All Episodes Talk: Breadstix

[jaytee1812]

They are trying to tell us Glee exists in a universe where the only single man standing is Mike Chang.

[camussie]

That is your impression.  Not mine.  At all.  What I took away from the wedding episode was Mike wasn't foolish enough to never say never but he also didn't see him and Tina ever reuniting,  To me not reuniting with Tina is not the same thing as being single forever and ever.  Had the wedding episode been the last one for Glee (versus just the last one for Mike) I would have gone away with the impression that Mike future was full in all aspects (including love), with or more likely without Tina.  

Edited March 11, 2015 by camussie

[caracas1914]

The one thing that seems to be confirmed is that the original cast refused to tour after the second one the summer of 2011,which even extended over to the UK.  IIRC they were dropping like flies by the end of that tour, and Cory supposedly spearheaded the movement as the elder of the younger actors.  (Matt Morrison had enough clout to exempt himself from both tours.)

 

Ryan Murphy when he was introducing the Noobs in the summer of 2012 made a point of saying he was getting a cast that would be available for touring.

 

It was also noted that they simplified a lot of the choreography by Season 4.  Naya was sort of shading when she said in an interviews that the S4 Noobs just got to run around on stage, (in all fairness  even the Originals did that sometimes by Season 3)   It seems  the brutal choreography schedule of Season 1 was pretty much a thing of the past,

Nobody denies that the original cast had extrememe (by HW standards) working conditions, making a "mini musical" every week.  I can believe that Lea, Cory, Chris and Santana wanted their  workload to be alleviated somewhat.

 

What I got from all this was that Ryan thought the "solution" was to have a new cast that he could work a bit more (the old Cast was squawking), that potentially could tour again, (the old cast refused) and to solve the problem of an "aging" HS Cast.

 

To which i say BULLSHIT.   He never recognized that the fundamental problem wasn't the cast, but shitty writing that was cannibalizing the same stories with diminishing returns every year.  Even the added writers in Season 3 hadn't helped because Ryan and company were so stuck on their formula.  He didn't think maybe improving the SL's for his ORIGINAL cast was a solution, weaning them from their schedule.  Instead he wanted a new cast to take their place.  That much seems apparent from his interviews, especially with the HW Reporter.

[jaytee1812]

That is your impression.  Not mine.  At all.  What I took away from the wedding episode was Mike wasn't foolish enough to never say never but he also didn't see him and Tina ever reuniting,  To me not reuniting with Tina is not the same thing as being single forever and ever.  Had the wedding episode been the last one for Glee (versus just the last one for Mike) I would have gone away with the impression that Mike has a full life in all aspects, including love, in the future with or more likely without Tina.

No but in this season of Glee the only single man of the glee club members is Mike Chang. It's the most ridiculous plot point glee has ever had! It would've been more believable if they'd had him with someone else and Tina settling for Artie.

[Ceeg]

If Mike's only options are Tina or being single forever, and he chooses being single forever, Mike still ends up a winner.

[jaytee1812]

It was also noted that they simplified a lot of the choreography by Season 4.  Naya was sort of shading when she said in an interviews that the S4 Noobs just got to run around on stage, (in all fairness  even the Originals did that sometimes by Season 3)   It seems  the brutal choreography schedule of Season 1 was pretty much a thing of the past,

Where in season 1 is their complex choreography? The most complex it gets is Safety Dance and only half the glee club cast are in that.

[camussie]

Again that is your impression.  While I don't think he had a girlfriend, what I took from the wedding episode is that Mike was quite happy playing the field, like a normal college student.  I just don't see how Mike being the one well adjusted character who understands that high school isn't the end all and be all makes him pathetic.  

 

I suppose where our difference of opinion is that I don't subscribe to the notion that the characters have to be in a relationship or else they are pathetic.  Not to say that I don't think Mike finds love down the line.  I think he does but I also don't think him not having a girlfriend at the wedding makes him pathetic.  

Edited March 11, 2015 by camussie

[jaytee1812]

If Mike's only options are Tina or being single forever, and he chooses being single forever, Mike still ends up a winner.

Because god forbid the only healthy relationship on this show lasts?

[phoenixrising]

I don't see why giving newbies any credit has to involve unfairly criticizing the original cast, because I do think the criticism is unfounded.

I do blame the writers primarily for my disinterest with the new characters. My hatred for Marley's eating disorder plot knows no bounds. In the beginning, I gave them a chance, but Glee's writing flaws were so strong, and I didn't have any built-up affection for them when I was watching fumbled plot lines, like I did whenever someone else had a fumbled plot.

I think the 2.0s worked as hard as they could, but ultimately, I still didn't care. I don't really blame the actors, but they weren't able to rise above it for me.

But I don't understand why we can't have our preferences, and acknowledge that we've all been screwed over by this show at some point.

[jaytee1812]

Again that is your impression.  While I don't think he had a girlfriend what I took from the wedding episode is that Mike was quite happy playing the field, like a normal college student.  I just don't see how Mike being the one well adjusted character who understands that high school isn't the end all and be all makes him pathetic.

If they'd left it like that yeah....

[camussie]

Because god forbid the only healthy relationship on this show lasts?

 

 

Because Tina devolved from the Tina that Mike dated.  She has recovered somewhat but she is still a shell of her former self and Mike deserves better.  

 

If they'd left it like that yeah....

 

 

They did leave it like that.  Mike doesn't end up with someone he went to high school with and it seems you are assuming that means he ends up alone.  I really did get the opposite impression in the wedding episode. He and Tina wouldn't end up together but he would find love some day - with someone who is more suited to who he is now.  

Edited March 11, 2015 by camussie

[Ceeg]

Because god forbid the only healthy relationship on this show lasts?

 

It was only healthy before Tina got focus. She's awful now. So nah, I don't want Mike having deal with her insanity for the rest of his life.

[shantown]

No but in this season of Glee the only single man of the glee club members is Mike Chang. It's the most ridiculous plot point glee has ever had! It would've been more believable if they'd had him with someone else and Tina settling for Artie.

Do you want a list of the more ridiculous plot points, or can we just agree it's hyperbole to say Mike Chang being single is the most ridiculous thing ever.

[spiritof76]

 

Do you want a list of the more ridiculous plot points, or can we just agree it's hyperbole to say Mike Chang being single is the most ridiculous thing ever.

Seriously! If i looked that good I'd be riding that single train as long as I could! (and he's nice and smart too?) 

[dizzyizzy01]

God forbid, someone not winding up with someone they met in high school!!  The horror!

[Hana Chan]

God forbid, someone not winding up with someone they met in high school!!  The horror!

 

But if they don't marry someone that they met in high school, they're doomed to life-long spinsterhood.

[galax-arena]

Maybe if they had stood up to those in charge the show wouldn't be as bad as it is.

People were talking just upthread about how Dianna questioned her character's storylines, only to be shat upon by Murphy.

 

Also, can anyone elaborate on the gossip/rumors surrounding Ashley Fink's dismissal? The consensus I heard was that her departure was intended as punishment for Chris Colfer because he spoke out about something. But I don't know if there's any truth to that, or if it was just wild fan conjecture. With the Dianna stuff, there at least seems to be a bit of evidence for it, i.e. Ryan Murphy's New Normal writing.

 

I was never that crazy about Lauren Zizes or Ashley, and didn't miss her when she was gone, but man, it'd really suck to be subject to the whims of someone as petty as Murphy. I guess my overall point is that even if a lot of these "kids" weren't as young and largely inexperienced as they were, I wouldn't blame them for keeping their heads down. There's only so much you can do when you're dealing with a capricious egomaniac. 

 

ETA: Oh, I see the conversation moved over to the All Episodes thread ages ago. *jedi handwave* This comment does not exist.

Edited March 11, 2015 by galax-arena

[camussie]

Most of the "you can't call Brittany out because she is a unicorn" writing was a major fail.  Still ticks me off that she outed Santana twice before Santana/Finn had their argument and there was no fall out from that.  They didn't  even couch it as girl who outed Santana to her uncle had seen Brittany's youtube video and she always wondered  with the  Santana/Finn argument convincing her.    

Edited March 11, 2015 by camussie

[Cranberry]

I didn't have time to edit all of the posts containing spoilers, so they're gone. Spoiler-tag if you're discussing the finale in here.

 

I also moved a bunch of non-spoilery posts over from the spoilers thread. Thank you to those of you who moved the discussion over here yourselves earlier today!

[Ceeg]

Most of the "you can't call Brittany out because she is a unicorn" writing was a major fail.  Still ticks me off that she outed Santana twice before Santana/Finn had their argument and there was no fall out from that.  They didn't  even couch it as girl who outed Santana to her uncle had seen Brittany's youtube video and she always wondered  with the  Santana/Finn argument convincing her.    

 

Brittany never outed Santana once, let alone twice. I see this bandied about in fandom every now and then, and I've never bought it. Saying someone "plays for both teams" when Brittany literally meant playing for both teams is not outing someone. And I'm not even sure what the 2nd time is that you're referring to. "Sex isn't dating"? That wasn't really a secret either, since in the Madonna episode, Santana told Finn that he buys them dinner and they make out in front of him, as though that appeared to be a deal with a lot of guys they date.

 

If Brittany had already "outed" Santana, then there was nothing for Finn to out, nothing for hallway girl to find out, and nothing for Santana to be upset over. Santana was never outed until Finn yelled it in a crowded hallway.

 

Santana wasn't afraid of being known as a girl who gets drunk and makes out with other girls for the male gaze. She was afraid of being in love with another girl, and being labeled a lesbian, in a school (at that point) known for its homophobia. And that's exactly what Finn "outed" in Mash-Off. 

[caracas1914]

If Brittany had already "outed" Santana, then there was nothing for Finn to out, nothing for hallway girl to find out, and nothing for Santana to be upset over. Santana was never outed until Finn yelled it in a crowded hallway.

Didn't Finn yell out that Santana had genuine feelings for Brittany? Grant you he wanted to wound Santana, but you're not going to convince me that Finn deliberately was outing her in front of the Student body.

IIRC during "Born that Way" that Brittany had a tee shirt made for Santana mislabeled "Lesbos" when she intended it to say "Lesbian".

I don't understand why Brittany gets a free ride when meant to out Santana (even if for innocent reasons) whereas Finn....

I don't deny Finn was trying to hurt /lash back at Santana, but the SL played out that him "outing" her was incidental due to the person in the hallway who happened to hear and who happened to be related to someone running for congress versus Burt and Sue.

Edited March 12, 2015 by caracas1914

[Ceeg]

Didn't Finn yell out that Santana had genuine feelings for Brittany? I will grant he wanted to wound Santana, but you're not going to convince me that he deliberately was outing her in front of the Student body.

 

Yes, that's what I said in my last paragraph. That Finn outing Santana, and Santana's reaction to that outing was about her fear of being labeled as a lesbian and being in love with another girl. It wasn't about ~sex isn't dating. 

 

 

 

IIRC during "Born that Way" that Brittany had a tee shirt made for Santana mislabeled "Lesbos" when she intended it to say "Lesbian".

 

Yes, the entire 2nd half of season 2 was about Brittany trying to encourage Santana to be herself. They discussed it in almost every episode from Sexy through Prom Queen. Santana even referenced that in the wedding proposal, when she says that Brittany never wanted her to be a better person, she always just wanted her to be herself. Encouraging someone to come out =/= outing.

 

 

 

I don't understand why Brittany gets a free ride when meant to out Santana (even if for innocent reasons) whereas Finn....

 

But again, I don't buy into the argument that Brittany even outed Santana in the first place. Like I said in my prior post, literally everyone already knew that Brittany and Santana made out/had sex/did whatever for the guys they were dating. Santana's fears were about being labeled as a lesbian and everyone knowing she's in love with a girl. Being in love with a girl is vastly different from hooking up with girls to please their boyfriends.

 

I think there are many things wrong and problematic with the various ways Brittany has been written. I agree with people who think there were never any repercussions for the things she would say and do to people, and she was hypocritical about so-called bullying. I just don't buy any sort of argument that Brittany outed Santana first. If she had, Mash-Off/IKAG wouldn't exist.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Ceeg

[caracas1914]

I just don't buy any sort of argument that Brittany outed Santana first. If she had, Mash-Off/IKAG wouldn't exist.

I agree, all I was saying with the TSHIRT in Season 2 "Born this way" was that Brittany wanted Santana to announce herself as a Lesbian in front of others.

To me that was big because one of Santana's big issues repeated was that she didn't want a "label" for people to look at her a certain way. So Brittany printing up that tee shirt without asking Santana first showed her intent, if that makes any sense.

I guess my problem is that in the McKinley high school in the choir room/hallway, etc. there were any number of Santana/Brittany conversations where they could have been overheard by others and Santana would have been potentially "outed". That it happened to an argument/conversation with Finn annoys me because it gets labeled that Finn was deliberately trying to out her in front of the student body.l

Edited March 12, 2015 by caracas1914

[Ceeg]

I guess my problem is that in the McKinley high school  in the choir room/hallway, etc. there were any number of Santana/Brittany conversations where they could have been overheard by others and Santana would have been potentially  "outed".  That it happened to an argument/conversation with Finn annoys me because it gets labeled that Finn was deliberately trying to out her in front of the student body.l

 

I don't think it was deliberate. But I do think it was stupid and it was meant to go for the jugular. I think Finn was just really really dumb when he did that. The hallway was crowded, and Santana had already started to walk away, so Finn spoke in a voice where she, and consequently everyone else, could hear him. Honestly, if he had said the exact same thing to her, in the choir room in private, with the girl eavesdropping, I would have zero issues with what he said. Because Santana needed to get taken down a peg or two. Just not the way it happened.

 

But really, though, that entire storyline (Mash-Off and IKAG both) was terrible and there are about hundred other ways that it could have been written without making me go to a ragey place.

 

 

To me that was big because one of Santana's big issues repeated was that she didn't want a "label" for people to look at her a certain way. So Brittany printing up that tee shirt without asking Santana first showed her intent, if that makes any sense.

 

By that point, though, Santana had already labeled herself as a closeted lesbian. Brittany's intent IMO was to coax Santana to accept herself. That was the whole lesson in Born This Way.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Ceeg

[caracas1914]

Brittany's intent IMO was to coax Santana to accept herself. That was the whole lesson in Born This Way.

 

 

By publicly coming out, no?  That would have made more sense to me than how the show did it.

 

But really, though, that entire storyline (Mash-Off and IKAG both) was terrible and there are about hundred other ways that it could have been written without making me go to a ragey place.

 

 

 

Tell me about it.  What annoys me is that Finn was stupid in inadvertently outing her and then the show makes him a HERO (bold letters her) in helping her accept being out.

 

Santana was fascinating precisely because she didn't want any "drama" about who she was, and so her mix of bravado/insecurities and just awesomeness was one of the best characters Glee ever had.

 

So of course, Ryan and Brad pissed that away, naturally.

[camussie]

When Brittany said on "Fondue for Two" that Santana plays for the other team, Mercedes & Tina were sitting right there and their reaction was I cannot believe she just said that juicy piece of gossip out loud.  This is so going to be the talk of McKinley tomorrow.  Brittany may not have meant it that way (much like Finn didn't mean to out Santana in that hallway) but it came across that way.  So much so that Santana yelled at Brittany for it the next day.  That means in Santana's opinion Brittany outed her to the people watching "Fondue for Two."  That is why I said Brittany already outed Santana.  Because she had. Not on purpose but she still had.  At least if I go by Mercedes', Tina's, and Santana's reactions "Rumors."  It is beyond annoying all of that was forgotten when "Mash-Off" rolled around just so Finn could be dinged as the person who outed Santana (in a crowded hallway where there had been numerous Glee arguments before with none of the McKinley students milling about paying one bit of attention).  

 

The other time was the t-shirt.  I agree that one is more arguable but I still think she outed her with it, even if she misspelled Lesbian.

 

Tell me about it.  What annoys me is that Finn was stupid in inadvertently outing her and then the show makes him a HERO (bold letters her) in helping her accept being out.

 

I will go back to what I always contend.  Finn didn't deserve the villain edit in "Mash-Off." Likewise he should have never gotten the hero edit in "I kissed a Girl."  

Edited March 12, 2015 by camussie

[ancslove]

Absolutely.  I think they kind of wrote themselves into a corner with Mash-Off.  Santana was beyond vicious to Finn, and Finn hit back in the wrong way.  But Glee isn't the show to seriously try and teach its audience that there are some retaliations which are off-limits, even if your attacker is doing her level best to hurt you as deeply as she can.  That's a level of nuance that Glee can't handle, and they overcompensated by making Finn the hero in order.  And it didn't work.  

[truthaboutluv]

That episode and that drama with Finn/Santana was one of the storylines I loathed the most on this show (and really that's saying something) and the reaction on the boards after did not help. I know it was a super unpopular opinion but I never bought the "Finn - publicly outing devil" shit at all. Per the usual, Glee could never do anything with subtlety. They wanted Finn pushed far enough to throw Santana's feelings for Brittany in her face, suddenly Santana just became borderline batshit crazy in her Finn hate.

 

Sure, she always threw snide and mean comments at everyone but seemingly out of the blue she just went in and would not freaking quit. All episode long was insult after insult, all to create this stupid moment that then led to this huge debate of "he outed her, he's evil and awful..." The whole thing was so annoying and such bullshit. Then the follow up episode was even worse. Man, seriously, when one sits and thinks about the all the awful shit this show has done it's amazing it even made to six seasons. 

Edited March 12, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[Ceeg]

I will never understand the reasoning behind the inclusion of Finn and the exclusion of Brittany in Santana's coming out arc. But of course these writers sit around and say, 'Hey you know who needs some POV on the coming out arc of a lesbian WOC character? The straight white guy!' 

 

Also, I remember being at TWOP after that episode, and the pages upon pages of Finn vs. Santana wank, but I think there were very few of us who thought Finn was like the Ultimate Evil or whatever. I think Finn realized that insulting Santana on a superficial level wasn't enough to get under her skin, so he went for the jugular. It was a poor decision, given where and how he said it to her. And, it also left a bad taste in my mouth when he called her a coward, because I'm sorry but staying in the closet doesn't make one a coward, and for a straight white guy to call a lesbian a "coward" for not coming out? Stop it.

 

Other than that though, the writing was so transparent. They wanted to insert Finn into Santana's arc (because god forbid they write something without a dude involved), they wanted to mitigate any hate against Hero Finn by turning Santana into Snix x10 so that she ~deserved what he said to her, and they wanted the main part of the outing to be done by someone that we don't even see on screen (the political ad) so that absolves anyone we know from blame or responsibility. 

 

Rightly so, IKAG gets a ton of flack for being terrible (it was), but Mash-Off was just as bad, because it set up all of IKAG's resolution. The one saving grace of Mash-Off, and the reason I think people overlook its awfulness, is the musical performances. 

[Lady Calypso]

That whole Santana/Finn storyline was just bad all around because it ruined both characters, in my opinion. Well, Finn more so than Santana. The other thing with this storyline is that the writing was just so bad for the storyline. It could have been a good storyline, and it was done with (IMO) the two best 'young' actors on the show, and Cory and Naya did the best possible job that they could have done. The only reason I didn't outright hate it is because it was the first time Santana got focus on in a main role and Cory and Naya seemed to enjoy working together. I remember watching the behind the scenes video of the slap and both of them seemed thrilled to be doing something like that. 

 

I feel like they decided to have Finn involved because, most likely, RIB went 'Oh, well these two already slept together in that random season 1 episode even when it made no sense then either, so let's do this!'. Before this arc, they had really been struggling with Finn's characterization. One minute, he'd be a bumbling yet kind hearted idiot who had the best intentions. And then the next, he would become a self absolved martyr who couldn't stand not getting his way. I really supported Finn through most of the series solely because of Cory's portrayal (I'm pretty sure I would have given up on Finn once he had gone back to Quinn in season 2), but this season 3 arc had me struggling a little bit to stick with him. 

 

But the reason why I feel like this coming out arc ruined Santana and Finn is because with Finn, he became not only so clueless, but kind of mean spirited. He did out Santana, no matter how intentionally, because he just figured 'everyone knew' and he wanted to hurt her. But at the same time, he meant to say those things in hopes that it would equate the bullying that she had been doing to him. Speaking of, Santana got unnecessarily cruel during this arc and it was the first time that she actually became a full fledged bully with intentions to hurt people with her words, instead of trying to be 'funny'. And the sad thing is, the show continued with her mean speeches, as if they were trying to play it off as dark humour. So, both of them became their worst selves in this arc and I think the writing just made it 10x worse. 

 

They really screwed up with the arc. It could have been halfway decent if they let Brittany actually be a part of it, since she was a big part of Santana's story. I just feel like the writers went 'ok, what story do we want to tell? Santana's story? With Finn? Eh, Cory and Naya can handle it. Let's do this!' and then slapped it all together. The only credit I can give to this storyline is that Cory and Naya tried their hardest to make it good; it's a shame that it just wasn't.

[ancslove]

I think they wanted to victimize Santana, and Finn was their default choice for that role. They didn't want to villainize Brittany, but then they had to redeem Finn. But they also couldn't take Mash-Off to its logical conclusion, and have Santana learn that if you bully people far enough, you might not like the results, and Finn learn that sometimes life isn't storybook "fair" and you can't always go for the jugular, even if your opponent is.

[truthaboutluv]

In my humble opinion, Finn went for the "jugular" in response to Santana's going there first and repeatedly. It wasn't just "oh you have man-boobs, you can't dance, you're fat...." It was suddenly, "you're a sad, pathetic loser who is clinging to your high school girlfriend who has all the talent and who you're basically hitching your wagon to because you're pathetic and won't do anything with your life." And she kept going in on that repeatedly, hitting every single one of Finn's fears and negative opinions about himself. 

 

So he snapped back and frankly my feeling on this was always that these characters were supposed to be teenagers, they were kids. So somebody came at him mean and harshly for days and he snapped back and frankly, I didn't think Finn hit below the belt or went for the jugular because everything he said was true. He said the reason she was so pissed off at the world and freaking bitter is because she was too afraid to admit who she was and she was scared that the girl she loved didn't love her back. And the whole outrage because someone overheard the conversation without his knowledge and spoke about it was whatever. But I acknowledge that's certainly not the popular opinion in this fandom and I have no desire to rehash that mess. Just one more reminder at how badly this show went to shit.

 

About the debate of whether or not Brittany outed Santana before, wasn't there a scene, when they were discussing suspicion that Puck was the father of Quinn's baby where Brittany made some comment about having sex doesn't mean you're in a relationship because that would mean she and Santana was and everyone had a pause moment and of course that was dropped. And let's not mention Brittany later releasing or threatening to release some sex tape of her and Santana to get Santana to agree to school or whatever the stupid plotline was. 

Edited March 12, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[Lady Calypso]

In my humble opinion, Finn went for the "jugular" in response to Santana's going there first and repeatedly. It wasn't just "oh you have man-boobs, you can't dance, you're fat...." It was suddenly, "you're a sad, pathetic loser who is clinging to your high school girlfriend who has all the talent and who you're basically hitching your wagon to because you're pathetic and won't do anything with your life." And she kept going in on that repeatedly, hitting every single one of Finn's fears and negative opinions about himself. 

 

So he snapped back and frankly my feeling on this was always that these characters were supposed to be teenagers, they were kids. So somebody came at him mean and harshly for days and he snapped back and frankly, I didn't think Finn hit below the belt or went for the jugular because everything he said was true. He said the reason she was so pissed off at the world and freaking bitter is because she was too afraid to admit who she was and she was scared that the girl she loved didn't love her back. And the whole outrage because someone overheard the conversation without his knowledge and spoke about it was whatever. But I acknowledge that's certainly not the popular opinion in this fandom and I have no desire to rehash that mess. Just one more reminder at how badly this show went to shit.

 

About the debate of whether or not Brittany outed Santana before, wasn't there a scene, when they were discussing suspicion that Puck was the father of Quinn's baby where Brittany made some comment about having sex doesn't mean you're in a relationship because that would mean she and Santana was and everyone had a pause moment and of course that was dropped. And let's not mention Brittany later releasing or threatening to release some sex tape of her and Santana to get Santana to agree to school or whatever the stupid plotline was. 

 

I agree with this. I actually remember back when this episode aired, I was trying to defend my opinion to people on other forums and I was definitely in the minority here. I guess it's because I wasn't, and still am not, a fan of Santana and I didn't think Finn was the devil's incarnate. Although, to be fair, they weren't all entirely wrong about how the outing went. I just think that Finn had some justification in saying what he did, especially with Santana nonstop bullying Finn. He has feelings too, and his insecurities had always been about his weight and his height, and Santana kept poking those nerves.

 

Nonetheless, this arc was shit and both of these characters became unlikeable for a time. I eventually bounced back from it because hey, this is Glee and continuity doesn't really matter! 

[Ceeg]

frankly, I didn't think Finn hit below the belt or went for the jugular because everything he said was true. 

 

"Why don't you just come out of the closet [...] You know what I think? I think you're a coward."  That's below the belt IMO. I think there are invisible lines that one shouldn't cross, and that was one of them. Especially for someone like Finn, with a gay step-brother who got bullied on the regular, simply for being different. Like I said earlier, I don't have issues with what Finn said about Santana being in love with Brittany and that's why she's such a raging bitch, because that part was definitely true. But, the coward line is just grrrr. 

 

Another problem I had is that Finn suffered no consequences for ~outing Santana. I'm not even sure that he actually apologized, or acknowledged he played some part in what happened. Santana didn't apologize for what she said to Finn either, but she paid for it in the narrative by being outed on a city/state-wide scale, being harassed by the gross hockey dude, losing her grandmother, etc. But, she still didn't really learn any kind of lesson either (outside of the effects of the outing), about the power of words and the ramifications they can have.

 

Basically, the entire thing was terrible. No one learned any kind of lesson, no one apologized for anything they did, they sang offensive songs and forced Santana to sit in the choir room and participate, and Santana had exactly one scene that showed her POV in an arc they had been building for an entire year (maybe more). 

 

But it's Glee. Girls just wanna have fun and kiss other girls. Without actually kissing other girls because lol.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Ceeg

[ancslove]

Even the coward line isn't exactly inaccurate. It's insensitive and inappropriate, but Santana was massively afraid of being a lesbian, and she took that fear out on everyone around her. It wasn't Finn's place, but he was one of the prime targets of her fear-driven vitriol, and Santana had just dragged out and mocked every major insecurity he had.

[phoenixrising]

I don't really think it's a straight guy's place to say whether Santana is a coward or not. He doesn't really know or understand the potential consequences of being out, or how being outed could affect Santana's life. I guess it ended up not being too traumatic for her, but that's not everyone's situation. 

 

And yes, that whole episode was a mess. Especially seeing how they handled this with Kurt, it makes me want to punch things. 

Edited March 12, 2015 by phoenixrising

[Ceeg]

And yes, that whole episode was a mess. Especially seeing how they handled this with Kurt, it makes me want to punch things. 

 

Shhh, violence isn't the answer. Here, sit down, and I will sing you the ballad version of Girls Just Wanna Have Fun.

[jaytee1812]

It wasn't Finn's place, but to be fair at that point he's not trying to be nice, he's trying to be a dick to her. He's not going to say something appropriate. Also to be fair at that point, much as Santana didn't deserve to be outed, she deserved him being a dick to her.

I hate the hero edit in IKAG, I can't add anything else to what's already been said. I actually hate the entire episode. For some bizarre reason I actually took about six months to watch IKAG, I watched Mash-Off the week it aired and put of IKAG so long I ended with a marathon that ended with Dance With Somebody. Btw, I had read no reviews or spoilers, I just had a feeling it would be bad.

The storyline should just not have included Finn, I sort of agree with those who say it should've been totally about Santana and Brittany. My problem is Heather Morris would've sucked, it's one of the reasons I don't like the character or actor, they made those storylines impossible. The character was too stupid and the actress wasn't up to it.

[Ceeg]

The storyline should just not have included Finn, I sort of agree with those who say it should've been totally about Santana and Brittany. My problem is Heather Morris would've sucked, it's one of the reasons I don't like the character or actor, they made those storylines impossible. The character was too stupid and the actress wasn't up to it.

 

That's a cop out. Brittany was all up in Santana's arc in the latter half of Season 2, and the Hurt Locker scene is still one of the more popular scenes that happened on Glee. It was the foundation for Santana becoming such a popular character. They gave Heather PLENTY of screen time and songs when she was paired up with Chord. And all of Naya's screentime in season 6 revolved around Brittana. So, there's really no evidence that they didn't include Brittany in Santana's coming out arc simply because Heather wasn't up to it. I think it's more likely that these writers are fucking terrible at their jobs and they were more interested in seeing the white straight male hero inserted into the lesbian's plot, because a girl helping another girl cope with bad things happening was just too much.

[jaytee1812]

Oh I agree with you about the writers reasoning behind it being all about Finn. The post was my reasoning for being kind of glad it wasn't more about Brittany.

The hurt locker scene you're talking about is I take it the one in Born This Way. That scene is the thirty seconds in six seasons of Glee that I actually like Brittany, and Heather is fantastic. Of course they ruin it with the wrongly spelt t-shirt, but hey, it's Glee.

[camussie]

I think it's more likely that these writers are fucking terrible at their jobs and they were more interested in seeing the white straight male hero inserted into the lesbian's plot, because a girl helping another girl cope with bad things happening was just too much.

 

 

By the same token it could be said that in "Mash-Off" they yet again wanted the white straight male to be an avatar for all of those people, in what RM seems to view as "flyover country," who need to learn to keep their mouths shut, no matter how hard they are pushed.  Because whatever they are struggling with does not compare to what LGBTQ people struggle with.  

 

For all of the complaints that RM tended to give the hero edit to white straight males (and he did) there is little discussion that he also often used white straight males as representative of bigots that need to be taught a lesson.   Gay men and lesbians can be as bigoted as they want to be and it is treated as  "dark humor" (see some of the things both Brittany and Santana have said over the years).  White straight males, however, routinely need to say something stupid and have it be treated as serious, so Glee can get its heavy-handed PSA on. Finn and Will were used in this capacity more than once.  

 

As for why Brittany wasn't used I think it is more because they didn't want their unicorn tainted with having outed Santana.  Doesn't matter that she had already outed Santana  before (if we go by Santana's reaction in "Rumors") and that could have easily been brought up again (like the candidate's niece having seen that video before she heard the Finn/Santana argument so it was a combo of the argument and the video that confirmed it for her).  Dim, sweet Brittany had to be kept pure.  

Edited March 12, 2015 by camussie

[Ceeg]

White straight males, however, routinely need to say something stupid and have it be treated as serious, so Glee can get its heavy-handed PSA on. Finn and Will were used in this capacity more than once.  

 

Well straight white males are, by and large, running the country, so I think there's something to be said about that. Most of the anti-gay marriage pro-life gun-toting Republicans are straight white males. Or, just look at the meninism ~movement or racist reactions to the #blackout or any number of other things that stupid straight white people do. (Btw, please no one respond with NOT.ALL.MEN.) People take what the straight white men say more seriously because they're the ones in positions of power.

 

 

As for why Brittany wasn't used I think it is more because they didn't want their  unicorn tainted with having outed Santana.  Doesn't matter that they already had her out Santana  before (if we go by Santana's reaction in "Rumors") and that could have easily been brought up again (like the candidate's niece having seen that video before she heard the Finn/Santana argument).  Dim, sweet Brittany had to be kept pure.

 

But you're going with the assumption that Santana had to be ~outed by someone in the first place. If we're talking about ways this storyline should be different (i.e. the exclusion of Finn and the inclusion of Brittany), then I'd like to just change the whole thing. Why did she have to be outed in a crowded hallway by a character we know? Why didn't we get to see her tell her parents? Why didn't we get to see Santana discuss her feelings about what was happening with the girl she was afraid of people finding out she's in love with? And by that token, why couldn't we see how Brittany felt about what was happening? Finn's jab at Santana was about Brittany maybe not loving her back. Yeah, that was an insecurity of Santana's (even though I'm not even sure how Finn knew that) but then after that, it was completely dropped. No follow-up. Santana never expressed any other doubts about her relationship with Brittany, and Brittany never indicated that she didn't love Santana. 

 

There are myriad ways Brittany could have been included in this storyline, but she was completely boxed out of literally every moment, except for her being in the scene in the hallway with Gross Hockey Dude, along with all the other girls of New Directions. They could have still kept Brittany as the special unicorn who does no wrong, while allowing Santana to have POV and a scene where she discusses what's happening re: her coming out, with her girlfriend.

[jaytee1812]

For all of the complaints that RM tended to give the hero edit to white straight males (and he did) there is little discussion that he also often used white straight males as representative of bigots that need to be taught a lesson.   Gay men and lesbians can be as bigoted as they want to be and it is treated as  "dark humor" (see some of the things both Brittany and Santana have said over the years).  White straight males, however, routinely need to say something stupid and have it be treated as serious, so Glee can get its heavy-handed PSA on. Finn and Will were used in this capacity more than once.  

I don't ever remember them doing it with Sam (even when they should) but every other straight white man got that at some point. Ryder got it with Unique in Feud, as you say Finn got it more than once, Puck gets it throughout season one.

It is just straight white men, isn't it? I tried to think of the show giving Jake or Mike either the hero or bigot edit but I couldn't think of any.

I feel sometimes the show uses a character being LGBTQ, especially a closeted one, as an excuse for bad behaviour. Everything from Kurt being a sanctimonious ass with Quinn, Santana being generally vile, Karofsky's bullying, Unique catfishing Ryder, all seem to be excused. Now, to an extent they are all understandable, but not excusable. Am I wrong here?

[camussie]

Well straight white males are, by and large, running the country, so I think there's something to be said about that. Most of the anti-gay marriage pro-life gun-toting Republicans are straight white males.

 

 

I found Glee's heavy handed use of we want to do a PSA, let's drag out the white straight male to say something that we can get on our soapbox about  way too repetitive, preachy, and OTT.   I also think that repeatedly using those stereotypes it undercut the messages RM was trying to anvil home because it seemed to become more about working out some of his issues with his upbringing and less about telling a story with a thoughtful POV.

 

Then there was how all other forms of bullying, besides LGBTQ bullying seemed to not count.  I will never not be annoyed that Finn was expected to stand up and protect Kurt against Karofsky.  Never mind that Karofsky had pushed Finn against a locker and tore his letterman jacket in half.  Finn just needed to get past that and put himself on the line for Kurt.  

 

As for Santana I agree she didn't have to be outed but my point is since they decided they wanted to out her the more organic story would have been calling back to when Brittany had already outed her.  

Edited March 12, 2015 by camussie

[mercfan3]

I think Sam got it during the time Ryder confessed to being raped. But most of the time, he's the male Brittany. You really can't have a PSA thing because what he says is so idiotic. 

[jaytee1812]

I think Sam got it during the time Ryder confessed to being raped. But most of the time, he's the male Brittany. You really can't have a PSA thing because what he says is so idiotic.

They never actually follow that up though. It's left with Sam and Artie still thinking they're right, that Ryder wasn't molested (I don't think he was raped).

[Ceeg]

As for Santana I agree she didn't have to be outed but my point is since they decided they wanted to out her the more organic story would have been calling back to when Brittany had already outed her.  

 

Eh, I still don't agree she was ever outed by Brittany. So I'm not sure how that would even be organic, if it's already a point of contention among viewers.

 

because it seemed to become more about working out some of his issues with his upbringing and less about telling a story with a thoughtful POV.

 

 

Well that can be said for the entirety of Glee: his treatment of women, lesbians, bisexuals, jocks, etc.

[camussie]

Eh, I still don't agree she was ever outed by Brittany. So I'm not sure how that would even be organic, if it's already a point of contention among viewers.

 

 

I don't think it was a point of contention until Mash-up when viewers started saying but I thought Santana had already been outed in "Rumors."  At least Santana, Tina, and Mercedes all thought she had been even if Santana was able to mitigate the damage by going back to Karofsky.  At the very least that info was public so it was weird that it was being treated as brand new information.

 

On another note this whole conversation brings up another thing that annoyed me about Glee - how Burt Hummel seemed to be the only parent that mattered.  Sure we saw Carol some but after she got involved with Burt, Burt's interactions with Finn generally took precedence.  For example

• Burt throws Finn out of the house and we didn't get a POV from Carol on that at all
• Burt yells at Finn for not protecting Kurt and Carol didn't say just wait a minute since when is it Finn's responsibility to protect Kurt
• When Finn was told about his father OD'ing Burt took the lead in that conversation.  I don't know why he was even there let alone being the one to say the most.  That should have been a conversation between Carol and Finn only.

[jaytee1812]

On another note this whole conversation brings up another thing that annoyed me about Glee - how Burt Hummel seemed to be the only parent that mattered.  

Of the parents we've met only Mike and Brittany (technically Quinn at the start) have parents married to each other. The rest are all single moms, and Glee never gives the moms any credit!

The only other real parent arc we get is the three episodes with Mike and his dad. His mom is kind of sidelined in that in the end too.

Always thought it weird we never got more with Rachel and her dads, although I'm not complaining about it!

[Sara2009]

Of the parents we've met only Mike and Brittany (technically Quinn at the start) have parents married to each other. The rest are all single moms, and Glee never gives the moms any credit!

The only other real parent arc we get is the three episodes with Mike and his dad. His mom is kind of sidelined in that in the end too.

Always thought it weird we never got more with Rachel and her dads, although I'm not complaining about it!

Will and Emma's parents are still married as far as we know.