Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[SeanC]

You're right that this has never really happened before. I think this is the first time where an adaptation has started before the original material has finished, and will also end before the original material finishes.

It's not unheard of with anime adaptations of manga, though I can't think of a high profile Western property that has done this.  Well, Scott Pilgrim, kind of.

Edited April 25, 2016 by SeanC

[nksarmi]

But I think those minor POV's you mentioned are all going to end up dead.  Maybe in different ways but dead all the same.   And  though they drastically changed some arcs I still expect them to come to the same end as their counter parts, it's just clearly going to be a different road.   Though I grant you one unique circumstance in the book form of Willas Tyrell, GRRM has spoken like the character has a large role to play and I got the impression it was something beyond inheriting Highgarden. 

 

One thing worth considering is, will GRRM finish?   I am in line with those who think he has a palpable level of disinterest in the series now, and if he doesn't does the SHOW become cannon?  Will he one day just release paragraphs summing up the fate of each character?   I'm trying to think of another book/show adaptation that's beein in this situation and I honestly can't.

 

I can't find the quote now, but I am almost certain that GRRM has said that the show has killed people who will survive the book series. I no longer believe the exclusion from the show equals death in the books - nor do I believe death on the show equals death in the books. I think they are only going to hit the broadest of strokes in the same way - at best.

[nksarmi]

I'm almost certain the Harry Potter movies series began before the books were complete, but they never caught up with her. I believe True Blood started before the author wrapped the series, but again - she wrapped before they did and they still choose to ignore her work and go their own way. 

 

Several chapters of book 6 have been released so I'm sure he's near completion.  I don't know how easy the last book will be to write, but if he plunges right into it - I'm sure we will see it sooner rather than later.  The characters should be rolling toward their end game by then - what's he's doing now is probably the hardest thing - finally getting the chess pieces where they need to be for the final leg of the journey.

 

I HOPE he's getting annoyed enough with the show that he will give us HIS ending.

[Advance35]

I can't find the quote now, but I am almost certain that GRRM has said that the show has killed people who will survive the book series. I no longer believe the exclusion from the show equals death in the books - nor do I believe death on the show equals death in the books. I think they are only going to hit the broadest of strokes in the same way - at best.

 

Yes, I recall his "butterfly effect" I believe he referenced the characters of Marillion (whom tried to rape Sansa at the Fingers) and Willas Tyrell, but then he adds the caveat of ending up in the same place.  I agree with those who think GRRM is going to take a more nuanced path (or he'll try, because I really think his last 2 books haven't been that great) IMO.

 

 

Several chapters of book 6 have been released so I'm sure he's near completion.  I don't know how easy the last book will be to write, but if he plunges right into it - I'm sure we will see it sooner rather than later.

 

Endured far too long a waiting game to believe this.

 

I have to disagree that GRRM can get the characters to the horizon of their endgame by the end of TWOW.  There are simply WAY to many characters for me to believe that.  He's planning on introducing characters, RE-introducing characters and left over plots like The War of the Queens (Cersei/Margaery), LF & Sansa, Dany, Aegon, Jon Snow, there are just too many plot threads.   It's the only reason I doubt the conclusion of the series.   I question whether he can fit it all in 2 more books.  I'm throwing a coin in a well in hopes of getting TWOW, my admittedly pessimistic outlook is that ADOS is a pipe dream.

 

Some things feel rushed on the show but I question GRRM's ability to make it not seem rushed in his novels.  Some of those sample chapters caused a bit of eye-brow raising because fans felt that some of the character developments were "rushed."   I'd like to read the series as a whole but I really feel like GRRM is to much of an "Artiste" to finish when he can't easily connect with his muse.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Advance35

[benteen]

His description of his writing style, how he's like a gardener who likes to plant the seeds and see what grows from it, doesn't exactly inspire confidence.  He's shown a complete lack of control with his writing and allowed the story to bloat dramatically.  He can't control himself.

[Statman]

His description of his writing style, how he's like a gardener who likes to plant the seeds and see what grows from it, doesn't exactly inspire confidence.  He's shown a complete lack of control with his writing and allowed the story to bloat dramatically.  He can't control himself.

 

Indeed.

 

I have zero faith that WoW will be released before the end of this year and I highly doubt the final book will be written at all by him.

[Eyes High]

His description of his writing style, how he's like a gardener who likes to plant the seeds and see what grows from it, doesn't exactly inspire confidence.  He's shown a complete lack of control with his writing and allowed the story to bloat dramatically.  He can't control himself.

 

The only way GRRM could get ASOIAF back on track would be to kill 75% of the cast. I suspect that this is more or less what D&D will do the closer they get to the end, regardless of whether or not the TV victims actually perish in the books. I suspect Doran and Trystane's murders are a preview. It will be "essential personnel only." I think anyone who isn't essential, so pretty much anyone who isn't one of the core characters, a token representative of some group (Tormund for the wildlings, Grey Worm for the Unsullied, etc.), or a critical person to those core characters, is going to get got in the show. 

 

Maisie Williams in particular has talked about getting this palpable sense from Season 6 of driving to the end. To me, at least, that suggests means tying up storylines, getting characters converging, and tying characters who were previously off doing their own thing into the main plotline. Most of all, though, to me it means killing off a ton of characters.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Eyes High

[Advance35]

His description of his writing style, how he's like a gardener who likes to plant the seeds and see what grows from it, doesn't exactly inspire confidence.  He's shown a complete lack of control with his writing and allowed the story to bloat dramatically.  He can't control himself.

 

 

Which is a shame since creativity in a writer is always a good thing or at least would be in just about any other situation.   He know's where the characters are, he knows where the characters are going, but the path to get them there can/does/has changed goodness knows how many times.

 

I'm not a show apologist, I can make a laundry list of things I think they should have done or done better or in some cases, not done, but streamlining this particular body of work, I can't imagine it.  This has become a lively fandom, but I think the Sansa Season Outcry is going to seem like a back-net, one-post complaint compared to the fandom when everyone realizes/accepts that GRRM won't finish the saga and it's the show that'll tell us where everyone ends up.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Advance35

[nksarmi]

I am totally waffling on this.  I once thought we would only get the show's ending and I was ok with that.  But now I want GRRM's ending - I just want it only two books lol.  I think he can condense the story down and set everyone up for the end game over the course of book six - I'm just not confident he wants to.

 

But I don't think he will NOT finish if he can. And honestly - once the show ends - he'll have time on his hands.  So the show ending might be the best thing in the world for motivating him to write (you know - the paycheck!). If for some reason, he did get sick - I would hope he would hand his notes over to a ghost writer so it could be finished. That way he would get the credit even posthumously.  But hopefully that isn't the case.

[ParadoxLost]

I am totally waffling on this.  I once thought we would only get the show's ending and I was ok with that. 

 

I think its unlikely he'll ever finish.  Maybe he'll get the next one out if we can assume the bulk of it has been written before this season airs.  But I think its more likely that the end of the story, or at least a version of it, being shown in the TV show before the book will demotivate GRRM to finish DoS. 

[Hecate7]

You've counted Littlefinger twice: with the Lannisters and with the Starks.  Personally, I think LF is on team LF.  Whatever works best for his interests is what he will do.  Right now that seems to be taking the North through Sansa.  Even since the series started, LF has had a hard-on for the Starks (plotting to blame the Lannisters for the assassination attempt on Brandon, and betraying Ned).  I think it's clear he wants all of Westeros.  He controls the Vale, he's Lord Paramount of the Riverlands (can't remember if the show gave him that title when they gave him Harren Hall), and now he's gunning for the North.  He wants to exact his revenge on the Tullys and the Starks for the slights he believes he suffered at their hands.

 

As for Daenerys getting new ships, I don't think the Martells are known for their fleet.  It's more likely that they'll have the Ironborn connect with Dany by having one of the characters we know take on part of Victarion's role in the books.

 

It is more likely, yes. However, the Martells don't have to be known for their fleet to have one. They do seem to have one. The Ironborn live by ships, so they would have the most, and possibly the best as well, but Dany isn't planning to raid up and down the coast forever. She just needs to get her entire army, entourage, and dragons there safely. She needs a good strong well-defended fleet, but she doesn't necessarily need a famous one.

 

Yes, I have counted Littlefinger twice, because as you observed, he's on his own team, and serves other teams as benefits him. Right now he's playing Bishop to two opposing teams, without being loyal to either one.

[Eyes High]

It seems weird that D&D would contrive for Dany to get a bunch of ships via Daario, seemingly bypassing the whole Ironborn thing, and then have them burned in Season 6. Either they changed their minds about having Dany make use of Ironborn ships, or they gave her the ships initially to make her decision to remain in Meereen and rule more meaningful (since she had the choice to sail for Westeros and chose not to do so).

[ElizaD]

I'm inclined to think that the ships were included as an easy way out of Meereen if the Ironborn were cut; a bit like Stannis not having sons in season 2 so they could still cast his daughter in season 3. When they decided to go with Yara apparently taking Victarion's place, the ships were doomed and it only took one scene to get them out of the way.

[Maximum Taco]

6 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

It seems weird that D&D would contrive for Dany to get a bunch of ships via Daario, seemingly bypassing the whole Ironborn thing, and then have them burned in Season 6. Either they changed their minds about having Dany make use of Ironborn ships, or they gave her the ships initially to make her decision to remain in Meereen and rule more meaningful (since she had the choice to sail for Westeros and chose not to do so).

I think D&D are always looking for shortcuts around George's story. Which, honestly they have to, since adapting a series like ASOIAF completely faithfully is just an unfeasible task.

They think, "Oh let's give Dany ships, and then maybe we won't even have to introduce the Ironborn at all!" then later on when they decide they either have to, or want to introduce the Ironborn then they have all her ships burn so they serve a purpose in her story.  It's a smarter way to do things, as opposed to the Dornish storyline, when they cut out essential characters and plots and then had nothing to build on there. They can always burn ships down, it's lazy and contrived, but atleast it makes sense; they can't introduce Arianne and Quentyn as previously unseen characters when they've already established Trystane as the only son and heir of Doran.

[SeanC]

19 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Either they changed their minds about having Dany make use of Ironborn ships, or they gave her the ships initially to make her decision to remain in Meereen and rule more meaningful (since she had the choice to sail for Westeros and chose not to do so).

I think it definitely accentuates the choice Dany makes, and keeps their options open for writing Dany's eventual trip to Westeros.  As we saw, they could always dramatically destroy the ships if they became inconvenient.

[proserpina65]

23 hours ago, ElizaD said:

I'm inclined to think that the ships were included as an easy way out of Meereen if the Ironborn were cut; a bit like Stannis not having sons in season 2 so they could still cast his daughter in season 3. When they decided to go with Yara apparently taking Victarion's place, the ships were doomed and it only took one scene to get them out of the way.

Stannis had no living sons in the books either.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

Stannis had no living sons in the books either.

What was meant was that they avoided having Stannis say he had no children, just "sons".

[proserpina65]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

What was meant was that they avoided having Stannis say he had no children, just "sons".

Thanks for the clarification.

[Hecate7]

On 4/25/2016 at 6:43 PM, nksarmi said:

I am totally waffling on this.  I once thought we would only get the show's ending and I was ok with that.  But now I want GRRM's ending - I just want it only two books lol.  I think he can condense the story down and set everyone up for the end game over the course of book six - I'm just not confident he wants to.

 

But I don't think he will NOT finish if he can. And honestly - once the show ends - he'll have time on his hands.  So the show ending might be the best thing in the world for motivating him to write (you know - the paycheck!). If for some reason, he did get sick - I would hope he would hand his notes over to a ghost writer so it could be finished. That way he would get the credit even posthumously.  But hopefully that isn't the case.

He's not going to get sick. He'll bury us all. But he's also not going to finish the books, because he's currently suffering from "When I'm Damn Good And Ready" Syndrome. I think he may simply be too angry to do it.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Hecate7

[Maximum Taco]

5 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

He's not going to get sick. He'll bury us all. But he's also not going to finish the books, because he's currently suffering from "When I'm Damn Good And Ready" Syndrome. I think he may simply be too angry to do it.

I don't think that is the case.

He's already stopped doing things he reportedly likes doing (writing episodes for the show, editing projects, attending cons etc) and has said he won't take on any projects until Winds is done, that doesn't sound like "When I'm damn good and ready" it sounds more like he's struggling with ability, not motivation.

If he was saying "I'll do it when I feel like doing it" he would just give us the old ADWD spiel when he was like "I'm not gonna chain myself to my desk, I'm a person who has other things to do. It'll be finished when it's finished, now shut up"

Edited April 29, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[nksarmi]

I would hope that if nothing else - the paycheck would be motivation to finish.

[Oscirus]

I think poor Martin is suffering from the show's success. He's probably finished the book ten times over but he's desperately trying to reach unrealistic goals by making sure the book is perfect.

[Eyes High]

On 4/27/2016 at 9:58 AM, Maximum Taco said:

I think D&D are always looking for shortcuts around George's story. Which, honestly they have to, since adapting a series like ASOIAF completely faithfully is just an unfeasible task.

Now that we see Season 6 taking shape, I think D&D are doing the following things in relation to the untold parts of ASOIAF in TWOW and beyond:

1. Cutting out entire storylines to streamline the narrative: the biggest casualty is Aegon's storyline and by extension Arianne's. Dorne as a setting independent of Oberyn and Ellaria was almost cut entirely.

2. Redistributing storylines from peripheral characters to core characters to increase the emotional weight or interest for the audience of certain storylines: TV Sansa gets Book Jeyne's storyline, the surviving TV Starks get Book Stannis' fight against the Boltons (since it seems more likely that Book Stannis and Book Ramsay will take each other out), TV Tyrion gets some version of Book Barristan's storyline in Meereen, TV Yara might get some version of Book Victarion's storyline, etc.

3. Cutting the "spare" characters from the show or killing them off once their storylines are redistributed to more central characters: Stannis goes to clear the way for Jon and Sansa, Barristan goes to clear the way for Tyrion, no Victarion, no Jeyne Poole, etc.

4. Giving characters wins that they don't get in the books: TV Jon and TV Sansa look like they're going to get the chance for personal revenge against Ramsay (whereas Book Stannis is going to deal with Ramsay in the books), TV Brienne gets her revenge against Stannis AND successfully finds and rescues a Stark daughter, TV Tyrion gets up close and personal with the dragons without being Quentyned, TV Davos saves the NW men and gets Jon resurrected (while Book Davos is stuck on a likely doomed quest for Rickon), TV Varys is backing Dany instead of Aegon, etc. AFFC and ADWD are full of doomed quests, pointless undertakings, frustration and failure. The show, on the other hand, reflects the understanding that there's only so much doom and gloom the audience can take, and offers a surprising amount of fistpumpery. In the show, there is a lot of promise this season that many of the characters will accomplish what they set out to do: Bran will figure out the truth of R+L=J and will learn what he needs to learn to save Westeros, Dany will bring the Dothraki to heel and get her ships, Tyrion will find some way out of the mess of Meereen without succumbing to the downward spiral he seems to be on in the books, Jon and Sansa will manage to take down Ramsay and reclaim Winterfell, Cersei will get revenge on the Faith Militant through Robert Strong fucking up the sparrows, Yara will lose the Kingsmoot but will get Dany her ships (and Yara looks pretty pleased with herself in the trailer when she's making out with the Volantis girl), etc. Even as things are spiraling more out of control in Westeros, for many of the main characters there is at last the sense of an upward trajectory.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Eyes High

[benteen]

While the results have been a mixed bag, I have no issue with D&D looking for shortcuts around GRRM's story.  Adapting it straight on would be impossible.

Quote

AFFC and ADWD are full of doomed quests, pointless undertakings, frustration and failure. The show, on the other hand, reflects the understanding that there's only so much doom and gloom the audience can take, and offers a surprising amount of fistpumpery.

Definitely one of the stronger changes they made.  I had no interest in seeing Brienne searching for Sansa and Arya in places we knew that they weren't.  It was one of the most frustrating aspect of AFFC.  On the show, we've gotten to see Brienne interact with both Arya and Sansa and we got to see a hell of a fight between Brienne and the Hound.

[snowblossom2]

On May 4, 2016 at 4:11 PM, benteen said:

While the results have been a mixed bag, I have no issue with D&D looking for shortcuts around GRRM's story.  Adapting it straight on would be impossible.

Definitely one of the stronger changes they made.  I had no interest in seeing Brienne searching for Sansa and Arya in places we knew that they weren't.  It was one of the most frustrating aspect of AFFC.  On the show, we've gotten to see Brienne interact with both Arya and Sansa and we got to see a hell of a fight between Brienne and the Hound.

I like the frustrations, failures and pointless undertakings BC it imo reflects real life more accurately.

[Umbelina]

I have to assume they are hitting either important parts of the story that lead to the end game, and a few cinematic parts they simply know will look good on film or they just want to play with.  They have very little comparative time, so for me, it's been most interesting that way.  Aha!  So this fake red herring doesn't matter after all, or Aha!  I thought that whole things was a waste of time, and lookie!  It is! 

I think they've done a good job with Dani.  Although it's terribly frustrating to have her basically circle in place while the real action is somewhere else, it's also been one of the most intelligently written stories in the book.  Dani goes in with all these great intentions, but realizes she has a lot to learn about leading, and that great intentions don't amount to much.  Although I groaned when she stuck around, and grieved with her when things backfired and people ended up suffering MORE, and really hated the dragons being chained up?  I get it.  Those things really would happen.  She was barely more than a child, and naive about her birthright somehow magically conveying the power to be an effective leader straight into her brain.  I like her because when she saw she needed to learn much more before she took on the Iron Throne, she tried to do just that.  The show has handled it pretty well considering the books.

My LEAST favorite is what the show did to Jamie.  In the books, much like Dani's story, I found his to be so believable, so touching, such true writing, this villain, this King Slayer, this incestuous adulterer and a man who tried to kill a child by throwing him out of a window transformed, and the depths we saw in Jamie we quite something to behold.  The changes he went through, the deep honor that was buried under all of life's baggage, the disaster of the love he felt for his twin all became understandable.  Instead we get a rapist, and pretty much an afterthought of a character on the show.  They even add in a RAPE to do this.  Why?

IMO, to bump up Lena's story.  The TV Cersei is almost nothing like book Cersei.  The books showed her pathos, and how the sexism of the time, her cold father, and dead mother, drove her into the arms of her twin.  I could feel that sympathy for her in the books.  TV Cersei may be "bad" but she's been given so many redemptive scenes, scenes to make her much more sympathetic than this shallow, cold woman really is.  Why?  IMO so Lena could act them.  I feel that her character is the most different on screen than in the books of any of the major characters, in order to suck up to the actress.

The other "lets just give her all the scenes we can and we'll call it exposition of several characters to make it fly just because we like the actress" miss was Shae.  Oh please.  Also, frankly the book whore/Tyrion story was quite beautifully done, I get dumping it I guess.  But?  Fail. 

Littlefinger started out being pretty well done, and still has more good scenes than bad, but their are times the TV adaptation of this character gets into mustache twirling that has made me, at several times, groan or laugh out loud.  I don't know if it's really the actor's choice to chew that scenery as a cartoon, but I kind of doubt it, it seems to be a director's choice, and can be a total WTF for me.

I'll leave it there, with a favorite and my personal "didn't work for me" list of a couple of major characters.  Dorne was, in the end, a joke on the show of course, which makes me think it never really mattered anyway, or certainly not in a big way, although I always kind of wondered if Dorne might be able to survive winter a bit more easily.  I guess they've introduced enough of it to throw it in at the end if that's true.  The pirates/vikings are much more palatable on screen than reading about them frankly, because again, I think I resented GRRM suddenly dragging us there.  I love having Bran's story condensed as well, because, really GRRM? 

Overall, I think it's been a pretty successful transition from page to screen though, and that's been wonderful.

[paramitch]

I'm probably in a weird position here. I've read all the books, but overall I feel like the show is honestly -- taken as a work of art -- far better and more beautiful. The books I feel are worthy of respect, but I have never liked the writing or POVs, and I often feel like GRRM is a better worldbuilder than a writer. The only female POVs I've ever bought from him were Arya and (selectively) Brienne. His writing for Dany, Cersei, and others I just found painful and (worse) boring. And the sex scenes! Hilarious. Some of the worst I've ever, ever read. So funny.

So I liked the show and was a passionate, passionate fan. Until last season when the episode about Shireen made me stop watching for a long period (and contemplate quitting entirely). I'm not in this as a masochistic exercise, and that's what the show has begun to feel like. But still -- I came back. But with reservations. At least I'm not conflicted on GRRM however -- I don't care if he ever finishes. I don't personally think he will, and I think he's a perfect example of  a writer whose success has undercut his artistic abilities (I would add Stephen King to this to an enormous degree -- basically, the moment a writer is so famous that editors are superfluous, we're all in trouble, and the predictable dive in quality will arrive shortly after).

In short, I've never ever thought GRRM was a resource or strong point of the show. I just don't think he's a very good writer. He's probably a good storyteller, but that's not quite the same thing.

On 4/29/2016 at 7:04 AM, Maximum Taco said:

He's already stopped doing things he reportedly likes doing (writing episodes for the show, editing projects, attending cons etc) and has said he won't take on any projects until Winds is done, that doesn't sound like "When I'm damn good and ready" it sounds more like he's struggling with ability, not motivation.

I have zero sympathy for the guy. Zero. He's had what, five years to write TWOW? Just... nope. I'm a fantasy fiction writer IRL and I think at a certain point this starts to look like arrogance, especially when he includes 400+ pages of bullcrap in the last book about new characters, regions and motivations that barely hinge on current GoT events (while also tanking several key promising storylines). I mean, what was the point? Not to be a jerk, but the writing is barely serviceable -- certainly not poetic or beautiful enough for people to remember in detail. The one episode I'll remember from last season is "Hardhome," a gorgeous if dark piece of work which had maybe 10% of GRRM in it. 

Apologies for being a jerk, but I'm mad at GRRM. I get that deadlines suck. But he's published THOUSANDS of pages on this crap, at least 1/4 of which already are shown to have little or no bearing on the actual outcome. You bet I'm disappointed. Ugh. And it rankles that it's become public that he no longer even cursorily answers to editors (because he doesn't have to, sigh) -- which hurts him, even if he doesn't appreciate that yet..

There's just no excuse, for me, when you have a series whose publication dates extend back so far (and with an author with so much/so little editorial leeway. His not finishing the final two books in FIVE YEARS is just criminal to me. Ugh. I think he's gotten lost in the trees (for at least two books now) instead of concentrating on the forest of his story. I've been angered so often to discover that I was following or rooting for characters who would have NO bearing on the books' resolution ultimately (QUENTYN!). Such a waste.

On 5/4/2016 at 10:50 AM, Eyes High said:

EDITED FOR REPLY:

1. Cutting out entire storylines to streamline the narrative: the biggest casualty is Aegon's storyline and by extension Arianne's. Dorne as a setting independent of Oberyn and Ellaria was almost cut entirely.

2. Redistributing storylines from peripheral characters to core characters to increase the emotional weight or interest for the audience of certain storylines: TV Sansa gets Book Jeyne's storyline, the surviving TV Starks get Book Stannis' fight against the Boltons (since it seems more likely that Book Stannis and Book Ramsay will take each other out), TV Tyrion gets some version of Book Barristan's storyline in Meereen, TV Yara might get some version of Book Victarion's storyline, etc.

3. Cutting the "spare" characters from the show or killing them off once their storylines are redistributed to more central characters: Stannis goes to clear the way for Jon and Sansa, Barristan goes to clear the way for Tyrion, no Victarion, no Jeyne Poole, etc.

4. Giving characters wins that they don't get in the books: TV Jon and TV Sansa look like they're going to get the chance for personal revenge against Ramsay (whereas Book Stannis is going to deal with Ramsay in the books), TV Brienne gets her revenge against Stannis AND successfully finds and rescues a Stark daughter, TV Tyrion gets up close and personal with the dragons without being Quentyned, TV Davos saves the NW men and gets Jon resurrected (while Book Davos is stuck on a likely doomed quest for Rickon), TV Varys is backing Dany instead of Aegon, etc. AFFC and ADWD are full of doomed quests, pointless undertakings, frustration and failure. The show, on the other hand, reflects the understanding that there's only so much doom and gloom the audience can take, and offers a surprising amount of fistpumpery. In the show, there is a lot of promise this season that many of the characters will accomplish what they set out to do: Bran will figure out the truth of R+L=J and will learn what he needs to learn to save Westeros, Dany will bring the Dothraki to heel and get her ships, Tyrion will find some way out of the mess of Meereen without succumbing to the downward spiral he seems to be on in the books, Jon and Sansa will manage to take down Ramsay and reclaim Winterfell, Cersei will get revenge on the Faith Militant through Robert Strong fucking up the sparrows, Yara will lose the Kingsmoot but will get Dany her ships (and Yara looks pretty pleased with herself in the trailer when she's making out with the Volantis girl), etc. Even as things are spiraling more out of control in Westeros, for many of the main characters there is at last the sense of an upward trajectory.

I think this is a great idea, but it doesn't work for me. For instance:

(1) Why are we still dealing with Dorne, then,and in a worse storyline even than in the books? What the hell happened to Ellaria? And why are ALL the Sand Snakes acting like my darling Oberyn was murdered versus dying in a public and fair fight? Bleah.

(2) My main problem is that those "peripheral" storylines should never have been peripheral in the first place. Classic example of GRRM's shortcomings as a novelist. I feel like he falls in love with tangents and just goes there, so there we are, 100 pages later, and ... none of it actually matters. And since I find the writing barely serviceable I'm just frustrated. I'm not in this like I am for Tolkien or Pullman for the beauty of the writing. I just want to know what happens. But I feel like GRRM himself can't admit or commit to that and so we get a ton of over the top brutality just so we know how awful his world is. When: got it. Believe me, I never ever wanna go to Westeros. Ever.

(3) This is something the show has honestly excelled at for me until last season. GRRM is in love with taking 50-100 pages to explore people who simply will have no bearing on the outcome, but the show has managed to do so selectively and with great emotion.(Example: Even if I hate Ollie, I totally understand who he is and where he's coming from.)

(4) After Shireen, to be honest, I don't look at any of those as wins. I just assume they're losses delayed. Martin's world isn't one of tough choices, it's an utterly nihilistic one in which absolutely no one can win (unless it's stupid tiresome beautiful dream girl Dany).

I don't mean to sound like such a jerk, but I checked out of my investment in this show (and it was passionate) when Stannis killed Shireen. And then DAVOS barely reacted to the situation and has (further) this season reacted with sympathy to the freaking Red Woman, like, "do you need tea?" and I'm like, "What, to go with your freaking murderous coldhearted fanatical soul? Davos, let her freeze."

 

On 5/4/2016 at 1:11 PM, benteen said:

While the results have been a mixed bag, I have no issue with D&D looking for shortcuts around GRRM's story.  Adapting it straight on would be impossible.

I agree, I just question how much any of these things mean. If we never see Sansa's realization that Arya was protected by The Hound, that's a cheat to me. It bothers me. There is no reason for Brienne not to be honest about the confrontation, dammit. None.

4 hours ago, snowblossom2 said:

I like the frustrations, failures and pointless undertakings BC it imo reflects real life more accurately.

I got disenchanted with the whole "it's meandering and pointless and devastating, just like real lif!" point of view by "AFFC." And hit that wall with the show last season. I honestly think the show is fucking with us at this point. I fully expect the finale to be the king of the White Walkers doing a fancy jig on the Iron Throne. (Ironically, he wouldn't even be the third or fourth worst person to touch it).

On 5/1/2016 at 6:43 PM, Oscirus said:

I think poor Martin is suffering from the show's success. He's probably finished the book ten times over but he's desperately trying to reach unrealistic goals by making sure the book is perfect.

I think he's dawdled and dandled and hemmed and hawed and probably gotten sidetracked into a whole stupid subplot about an errant Wildling girl named Doofus, who is somehow and suddenly Very Important to the plot and for whom he needed to invent, like, 500 pages, to explain her existence, even though she will of course be killed sometim halfway through next season.

I prefer D&D and honestly just hope they wrap this whole thing up in a way that gives some characters happy endings even if GRRM denies them later on (given his track record, they will ALL be later on). 

Edited May 7, 2016 by paramitch

[Umbelina]

I'd give your post 100 likes if I could paramitch, and I agree with every word.  I could quote great parts of it, but I'll leave it at these.

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In short, I've never ever thought GRRM was a resource or strong point of the show. I just don't think he's a very good writer. He's probably a good storyteller, but that's not quite the same thing.

Yes Yes Yes!  At times, his writing will take my breath away, but those are are always the smaller stories in the books.

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(2) My main problem is that those "peripheral" storylines should never have been peripheral in the first place. Classic example of GRRM's shortcomings as a novelist. I feel like he falls in love with tangents and just goes there, so there we are, 100 pages later, and ... none of it actually matters.

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(3) This is something the show has honestly excelled at for me until last season. GRRM is in love with taking 50-100 pages to explore people who simply will have no bearing on the outcome, but the show has managed to do so selectively and with great emotion.(Example: Even if I hate Ollie, I totally understand who he is and where he's coming from.)

Exactly.  I've lost faith and patience with him over exactly this.  I DON'T CARE about all of these tangents, and my favorite part of the TV show is that they are letting us know which ones might have a damn thing to do with anything relevant to the tale he set out to tell.  Because, ANY author can and does create backstories and side stories in their mind to enrich what goes on the page, that doesn't mean it belongs in the book(s.)  Maybe in a prequel or sequel or "meanwhile, over with the pirates" series, but not in the tale you are supposed to be telling.

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At least I'm not conflicted on GRRM however -- I don't care if he ever finishes. I don't personally think he will, and I think he's a perfect example of  a writer whose success has undercut his artistic abilities (I would add Stephen King to this to an enormous degree -- basically, the moment a writer is so famous that editors are superfluous, we're all in trouble, and the predictable dive in quality will arrive shortly after).

Yes!  Also, frankly, the tremendous fandom played into that as well, whole websites, fan art, I mean I'm not blaming the fans or even GRRM for letting it all go to his head, but damn.  If anyone ever needed a good editor, it's GRRM. 

"Yes, George, it's a lovely tale, but does it have to be in THIS book, what does it add, especially when she/he dies having absolutely no impact on the story whatsoever, after 400 pages about her lineage?  Save it for the next book, which I'm sure will be amazing.  Moving on now, here on page 2912 you are introducing another new area and district, small tropical islands with pygmies who have sex with their own children and have volcano Gods?  So far you've written 421 pages about their ancient history and thrown 17 babies into the volcanos.  Why?"

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The books I feel are worthy of respect, but I have never liked the writing or POVs, and I often feel like GRRM is a better worldbuilder than a writer.

The POV crap drives me insane, it probably wouldn't if he didn't dilly dally so long that by the time I get back to a POV I've completely forgotten what the hell is going on there, and he always leaves off as if he's writing cliffhangers for commercial breaks in TV shows, just when a POV chapter gets interesting, it's over.  I've taken to reading them in groups, which is a pain in the ass since the books don't list chapters/page numbers. 

Now POV writing can be done beautifully in better hands with a disciplined writer.  The best example of that, to me anyway, is the book The Poisonwood Bible by Barbara Kingsolver  which was beyond lovely and worked so well being told by distinctive POV's.  Of course hers were linear or different views of the same events which continually added more insight and depth. 

GRRM does have his moments of beautiful writing though, but they are fleeting.  I was just asked (again) "Should I read the books?"  That's a very hard question for me to answer honestly.  I usually end up with some long disclaimer and warning and the advice of perhaps waiting until and if he finishes, but more of an "up to you."  Other books?  I rave about, send, encourage people to read.  His?  Not so much.

[Eyes High]

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I think this is a great idea, but it doesn't work for me. For instance:

(1) Why are we still dealing with Dorne, then,and in a worse storyline even than in the books? What the hell happened to Ellaria? And why are ALL the Sand Snakes acting like my darling Oberyn was murdered versus dying in a public and fair fight? Bleah.

I think that the reason the Dorne storyline is going the way it is is that Book Dorne will get dragged into the war with the Lannisters/Tyrells on Book Aegon's side against Dany by dint of Quentyn's death and Arianne's ambition. Since there is no TV Quentyn or TV Arianne, either TV Doran has to decide to wage war for some other reason, or TV Doran has to go in favour of more hot-tempered Martells. I realize this is reasoning backwards, but that's my best guess.

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(2) My main problem is that those "peripheral" storylines should never have been peripheral in the first place. Classic example of GRRM's shortcomings as a novelist. I feel like he falls in love with tangents and just goes there, so there we are, 100 pages later, and ... none of it actually matters.

No argument here. It's hard for me to care about anyone except the core Starks, Tyrion, and Dany, because when it comes down to it, they're all glorified redshirts who could go at any time (and likely will, sooner or later).

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(4) After Shireen, to be honest, I don't look at any of those as wins. I just assume they're losses delayed. Martin's world isn't one of tough choices, it's an utterly nihilistic one in which absolutely no one can win (unless it's stupid tiresome beautiful dream girl Dany).

I didn't get the sense from the 1993 outline of some sort of purely nihilistic tale in love with its own grim and grit, but I am getting pretty worn down by ASOIAF's misery parade. Book Jeyne's wedding night was almost enough to make me swear off the books altogether.

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And then DAVOS barely reacted to the situation and has (further) this season reacted with sympathy to the freaking Red Woman, like, "do you need tea?" and I'm like, "What, to go with your freaking murderous coldhearted fanatical soul? Davos, let her freeze."

For what it's worth, my sense is that TV Davos only knows that Shireen died, not that Melisandre sacrificed her. It seems unrealistic that Davos would be satisfied with a bleak stare from Melisandre by way of answer when he asked about Shireen, but I'm guessing it was for plot purposes, since if Davos had learned about Shireen he would be too busy wringing Melisandre's neck to bother himself with resurrecting Jon.

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I agree, I just question how much any of these things mean. If we never see Sansa's realization that Arya was protected by The Hound, that's a cheat to me. It bothers me. There is no reason for Brienne not to be honest about the confrontation, dammit. None.

Just as with Davos and Shireen's death, if there is a reason for Brienne not mentioning the "man's" identity, I suspect that reason is "plot." It seemed like such a curious description of events, especially since Brienne knows darn well that the man was the Hound, that there has to be a reason why it was left out at that particular moment. It could be that there's some larger reason why this big revelation about the Hound accompanying and protecting Arya is being kept from Sansa. If SanSan is going to be a thing in the show--and I know there are a lot of skeptics on that, but let's assume--and Sansa has a lot on her plate to deal with at the moment (Winterfell, Jon, Ramsay, etc.), it would make sense for that revelation to be saved for a moment when Sansa can fully process and appreciate it. Or so I'm guessing. Another possibility is that the writers are trying to shut down SanSan in the show and therefore keep Sansa away from that storyline...which I doubt, personally, but I can't exclude as a possibility.

[OhOkayWhat]

7 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Just as with Davos and Shireen's death, if there is a reason for Brienne not mentioning the "man's" identity, I suspect that reason is "plot." It seemed like such a curious description of events, especially since Brienne knows darn well that the man was the Hound, that there has to be a reason why it was left out at that particular moment. It could be that there's some larger reason why this big revelation about the Hound accompanying and protecting Arya is being kept from Sansa. If SanSan is going to be a thing in the show--and I know there are a lot of skeptics on that, but let's assume--and Sansa has a lot on her plate to deal with at the moment (Winterfell, Jon, Ramsay, etc.), it would make sense for that revelation to be saved for a moment when Sansa can fully process and appreciate it. Or so I'm guessing. Another possibility is that the writers are trying to shut down SanSan in the show and therefore keep Sansa away from that storyline...which I doubt, personally, but I can't exclude as a possibility.

Within the story, I think the reason for Brienne not mentioning the Hounds name is to protect Sansa. We are talking about a very traumatized girl here. Maybe, in Brienne mind, telling her that her little sister is with one of the Clegane brothers (Brienne does not know the same things that the audience knows about them) constitutes a brutal psychological blow to Sansa mind.

And if we analyze the Hound of the show, I think it is part of the narrative decisions. Because even if Sansa is important within the Sandor story, in my opinion, the show gives much more importance to the relationship between Sandor and Arya.

Edited May 8, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[benteen]

I figured I would talk about the preview for next week's episode and speculate...

Littlefinger returns and we see him talking to an old Robin Arryn.  It made me wonder if Robin had finally become a competent fighter under the guidance of Lord Royce.  If so, I wonder if the show is giving him the Harry the Heir storyline. 

I would assume Lord Royce will be going up North with Littlefinger and Robin.  Which reminds me that on the show, it was Brienne who killed Royce's son Robar in self-defense in Season 2 after Renly was assassinated.  I wonder if the show remembers this.

[SeanC]

26 minutes ago, benteen said:

Littlefinger returns and we see him talking to an old Robin Arryn.  It made me wonder if Robin had finally become a competent fighter under the guidance of Lord Royce.  If so, I wonder if the show is giving him the Harry the Heir storyline. 

The show has basically ignored Robin as a character, and with the way the plot has developed that whole Sansa-marries-Harry thing from the books isn't necessary, as Baelish has control over the Vale's forces anyway.

[Unknown poster]

2 hours ago, benteen said:

I figured I would talk about the preview for next week's episode and speculate...

Littlefinger returns and we see him talking to an old Robin Arryn.  It made me wonder if Robin had finally become a competent fighter under the guidance of Lord Royce.  If so, I wonder if the show is giving him the Harry the Heir storyline. 

I would assume Lord Royce will be going up North with Littlefinger and Robin.  Which reminds me that on the show, it was Brienne who killed Royce's son Robar in self-defense in Season 2 after Renly was assassinated.  I wonder if the show remembers this.

Doubtful. After all, did they even name Robar on the show? I seem to recall the guards Brienne killed looking like your standard Baratheon soldiers.

[Umbelina]

There was a really good post in this weeks episode thread, about how very bleak and joyless the show has been for a long time.  I feel the same way of course, but felt while reading the books as well.  Frankly, to me, by a very slim photo-finish, the books are even bleaker than the show. 

For example, yes, Tyrion is boring in Meereen, but at least he's not still endlessly wandering and wondering where whores go.

For another, at least the show is moving things along, and frankly, the books seem to just spin in sewers endless with no end in sight. 

My other question is, just how much do you think the TV show will diverge from the books (as GRRM intended before they passed him up?)  Obviously I'm not talking about combining show characters/plots in a logical way, trimming some of the masses of fat.  More, I'm talking about, for example, Sansa's story.  In the books was she going to end up with Ramsay after all?  Or, do you think the writers have any real clue about where Arya's story was heading?  Was that something GRRM shared with them, for example, because she is an end game character?

I got the feeling from that latest extra or insider video where D & D were interviewed and saying Hodor came from George that getting information from GRRM NOW was like pulling teeth, just the way they said it.  It gave me the impression he is absolutely no longer forthcoming about characters and arcs or stories, which frankly, fits right in with my opinion of him. 

So, I guess, 3 questions there.  I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

My other question is, just how much do you think the TV show will diverge from the books (as GRRM intended before they passed him up?)  Obviously I'm not talking about combining show characters/plots in a logical way, trimming some of the masses of fat.  More, I'm talking about, for example, Sansa's story.  In the books was she going to end up with Ramsay after all?  Or, do you think the writers have any real clue about where Arya's story was heading?  Was that something GRRM shared with them, for example, because she is an end game character?

I got the feeling from that latest extra or insider video where D & D were interviewed and saying Hodor came from George that getting information from GRRM NOW was like pulling teeth, just the way they said it.  It gave me the impression he is absolutely no longer forthcoming about characters and arcs or stories, which frankly, fits right in with my opinion of him. 

So, I guess, 3 questions there.  I'd love to hear your thoughts.

1. Divergences: I think the act of cutting Aegon has caused and will cause the TV show to diverge significantly from the books. Throw in the omission of Arianne and Stannis dying a lot sooner than he died in the books, and you're already looking at a very different show.

2. Sansa's story: Sansa's storyline was merged with Jeyne's to tie Sansa into the Jon/Sansa vs. Ramsay Season 6 storyline. I don't think Book Sansa is going to end up with Ramsay. It seems possible that Book Sansa will also lose her virginity (although likely not through rape). If TV Sansa is pregnant, it seems possible that Book Sansa gets pregnant as well, albeit under what I imagine will be very different circumstances.

3. Arya and other endgames: My impression is that D&D basically forced GRRM to cough up the endgames in 2013 at the Santa Fe meeting, and he gave them that and not much more. (D&D have referred to them as "distant, vague landmarks.") Recently, D&D have gone to great pains to talk about the show/book divergences, so they seem to be backtracking on their earlier statements that they got GRRM to divulge an outline of where all this was going, but that could be out of deference to GRRM, since he hasn't published TWOW yet and they don't want to step too much on his toes by indicating what the spoilers are. It seems that when D&D have come out and stated something is a TWOW spoiler, they've done so to fend off anticipated fan backlash (Stannis burning Shireen, the "Hodor" twist). Apart from that, they're happy to let the viewer try to figure out whether or not some plot development is or is not a book spoiler. My impression is that a lot of the changes aren't so much "spoilers" as plots being reshuffled to more central characters (Jon and Sansa getting Stannis' plot, e.g.).

...With all that said, I think the endgames will be the same. The routes to those endgames will likely be substantially different, especially with Aegon and Arianne out of the picture, but the endgames themselves will be the same.

I saw an online discussion of this very thing recently on Reddit or elsewhere, and someone commented that Peter Dinklage asked for and was told the broad outlines of his character's entire arc before agreeing to play the character. Daniel Abraham, the guy who wrote the official comic adaptation of A Game of Thrones, also knows what Tyrion's endgame is.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Eyes High

[Umbelina]

29 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

1. Divergences: I think the act of cutting Aegon has caused and will cause the TV show to diverge significantly from the books. Throw in the omission of Arianne and Stannis dying a lot sooner than he died in the books, and you're already looking at a very different show.

2. Sansa's story: Sansa's storyline was merged with Jeyne's to tie Sansa into the Jon/Sansa vs. Ramsay Season 6 storyline. I don't think Book Sansa is going to end up with Ramsay. It seems possible that Book Sansa will also lose her virginity (although likely not through rape). If TV Sansa is pregnant, it seems possible that Book Sansa gets pregnant as well, albeit under what I imagine will be very different circumstances.

3. Arya and other endgames: My impression is that D&D basically forced GRRM to cough up the endgames in 2013 at the Santa Fe meeting, and he gave them that and not much more. (D&D have referred to them as "distant, vague landmarks.") Recently, D&D have gone to great pains to talk about the show/book divergences, so they seem to be backtracking on their earlier statements that they got GRRM to divulge an outline of where all this was going, but that could be out of deference to GRRM, since he hasn't published TWOW yet and they don't want to step too much on his toes by indicating what the spoilers are. It seems that when D&D have come out and stated something is a TWOW spoiler, they've done so to fend off anticipated fan backlash (Stannis burning Shireen, the "Hodor" twist). Apart from that, they're happy to let the viewer try to figure out whether or not some plot development is or is not a book spoiler. My impression is that a lot of the changes aren't so much "spoilers" as plots being reshuffled to more central characters (Jon and Sansa getting Stannis' plot, e.g.).

...With all that said, I think the endgames will be the same. The routes to those endgames will likely be substantially different, especially with Aegon and Arianne out of the picture, but the endgames themselves will be the same.

With Aegon I just figured they completely left him out because he was a red herring, fake, not relevant, killed off, something.

You may be right about Sansa, that whole thing just seems supremely weird to me though.  If Sansa doesn't get involved with a monster/raped/beaten because of Littlefinger, why do this?  To give the actress something to do?  Because they wanted the rape scene with a barely legal girl?  Because they are enamored of the disgusting Ramsay?  They could have arranged for Sansa to get there, continue her learning curve in so many other ways.  If this was all pulled out of their asses?  Shame on them.

I agree with you about GRRM and D&D, but I'm sure I read very early on that HBO didn't buy this until they were assured of an ending, and the GRRM had coughed that up so he could cash the check.  As far as 2013 meeting, and the rest of that paragraph, that's sounds correct.

I agree that the endgames will be the same as GRRM intended back then, but I don't trust him to not petulantly change them, or trust him enough creatively to think he wouldn't change it all around after adding mermaids and fairies and all of their tedious family histories.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Umbelina

[Chris24601]

Well, I don't quite share the feeling that the show is quite as bleak and hopeless as you do.

Just for the sake of example, let's compare it to that paragon of hope "Star Wars." You know, the film where over the course of a single film the hero loses the aunt and uncle who raised him as a son, the mentor he'd just gained, a best friend he'd just reunited with, everyone in the entire Rebel attack squadron except for Wedge and his faithful droid companion (admittedly the last one gets better).

Life is short and brutal if you're a supporting character in fantasy. Its the nature of the beast.

Let's not kid ourselves... as bleak as the deaths on Game of Thrones appear, they're nearly always supporting cast.

Doran and Trystane were in a handful of episodes last season. Roose, Walda and child were supporting characters. Shaggydog and Osha hadn't been seen in over two years. Thorne, Olly and the other mutineers were supporting cast. The Children and Three-Eyed Raven were in a handful of episodes this season and one episode way back in season four. Summer was barely seen and for all the tragedy of it, Hodor was as much a plot device as a character until we got his origin story and death all in one five-minute gut punch.

Which major characters from season one are still alive? Jon, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Tyrion, Varys, Littlefinger, Dany, Jorah, Cersei, Jaime, Sam, and Theon.
Which major characters from season one have been killed? King Robert (season one), Ned (season one), Khal Drogo (season one), Robb (season three), Cat (season three) and Joffrey (season four).

We could expand or contract the criteria for "major" characters or the time frame for what counts (ex. Brienne, Davos, Melisandre and Stannis were major characters who came on the scene in season two and Tywin's role expanded during seasons 2-4), but the basic premises stands... most of the deaths on this show actually fall into the "Uncle Owen, Aunt Beru, Obi-Wan or Biggs" level at best while only one or two on average in a given year are actually major characters.

Viewed through this lens, I don't see things as hopeless for the main sympathetic protagonists. I'm reasonably certain at this point that Jon and Sansa and many of those loyal to them will survive the series for example. I'm pretty certain that the invasions by the Others and Dany will both be thwarted (probably by each other) and life will go on for the survivors.

As to the questions posed...

1) Just how much do you think the TV show will diverge from the books? I think characters will get the same general endings even if the route is a little different. I think a lot of those different routes are not just because of excising material for space, but because some things take longer in one medium than another (ex. battles that could take multiple chapters to tell could be over in half an hour on screen, while romances that could be depicted via internal monologues in a couple of chapters need an entire season or more for there to be appropriate payoff for general audiences).

I think the omission of fAegon and a lot of the Dorne plotlines fall into the former category. Either they're complete red herrings like Quentyn or their roles will end up being subsumed into other characters in the show (ex. Yara/Asha and Theon taking over Victarion's plotline) so that the major characters still end up in mostly the same places they need to.

I think most of Sansa's deviation is more the latter example though. I think the books will have Jon and Sansa reunite (likely towards the end of WoW) and circumstances will dictate a political match between them that they'll enter out of duty, but grow into (much like Ned and Cat did). That's something you could set up in just a couple of chapters in the books (out of scores of chapters in the final books). By contrast, I think D&D are looking to provide a more traditional romance to appeal to general audiences and that takes a lot more shared screen time to set up.

So after a Type One deviation (with Sansa standing in for Jeyne Poole) Sansa is now in the same storyline as Jon and probably will remain so for the rest of the series (which is all of about 18-20 episodes at this point) whereas if she had to sit out last season in the Vale and not come north until the end of this season she'd only have a dozen or fewer episodes to interact with Jon while also in the midst of other major story arcs. That way, when Bran gets back either very late this season or early next with news of Jon's paternity they'll already have the groundwork laid via their cooperation this season to pull off a romance during the final dozen or so episodes of the series without it completely taking over the story.

2) In the books was she going to end up with Ramsay after all? No, but she'll have something similarly traumatic that will get her to cut her ties to Littlefinger and reassert herself as a Stark (and probably support Jon as Robb's legit heir, per Robb's will). In terms of trauma though, what she went through in King's Landing on the show was quite toned down compared to the books where she was stripped and beaten on multiple occasions (though not raped). I think overall she'll have about the same level of trauma as show Sansa, but the perpetrators will have been different.

3) Or, do you think the writers have any real clue about where Arya's story was heading? I'll be honest and say I'm not certain even GRRM knows where Arya's story is heading. I know where he originally intended it to go, but the failure of the 5-year time jump killed it and Arya's been in something of a limbo ever since (which even the casual viewers can sense) while he figures out what her story should be now. My guess is D&D break the knot via the simplest and quickest manner possible and send her towards something resembling where GRRM said he saw her direction going now. But at the same time, because of the changes brought on by axing the 5-year gap, I think a lot of Arya fans will probably end up quite disappointed by what Arya's actual endgame is compared to what they've convinced themselves its going to be.

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I agree that the endgames will be the same as GRRM intended back then, but I don't trust him to not petulantly change them, or trust him enough creatively to think he wouldn't change it all around after adding mermaids and fairies and all of their tedious family histories.

This is what I suspect is far more likely to occur than D&D making significant changes to what GRRM told them the ending was. The guy legitimately wanted them to halt production of the series, likely for years, while he finished writing the books... completely ignoring how television is actually made (actors need to pay bills during the shutdown and that means taking projects that might conflict down the line).

I could see him being so annoyed by the show spoiling his ending (which is his own fault... the guy had seven years to write two books) that he either never finishes the books (67%) or completely changes the ending even if it doesn't entirely make sense (33%). If that happened I think I'd actually consider the show's ending more canon than the eventual novels in that respect simply because the show would represent the ending planned before real-world office politics and egos got involved.

[armadillo1224]

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I think most of Sansa's deviation is more the latter example though. I think the books will have Jon and Sansa reunite (likely towards the end of WoW) and circumstances will dictate a political match between them that they'll enter out of duty, but grow into (much like Ned and Cat did). That's something you could set up in just a couple of chapters in the books (out of scores of chapters in the final books). By contrast, I think D&D are looking to provide a more traditional romance to appeal to general audiences and that takes a lot more shared screen time to set up.

Do you really think general TV audiences could ever root for a Jon/Sansa romance? They are characters who were raised from birth to believe they were brother and sister and that is how their dynamic certainly reads in the show right now. I don't know you could possibly sell it as a traditional romance to root for. All the incest on this show so far has been portrayed as disordered, unnatural and vaguely villainous. I have so much trouble seeing it as the romantic endgame for such a traditional good guy protagonist as Jon.

I guess I"m just surprised by how confident some people in this thread seem to be that Jon/Sansa is the endgame. Is it nothing more than speculation based on the original GRRM outline from twenty years ago or is there some other basis?

Edited May 25, 2016 by armadillo1224

[ElizaD]

49 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

3) Or, do you think the writers have any real clue about where Arya's story was heading? I'll be honest and say I'm not certain even GRRM knows where Arya's story is heading. I know where he originally intended it to go, but the failure of the 5-year time jump killed it and Arya's been in something of a limbo ever since (which even the casual viewers can sense) while he figures out what her story should be now. My guess is D&D break the knot via the simplest and quickest manner possible and send her towards something resembling where GRRM said he saw her direction going now. But at the same time, because of the changes brought on by axing the 5-year gap, I think a lot of Arya fans will probably end up quite disappointed by what Arya's actual endgame is compared to what they've convinced themselves its going to be.

IMO, Arya feels different from Sansa. I can't be sure that Sansa will survive and stop being the puppet Littlefinger uses to screw over the Starks, but if she does, I can easily see a future for her as Lady of Riverrun or advisor in Winterfell/the Eyrie (although it seems Rickon won't end up being the kid she takes care of, so that theory is finished). Arya, on the other hand, seems to have an easier plot to predict: I think she'll have something to do with Frey revenge and Nymeria's pack in the Riverlands. But what will she do after that, if she's alive in the final chapter? She's been such a loner and a free spirit, disintered in courtesies and the everyday expectations of her society even during the happy days, that it feels odd to think of her settling down as the lady of a castle, even one who rules in her own right rather than for her husband.

[FemmyV]

24 minutes ago, armadillo1224 said:

Do you really think general TV audiences could ever root for a Jon/Sansa romance? They are characters who were raised from birth to believe they were brother and sister and that is how their dynamic certainly reads in the show right now. I don't know you could possibly sell it as a traditional romance to root for. All the incest on this show so far has been portrayed as disordered, unnatural and vaguely villainous. I have so much trouble seeing it as the romantic endgame for such a traditional good guy protagonist as Jon.

I guess I"m just surprised by how confident some people in this thread seem to be that Jon/Sansa is the endgame. Is it nothing more than speculation based on the original GRRM outline from twenty years ago or is there some other basis?

I think those who believe Jon / Sansa will be endgame are fooling themselves. For one (minor) thing, it was Arya, not Sansa, in the GRRM outline. For a major thing, well, two major things:

1. Sansa doesn't give Jon anything (politically) that he can't get without her, in the long run.

Spoiler

Assuming R+L=J, as Lyanna's son and Ned's nephew

(who was raised as Ned's son), and as the guy leading the fight against the WW, he'll have the respect of the North.

Spoiler

As Rheagar's son

he gains creds as a legitimate claim to the Iron Throne and, through his friendship with Tyrion, he can ally (possibly) with Dany. If anything, Dany makes the most sense of all, if he's going to have a political marriage. Dany, or someone who comes from a powerful family in parts of Westeros where he needs diplomacy.

2. If he does not get a political marriage, and winds up with one of his cousins, it makes far more sense that it be Arya. Their closeness has been set up since the very beginning of the book. It's either going to end well for them, or in heartbreaking tragedy. I'll leave some room for the possibility TV and the book diverge, yet again, but it's like the GRRM quote I used elsewhere: you don’t hang a giant wolf pack on the wall unless you intend to use it.

Edited May 25, 2016 by FemmyV

[Umbelina]

I do think this story is darker and more grim, although I admit I don't read much fantasy.  I read Tolkien and loved it as a teenager but I'm really not interested in reading it as an adult.  I own, and have tried to watch the DVD's and honestly, I fall asleep every time, though I keep intending to try them again, since so many love them.

Anyway, about GoT, we get a few seconds of joy when Sansa and Jon reunite, but that is tiny in the whole scope of things.  Horror is reveled in, as his sexual sadism, all manner of cruelty, and also incredible bleakness with the peasants hopeless to survive winter, even if they do survive the zombies.

Is all fantasy this unrelentingly dark? 

Also, which do you think is the darker, grimmer, uglier tale, the book, or the show?

Edited May 25, 2016 by Umbelina

[Chris24601]

8 hours ago, armadillo1224 said:

Do you really think general TV audiences could ever root for a Jon/Sansa romance? They are characters who were raised from birth to believe they were brother and sister and that is how their dynamic certainly reads in the show right now. I don't know you could possibly sell it as a traditional romance to root for. All the incest on this show so far has been portrayed as disordered, unnatural and vaguely villainous. I have so much trouble seeing it as the romantic endgame for such a traditional good guy protagonist as Jon.

I guess I"m just surprised by how confident some people in this thread seem to be that Jon/Sansa is the endgame. Is it nothing more than speculation based on the original GRRM outline from twenty years ago or is there some other basis?

Yes, because that's been the reaction from people I know who don't read the books or follow spoilers have had to the Jon/Sansa interactions. Someone completely new (hasn't even watched the rest of the series) who just happened to be over and watched that episode immediately asked if Jon and Sansa were lovers after the reunion scene.

You say 'raised from birth,' but the causal viewer hasn't seen that. The casual viewer saw Jon and Sansa meet for the very first time in just the last episode ("show" is way more powerful than "tell" in this medium). That same episode also made a point of them NOT being all that close as children ("I was awful to you."/"I spent most my time brooding in the corner instead of playing with you."). Finally, the simple fact of the matter is that Jon and Sansa do NOT look like siblings, especially when we're shown Cersei/Jamie, Yara/Theon and Margery/Loras in the same episode to compare them with.

Basically, the showrunners (who, unlike all the fans, actually KNOW the ending) have done everything possible to minimize what some in the audience might find squicky. And I do say SOME, because outside of certain parts of the United States (and only in the last hundred years at that) marrying your first cousin isn't actually incest. Queen Victoria, Charles Darwin, Edgar Allen Poe, H.G. Wells and Albert Einstein were all married to their first cousins.

It's also a poor argument when some of the same people who don't like Jon/Sansa are also huge supporters of Jon/Arya (who do look like siblings and have had sibling-like interactions) or of Jon/Dany (who is his biological aunt... which IS incest). Of the three most common pairings, Jon/Sansa is actually the least incestuous (are cousins, don't look alike and had some distance as children).

And its not really speculation from the original outline. Its more speculation based on certain bits of the published text coupled with theories on how the original outline got morphed in the process of writing. To start with the original outline DID have Jon's endgame as a relationship with a cousin he thought was his sister and even had a love triangle with Tyrion as a complication. But in the outline that cousin was Arya; who fled North from King's Landing after Ned's murder and started interacting with Jon in the North as they fought to reclaim their family home.

But the problem was that the outline relied upon a five-year time jump to take Arya from a kid to a teenager and GRRM discovered (and complained) that unlike his original plans, the various pieces in motion weren't going to wait while the dragons and children grew up. That's about the point Arya went from trying to get North to Jon to headed over to Braavos on the most boring side-quest ever and we started getting some textual elements that could be interpreted as groundwork for Jon/Sansa.

It's also worth noting that the outline also included things that panned out completely differently than the books; Dany was supposed to invade almost immediately after Drogo's death, Cat was still alive and with Arya North of the Wall with Jon, Sansa marries Joffrey and has his baby but Joffrey and the baby were murdered by Jaime who took the Iron Throne for himself. As such, I really don't think its useful for anything more than understanding GRRM's starting point in the writing process. Some elements, particularly names, were retained, but other things were either dropped or re-adapted (ex. outline Jaime got split into book Jaime and Cersei and a lot of outline Sansa's elements could probably be mapped onto book Margery pretty easily). Of particular interest in that regard to adaptation from the outline are that, if the show is any indication, Sansa will be headed North to interact with Jon and while on the show we've got Sansa's marriage to Ramsey as a complication... in the books it is Sansa's marriage to Tyrion that is a holdup on her ability to re-marry (throw in Jon in the North and it sorta looks like Jon, Tyrion and a Stark daughter in a love triangle like the outline had).

* * *

The main reason though is simply the logistics of storytelling. Even the leads average barely ten minutes of screen time per episode and it takes time to deliver a romance that is satisfying to general audiences. By the time this season is done we're looking at barely over a dozen episodes left in the entire series... that's barely two hours of screen time for Jon to form a satisfying romantic relationship while also leading the people against the Walkers and probably Dany's forces as well IF the romantic interest shows up in episode 7.01. But if you start laying the groundwork for it starting in say episodes 6.04 through 6.10 you've just added as much as an hour of additional screen time to squeeze the romance into the story.

In other words... Jon/Sansa makes more sense than Jon/Arya or Jon/Dany because there's actually time to tell that story while the other two would be rushed affairs at best or would take over the entire story at a point when we're gearing up for the final epic battle at worst.

Dany won't even make it to Westeros until the start of season seven and that will be down in the King's Landing area and it will be several episodes of cleaning up the mess before Dany can make her way North so late season seven and maybe half-a-dozen episodes left in the series. Best case scenario for Arya is that she makes it back to the Riverlands this season and murders some Freys. IF she immediately turns North then she might make it to Winterfell early in season seven with about ten already jam-packed episodes left. If she has other business to attend to first (like hunting down and murdering Cersei) then she could be as delayed as Dany in getting up to where Jon and Sansa are now.

That's the kicker... where Jon AND Sansa are now. They haven't split up on separate missions after their reunion. They're going on the mission together in their new Stark-focused duds that make them look like a young Ned and Cat. They're getting a few complications that will take trusting each other more to overcome just as you'd expect in a traditional romance arc so that, once Bran shows up with his knowledge of Jon's parentage its not going to take much in the final dozen episodes to resolve a romance satisfactorily for general audiences.

D&D know how this all ends and what it takes to sell certain endings to the audience so they go away satisfied. They put Sansa up north with Jon well ahead of her book counterpart for a reason.

If Jon was going to be ending up with Arya or Dany, they wouldn't still be languishing in stalled plotlines on another continent. They could have blown through Arya's story so far and more this season in two-episodes just by cutting out the repetitive filler with the Waif's stick fighting, lingering on more of the play's contents than was needed and the warty genitalia. Test her loyalty so she can get her eyesight back (episode one), then give her the assignment that will cause her to reclaim her identity/Needle and hop on a boat to Westeros (episode two). Ayra could probably have made it to Jon at Castle Black by episode four or five of this year if they'd really wanted to push a Jon/Arya relationship.

They didn't. As of episode five she's still not on her way out the door of the House of Black and White and back to Westeros. If she leaves Braavos before episode seven I'll be shocked. I'll wager right now that they're more likely to give her a reunion with the Hound this season than with any of her actual family.

Why? Because Jon/Arya as a romantic couple is not important to the story's endgame or D&D would be doing something to give it more space in the self-imposed time-frame they have left to tell their story.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Chris24601

[Eyes High]

10 hours ago, Umbelina said:

You may be right about Sansa, that whole thing just seems supremely weird to me though.  If Sansa doesn't get involved with a monster/raped/beaten because of Littlefinger, why do this? 

I think the Sansa/Jeyne swap ties Sansa in to the northern storyline and gives more emotional weight and urgency to her determination to oust Ramsay. I'm also guessing that was why Stannis was dispatched so unceremoniously: to clear the way for Jon and Sansa to go up against Ramsay (whereas in the books I'm guessing Stannis will take Ramsay out). Sansa acts as the focal point for all these otherwise unrelated characters in the books converging in the show: Littlefinger (obsessed with Sansa), Brienne (swore a vow to keep Sansa safe), Jon (Sansa's half-brother), etc.

10 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

2) In the books was she going to end up with Ramsay after all? No, but she'll have something similarly traumatic that will get her to cut her ties to Littlefinger and reassert herself as a Stark (and probably support Jon as Robb's legit heir, per Robb's will). (...)

3) Or, do you think the writers have any real clue about where Arya's story was heading? I'll be honest and say I'm not certain even GRRM knows where Arya's story is heading. I know where he originally intended it to go, but the failure of the 5-year time jump killed it

Sansa being raped in the books: GRRM has said no POV rape victims, although he's broken that rule before (with Dany in AGOT). Also, if Sansa's going to be raped over an extended period in the books, who is it who will be doing the raping? Harry the Heir has a reputation for being a cad, not a psychopath. 

Arya: GRRM has implied that he's going to stick with the storylines he'd planned out regardless of scrapping the five-year gap. "If that means a 12-year-old has to save the world, then so be it." 

9 hours ago, FemmyV said:

I think those who believe Jon / Sansa will be endgame are fooling themselves. For one (minor) thing, it was Arya, not Sansa, in the GRRM outline. (...)

2. If he does not get a political marriage, and winds up with one of his cousins, it makes far more sense that it be Arya. 

Agreed.

8 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Also, which do you think is the darker, grimmer, uglier tale, the book, or the show?

Book, hands down. 

I think the grimness and darkness of the show is overrated. If you watch the Burlington bar reaction videos posted for Season 4 and Season 6 where a guy films the reaction of a crowd watching GOT in real time, there are moments of crying, sure, but there are also lots of laughs, whoops and cheers, even in the supposedly dark and grim Season 6: Brienne rescuing Sansa, Tormund suggestively gnawing on his meat, Jon coming back to life, Jon and Sansa reuniting, Tyrion with the dragons, Dany roasting the khals, etc. If this show is supposed to be one grim, humourless, endlessly bleak death march into darkness, those crowds certainly didn't get the memo.

I think D&D grasp that there's only so much awfulness they can thrust on the audience at any one time, which is why the darkness of the books is tempered on the show. I don't think Shireen's burning is a great example of show vs. book darkness, since D&D have confirmed that that happens in the books.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

10 hours ago, Umbelina said:

You may be right about Sansa, that whole thing just seems supremely weird to me though.  If Sansa doesn't get involved with a monster/raped/beaten because of Littlefinger, why do this?  To give the actress something to do?  Because they wanted the rape scene with a barely legal girl?  Because they are enamored of the disgusting Ramsay?  They could have arranged for Sansa to get there, continue her learning curve in so many other ways.  If this was all pulled out of their asses?  Shame on them.

They did it because they wanted to merge storylines (and in particular, skip over Sansa's Vale storyline), and I expect because they thought it would make the ADWD Winterfell plot more dramatic.

You're right that they could have put Sansa in Winterfell via any number of other ways, but from the way Cogman has spoken about it and the way the writers have tended to approach adaptation, I don't think that ever crossed their minds.  They approached it pretty much as swapping Sansa for Jeyne, and then the only debate they had was whether they would follow through on the full implications of that.

[Maximum Taco]

13 hours ago, Umbelina said:

There was a really good post in this weeks episode thread, about how very bleak and joyless the show has been for a long time.  I feel the same way of course, but felt while reading the books as well.  Frankly, to me, by a very slim photo-finish, the books are even bleaker than the show. 

For example, yes, Tyrion is boring in Meereen, but at least he's not still endlessly wandering and wondering where whores go.

For another, at least the show is moving things along, and frankly, the books seem to just spin in sewers endless with no end in sight. 

My other question is, just how much do you think the TV show will diverge from the books (as GRRM intended before they passed him up?)  Obviously I'm not talking about combining show characters/plots in a logical way, trimming some of the masses of fat.  More, I'm talking about, for example, Sansa's story.  In the books was she going to end up with Ramsay after all?  Or, do you think the writers have any real clue about where Arya's story was heading?  Was that something GRRM shared with them, for example, because she is an end game character?

I got the feeling from that latest extra or insider video where D & D were interviewed and saying Hodor came from George that getting information from GRRM NOW was like pulling teeth, just the way they said it.  It gave me the impression he is absolutely no longer forthcoming about characters and arcs or stories, which frankly, fits right in with my opinion of him. 

So, I guess, 3 questions there.  I'd love to hear your thoughts.

1) Divergences - In my opinion all our main characters, meaning the ones designated as "Major POVs" in the books who are not yet dead (Dany, Tyrion, Jon, Bran, Sansa, Arya, Theon, Davos, Jaime, Cersei, Sam, Brienne) are headed towards largely the same end, if some are getting there in different ways.

2) In regards specifically to Sansa's story I don't think she's going to have a ton of interaction with Ramsay in the books, this is just the show trying to compress some storyline, eliminate what are in the end superfluous characters (sorry Jeyne Poole, you are heart breaking, but ultimately pointless to the story's endgame), and add interaction between our main players. It's more shocking and horrible to see Ramsay abuse Sansa, then it is to see him abuse Jeyne. I think in the books Jon will descend on Winterfell with the wildlings, at the same time Harry the Heir and the Knights of the Vale will attack in Sansa's name. There whatever happens at the Battle of the Bastards will play out largely the same, and Jon and Sansa will reunite then after the battle.

3) In regards to Arya's story, I honestly don't know. I think at the beginning GRRM intended for Arya to have Sansa's current storyline, relationship with Tyrion, escape to the North, reunion with Jon, retaking of Winterfell. But then he decided to send her into a holding pattern over Braavos. It seems like he doesn't know what to do with her anymore. I'm sure George shared his endgame with D&D, but it might not make sense now cause so much of her story is smushed into Sansa's.

 

9 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I do think this story is darker and more grim, although I admit I don't read much fantasy.  I read Tolkien and loved it as a teenager but I'm really not interested in reading it as an adult.  I own, and have tried to watch the DVD's and honestly, I fall asleep every time, though I keep intending to try them again, since so many love them.

Anyway, about GoT, we get a few seconds of joy when Sansa and Jon reunite, but that is tiny in the whole scope of things.  Horror is reveled in, as his sexual sadism, all manner of cruelty, and also incredible bleakness with the peasants hopeless to survive winter, even if they do survive the zombies.

Is all fantasy this unrelentingly dark? 

Also, which do you think is the darker, grimmer, uglier tale, the book, or the show?

No, most fantasy is a lot more uplifting.

Game of Thrones is part of a relatively new breed of fantasy termed "Low Fantasy," this fantasy tries to exude a more gritty, real, dark approach. Examples include Joe Abercrombie's The First Law, or Scott Lynch's The Gentlemen Bastards Sequence. Magic is rare, and if used almost always comes with a horrible cost. Supernatural elements are typically downplayed. There are rarely sentient races other then humans, and if they exist they don't have a lot of interaction with humans, and may be near extinction. The characters are human, fallible and prone to death. Antagonists are painted with strokes of grey.

This is in contrast to "High Fantasy", like The Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, or The Chronicles of Narnia. Magic is obvious and present, if not utterly commonplace, and comes easy and without cost to several, if not all. It's set in a world where there are other sentient supernatural races (Elves, Dwarves, Goblins, Satyrs, Talking Animals etc.) that have frequent interaction with humans. The protagonists are epic, heroic, larger then life, and usually do the right thing (sometimes with a misstep or two). Side characters frequently die, but main characters rarely do. Antagonists (at least the Big Bad) are horribly, irredeemably evil, and the only option for our heroes is to destroy them utterly returning peace to the land.

In regards to Game of Thrones, the books are a much more grim tale then the show is.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[SeanC]

4 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

I think in the books Jon will descend on Winterfell with the wildlings, at the same time Harry the Heir and the Knights of the Vale will attack in Sansa's name. There whatever happens at the Battle of the Bastards will play out largely the same, and Jon and Sansa will reunite then after the battle.

While one never knows how far or fast a plot will advance once it gets going, I have a really hard time believing that Sansa's TWOW plot is going to accelerate that rapidly.  We've read Alayne I already, basically a setup chapter; there's kind of an implication that Alayne II is going to be the tourney, given all the talk about it and potentially ominous foreshadowing.  There's probably 4-5 more Alayne chapters, based on past precedent and the overall size of the book, and Littlefinger's plan is nowhere near the stage of actually launching an invasion.  While I'm sure things will happen to shake up the situation (e.g., Shadrich trying to kidnap Sansa), to go from where the story starts to Sansa getting married and then invading the North in such a span seems like a stretch to me.

[Advance35]

Quote

In other words... Jon/Sansa makes more sense than Jon/Arya or Jon/Dany because there's actually time to tell that story while the other two would be rushed affairs at best or would take over the entire story at a point when we're gearing up for the final epic battle at worst.

I never gave the Jon/Sansa theory much credence until some things were pointed out on this and other boards.  Sansa's time in Kings Landing and watching Janos Slynt get rewarded for Valor and hoping that he'd get his head cut off but there were no such things as heroes.  And then books later it's Jon who did the deed.  Little things like that made me go "whoa."   I do think the book was setting Jon and Sansa up as the first Stark Reunion.   Jon was making plans to appeal to Lyssa Arryn at the Vale for food supplies for the Watch.   And it honestly wouldn't surprise me if Jon/Sansa ended up closer then Jon/Arya.  I think people (and when written well) characters grow and change.  Sometimes people aren't as close with people when they've grown up and grown apart.  

I notice some Arya fans seem very possessive of the Jon character and I never quite understood why.  It was the closest relationship amidst her siblings when she was  young but that could change as both characters have since the beginning of the story.  It wouldn't mean they don't love each other, just that they've changed.

And it's really weird what people who don't follow the show perceive things.  I had a friend over during the last episode and she thought Jon and Sansa were love interest.   It was the cloak scene.   She thought it was "cute", though she said Jon likes Sansa more then vice versa.  I reserve the right to change my mind but at this point, if the story concludes that way, I wouldn't be surprised.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Advance35
structure

[Maximum Taco]

9 minutes ago, SeanC said:

While one never knows how far or fast a plot will advance once it gets going, I have a really hard time believing that Sansa's TWOW plot is going to accelerate that rapidly.  We've read Alayne I already, basically a setup chapter; there's kind of an implication that Alayne II is going to be the tourney, given all the talk about it and potentially ominous foreshadowing.  There's probably 4-5 more Alayne chapters, based on past precedent and the overall size of the book, and Littlefinger's plan is nowhere near the stage of actually launching an invasion.  While I'm sure things will happen to shake up the situation (e.g., Shadrich trying to kidnap Sansa), to go from where the story starts to Sansa getting married and then invading the North in such a span seems like a stretch to me.

I agree. The timelines don't match up.

But I think this is also another "knot" for George. I've mentioned before that he plans big events for his characters (Ned's death, Red Wedding, Battle for Meereen), and then tries to write them there. In Meereen he needed to have Quentyn, Tyrion, and Victarion arrive at roughly the same time that Daenerys left. Here I think he's trying to get Jon, Sansa (and Stannis?) to Winterfell at roughly the same time too. Could be wrong, but it just seems to be the way he tries to do things.

[SeanC]

2 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

But I think this is also another "knot" for George. I've mentioned before that he plans big events for his characters (Ned's death, Red Wedding, Battle for Meereen), and then tries to write them there. In Meereen he needed to have Quentyn, Tyrion, and Victarion arrive at roughly the same time that Daenerys left. Here I think he's trying to get Jon, Sansa (and Stannis?) to Winterfell at roughly the same time too. Could be wrong, but it just seems to be the way he tries to do things.

I don't think that's the case.  If it were, he could easily have advanced Sansa's story much more in AFFC, whereas in her small chapter allotment there the drama was almost entirely psychological and the actual narrative moved very little.

[Maximum Taco]

5 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I don't think that's the case.  If it were, he could easily have advanced Sansa's story much more in AFFC, whereas in her small chapter allotment there the drama was almost entirely psychological and the actual narrative moved very little.

He could have. He also could have had Tyrion head straight to Meereen. He seems really unwilling to take out stuff that he's written. Even when it doesn't fit usually he seems to just ram it in, cause he's proud of it.

Remember that the Alayne chapter he released as a tease was actually supposed to be in Dance, and he moved it to Winds to keep with his motif of Dance being almost all Essos. And if that Sansa chapter was supposed to be in Dance, I'm assuming a bunch more were also supposed to be. Who knows where Sansa is actually supposed to be when Jon "dies"? Is she married already then?

Edited May 25, 2016 by Maximum Taco