!

[Ceeg]

Without Glee club Santana would've went to college, not dropped out, met some actual grown women and probably married one of them.

 

When did high school Santana ever say she wanted to even go to college? The only reason she went is because Brittany got her a scholarship, and then she dropped out because she hated it. In season 2, Santana's goal in life was to get married to a rich guy. You don't need a college degree for that.

[dlyn]

When did high school Santana ever say she wanted to even go to college? The only reason she went is because Brittany got her a scholarship, and then she dropped out because she hated it. In season 2, Santana's goal in life was to get married to a rich guy. You don't need a college degree for that.

I don't really disagree with anything you're saying, but in The Spanish Teacher, she did say that she wanted to go to a college that wasn't in a trailer. It made it all the more confusing when a couple episodes later, she just wanted to be famous.

Edited March 21, 2015 by dlyn

[Ceeg]

I don't really disagree with anything you're saying, but in The Spanish Teacher, she did say that she wanted to go to a college that wasn't in a trailer. It made it all the more confusing when a couple episodes later, she just wanted to be famous.

 

Yeah but aside from the terrible inconsistent writing, there's no way to know if she would have felt that way without Glee. In The Spanish Teacher, she was already out of the closet and in a relationship with Brittany, so her life trajectory had already been severely altered from pre-Sexy Santana.

[jaytee1812]

When did high school Santana ever say she wanted to even go to college? The only reason she went is because Brittany got her a scholarship, and then she dropped out because she hated it. In season 2, Santana's goal in life was to get married to a rich guy. You don't need a college degree for that.

That was the dumbest plot ever*. Someone who can barely spell college getting her much smarter girlfriend a scholarship when apparently she had a college fund! Mind you I hated the storyline when Mike got into college because his girlfriend applied on his behalf. If you don't apply to college yourself you don't get to go.

I don't think Santana ever figure out what she wanted. Or more likely the writers couldn't so they married her off.

*Hyperbole given the tough competition in that field.

[knaxx]

It's impossible to know just  how Santana's life would have turned out had she not been in glee club. Maybe she would have stayed in the closet, married a guy and become a late in life gay. Maybe she would have come out on her own eventually. Maybe she would have never even gone to college. Maybe she would have. Maybe Brittana would have gotten together anyway and everything would have turned out the way it has. Who knows.

But what we know for certain is that Santana has a lot of passon for performing and she certainly would have not considered a career in performing arts. She probably would have never been an understudy on Broadway (as unrealistic as that storyline was). She would have not gone on tour with Mercedes and Brittany.

And most importantly, she would have not become friends with the other glee kids and spent 3 years having fun with them. She said it herself. Glee club was the best part of her day and seemed to light up whenever she performed. She herself thinks glee club was a big and important part of her life.

 

So in that way glee club sure as hell had an impact on her. It was something she greatly enjoyed and would not have wanted to miss out on. Why does "Impact" have to translate to anything more than that?

[heyerchick]

I still think Chris came up with best idea in canon for Santana's career trajectory - publicist. Or agent/manager if you prefer. I could easily imagine her appearing on Hollywood Reporter's industry power players list through awesomeness, mad skills and sheer force of will.

Edited March 21, 2015 by heyerchick

[Ceeg]

I still think Chris came up with best idea in canon for Santana's career trajectory - publicist. Or agent/manager if you prefer. I could easily imagine her appearing on Hollywood Reporter's industry power players list through awesomeness, mad skills and sheer force of will.

 

That's my headcanon for her career going forward. It makes the most sense to me, and it's not some crazy unattainable wish-fulfillment ending either. I'm actually glad that Brittana didn't get a flashforward in the finale, even though it seemed empty without them and Quinn and Puck, because I'm sure whatever Glee would have come up with would have been out-of-nowhere and unearned, thus losing any kind of emotional impact on me. So, I think publicist is the best fit for her and the most attainable option.

[jaytee1812]

I still think Chris came up with best idea in canon for Santana's career trajectory - publicist. Or agent/manager if you prefer. I could easily imagine her appearing on Hollywood Reporter's industry power players list through awesomeness, mad skills and sheer force of will.

I love that idea.

[caracas1914]

OH yea, Chris vision of Santana as a ruthless PR/agent  person fits her personality to a TEE.

She would be judging her clients so hard while at the same time trying to do the best for them in a cut throat agency.

 

Would love if she represented Kurt Hummel and Mercedes Jones.

 

Now THAT would have made an awesome spinoff.

 

Chris get writing!!

Edited March 21, 2015 by caracas1914

[starri]

One of my favorite things for the first season that they dropped like a hot potato was Mercedes' friendship with Quinn.  I always thought that brought out the best in both characters, and was one of the first things that started Amber Riley's improvement as an actress.

 

I always felt Agron and Rivera were the two strongest actors on the show, but I suspect that's an unpopular opinion.

[heyerchick]

I won't argue that Naya is a strong actor. She's in my top 3 along with Chris and Lea.

[caracas1914]

For a 13 series ending season, they gave the 2.0 Noobs, both too much and too little.

 

Too much as it took away focus  that the audience/fans  wanted to see for the last time on known characters:  too little as in they they gave  them some spotlight so that the   characters looked potentially interesting for extended SL's they would never get.

 

With so much of Glee, it was a half assed effort.

Edited March 24, 2015 by caracas1914

[ShadowDenizen]

Totally agree, and well-said, Caracas..

I think, in the hierarchy of Glee, the "NewKids1.0" (Ryder, Marley, Unique, etc.) get the shaft more than any of the other groups.  I think their storylines were mostly recycled (except the catfishing storyline which A) was TERRIBLE, and B) Got no resolution), and the kids did their best, but the momentum was long gone by that point.  (I confess to having a mad-crush on Blake Jenner. Because? SHoulders.)

 

The "NewKids2.0" did serve to revitalize the show a bit, but by now the fractured fandom (and craptastic writing/story arcs) was just too far gone.  WOuld I have liked to see more Roderick, Jane and Co.? Absolutely, but not necessarily at the expense of the OG's.  (If they dumped all the SUe crap from this season, maybe focused on a small handul of the alumi each epsidoe, and how THEIR sturggles related to the NewKids2.0 life, it might have been salvageable.

 

But, as with all things Glee? Too little, too late.

 

[jaytee1812]

And Roderick was the most adorable thing this show has ever given us.

Roderick to me represents everything that was wrong with Glee: You like something a trans woman of colour does? Here's a white man doing it not as well and getting more credit.

[AndySmith]

I don't follow...

[jaytee1812]

I don't follow...

He replaced Unique, wasn't nearly as good as she was but was talked up as having a voice like Otis Redding (no really).

[AndySmith]

I don't see that at all, both musically and as a character. Their voices were different, as were their styles of music. It's not like Kitty, who was a blond Santana, or Ryder, who seemed to be a mash-up of Finn and Sam.

 

Plus, enough time had passed between their dropping of Unique during the season 5 culling and when Roderick was introduced that I can't see it as a replacement at all.

Edited March 24, 2015 by AndySmith

[jaytee1812]

I don't see that at all, both musically and as a character. Their voices were different, as were their styles of music. It's not like Kitty, who was a blond Santana, or Ryder, who seemed to be a mash-up of Finn and Sam.

Plus, enough time had passed between their dropping of Unique during the season 5 culling and when Roderick was introduced that I can't see it as a replacement at all.

They were members of the glee club of they were replacements. Roderick and the others were hired to replace the four actors binned. On screen he replaces a black woman, off screen a black man.

[AndySmith]

I know all of that. I just don't see him as a direct replacement for Unique in any way, musically or as a character. To each their own, I guess.

[jaytee1812]

I know all of that. I just don't see him as a direct replacement for Unique in any way, musically or as a character. To each their own, I guess.

 

They were all replacements, Madison for Marley (some peple even thought she was Marley during I Lived), Mason for Jake (yet more whitewashing), Spencer for Ryder and Roderick for Unique. Jane's the only one who wasn't a direct replacement, although I took her to be a new Tina, because god forbid New Directions doesn't have a woman of colour to shit on. 

[Ceeg]

They were all replacements, Madison for Marley (some peple even thought she was Marley during I Lived), Mason for Jake (yet more whitewashing), Spencer for Ryder and Roderick for Unique. Jane's the only one who wasn't a direct replacement, although I took her to be a new Tina, because god forbid New Directions doesn't have a woman of colour to shit on. 

 

The irony of this statement is that you loved the S4 noobs, even though they replaced all the originals.

[AndySmith]

They were all replacements

 

Again, that's how you see it. I don't.

Edited March 24, 2015 by AndySmith

[Cranberry]

I'm a little surprised that you'd insist these kids are direct replacements for the last group, yet refuse to acknowledge that the 2.0 kids were practically clones of the originals.

 

Edit: Heh, Ceeg and I posted at the same time.

[SNeaker]

You think the noobs 2.0 were direct replacements for specific noobs 1.0 while still maintaining the noobs 1.0 were nothing like the original ND members they replaced?

 

Hooookay.

 

Edit: Ha ha, triple jinx.

Edited March 24, 2015 by SNeaker

[jaytee1812]

I'm a little surprised that you'd insist these kids are direct replacements for the last group, yet refuse to acknowledge that the 2.0 kids were practically clones of the originals.

 

Edit: Heh, Ceeg and I posted at the same time.

I think they told us that I don't think they showed it. Plus I preferred the noobs to the originals. I know this is heresy round these part, but I think Melissa is a better actress than Lea, much as I love Dianna I prefer Becca. I like Mark but I was never a huge fan of his, I prefer Jacob. But I generally prefer dancers which is why I prefer Becca and Jacob to Dianna and Mark. Obviously Lea and Melissa are just as bad on that score, only Melissa doesn't pretend otherwise.

[jaytee1812]

Did I miss the something but weren't these four actors fired and replaced by the other five, if that doesn't make them replacements what are they?

[Ceeg]

Did I miss the something but weren't these four actors fired and replaced by the other five, if that doesn't make them replacements what are they?

 

You could say the exact same for the season 4 noobs, though. Except, they were actually playing archetypes of old characters, whereas the season 6 noobs aren't.