All Episodes Talk: Breadstix

[camussie]

Did they even rewrite it especially in the episode they met?  Because, to me, it was obvious they just had Sam say Finn's lines.  The whole bad dancing thing as well as the confrontation with Sue were so obviously Finn's lines.  I feel like the only thing they really re-wrote in those episodes was simply dropping why Ryder was back in ND after the catfishing,.  My guess is Finn was going to play a part in getting him there (it would have been good continuity if they had him refer to the whole Glee club lying to him about Quinn's baby) but since Finn wasn't available Ryder simply came back with no explanation.  

 

On that same note, while they started ignoring all of the newbies around 506, I felt like Ryder was the one who got that immediately and my guess is that was because he was going to be interacting with Finn quite a bit in a reflection of the Will/Finn mentorship.  I think the actors worked well together so that might have been one decent spot in the horror (for me) of Finn being stuck under the Lima dome.   I like Blake Jenner overall so I am glad he went onto bigger and better things with getting the lead in Richard Linklater's newest film.

Edited January 5, 2015 by camussie

[Sara2009]

I loathe Blaine but he really got the shaft in that episode. He's actually the one character seen preparing for nationals, and he did seem to be the leader of the glee club.

That Matt got through The End of Twerk without telling someone to shove it and walking off is a true testament to his professionalism.

Wouldn't Matt have gotten sued for doing that? LOL

I do remember reading that he wasn't thrilled about having to perform " Blurred Lines," though I don't think he was unprofessional about it.

He's had to humiliate himself at least a few times over the years.

[jaytee1812]

I do remember reading that he wasn't thrilled about having to perform " Blurred Lines," though I don't think he was unprofessional about it.

 

I'd love to know how all the men felt about having to perform that song, if any of them complained. Actually I'd think an awful lot less of any of them who didn't feel uncomfortable performing it. 

[Sara2009]

I'd love to know how all the men felt about having to perform that song, if any of them complained. Actually I'd think an awful lot less of any of them who didn't feel uncomfortable

performing it.

I got the impression that Matt knew how inappropriate it was for a teacher to perform that song.

[jaytee1812]

On that same note, while they started ignoring all of the newbies around 506, I felt like Ryder was the one who got that immediately and my guess is that was because he was going to be interacting with Finn quite a bit in a reflection of the Will/Finn mentorship.  I think the actors worked well together so that might have been one decent spot in the horror (for me) of Finn being stuck under the Lima dome.   I like Blake Jenner overall so I am glad he went onto bigger and better things with getting the lead in Richard Linklater's newest film.

 

I hate the way the newbies got the shaft, makes the writers look like two year olds have a temper tantrum. 

 

They could phase them out, it went from major (dreadful and racist) storyline to not a line. 

[jaytee1812]

I got the impression that Matt knew how inappropriate it was for a teacher to perform that song.

 

It's inappropriate for anyone to perform it. I actually think it was played that Will had no idea what the song was about but the glee club did making it more inappropriate for Jake and Artie who know what they're singing. Especially the way the have Jake singing to Marley. 

[camussie]

I am not so sure that was the writers as much as Fox saying stop with the focus on the newbies or probably most likely it was a combination of both.  I still think after the ratings for 502 came in and demos dropped 2.0 to 1.6 Fox brought the hammer down and said we go down to 1 narrative starting in 514 (they gave the newbies contracts through 513 in June 2013) so start working towards that.  They were filming the "End of Twerk" at that point which still had a lot of newbie focus but RM and team pivoted from that quickly and focused McKinley almost exclusively on Sam and Blaine by "Puppet Master," two episodes later.  I think that was due to knowing what as coming and also because RM was like fine you don't want to keep my choir room I am not writing for it anymore.  I'll show you.  

 

Still the most petulant thing he has done is my book is scapegoat Cory's death for having to close down McKinley in the second half of season 5  instead of owning up to the split narrative never really worked.  

Edited January 5, 2015 by camussie

[Sara2009]

Well, yeah. I just meant him being a teacher made it worse.

I obviously don't know Matt, so I don't know what his exact thoughts were.

I know Darren has mentioned being a fan of the song, though.

[jaytee1812]

I know Darren has mentioned being a fan of the song, though.

 

When I don't like a character I try and not to be harsh about the actor. But ugh! 

[Sara2009]

Maybe he just hasn't analyzed the lyrics. I think the tune is catchy.

[jaytee1812]

It has a good beat, but it's still a pro-rape anthem. 

[Sara2009]

Eh, I'd rather not open that can of worms.

[Sara2009]

Yeah, hating the fact that I like that song as well. Seriously. I question it.

I kind of go back and forth about it.

[caracas1914]

The thing about Sam as Finn 2.0 was that it wasn't actually consistently followed through because the writers never quite knew about Sam's characterization.

They tried it in FURT season 2 when Sam and the rest of the football Glee sans Finn confronted Karofsky on Kurt's behalf, and then of course with Season 5 "City of Angels" and Will annoiting Sam the leader. Yet other then that , zippo.

Even now all the spoilers for Season 6 indicate Hummelberry leads the revival of ND, not Sam.

Hell Samcedes had more continuity than Finn 2.0 for Sam.

[camussie]

I feel like Rm gave up on the concept of underdogs, at least for those in the performing arts starting with season 4.  I feel like all of the originals who went into the performing arts have essentially been living wish fulfillment fanfic lives

• Rachel - bestest ever at NYADA  as evidenced by being the only freshman to win showcase (even her psycho teacher recognizes it), lands FG, lands a TV show written about her
• Mercedes - lands not one but two record contracts and with the second she gets to dictate where she wants to work on her sound
• Santana - lands a national commercial and also lands a national tour with Mercedes
• Kurt - lands an internship at Vogue that fashion students would shank someone for and which also should have given him all sorts of connections in NY's performing arts circles.  Not to mention his band lands a gig at the new Brooklyn it spot after one performance
• Sam - lays around NY for several months while his friends support him and then lands a bus ad
• Blaine - has not troubles getting into NYADA unlike Rachel and Kurt and then lands a rich patron

 

The only one I feel they haven't gone totally OTT with is Artie although even he got a film into a some small festival somewhere so that was borderline

 

All of this just underscores to me that RM and team seem to think that only people who really matter in this world are those in the performing arts/fashion and that is a shame considering that Glee like to tout itself as a show that celebrated all kinds.  

Edited January 6, 2015 by camussie

[caracas1914]

From the Spoiler thread...

 

Webster's Dictionary:
 

un·der·dog
noun \ˈən-dər-ˌdȯg\

: a person, team, etc., that is expected to lose a contest or battle

: a less powerful person or thing that struggles against a more powerful person or thing (such as a corporation)

 

 

See, past the first few episodes of Season 1 I have a hard time seeing Rachel fit the mold of underdog...  Yes, she was ostracized, mocked, Finn picked  Quinn over her, etc, but the show from "DROMP" dropped the anvil that her talent and singing prowess was second to none, she was that special.

 

Inevitably she triumphs because her talent trumps all and conquers all naysayers.....Finn, Will, the rest of ND, Jesse St. James, Carmen Tibedeux, Cassie at NYADA, and all the characters with Funny Girl....

 

It's sort of like saying that Alexander the Great was an "underdog" versus his military opponents.   Yes, he may have been outnumbered but the point is his "genius" trumped all, so it didn't fit him being called  an underdog.

Edited January 6, 2015 by caracas1914

[Camera One]

See, past the first few episodes of Season 1 I have a hard time seeing Rachel fit the mold of underdog...  Yes, she was ostracized, mocked, Finn picked  Quinn over her, etc, but the show from "DROMP" dropped the anvil that her talent and singing prowess was second to none, she was that special.

 

In the context of being in high school, being different, and not a part of the popular crowd, I did consider her an underdog.  None of her classmates expected her to make much of herself, despite her own overconfidence.  This has not been the case in later seasons, but I think underdog did fit early on.  You can be very talented and still be an underdog... the key is being expected to lose.  Not necessarily by the audience but within the world that the character lives in, which was McKinley.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Camera One

[caracas1914]

In the context of being in high school, being different, and not a part of the popular crowd, I did consider her an underdog.  None of her classmates expected her to make much of herself, despite her own overconfidence.  This has not been the case in later seasons, but I think underdog did fit early on.  You can be very talented and still be an underdog... the key is being expected to lose.  Not necessarily by the audience but within the world that the character lives in, which was McKinley.

 

 Socially, sure I could buy Rachel  was an underdog in Season One.  The Cheerios laughed at her songs on MYSPACE, as  a group early on ND looked like a joke, etc. 

 

  However I  specifically mentioned her talent.  From DROMP onward, as far as her stated goal, to make it to Broadway, she was never portrayed as an underdog.   Even as a freshman in NYADA, given the chance, she won the Winter Showcase as a freshman.  Her being the the very best was something the audience was told over and over and over.... and shown also over and over and over... 

 

There was never any tension that talent wise...she could ever actually lose or even expected to lose.. due to not being good enough. 

Edited January 6, 2015 by caracas1914

[Camera One]

That's why I said she was an underdog early on, specifically referencing McKinley, and only at the beginning.  I definitely agree with you that was no longer the case by NYADA.  If anything, her story would have been more interesting as an underdog there but things came way too easily.  As camussie said, the career trajectory of all the characters are ridiculous and completely unbelievable, making it difficult to identify with them by the later seasons.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Camera One

[caracas1914]

All of this just underscores to me that RM and team seem to think that only people who really matter in this world are those in the performing arts/fashion and that is a shame considering that Glee like to tout itself as a show that celebrated all kinds.

 

To paraphrase "not all underdogs are created equal"....

 

Rachel is one of my favorite characters and even I admit she is treated different from everyone else in canon (that isn't to say I don't enjoy her as the lead character, I do)

 

I don't necessarily disagree that things came too easy to most of the ND kids (though it's hard for me to actually see the "great" success of Sam/Kurt and Santana TBH, they had some success, but it's tempered/qualified  in different ways.

 

The difference with Rachel is the storyline is framed so on several big occasions  the raisin-detre of every other character is to help, abet and witness the Rachel Triumph.  Even as late as "Opening Night" every other character literally serves no purpose in that episode but to revolve around Rachel's success and celebrate it.  We are told of other success but Glee wallows in her successes.   It just is what it is.

 

Even among Glee "success stories" Rachel stands like a hundred feet above everyone else.

Edited January 6, 2015 by caracas1914

[Hana Chan]

Where Rachel differs from all other characters on the show is when she fails, it's not because she's not good enough or someone might be more talented. It's because she makes idiot decisions and overreaches. Rachel is enormously talented (and I'll just go along with the canon line) and is supposed to be "special". She is, however, very inexperienced and naïve. She is trying to succeed in an industry that is overflowing with highly talented people where rightly she would be facing performers at least as talented as she is for the jobs she wanted. The only way to make Rachel's pre-ordained rise at all interesting or suspenseful is acknowledging that Rachel might not succeed. Acknowledge the reality that there are plenty of enormously talented people that don't make it and that while Rachel's talent gives her a good (better than average) chance of succeeding, that nothing is a sure thing for her. If the show was going to make Rachel's journey (as an individual as opposed to being part of a group) once she graduated, then they had to make that journey interesting. Watching Rachel since season three has become the equivalent of watching a one horse race - there are only so many times that we can watch her trot around the track and be declared the winner before we emotionally check out.

 

And when Rachel fails, it's not because she actually fails (in that her talent falls short in some way). It's because she overreaches. Her arrogance (and she's no longer just confident, but is very arrogant in her value as a performer) is her single flaw that trips her up. And on the very, very rare occasions where Rachel's talent isn't quite all that, she gets propped up by the ones who have been schooling her. Cassandra is rightly critical of her (and I'll be generous here) mediocre dancing, yet gives her a pass on her exam not because Rachel's earned it, but so her schooling wouldn't stand in the way of her callback opportunity. Kurt manages (for a novel change) to beat her out in a head to head contest,  we get a few minutes of Rachel feeling sorry for herself before Kurt reassures her that she is the most talented person ever and that she is going to audition for Funny Girl. Her television show flopping is the first time in forever that she really loses and no one is going to swoop in to save her from her mistakes

 

Rachel's storyline could have been done well had they just her lose once in a while and keep some suspense that things aren't so written in stone. They also could have cut down on Rachel's arrogance being the primary factor in Rachel's few real failures. Rachel as the small fish in the big NYADA/NYC pond could have been interesting. Not watching her win everything just by existing. Show a rough audition process for Funny Girl where she's lost in a sea of other young hopefuls as well as Broadway veterans and competition would be steep. Have her real inexperience be more than a momentary concern for the director (and instead of her getting the lead right of the bat, give her the understudy position). Show that it's not going to be nearly so easy or so certain. Not stacking win upon win to the point that it's just boring. 

Edited January 6, 2015 by Hana Chan

[Anna Yolei]

I think with Mercedes in a way initially the treatment was worse. Think about it, Rachel, Quinn, Santana and Brittany all received some kind of competition spotlight before Mercedes, (with Britt yes it was dancing) who was even in canon, considered Rachel's biggest female competition. The implication was jarring as Mercedes was both a POC and not the perceived ideal female figure. Even after S2 Sectionals when she and Tina were given "The Dog Days are over" (ironically a better performance vocally than the competitions that episode) she was addressed as the "unsung heroes".

So while Mercedes went OOC ballistic in the WSS SL, I found it odd (and yes IMO some of it was veiled racism) the intense backlash she got from fans when her character finally exploded.

I agree Mercedes has been shafted more than any other female that isn't Tina. I don't post on Glee-centric message boards, so I was surprised to hear of the vitriol that she (and Samcedes by extension) has gotten over the years. Her bring upset with Rachel getting the role of Maria in light of losing to her on every solo in the club is one of the very few things TIIC got right in season 3.

[SevenStars]

I agree Mercedes has been shafted more than any other female that isn't Tina. I don't post on Glee-centric message boards, so I was surprised to hear of the vitriol that she (and Samcedes by extension) has gotten over the years. Her bring upset with Rachel getting the role of Maria in light of losing to her on every solo in the club is one of the very few things TIIC got right in season 3.

I wasn't surprise to hear the vitriol she got because of this story and Samcedes. It was just sad to see it. 

[camussie]

Just like how they made Quinn an uber-bitch to justify Finn wanting to leave her for Rachel while he thought she was pregnant with his baby. I hate these manipulative games when in order to make a new pairing look good they have to throw someone from the older pairing under the bus.

 

 

i really don't think this was the case in season 1 as Quinn's original characterization was that she was a insecure girl obsessed with her popularity to the point where she would rather lie about being pregnant with Finn's kid than admit it was Puck's even though Puck was the one she really had feelings for (which made her resent Finn all the more).  I thought it was made pretty clear that the reason she was "mean" to Finn was not because she was just a horrible person but rather because she was letting her insecurities, fueled in part by her parents and their obsession with social status, drive her actions.  She hated herself for doing and she took it out on Finn.  Certainly not right but also not thrown under the bus with no explanation given for her behavior.

 

To me this was crystallized with two things - telling Mercedes not to get obsessed with her looks to the point where she is unhappy (obviously something Quinn knew about from experience) and thanking Rachel for being the only one brave enough to tell the truth.  Quinn seemed glad the truth was out there despite it blowing up her world.  

Edited January 6, 2015 by camussie

[Hana Chan]

But they also dropped the bomb, almost immediately after revealing that Quinn was pregnant, that Finn wasn't the father. That all of her poor treatment of him became even less excusable since the baby she was carrying wasn't his. The whole thing was set up to make Finn's drifting towards Rachel while his girlfriend was pregnant more justifiable to the audience.

 

And yes, I know that it was the same pattern with Will and Terri. It's a tiresome pattern.

[caracas1914]

I actually liked season one Quinn, that is I understood what drove the character, as bitchy and manipulative as she was.  God knows she wasn't justified what she did, but I could see why she did it...parents who wanted an ideal PC correct family, pressures to be the perfect Cheerleader goddess, and suddenly pregnant while president of the Celibacy Club with the boy, Puck, who let's just say wasn't the most responsible boy in the school.  I mean I love Puck...but seriously...

 

So there was genuine pressures on La Quinn which made her make some very questionable actions, ie manipulating Finn into thinking he was the father...

[camussie]

I just felt like the show went to great lengths to show that Quinn was trapped in a "hell" of her own making so, while she was mean to Finn which made his drifting to Rachel somewhat understandable, she was also so lost in her right and it was almost tragic how she had no one to turn to - not even really the boyfriend who thought he got her pregnant.  In other words I never felt it was as clear cut as Quinn is a lying witch who is manipulating Finn therefore you should want Finn/Rachel together. 

 

To me there is a lot of difference between the writing Quinn got in season 1, where we saw and understood what drove her questionable actions even as I also was rooting for Finn and Rachel, to the let's throw Brody under the bus and make him a gigolo writing in season 4 (a plot point I hate to this day even though I thought Brody was a dud of a character and Dean/Lea had the chemistry of wet paper towel).  

 

As i have said before, as much as I rail against the writing in later seasons, I think the writing for the first 13 and to a lesser degree the back 9 was really good and still the primary reason Glee became as successful as quickly as it did.  Jane, Matt, Lea, and Cory were also big factors but the biggest was the writing, including how they incorporated the songs.

Edited January 6, 2015 by camussie

[KatWay]

I thought the show wasn't really making Quinn the bad guy at all, which to me was even a bit odd at times, because I didn't understand how she (or Puck) didn't get more flack for trying to pass off that baby as Finn's (and making him and his mom pay the expenses during that time). But the show seemed to view her more as a tragic character by then and she was even given the sympathetic edit in a few scenes with Finn. She was demanding and bitchy, but Finn was also, I think, portrayed as not stepping up to the plate, for behaving inappropriately and his behaviour with Rachel was just shown as true love prevails or something (though there was the undercurrent of "meant to be") but as something that got him into trouble with both girls.

 

Brody, yeah, the sudden gigolo reveal came out of nowhere and was only in there to kill that pairing quick and clean to go back to Finchel anvils. The end of that pairing could have come about much more organic, since Brody seemed kind of sleazy and free-spirited and a total yes-man (I feel like all his dialogue was proclaiming Rachel the hottest or most talented girl of all), so someone who would be in for the fun but probably bail if things got too stressful or too much work. And Rachel could be a lot of work.

[camussie]

I thought the show wasn't really making Quinn the bad guy at all, which to me was even a bit odd at times, because I didn't understand how she (or Puck) didn't get more flack for trying to pass off that baby as Finn's (and making him and his mom pay the expenses during that time).

 

 

I thought that was a disconnect in the writing too.  Well that and Quinn being a part of Terri's baby plan and Will not having any reaction to that.  I chalk it up to the show not knowing how to follow through on plots.  It seems like they just wanted the pregnancy stories to be over ergo Finn and Will were just over what I still consider the two biggest betrayals on the show.  As I have said before that lack of follow through was really the canary in the coal mine of how WTF Glee's writing would get over the years.

 

As for how to end Brody/rachel I still think they should have used Brody obviously reveling in pitting Rachel and Kurt against each other to end it,  Have Rachel say to him you know after my life was blown apart last summer I thought all I had left was my career so I was down with focusing on it to the exclusion of everything else but now I realize that, while I still want to succeed I don't want think I need to throw my friendships out the door to do so.   

[indeed]

Jane, Matt, Lea, and Cory were also big factors but the biggest was the writing, including how they incorporated the songs.

I'd add Chris to that list since Kurt was a breakout character from the start.

Yeah, watching the first season of this show actually made one think it had good writing. Oh, how the opposite is true now (and has been for quite some painful time).

[jaytee1812]

Yeah, watching the first season of this show actually made one think it had good writing. Oh, how the opposite is true now (and has been for quite some painful time).

I don't think the writing was ever that good, it's just that that there were a lot more distractions early on.

[jaytee1812]

I personally am very grateful  for good supporting characters, no show can do without lt them.

No they can't and Glee has some excellent supporting characters. The problem the show has is twofold.

One, they're often not supporting characters, they're props which is different. So often they will be sacrificed or be used in a way that either reflects badly on them for no reason or in a way that is completely at odds with their character. The often used example is Mike in Props, it's completely out of character for him to support anyone over Tina, never mind Rachel.

The other problem is this show likes to toot its own horn about having a diverse cast but it's leads are all white, and apart from Rachel, white men. So when our leads get what they want either with the help of or by beating the supporting characters it leaves the writing looking racist and misogynist.

[tom87]

I think every character has been sacrifice and used but sure the supporting cast has probably suffered that more often but  that is still part of the supporting role. So you say prop, I say support, we will have  agree to disagree on that.  

 

I just wanted to say I was thankful for them in the role they play.

 

And no one is arguing with you about them dropping the ball on many issues.   

 

I just am  trying (it is hard sometimes) to look for some positives cause the negativity gets me nowhere.  

Edited January 7, 2015 by tom87

[camussie]

From his lack of intellect to his subpar sexual performance.  He was pathetic in every way.

 

 

Santana said he was subpar (and often most guys are their first time) but Rachel was satisfied.  After all she slept with him while with Brody in an open relationship so he must have had something she liked.  As for his lack of intellect he wasn't the most book smart guy (to say the least) but he did seem to know how to read people and rally them to a cause which, to me, means he had some real "soft skill" gifts that many people, including Rachel, often did not have.  Just to name a few times he did that

• Getting the original "Don't Stop Believing" group together.  It was him who came up with the music, fit people into roles that suited them, and thought of the music
• In sectionals, despite everyone but Rachel lying to him about the baby, he pulled them together (after a pep talk from Mr Shue) when they were down because of their songs being stolen.  Frankly if he left them all hanging I wouldn't have blamed him one bit.  None of them, especially his best friend, seemed to care that they were completely screwing with his future.  It still burns me up to this day how little fall-out came from that huge betrayal.
• In regionals, when everyone else, including Rachel, was ready to give up he was pushing them on
• In the championship game he got the cheerios to come back and help
• In Funeral he brought the Glee club together to support Sue
• He rallied the guys together to support Puck when he was borderline to graduate because he was failing one class (and yes I know he didn't help Brittany but Brittany was failing every class not just one so the entire school banding together could not have helped her)

 

Now, like all of the characters, his characterization could be all over the map but it was fairly consistent, that there was something in him where he was able to bring people together for the "greater good."

Edited January 8, 2015 by camussie

[jaytee1812]

I know a lot of people didn't like Finn being stuck in Lima and I agree, but he did work really well in coaching the glee club. He gives Unique a chance as Rizzo in Grease, he recruits Ryder, and is basically responsible for Jake and Ryder's friendship, and I seem to recall him being there for Marley after she fainted and they lost sectionals.

Having said that I always thought it was weird he was barely shown to ever talk to Jake or Kitty.

[caracas1914]

I actually thought the mentor/student relationship ala Finn  worked best with Marley.  Together in the courtyard thinking no one else is coming, before "Don't Dream it's over" starts.

 

That whole number is the one time that a group number with the Noobs made any sense, and alot of that is due to Cory and his acting.

 

Finn was a mess at times, but Cory made you empathize with the big lug.

Edited January 8, 2015 by caracas1914

[camussie]

I actually liked it as a start to his post graduation story because I thought it really highlighted his high emotional intelligence - a trait he started out with but one that also came and went with whatever plot point they wanted to tell.  My issue was that it was his entire post graduation journey story.  

 

I still say the second it went off the rails was that god awful "winning isn't everything even though I just won showcase" call from Rachel.  I still feel that Finn bring the Glee club all together against should have completely within him much like I feel like Brody being kicked to the curb should have come completely from Rachel rather than whole gigolo mess that Santana/Finn took care of.  Both of those were instances where their individual stories were shafted to try and tell the romance/throw shippers a gone.

 

Anyway following episode 409, Finn basically became Will of seasons 2 and 3 while Blam! were the leads of McKinley.  He got a Coda in 419 when he went to college but really after 409 I feel like we saw what he was going to be doing for the rest of his run on Glee - riding that damn white board while he went going to college (mostly off screen) and having a had a mid-game love interest or 2 (confined to the walls of McKinley).

 

To be clear I have always said the mistake was the plan to keep Finn in Lima permanently. He should have been in college when Glee came back from the season 4 holiday break and he should have been transferring to a school away from Lima by the end of the school year (which should have been the end of season 4).  I didn't even care if that college was in NY as long as he went away to college (hell I would have settled for Cory being off the show while Finn was in college in some other location).  Then if he chose to come back to Lima after having that experience I would have been good with that as well.  I just wanted him to have that choice versus "learning to accept" Lima is where he belonged.  

Edited January 8, 2015 by camussie

[caracas1914]

I know we've beat this do death but the show always telegraphed that Finn wanted more than the BMOC moniker that the show stuck on him in the pilot.   It's like he knew how useless it was, especially in a one cow town, and wanting to express himself by performing was something that came through in early Finn.

 

What the show did was contrast Rachel's drive for stardom with Finn's ambivalence, and that storyline did neither a favor because the writers never reconciled if their positions in the end were so intractable (Rachel headed for the lights of NY, Finn happy and comfortable only in small town Lima) why should they be endgame soul mates.  You'd think soul mates were more in tune with each others' needs both ways and make it work somehow. 

 

FWIW, I take Ryan Murphy's fadeout with a grain of salt.  IF the ratings had imploded even if Cory hadn't died, he would have reunited Rachel/Finn sooner then later.   He had never planned to ditch the Noobs originally is all I'm saying, his rep was seemingly on the line and yet when forced he did it.  Ditto hooking up Rachel and Finn.

Edited January 8, 2015 by caracas1914

[camussie]

I agree for the first three seasons Finn never seemed happy and comfortable in Lima nor his BMOC role.  I felt like he wanted something more but he needed to learn to believe in himself more - something Rachel could inspire him to do.  Conversely Rachel knew she was destined for stardom but she was lonely and really the "something special" she wanted to a part of was not only an award winning choir and Broadway show and a group of friends that loved and supported each other - something Finn and being in ND could inspire her to do.  That is why I felt "Opening Night" was a fitting  conclusion to her original story - the focus wasn't so much on her success on stage but rather how this group of friends loved and supported each other.  Rachel's speech to Sue could have been a fade out monologue with a graphic saying "thus concludes Rachel's original story - she has success on BW and she is a part of something special"

 

For 3 seasons that was fairly consistent with both of them and then in season 4 Finn was suddenly content to never leave Lima - trashing his original story in order to make sure the newbies had one of the lead characters to anchor them which in turn made a Finn/Rachel reunion intractable.  RM, if he got his way, was never going to solve that issue but rather give us that godawful "I'm Home" ending.

 

Now the question is would he have gotten his way?  I think if ratings imploded, even if Cory had not passed, he would have been forced to one narrative so F/R would have been in the same place but I also think no matter what F/R would not have reunited romantically until the last 5 minutes of the show.  The upside would have been that there would have been a bit more adherence to Finn's original story - that he wanted to prove himself away from Lima.  He just had to find the courage to do so.  The downside would have been even more contrived crud to keep F/R apart until the last 5 minutes of the series even as they probably lived across the hall from each other a la Ross/Rachel in friends.

Edited January 8, 2015 by camussie

[jaytee1812]

I actually thought the mentor/student relationship ala Finn  worked best with Marley.  Together in the courtyard thinking no one else is coming, before "Don't Dream it's over" starts.

I always thought the one thing that was weird with trying to promote the noobs is that they blew almost every chance for a newbie to have any sort of relationship with the original cast. The three that stand out they had were Puck and Jake which was dropped for no reason, Finn mentoring Marley and Kitty/Artie's relationship but the potential was there for many more, especially with the originals who were left. It was like Blam, Tina and Artie were in a different show from the noobs at times.

This might just be me but I always thought designating Marley 'the new Rachel' was strange because she always reminded me of Finn. But I'm not exactly sure why.

[caracas1914]

For what it's worth, with the shitty writing of Glee, even if they never went the Noobs  back  in Season 4, IMO Glee  would he hard pressed even with the Originals to have   lasted beyond a full Season 6. Maybe a Season 7, who knows?

Edited January 8, 2015 by caracas1914

[camussie]

Oh I agree.  Had they never tried to split the baby and had Cory never passed the show still would have ended after 6 seasons.  Probably not quite the ratings joke it has become but still ended.  Why?  Because even from what little we got of NYADA in season 4 it seems they were simply transferring a lot of the high school stories to that setting. 

Edited January 8, 2015 by camussie

[phoenixrising]

The way the newbies weren't integrated was always really weird to me. I remember in the New Rachel, I thought they were setting up Sam/Marley (which yes, keep Sam away from Brittany. It would've been better for everyone). I did tend to enjoy the newbies the most when they were interacting with old people. I thought Brittany and Marley were funny together, and some of the Marley/Finn stuff was kind of nice. Finn trying to get Ryder/Jake to chill out was one of the better parts of season 4 in McKinley.

 

Honestly, I think the larger problem was Blamtina and Brittany were not going to be capable of anchoring the newbies. 

[jaytee1812]

The way the newbies weren't integrated was always really weird to me. I remember in the New Rachel, I thought they were setting up Sam/Marley (which yes, keep Sam away from Brittany. It would've been better for everyone). I did tend to enjoy the newbies the most when they were interacting with old people. I thought Brittany and Marley were funny together, and some of the Marley/Finn stuff was kind of nice. Finn trying to get Ryder/Jake to chill out was one of the better parts of season 4 in McKinley.

Honestly, I think the larger problem was Blamtina and Brittany were not going to be capable of anchoring the newbies.

It think putting Tina anywhere Blaine and Sam was awful. They came over as condescending and patronising at best and manipulative at worst. I lost count of the number of songs that was them, Artie and sometimes the other guys patronising Tina in a song.

And the thing that really boils my piss about it is the glee club should've been lead by Tina and Artie. Jenna and Kevin could handle much better than Darren and Chord. And it would make sense since they were original members and also much more talented.

[jaytee1812]

The trip episode had Sam, Blaine, and Tina treating Artie like crap. And thats when I realized they were jerks. They had a big moment at the start of the episode where the three of them were like, "well we're seniors and everything is ending, aww, hugs guys!" and Artie tried to get in on it and THEY PUSHED HIS WHEELCHAIR AWAY! Then that stupid lock in that they didn't invite him too. Jerks.

Tina should've been a jerk to Artie after the previous episode where he was perfectly comfortable assaulting her then whined like a baby when she pushed him back. Another episode where they had Tina patronised in song.

So Artie feels comfortable assaulting women, having unprotected sex and doesn't know what consent is. What a prince.

[jaytee1812]

I knew Kitty was sticking around seeing as how she was the only newbie that was worth a damn...

 

I'd take Jake, Marley and Ryder over Sam, Blaine or Brittany any day of the week. Not their fault they had the shittiest writing this show ever served up, and that's saying something.

[wingster55]

So Artie feels comfortable assaulting women, having unprotected sex and doesn't know what consent is. What a prince.

 

I agree with the consent part but when did the first one happen (not touching the middle one)

[jaytee1812]

I agree with the consent part but when did the first one happen (not touching the middle one)

Frenimies. He pushes Tina about then whines like a little boy when she pushes back.

The middle one I just assumed because of Tested.

[wingster55]

I don't recall him pushing her but I'll take your word for it. 

[camussie]

I was watching some Glee reruns this weekend and I wanted to note a few things about the "Home" episode in season 1

• I had forgotten how earnestly Kurt was focused on serenading Finn with A House Is Not a Home.  He was staring directly in his eyes about 3-4 feet away from him the entire time.  It added context to why Finn felt so uncomfortable a few episodes later when he was told they were going to share a room.  That doesn't excuse him AT ALL using the F word.  It just adds some context to it.

• Cory had no business singing  "A House is not a Home."  Just god awful.  Way out of his range and ability (at that time) although it would have never been a good song for him,

• The way Carole told Finn about Burt was ass backwards if she wanted him to be accepting of the whole thing.  She just started replacing furniture and then only told him about Burt when he asked what was going on.  Meanwhile Kurt had known about the romance for the month it had been going on.  Not a good way to add trust among the potential family unit and also adds context to Finn's reaction in "Theatricality" especially when the same thing happened again - Carole, Burt, and Kurt all knew about the move and Finn had it sprung on him with that party.

• Still after having some teenage angst and a hilarious pouting session at their family dinner (Cory was so dang spot on as a petulant teen in that scene) Finn ended up accepting Burt - even saying he should sit in his father's chair.
• On one hand I got Kurt got jealous that Burt and Finn were bonding over sports.  On the other I wanted him to get over himself.  After all he and Carole were bonding too and it never occurred to him that might bother Finn (it didn't).  Also it wasn't like Burt didn't try and take an interest in Kurt's activities.  He obviously went to productions Kurt liked (Riverdance).  
• I wish they had continued on with the Mercedes/Quinn friendship.  I really liked their vibe.  A lot.
• Matt and Kristin Chenowith were awesome on "Fire."  Best duet partners ever on the show.
• I love Chenowith but April's rendition of "Home" at the end of the episode, while well done, was one song too many for her in the episode.
• On a random note - lord Cory was noticeably taller than the rest of the cast.  When they were all doing "Beautiful" he just seemed to tower over all of them - even Harry and Mark who were the next closest in height.  I think the closest they ever came to having someone near his height was Rory.

 

All of this leads to my conclusion.  RM and team  gave ample reason why Finn would have been uncomfortable sharing a room with Kurt and then seem surprised when many in the audience were like it wasn't as cut and dried as you all wrote it in Theatricality.  

Edited January 13, 2015 by camussie