Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

Hecate7 · July 19, 2015

Tyrion was on trial for murdering Robin's dad. I'm sure Robin has presided/witnessed criminal trials. But no, they are not tossing random people out the Moon Door because they look at Robin funny, which is what you seem to think. I don't know how you could possibly read Sansa's chapters and get that impression; he's a brat and an annoyance, not a walk-on-eggshells-around-him killer.

She threatened Catelyn with the same fate, for no particular reason. Robin said in so many words that he and his mother throw people they don't like out the Moon Door. Not people who try to kill them, not scary bad guys, but "anybody we don't like."

Also,Show! Robin makes it very clear, both during Tyrion's trial, and during the conversation with Sansa, that throwing people through the Moon Door is his preferred form of entertainment. He is obsessed. From the wiki: This is just like when I speculated that Joffrey would be very cruel to Sansa and that she had to fear being beaten, abused, and possibly raped, and an avalanche of people responded that oh, no, nobody would ever DARE do that to the King's fiance. (This was before I read the books and knew for certain that she DID have all those things ahead of her, but having some knowledge of actual history and how women are REALLY treated in patriarchal societies, I knew I was right).

Robin doesn't react to his father's death, and isn't at all upset about it. He's upset about being deprived of a fun execution via the moon door, and he really wouldn't care whose execution it was. From the wiki:

" Bronn triumphs against Robin's champion, Ser Vardis Egen and he and Tyrion are allowed to go free. Robin is disappointed at being deprived of an execution by Moon Door.Later, he visits Sansa in the courtyard of the Eyrie while she is building a snow castle of Winterfell. When he suggests they add a Moon Door to it, he accidentally knocks over one of the towers that Sansa has built. At first, she gently scolds him, but as he grows petulant, insisting that he didn't ruin it, Sansa is driven to slap him across the face. He then runs back into the castle. Later on, his mother is killed by being pushed out of Robin's favorite plaything, the Moon Door, by Petyr Baelish."

I'll agree that Book!Robin seems slightly less obsessed with it. He's kind of busy dying of seizures or something, which we will probably eventually find out are due to some kind of poison Littlefinger was giving Lyssa all along that exacerbated her craziness, and that nursing so long gave Robin exposure to the same poison. He's definitely brain damaged or perhaps just cognitively impaired to start, which becomes very clear when you compare him to the other children his own age. But just because he's not brilliant, should not make us assume he's therefore nice and harmless. He lacks empathy altogether. There's not one speck of concern for other people in either book or show Robin, which means that when he's angry, he's not going to care about long-term consequences to others, or damage to them or to his relationship with them. He will only care about his feelings of the moment. And he will default to the Moon Door when he's furious because it's his favorite thing to do.

SeanC · July 19, 2015

She threatened Catelyn with the same fate, for no particular reason. Robin said in so many words that he and his mother throw people they don't like out the Moon Door. Not people who try to kill them, not scary bad guys, but "anybody we don't like."

Also,Show! Robin makes it very clear, both during Tyrion's trial, and during the conversation with Sansa, that throwing people through the Moon Door is his preferred form of entertainment. He is obsessed. From the wiki:

It wasn't "for no particular reason"; it was because she was angry at her for involving the Vale in a potential war by bringing Tyrion there. That's state politics. Also, threats are not the same thing as actions; characters make them all the time. As for Robin's statement, he's a child; "bad men" are people like Tyrion, accused of a crime. There is nothing to suggest that Robin throws anybody he doesn't like out the Moon Door. If he did, the way people treat him would be totally different, akin to how they treat Joffrey. Instead, he's portrayed as basically pathetic and, when we last saw him, a comic figure.

The wiki is fan-written. I'm not sure what point is being proved by citing it.

Hecate7 · July 19, 2015

There is nothing to suggest that Robin throws anybody he doesn't like out the Moon Door.

Except for his own lines in the show, which you're ignoring for some reason. "What do you do with all the bad people, and the scary people, and people you don't like?" He seems to think Winterfell is a complete waste without a Moon Door, which points to its overuse during his short lifetime. He says that when they are married, anybody Sansa doesn't like, "whoosh!" through the Moon Door. This does not point to anything like a temperate use of the thing hitherto.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsWC480B2FA

If he did, the way people treat him would be totally different, akin to how they treat Joffrey.

What, exactly, is different? Joffery was a comic figure, too. Remember Tyrion slapping him? The difference WAS that he had Lyssa instead of Cersei, and Mord instead of the Hound. Now the difference is that he has Baelish instead of Cersei, and Lord Royce instead of the Ser Meryn. He is both less intelligent and less attractive than Joffrey, but I think that's the main difference between the two. We shall see.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Hecate7

SeanC · July 19, 2015

Except for his own lines in the show, which you're ignoring for some reason.

What, exactly, is different? Joffery was a comic figure, too. Remember Tyrion slapping him? The difference WAS that he had Lyssa instead of Cersei, and Mord instead of the Hound. Now the difference is that he has Baelish instead of Cersei, and Lord Royce instead of the Ser Meryn. He is both less intelligent and less attractive than Joffrey, but I think that's the main difference between the two. We shall see.

I'm not ignoring them, I'm looking at them in context. "Bad men" are criminals, etc.

There was comedy relating to Joffrey, but characters were on edge with him in every scene that he's in, because he was dangerous. A Robin who was actually having people killed on a whim would be a totally different character than the one we're presented with. The other characters consider him a pathetic screwup, not a psychopath; Sansa, in particular, who spent years with Joffrey, would treat him totally differently if he was anything like Joffrey, and lords like Royce would be talking about him in terms rather different than making fun of his suckitude at armed combat. There's simply no basis for me to conclude the show has made such a drastic departure from the books on the basis of a few lines of dialogue that simply don't fit with anything we actually see on screen, and which doesn't serve any narrative purpose, seeing as none of the characters treat him any differently than in the novels.

Edited July 19, 2015 by SeanC

MarySNJ · July 20, 2015

I'm not ignoring them, I'm looking at them in context. "Bad men" are criminals, etc.

There was comedy relating to Joffrey, but characters were on edge with him in every scene that he's in, because he was dangerous. A Robin who was actually having people killed on a whim would be a totally different character than the one we're presented with. The other characters consider him a pathetic screwup, not a psychopath; Sansa, in particular, who spent years with Joffrey, would treat him totally differently if he was anything like Joffrey, and lords like Royce would be talking about him in terms rather different than making fun of his suckitude at armed combat. There's simply no basis for me to conclude the show has made such a drastic departure from the books on the basis of a few lines of dialogue that simply don't fit with anything we actually see on screen, and which doesn't serve any narrative purpose, seeing as none of the characters treat him any differently than in the novels.

My take on BookRobin is that he should to be judged as a spoiled, sickly 8 year old child, who doesn't understand the implications of what he says. His mother may have encouraged him to see "bad" = people accused of crimes/criminals" but at some point, if he's going to be Lord of the Erie and Warden of the East he'd need to be taught about the system of justice that exists in Westeros. Lysa is part of the problem in his skewed worldview, but there are others who could have taught him right from wrong if his father hadn't been murdered.

if he were ever to act upon his impulses that way, I think he would be outside the bounds of the minimal standard of justice that applies in Westeros. But because he is just a child, that wouldn't happen. His interactions with Sansa after his mother dies really shows what a fragile kid he is, and how easy it would be for someone to use him, or mold him into whatever they want him to be. I think he's a scared, fragile little boy who could still learn to be a decent Lord, if he had the right people advising him.

Joffrey was trained by both his "parents" but learned the wrong lesson from Robert; that a King can do what he wants. But Robert died, leaving Cersei in control and Joffrey didn't take her seriously, because he's a teenager who thinks he knows bette and old enough to exercise his own power. He pushed back against those who would curb his power, including Tywin. He was dangerous because he could exercize power and had a very distorted view of what his role as King should be.

Oscirus · July 20, 2015

My guesses on next season's death pool is something like this.

Ramsay

Walda

Roose

Walder

Female Lannister

Trystane

Ellaria

Jorah

Daario

Dickon (perhaps Sam's entire family save Randyll)

Loras

Margaery

Pycelle

Kevan

Missandei

I want to do one of these.

Definitely Kevan and Pycelle to match up with their book counterparts

Trystane and the Sand Snakes, they will likely have Robert Strong set on them.

Dario- Two warriors going off in search of the women that they love, one has the woman's heart while the other doesn't. Greek tragedy, Dario should start digging his grave now.

Brienne- probably dies protecting Sansa from Strong. It would also accelerate the disenegration of the Cersei-Jamie relationship.

Missanndei- first official victim of the Dragon Scale epidemic.

Tommen- Likely something initiated by Littlefinger.

Balon- Hurry up and die already.

Osha- Just because

Cersei as the season ending death. It feels like her story is coming to an end.

SeanC · July 20, 2015

My take on BookRobin is that he should to be judged as a spoiled, sickly 8 year old child, who doesn't understand the implications of what he says. His mother may have encouraged him to see "bad" = people accused of crimes/criminals" but at some point, if he's going to be Lord of the Erie and Warden of the East he'd need to be taught about the system of justice that exists in Westeros. Lysa is part of the problem in his skewed worldview, but there are others who could have taught him right from wrong if his father hadn't been murdered.

if he were ever to act upon his impulses that way, I think he would be outside the bounds of the minimal standard of justice that applies in Westeros. But because he is just a child, that wouldn't happen. His interactions with Sansa after his mother dies really shows what a fragile kid he is, and how easy it would be for someone to use him, or mold him into whatever they want him to be. I think he's a scared, fragile little boy who could still learn to be a decent Lord, if he had the right people advising him.

I think that's pretty much what GRRM is going for. Sansa finds dealing with him exhausting, but you can see signs of improvement in his behavior as a result of her replacing Lysa as his maternal influence (though, per the TWOW sample, he's started to view her as a different sort of relationship potential), even though he's also physically deteriorating at the same time.

Avaleigh · July 20, 2015

I remember getting the impression that Sansa feels forced in a way to play along with Sweetrobin in the books. At one point I know that she thinks to herself that she wishes that she could slap him a hundred times in the face but just has to pretend like she isn't fed up with him. Similarly, I think of the way she can't just tell him that she doesn't want him sharing her bed or trying to nurse from her breasts, she just tells somebody to make sure that his room is locked so that Robert will stay in his own room and so that he won't blame anyone in particular.

Then I think of incidents in AFFC like when he throws his chamber pot at his maester after not getting his way about something. Littlefinger seems like he's the only one who can keep this kid in check. I remember Sansa thinking that Littlefinger is the only person who makes Robert feel fear and that he's less likely to misbehave when Petyr is around.

ETA:

As to whether or not Sweetrobin could have been a good and decent lord if given the right guidance--I agree that there's still time to make him into a better person. That being said, I look at eight year old Tommen and I feel like he's the one who had potential as far as having the willingness to want to try, work hard, be friendly, give, make friends, fight for what's right, etc. Of all the young boys we've met in the series I feel that Tommen, Bran, Trystane, and Edric Storm seemed like they had the most potential to be good, strong, and capable leaders if they'd been protected and allowed to have the right sort of mentor.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Avaleigh

Hecate7 · July 20, 2015

I think we are meant to compare Robin to the other boys his age, who are so bright, capable, and eager to learn, and realize that something is not quite right about Robin.

Look at Bran at the beginning. Climbing buildings, struggling to excel at archery, working hard at his lessons with Maester Luwin, and raising Summer on his own. Bran learned how to use the special saddle, he took care of Rickon and he was capable at 7 in the books, 10 on the show, of ruling Winterfell with some help from Maester Luwin. Help which, incidentally, he had the good sense to listen to, unlike Theon, Joffrey, and other leaders we've been watching. If Robin were the equal of Bran, he'd have a hawk he raised from a fledgeling, he'd be almost as good at fighting as Arya, (having had the years Bran lost being paraplegic to practice), he'd be highly literate, and he'd be able to converse with Baelish as well as Sansa.

Look at Tommen. Book!Tommen isn't as clever as Bran, but then he is younger. He's aware that he needs to work on swordfighting and jousting, and he's able to take care of his kittens. He was smart enough to keep his head down and not get killed by Joffrey, and he was able moreover to hold onto Ser Pounce. So he's a pretty skillful person, actually.

Look Shireen Baratheon. She is his age, and she's a walking library with enough courage and empathy to teach Davos to read, and to try to help every single person she meets. She was originally his likeliest marriage prospect and frankly I'm not sure she didn't get the best end of THAT deal. You didn't see Shireen running around offering to have Mel burn "everybody we don't like." In spite of an incredibly warped upbringing, Shireen understood that burning people at the stake is godawful. SHE would have been the best ruler, of anyone shown so far, child or adult. So naturally she had to die. Westeros didn't deserve her.

Show!Robin is 13. Older than Shireen, or season one Bran or Tommen or Arya. Same age as Season Two Sansa. I am less optimistic than most people that there's anything that can be done about the poor kid, but it's possible I guess. I compare him to the commoners his age: Ollie, Hot Pie, Lommy Greenhands....they had skills already at his age. Gendry was already smithing at Robin's age. If he weren't so obviously dying in the book my money would be on Robin for King at the end, because he's just the kind of idiot Westeros does deserve.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Hecate7

Advance35 · July 20, 2015

There's no guarantee ANYONE is going to not be dangerous for Sansa. She went where her mentor led and rightly so, at this stage of her life. She had no idea what Baelish was really all about, either, and thought that she could probably control him because he seems infatuated with her. To be fair, so did most of the audience.

I like that the show has played up this aspect because it doesnt' come across that way in the books to me. Book!Sansa doesn't seem to recognize that Baelish's interest in her is carnal. And I agree with you that Sansa's arc or at least one of the pillars of it, is her learning to recognize freind and foe alike. I personally think Myranda Royce is going to fall in line with TV!Myranda, though not so much with a bow and arrow but more in a political sense. In the book Sansa seems to recognize Myranda's resentment of her because of Harry the Heir but she seems to think that the relationship can be salvaged. Though she also doesnn't confide in Myranda even though they have apparently been together for some time. Which is good.

As for Robin Arryn. Eh, It's still a flip of a coin really, I can see both sides of the arguement in that, there has definitely been some Joffrey like Redflags but there has been some (not many) reasons for optimism since Lyssa is no longer an influence. Cersei and Lyssa in Kings Landing at the same time. Eeek gads that must have been some royal court. But once John Arryn was killed I think Robin became destined to be a puppet, by Lyssa and LF and if it weren't those two, we've been shown it would have been other's in the Vale. Lady Anya Waynwood isn't beyond corruption, Neither is Lord Templeton, House Hunter......the father was murdered by the youngest son (nobody can prove it) and LF told Sansa that same son is currently scheming to murder his older brother, the current Lord Hunter. All of these people would be plotting to make Robin their puppet if LF weren't there to fill the void.

While not suitable for the screen, thinking about it all reminds me of how Juicy intrigue is in the Vale. It may not be Westeros Shaking like what goes on in Kings Landing but it was entertaining.

Definitely Kevan and Pycelle to match up with their book counterparts

Trystane and the Sand Snakes, they will likely have Robert Strong set on them.
Dario- Two warriors going off in search of the women that they love, one has the woman's heart while the other doesn't. Greek tragedy, Dario should start digging his grave now.
Brienne- probably dies protecting Sansa from Strong. It would also accelerate the disenegration of the Cersei-Jamie relationship.
Missanndei- first official victim of the Dragon Scale epidemic.
Tommen- Likely something initiated by Littlefinger.
Balon- Hurry up and die already.
Osha- Just because

Cersei as the season ending death. It feels like her story is coming to an end.

Agreed on a few. We know the destiny of Kevan and Pycell.

Trystane - I don't see him dieing next season. I don't know why since I think he WILL be in Kings Landing. I think Jaimie and Kevan are his protection since they won't let Cersei kill him, since the crown can't afford another war at the moment. For some reason I don't think he'll be TOO broken up about Mycella's death.

Sand Snakes - They are still in Dorne for now, so I don't think they'll die in Season 6.

Roose/Walda - I think the loss of Sansa and Reek is going to send Ramsay further over the edge than he already is. He became VERY possessive of Sansa since they were wed and I think when Roose tries to pull his focus elsewhere like the Others/LF's army, Ramsay is going to snap and in bloody fashion move up the latter of power temorarily (until early Season 7).

Jorah/Dario - I think next season will be the last for both of them.

Olenna/Margaery/Loras - I think we will lose one Tyrell next year. I have know idea which as all 3 are in great danger. Loras and Margaery are in the custody of The Faith Militant and even if they aren't that would place ALL 3 Tyrells in the Red Keep with Robert Strong. Bad things are going to happen.

Tommen - I could see Cersei being responsible for his death trying to take out Margaery. Maybe she sends Robert Strong after Margaery and Tommen dies protecting her. Margaery dies in the mess as well but Cersei can't enjoy it because of Tommen's demise.

Jaimie/Cersei - I could see both meeting their maker in Season 6. How/why depends on who's in Kings Landing at the time.

For some reason I think we are going to see LF sitting on the Iron Throne before all is said and done. NOT as a ruler but during one of those clandestine trips he takes to the Throne Room (in the show) I think he'll sit on the Throne, likely over someone or a few someones dead bodies (literally).

Edited July 20, 2015 by Advance35

benteen · July 20, 2015

I can't see Ramsay ever getting the upper hand on his father. Then again, the show's Super Ramsay I'm sure could outthink his father without having to do much...

Avaleigh · July 20, 2015

Lots of stuff I want to respond to from your post.

I like that the show has played up this aspect because it doesnt' come across that way in the books to me.   Book!Sansa doesn't seem to recognize that Baelish's interest in her is carnal.   And I agree with you that Sansa's arc or at least one of the pillars of it, is her learning to recognize freind and foe alike. I personally think Myranda Royce is going to fall in line with TV!Myranda, though not so much with a bow and arrow but more in a political sense.   In the book Sansa seems to recognize Myranda's resentment of her because of Harry the Heir but she seems to think that the relationship can be salvaged.   Though she also doesnn't confide in Myranda even though they have apparently been together for some time.   Which is good.

As for Robin Arryn. Eh, It's still a flip of a coin really, I can see both sides of the arguement in that, there has definitely been some Joffrey like Redflags but there has been some (not many) reasons for optimism since Lyssa is no longer an influence.    Cersei and Lyssa in Kings Landing at the same time. Eeek gads that must have been some royal court.   But once John Arryn was killed I think Robin became destined to be a puppet, by Lyssa and LF and if it weren't those two, we've been shown it would have been other's in the Vale.   Lady Anya Waynwood isn't beyond corruption, Neither is Lord Templeton, House Hunter......the father was murdered by the youngest son (nobody can prove it) and LF told Sansa that same son is currently scheming to murder his older brother, the current Lord Hunter.   All of these people would be plotting to make Robin their puppet if LF weren't there to fill the void.

While not suitable for the screen, thinking about it all reminds me of how Juicy intrigue is in the Vale. It may not be Westeros Shaking like what goes on in Kings Landing but it was entertaining.

Agreed on a few.   We know the destiny of Kevan and Pycell.

Trystane - I don't see him dieing next season. I don't know why since I think he WILL be in Kings Landing.   I think Jaimie and Kevan are his protection since they won't let Cersei kill him, since the crown can't afford another war at the moment.   For some reason I don't think he'll be TOO broken up about Mycella's death.

Sand Snakes - They are still in Dorne for now, so I don't think they'll die in Season 6.

Roose/Walda - I think the loss of Sansa and Reek is going to send him further over the edge than he already is. He became VERY possessive of Sansa since they were wed and I think when Roose tries to pull his focus elsewhere like the Others/LF's army, Ramsay is going to snap and in bloody fashion move up the latter of power temorarily (until early Season 7).

Jorah/Dario - I think next season will be the last for both of them.

Olenna/Margaery/Loras - I think we will lose one Tyrell next year.   I have know idea which as all 3 are in great danger. Loras and Margaery are in the custody of The Faith Militant and even if they aren't that would place ALL 3 Tyrells in the Red Keep with Robert Strong.   Bad things are going to happen.

Tommen - I could see Cersei being responsible for his death trying to take out Margaery. Maybe she sends Robert Strong after Margaery and Tommen dies protecting her.   Margaery dies in the mess as well but Cersei can't enjoy it because of Tommen's demise.

Jaimie/Cersei - I could see both meeting their maker in Season 6.   How/why depends on who's in Kings Landing at the time.

For some reason I think we are going to see LF sitting on the Iron Throne before all is said and done. NOT as a ruler but during one of those clandestine trips he takes to the Throne Room (in the show) I think he'll sit on the Throne, likely over someone or a few someones dead bodies (literally).

I think Sansa recognizes Littlefinger's sexual interest in her but I think book!Sansa has some fear of it that show Sansa doesn't seem to have. She simply accepts it as a matter of fact but book Sansa seems like she still feels awkward and shocked over his kisses.

I agree with you that Myranda might very well turn out to be dangerous. She's certainly jealous and a bit resentful of this bastard girl landing such a great catch. She's already commented on how Sansa is prettier than she is and she almost seems to resent Sansa's virginal status. I can totally see Myranda flipping the switch on Sansa and possibly seducing Harry out of spite or even saying something to Harry that would cause him to give Sansa the side eye

even more than he already has.

My thinking on this is that Lysa was mostly pretty cowed at court and that without Jon or anyone else around to really keep her in check that this time in the Eyrie was the first time she felt truly free to make her own decisions. If she weren't such a horrible person I'd have an easier time feeling sorry for her but she doesn't even have the benefit of being (unintentionally) funny the way that Cersei is. She's mostly just sad, disturbing, and frustrating, etc.

Cersei's impressions of Lysa are all negative and while I don't think Cersei is a POV to be trusted when it comes to various things I think it's pretty easy to imagine how the dynamic would have been between the two of them. With Cersei outranking Lysa in every way I can see Cersei being all smug while Lysa is all resentful but I can also see Lysa sort of almost subconsciously emulating Cersei once she gets back to the Eyrie. For over a decade Cersei has been the example she's seen of a female with some degree of power. This is also true of Selyse when she was living in King's Landing. (Actually, did Selyse ever live at court or was she forced to hang out on Dragonstone while Stannis was a memeber of the small council?)

Thank you for pointing out that there's plenty of potential for corruption in the Vale. I sometimes get the impression that people think the Vale is somehow more righteous than any other part of Westeros and I don't think there's any reason to think that they aren't going to get mired down in political shit and dishonorable behavior like any of the other kingdoms.

I feel like Trystane's death is going to play a large part in Jaime seeing Cersei for who she really is.

I feel like the fates of Loras and Margaery are tied together. If one dies then so will the other because of the nature of the charges. Margaery's fate is essentially tied into whether or not Loras is innocent and we of course know that he isn't. (The charges are bullshit of course but it's true that he had sex with Olyvar.) Once the show made this change I became even more convinced that Margaery's death would happen. She did lie and she is guilty but the charges are bullshit so people are going to be totally upset when she's executed because her offense is nonexistent unless of course you're asking some religious fanatic.

I definitely, definitely think it's too soon to lose both Jaime and Cersei.

I love your speculation about LF sitting on the Iron Throne only not in an official sense. I can totally see his smarmy ass getting cocky and just trying it out to see what it would feel like.

Advance35 · July 20, 2015

Cersei's impressions of Lysa are all negative and while I don't think Cersei is a POV to be trusted when it comes to various things I think it's pretty easy to imagine how the dynamic would have been between the two of them. With Cersei outranking Lysa in every way I can see Cersei being all smug while Lysa is all resentful but I can also see Lysa sort of almost subconsciously emulating Cersei once she gets back to the Eyrie. For over a decade Cersei has been the example she's seen of a female with some degree of power. This is also true of Selyse when she was living in King's Landing. (Actually, did Selyse ever live at court or was she forced to hang out on Dragonstone while Stannis was a memeber of the small council?)

This is a good point. It's so hard to tell with such paranoid and deviant personalities at play. But Lysa very much considers House Lannister an enemy in both show and book. I think it was in the book she intimated that Joffrey and Robin didn't get along. And considering what smother mothers Cersei and Lysa are I can imagine it became necessary for one to leave Kings Landing. I don't recall if Selyse was ever there though. That's a good question.

Thank you for pointing out that there's plenty of potential for corruption in the Vale. I sometimes get the impression that people think the Vale is somehow more righteous than any other part of Westeros and I don't think there's any reason to think that they aren't going to get mired down in political shit and dishonorable behavior like any of the other kingdoms.

The Vale is great. I know some book!walkers weren't overly enthused with that detour, but I actually got really caught up with all of the plots, subplots and counter plots, that were brewing amidst the Vale nobility.

I don't see Myranda seducing Harry, I think that would have happened already, he seems far to status concious now. Myranda would need to be able to offer him something better than anyone else and her father being Lord of the Gates of the Moon pales to the financing/connections LF's "daughter" brings to couple with what he thinks is his inevitable inheritance as Robin's heir.

And

TWOW Alayne chapter definitely illustrated an environment of intrigue. To say nothing of operators like Lyn Cobray slithering around. And I really liked the feast described after LF and Sansa have their little plotting session.

I know the showrunners could not do the Vale storyline, they would have had to cut Arya in addition to Bran (which I personally could have lived with) but the potential definitely has it's appeal. I think my ideal Harry the Heir would have been Charlie Hunnam.

I love your speculation about LF sitting on the Iron Throne only not in an official sense. I can totally see his smarmy ass getting cocky and just trying it out to see what it would feel like.

We don't know where he is at the close of the season but since Varys is in Mereen I do wonder if they will have Baelish stay in Kings Landing. IF he does, I think that's where Sansa's destiny lies. The book fates will be met by the show counterparts so I definitely don't think we've seen the last of thier interactions it's just a matter of what the backdrop will be, the North or the South.

BlackberryJam · July 20, 2015

Oh...pre-series Joffrey, Robin Arryn and Shireen, being forced to hang out together in King's Landing. Now that would be quite the teen soap opera.

screamin · July 20, 2015

I think we are meant to compare Robin to the other boys his age, who are so bright, capable, and eager to learn, and realize that something is not quite right about Robin.
...

Show!Robin is 13. Older than Shireen, or season one Bran or Tommen or Arya. Same age as Season Two Sansa. I am less optimistic than most people that there's anything that can be done about the poor kid, but it's possible I guess. I compare him to the commoners his age: Ollie, Hot Pie, Lommy Greenhands....they had skills already at his age. Gendry was already smithing at Robin's age. If he weren't so obviously dying in the book my money would be on Robin for King at the end, because he's just the kind of idiot Westeros does deserve.

I think the show and the book clearly tell us that, yes, there IS something not quite right about Robin. It's no secret. Robin, unlike the other boys you mentioned, is seriously physically ill with epilepsy - an illness that may easily kill him before he grows up. His mother has coddled and overprotected him because of this - basically not allowed him to escape the womb all these years. His mother raised him herself completely - his worldview IS Lysa's.

And Lysa's worldview is completely warped with fear and paranoia. After a horrible injustice and trauma that was done to her as a child by her own father, she retaliated by having a years-long affair with LF...a man she loved who did not love her, but found profit in deceiving her to fulfil his own ambitions. Lysa's adultery is enough to earn her a death penalty all by itself - so she lived for years with the fear of being found out. THEN, LF maneuvers her into killing her husband AND deceiving her sister and Ned into believing the Lannisters were responsible - thus provoking a war between them. THAT'S an even bigger weight of guilt on her conscience, an even greater punishment that she deserves and wants to avoid at all costs. So when we see her blustering on the throne in the Eyrie at Tyrion's trial, what we're seeing is not joy in her power or in sadism. She's not boasting about making bad men fly for the fun of it. She's terrified that her chickens are coming home to roost, that the throne she's stolen by murder may be taken from her and that she will be punished for her crimes, so she uses its power indiscriminately to defend herself from the perceived threat.

And IIRC, she passes the fear on to Robin. Yes, there are dangerous bad men all around, but mama will protect you from them and we will make them fly. And she also passes on the fear that his own body will betray him. Yes, she says he will grow up to be a big strong man one day, but she also says he must not exert himself in exercise, or reading, or anything, because it would harm him, and he must keep breastfeeding or the seizures will get worse (kid heard it all, he practically lived in her cleavage). So IMO, Robin's bluster is fundamentally the same as Lysa - it doesn't come out of pleasure in sadism (like Joffrey's), it comes out of fear.

Since Lysa's death, things have gotten worse. Mommy warned him of the dangers of the world and promised to keep him safe from it, but couldn't keep even herself safe. The power of the Vale throne wasn't enough to protect her. Her murder proved she was right about the dangerous world. Now LF has the power, not Robin, and he's afraid of LF - and he's actually right to be afraid.

IMO, he's not an idiot...despite all his handicaps, he's got some accurate impressions of the world around him. He knows that Harry the Heir is just waiting for him to die so he can take the throne. Who told him? His mama wouldn't tell him that he's destined to die young. LF wouldn't tell him - he'd rather keep him ignorant of the fact so he can dispatch him more easily at the right time. Sansa wouldn't tell him. He figured it out on his own.

His fear of LF is more accurate than Sansa's...Sansa in her last written chapter still has charitable hopes that Robin will survive childhood long enough to marry some nice highborn maid who definitely isn't Sansa. But I think it's pretty clear that LF won't let that happen. If Robin shows any worrying signs of surviving puberty, IMO, LF will make sure he gets an OD of sweetmilk - if he doesn't do so as soon as Harry's marriage to Sansa/Alayne is celebrated.

So IMO, if Robin lashes out, it's because he's afraid and there's really nothing he can do to ward off the fear. He has no real power, there are real dangers about him and even his own body is betraying him, a constant danger to his survival. To me, he's really quite a pitiful figure, which makes his own efforts to be a better person under Sansa's guidance all the more notable...like when she influences him to bravely walk the narrow mountain path. Despite the fact that he's a bratty, annoying, unpromising kid, he really does love her and is capable of wanting to be better for her...which shows that he is a redeemable character.

To me, GRRM wouldn't lightly consign a child who's had some very tough breaks (whether that child is eight or thirteen) to the status of being irredeemable without a really good reason. But being GRRM, I suspect he's going to show us Robin redeeming himself and winning our sympathy by making real efforts to grow up into a worthy man - only so it will be harder on us when he's murdered by LF. IMO, his death will serve as the last straw to turn Sansa against LF.

Avaleigh · July 20, 2015

I agree that Robin is going to OD on sweetsleep in the books. Not sure about the show though. The Maester in the books is super paranoid about how much he's already been given and at one point says that he shouldn't be given any more for the rest of the year (or maybe it was six months.) I think we'll see Robert bleeding at the nose at some point and then it will only be a matter of time. It might even happen at the tourney or the tourney feast. Littlefinger will use the excuse that Robert can't go around shaking in front of the people at the tourney so instead he'll just have him collapse and die in front of everyone and it'll appear to everyone on the surface that Robert died of his shaking sickness.

One the show I don't even think they've made a reference to the sweetsleep, have they? He doesn't have any epileptic fits either. Maybe they'll force Littlefinger to do it himself and he'll join the ranks of Stannis, Janos, Polliver, and the Hound?

I can see Lysa being paranoid that her chickens are coming home to roost. The way she doesn't want to part with a single soldier suggest to me that she thinks it's only a matter of time before the enemies that she's made decide to come after her. At the same time she's super delusional and doesn't see the sense in what Cat is saying when she argues that it's stupid to have Tyrion killed. Lysa wasn't acting like a woman who was concerned about the wrath of House Lannister. She objected to Tyrion's presence at the Eyrie in the beginning but once he was there it was like she decided to jump at a chance where she thought she'd be able have it said once and for all that Tyrion died because the gods were punishing him for his role in Jon Arryn's death. She was incredibly unconcerned about what the fallout would be if Tyrion were thrown through the Moon Door and that was an odd reaction to have when I consider how upset she initially was when Catelyn first brought Tyrion.

SeanC · July 20, 2015

And Lysa's worldview is completely warped with fear and paranoia. After a horrible injustice and trauma that was done to her as a child by her own father, she retaliated by having a years-long affair with LF...a man she loved who did not love her, but found profit in deceiving her to fulfil his own ambitions. Lysa's adultery is enough to earn her a death penalty all by itself - so she lived for years with the fear of being found out.

Minor point, but I don't think Lysa and Littlefinger were having an affair in King's Landing. Lysa's behavior in ASOS is really more suggestive of somebody who's been waiting years, rather than somebody who's been engaged in a secret affair all along.

One the show I don't even think they've made a reference to the sweetsleep, have they? He doesn't have any epileptic fits either. Maybe they'll force Littlefinger to do it himself and he'll join the ranks of Stannis, Janos, Polliver, and the Hound?

Littlefinger on the show has no motive to kill Robin. The only reason to do that is to replace him with Harry, but Harry doesn't exist; in the show, Littlefinger has got everything he wants out of the Vale arrangement without needing to kill him.

Avaleigh · July 20, 2015

What if Robin improves during his time with Royce and he objects to something that Littlefinger tries to do? What happens then?

Hecate7 · July 20, 2015

I think the show and the book clearly tell us that, yes, there IS something not quite right about Robin. It's no secret. Robin, unlike the other boys you mentioned, is seriously physically ill with epilepsy - an illness that may easily kill him before he grows up. His mother has coddled and overprotected him because of this - basically not allowed him to escape the womb all these years. His mother raised him herself completely - his worldview IS Lysa's.

And Lysa's worldview is completely warped with fear and paranoia. After a horrible injustice and trauma that was done to her as a child by her own father, she retaliated by having a years-long affair with LF...a man she loved who did not love her, but found profit in deceiving her to fulfil his own ambitions. Lysa's adultery is enough to earn her a death penalty all by itself - so she lived for years with the fear of being found out. THEN, LF maneuvers her into killing her husband AND deceiving her sister and Ned into believing the Lannisters were responsible - thus provoking a war between them. THAT'S an even bigger weight of guilt on her conscience, an even greater punishment that she deserves and wants to avoid at all costs. So when we see her blustering on the throne in the Eyrie at Tyrion's trial, what we're seeing is not joy in her power or in sadism. She's not boasting about making bad men fly for the fun of it. She's terrified that her chickens are coming home to roost, that the throne she's stolen by murder may be taken from her and that she will be punished for her crimes, so she uses its power indiscriminately to defend herself from the perceived threat.

And IIRC, she passes the fear on to Robin. Yes, there are dangerous bad men all around, but mama will protect you from them and we will make them fly. And she also passes on the fear that his own body will betray him. Yes, she says he will grow up to be a big strong man one day, but she also says he must not exert himself in exercise, or reading, or anything, because it would harm him, and he must keep breastfeeding or the seizures will get worse (kid heard it all, he practically lived in her cleavage). So IMO, Robin's bluster is fundamentally the same as Lysa - it doesn't come out of pleasure in sadism (like Joffrey's), it comes out of fear.

Since Lysa's death, things have gotten worse. Mommy warned him of the dangers of the world and promised to keep him safe from it, but couldn't keep even herself safe. The power of the Vale throne wasn't enough to protect her. Her murder proved she was right about the dangerous world. Now LF has the power, not Robin, and he's afraid of LF - and he's actually right to be afraid.

IMO, he's not an idiot...despite all his handicaps, he's got some accurate impressions of the world around him. He knows that Harry the Heir is just waiting for him to die so he can take the throne. Who told him? His mama wouldn't tell him that he's destined to die young. LF wouldn't tell him - he'd rather keep him ignorant of the fact so he can dispatch him more easily at the right time. Sansa wouldn't tell him. He figured it out on his own.

His fear of LF is more accurate than Sansa's...Sansa in her last written chapter still has charitable hopes that Robin will survive childhood long enough to marry some nice highborn maid who definitely isn't Sansa. But I think it's pretty clear that LF won't let that happen. If Robin shows any worrying signs of surviving puberty, IMO, LF will make sure he gets an OD of sweetmilk - if he doesn't do so as soon as Harry's marriage to Sansa/Alayne is celebrated.

So IMO, if Robin lashes out, it's because he's afraid and there's really nothing he can do to ward off the fear. He has no real power, there are real dangers about him and even his own body is betraying him, a constant danger to his survival. To me, he's really quite a pitiful figure, which makes his own efforts to be a better person under Sansa's guidance all the more notable...like when she influences him to bravely walk the narrow mountain path. Despite the fact that he's a bratty, annoying, unpromising kid, he really does love her and is capable of wanting to be better for her...which shows that he is a redeemable character.

To me, GRRM wouldn't lightly consign a child who's had some very tough breaks (whether that child is eight or thirteen) to the status of being irredeemable without a really good reason. But being GRRM, I suspect he's going to show us Robin redeeming himself and winning our sympathy by making real efforts to grow up into a worthy man - only so it will be harder on us when he's murdered by LF. IMO, his death will serve as the last straw to turn Sansa against LF.

Good points about Lyssa's paranoia--it's just like Cersei's. Robin still takes far too much pleasure in the Moon Door for my taste, and I cannot help comparing him to Shireen Baratheon. She is his age, and her mother is just as monstrous as his. They are similarly imprisoned because of health reasons.

Minor point, but I don't think Lysa and Littlefinger were having an affair in King's Landing. Lysa's behavior in ASOS is really more suggestive of somebody who's been waiting years, rather than somebody who's been engaged in a secret affair all along.

Littlefinger on the show has no motive to kill Robin. The only reason to do that is to replace him with Harry, but Harry doesn't exist; in the show, Littlefinger has got everything he wants out of the Vale arrangement without needing to kill him.

Actually, it makes sense if they were. She's been waiting for years to have Littlefinger as her HUSBAND. She's already had sex and gotten pregnant by him at least once.

Also, Harry, with sandy hair and blue eyes, "looks like a young Jon Arryn." Sweetrobin has neither sandy hair nor blue eyes. Lyssa, a Tully, has red hair and blue eyes. Robin doesn't look at all like a Tully, either. He looks like Littlefinger. That could be another reason why she is so overprotective of him. Sadly children inherit their brains from their mothers, and their endocrinology and emotional chemistry from their fathers, as a rule.

Avaleigh · July 20, 2015

My headcanon pretty much changed once we got that description of Harry. It totally surprised me. I agree with the speculation that Robin is Petyr's.

Hecate7 · July 20, 2015

It explains why "the seed is strong" went right over Lyssa's head, and why she'd think it was about Robin.

screamin · July 21, 2015

I can see Lysa being paranoid that her chickens are coming home to roost. The way she doesn't want to part with a single soldier suggest to me that she thinks it's only a matter of time before the enemies that she's made decide to come after her. At the same time she's super delusional and doesn't see the sense in what Cat is saying when she argues that it's stupid to have Tyrion killed. Lysa wasn't acting like a woman who was concerned about the wrath of House Lannister. She objected to Tyrion's presence at the Eyrie in the beginning but once he was there it was like she decided to jump at a chance where she thought she'd be able have it said once and for all that Tyrion died because the gods were punishing him for his role in Jon Arryn's death. She was incredibly unconcerned about what the fallout would be if Tyrion were thrown through the Moon Door and that was an odd reaction to have when I consider how upset she initially was when Catelyn first brought Tyrion.

I agree that Lysa acted stupidly by underestimating Tyrion in that trial...she should never have allowed him the opportunity to slip through her fingers, nor should she have tried to condemn him to death when he'd serve better as a hostage and bargaining chip with his family. But IMO, since Cat brought Tyrion to the Eyrie and publically accused him and his family of the murder of Jon Arryn, Lysa kind of HAS to take a side. The war has started already. She can't afford to outright estrange the Starks by rejecting Cat and her claim for help, because the Lannisters might find out about her treachery anyway, and then she'd be at war with them without the alliance of the Starks to help her. Not to mention that the Vale is already suspicious about the death of Jon Arryn and upset about the Lannisters naming Jaime as Warden of the East. If Lyssa suddenly backs off from her accusation of the Lannisters and publically turns on her own sister, she may cast suspicion on herself as the true culprit.

Lyssa's guilt about her crime drives her to try to make herself safer in the Vale by pinning Jon Arryn's death securely on someone else - on Tyrion. If she gets him to confess she will have the Vale solidly with her and against the Lannisters permanently, and she doesn't think further ahead than her idea that the Eyrie, defended by the Vale, is impregnable. First she tries to starve Tyrion into a confession - then Tyrion outsmarts her into the trial by battle. But by trying to appear strong before the Vale, she ends up letting Tyrion slip through her fingers and ends up looking weak.

Good points about Lyssa's paranoia--it's just like Cersei's.

I tend to think that if she's like either of the twins, she's more like Jaime...LF is the utterly dominant one in their relationship, and Lyssa will do anything to please him, like Cersei was dominant over Jaime and he was content to do whatever she wants. But Lyssa lacks both Jaime's nerve and his brains, his capacity to learn when he's forced to. And IMO, Lyssa was a lot more traumatized than Cersei ever was...I mean, an involuntary abortion of a wanted child forced on her at fourteen by her own father, followed by an unwilling marriage to a proud man who kind of despised her and her non-virgin status, followed by four OTHER miscarriages and two stillbirths...I'd say she has a lot more excuse for her loony misdeeds than Cersei did, since it seems Cersei acted out more through sociopathic ambition than anything else.

Minor point, but I don't think Lysa and Littlefinger were having an affair in King's Landing. Lysa's behavior in ASOS is really more suggestive of somebody who's been waiting years, rather than somebody who's been engaged in a secret affair all along.

I think on Lysa's wedding day, she said she was sick of sneaking around and being quiet, and now she was going to SCREAM with Petyr...which IMO sort of implied that they did have some furtive clandestine connections now and then, and Lyssa wanted be with him openly.

Sweetrobin has neither sandy hair nor blue eyes.

What color ARE Sweetrobin's eyes?

I tend to think that Sweetrobin IS really Arryn's son, if only because in her last scene Lyssa would have certainly mentioned it if she HAD given LF a son, instead of saying this:

I would have given you a son too, but they murdered him with moon tea, with tansy and mint and wormwood, a spoon of honey and a drop of permyroyal....

She was enumerating all the things she had done to bind Petyr's love to her...if she'd risked having his child and passing it off as Jon Arryn's, I think she'd have mentioned it then.

Hecate7 · July 21, 2015

She was enumerating all the things she had done to bind Petyr's love to her...if she'd risked having his child and passing it off as Jon Arryn's, I think she'd have mentioned it then.

That's a really good point, actually. I had forgotten that.

Avaleigh · July 21, 2015

Isn't this going to be one of those things where we won't know for sure, it's just heavily implied? I can see her not wanting her boy to have the label of bastard even in private. For all intents and purposes Robin is Jon Arryn's son even if he isn't his biological kid.

The son of Petyr's that was murdered was his for sure but presumably with Robin both Jon and Petyr are candidates and Lysa didn't know for sure.

Fair enough though that if we were going to get confirmation through the characters that it ought to have happened then.

SeanC · July 21, 2015

That's one of the sticking points for me. If there was any chance that Littlefinger was Robert's dad, it seems like Lysa would have latched onto that like mad.

Hecate7 · July 21, 2015

You would think. But in all the illustrations, and on the show, he does have brown hair and brown eyes. And he's small, which isn't a Tully or an Arryn trait, but it sure is a Littlefinger trait. It's a puzzler.

screamin · July 21, 2015

Eh, I re-read the new Sansa chapter and I think the description of Harry the Heir as looking like "a young Jon Arryn" shouldn't be given TOO much weight. I mean, Sansa herself had never actually seen a young Jon Arryn - she was going by what a few old men who had seen Jon Arryn in his prime thought about Harry. And all those old men actually SAID was that he had "the look" of young Jon Arryn, which doesn't necessarily mean that he's the exact spit and image of young Arryn, just that he had points of resemblance, which might or might not include details of eye or hair tint. IMO, it basically means that he is young, strong, and vigorous, just as they nostalgically remember their beloved Lord to have been in his youth - and not tremulous and weak, the way his son Robin looks now. To me, it's a hint that Harry would be the heir that many would prefer - and so any attempt to preserve Robin's life when the time comes will probably be met with opposition by many as his death would give them a worthier ruler.

I can see her not wanting her boy to have the label of bastard even in private. For all intents and purposes Robin is Jon Arryn's son even if he isn't his biological kid.

We're talking about Lysa's very last scene, where she's throwing EVERYTHING she's done for Petyr in his face to prove how much she loved him - including boasting about how she poisoned Jon Arryn to please him. You think she's okay with shrieking in LF's face that she poisoned the Lord of the Vale for him - but telling LF that she'd borne his bastard son would be too indiscreet for her?

I don't. If Lysa had taken the risk of trying to bear Petyr a son and pass it off as Jon Arryn's - regardless of whether she was sure she was successful or not - she would have told him of it then. Especially when you consider how she obsessed about how she'd been forced to abort Petyr's child, and felt guilty about it - as she also mentioned in her swan song speech. If there'd ever been even the POSSIBILITY that Robin was Petyr's child, that she'd managed to give Petyr another son to replace the one her father had forced her to murder - she would have convinced herself that Robin WAS Petyr's son, and told him so as another reason why he HAD to love her. Lysa always had an infinite capacity to deceive herself where Petyr was concerned.

Hecate7 · July 21, 2015

I can think of one reason for Lyssa NOT to say it. If she says it, and people hear, then Robin Arryn is no longer Robin Arryn, Lord of the Vale. He is Robin Stone, bastard child of Petyr Baelish, and not lord of anything. Moreover, Peter Baelish is no longer Lord Protector of the Vale. Lyssa herself would be disgraced, and the castle passes to Harold Hardying, and then to his children, unless they die in which case it passes to Sansa.

That actually is reason enough for Lyssa NOT to throw Robin in Petyr's face, and for her to take his parentage to the grave. The more I think about it, the more I think he IS Baelish's after all, because I don't think she'd have been quite so obsessive about him otherwise.

polyhymnia · July 21, 2015

I like the notion that she isn't sure if it's Petyr or Jon's and that the "seed is strong" bit freaked her out.

This brings me back to Jaime acknowledging to Myrcella that he is her father. Why would he do that, even to her, even in private? I mean, she is ostensibly dead and it doesn't matter but it didn't make any sense to me other than to have a touching moment in the show.

nksarmi · July 21, 2015

I think Lyssa is just freaking nuts. I mean, she sure as hell is played that way in the show. In the books, she fell in love with a boy who was using her as a stand in to the girl he really liked. So Lyssa goes around feeling inferior to Catelyn and then LF damn near gets himself killed because of his obsession with her sister. Others have said that Lyssa might have tricked him into having sex with her and if that is the case, it seems like she was already strangely obsessed with a boy who did not return her affection. Then you have the forced abortion AND forced marriage to a much older man so she really had little change to fall in love with anyone else.

But what I wonder is when and how did LF make his way onto the king's small counsel? When did he make his money? Did he do it on his own once Catelyn was no longer available to pursue and Lyssa was married off or did he use Lyssa's husband's position as Hand of the King to set himself up? I figure the changes of Robin being LF's go up if he was using Lyssa to advance his political career and they go down if he did it on his own separate from her. But I still think she's nuts - at some point in time, LF just decided to use the fruitcake to his own gain.

The Mormegil · July 21, 2015

But what I wonder is when and how did LF make his way onto the king's small counsel? When did he make his money? Did he do it on his own once Catelyn was no longer available to pursue and Lyssa was married off or did he use Lyssa's husband's position as Hand of the King to set himself up? I figure the changes of Robin being LF's go up if he was using Lyssa to advance his political career and they go down if he did it on his own separate from her. But I still think she's nuts - at some point in time, LF just decided to use the fruitcake to his own gain.

It's said I believe (can't recall where exactly) that Lysa got Jon to hire Littlefinger once he became Hand. LF started off in a lowly position but used his skills to move up the Ladder.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Petyr_Baelish

Lysa convinced her husband to give Petyr control of customs at Gulltown, where he increased incomes tenfold. His skill with finances resulted in a series of appointments leading to his being named master of coin in King's Landing under King Robert I Baratheon.[7] There his influence furnished him with many allies and contacts, including the City Watch. He also bought numerous brothels in the city.

Hecate7 · July 21, 2015

Of course he used Lyssa to advance his career. Jon Arryn was probably highly instrumental in placing him on the small council. Who else does Baelish know, that would have recommended him?

AshleyN · July 21, 2015

I can think of one reason for Lyssa NOT to say it. If she says it, and people hear, then Robin Arryn is no longer Robin Arryn, Lord of the Vale. He is Robin Stone, bastard child of Petyr Baelish, and not lord of anything. Moreover, Peter Baelish is no longer Lord Protector of the Vale. Lyssa herself would be disgraced, and the castle passes to Harold Hardying, and then to his children, unless they die in which case it passes to Sansa.

It's been awhile since I read the book, but my recollection of that scene is that she had pretty much completely lost it and clearly wasn't thinking of the consequences of what she was saying. If she had, she wouldn't have brought up the murder of Jon Arryn, an equally dangerous confession.

nksarmi · July 21, 2015

Of course he used Lyssa to advance his career. Jon Arryn was probably highly instrumental in placing him on the small council. Who else does Baelish know, that would have recommended him?

It's something I haven't thought much about when it comes to LF (I honestly haven't thought much about how long or often he and Lyssa were involved either) but so many people call him "self-made" or talk about how he "rose from nothing" that when I was reading this discussion - I really couldn't remember how much Lyssa did for him. Given her obsession with him and that she didn't want to marry Jon Arryn, it actually makes perfect sense that she would do whatever she could to advance him in his career. I don't know if that means they were sexually involved all along or if that came later when LF became more of a user.

I just don't know if LF started out a pretty good kid the way Catelyn remembers him and changed over the years OR if he was scummy from the get go. In that sense, he is a bit like Theon - in other words, did Theon consider himself a Stark and Robb's brother and he changed when his father rejected him OR was there always resentment bubbling there under the surface? Anyway, anyone have any thoughts on if he was cold and calculating and using Lyssa all along or if she was just obsessed with him and he eventually figured out how to use that for his own gain?

Avaleigh · July 22, 2015

Another thing I think about it that Jon Arryn was married two other times and obviously neither marriage produced children. One wife died after having a stillborn child and one didn't get pregnant at all. Lysa struggles for years with Jon and then finally manages to bring one pregnancy to full term and the timeline works as far as she and Littlefinger possibly renewing their affair.

I can also see Littlefinger telling Lysa to always act as if it isn't their kid because anyone knowing the truth doesn't do any of the three people involved any good. She might have thought reminding Petyr that Robert is his would be exactly what he wouldn't want to hear.

Again though I don't really think we'll get confirmation either way and I can totally see how the argument works and is possibly even stronger if Robin simply is Jon Arryn's kid. I think I just like the idea of Robin being Petyr's for a list of reasons. I agree too that there's something fun about the idea of Lysa being freaked out in thinking that the seed is strong is something that applies to her, Petyr, and Robin as opposed to the Lannisters.

screamin · July 22, 2015

I just don't know if LF started out a pretty good kid the way Catelyn remembers him and changed over the years OR if he was scummy from the get go. In that sense, he is a bit like Theon - in other words, did Theon consider himself a Stark and Robb's brother and he changed when his father rejected him OR was there always resentment bubbling there under the surface? Anyway, anyone have any thoughts on if he was cold and calculating and using Lyssa all along or if she was just obsessed with him and he eventually figured out how to use that for his own gain?

I don't know that Cat ever remembered him as a GOOD kid...she remembered him as a charming, sly and persuasive one (she did kiss him that time, after all), but I don't remember her ever recalling any particularly good thing he'd done. The one notable thing we know he did in childhood was challenge Brandon at age fourteen to that duel for Cat's hand, which was probably the formative event of his childhood. I mean, he felt strongly enough about Cat that he was willing to act suicidal to impress her - the sort of thing a hot-headed adolescent would do.

Even if we give LF the benefit of the doubt and say that he had a Cunning Plan to beat Brandon by going in to the fight lightly armored and beat him by being faster and lighter on his feet (a plan Brandon then foiled by chivalrously taking off his own extra armor so they could meet on equal terms) LF had to know he was probably going to be killed. Cat was so important to him at the time that Unlikely Victory/Probable Heroic Death To Impress Cat looked like win/win to him - a calculus that only really makes sense to an infatuated fourteen year old boy.

Unfortunately he was deprived of either when Brandon kicked his ass and the girl he risked his life to impress saved it out of pity, persuading Brandon to just wound him instead of killing him. It was a huge humiliation. He might have initially salvaged a bit of self-respect by imagining that Cat really did love him but gave in due to social pressure, but when Brandon was killed Cat never even bothered to write back to him, and married Ned and apparently lived happily ever after without giving him a second thought.

He may have told himself he was motivated all his life by love of Cat, but I'd say his subsequent actions (which predictably led to Ned and Robb and eventually even Cat getting killed due to LF's ambition) showed he doesn't really love her - he's more out to avenge his wounded self-love. And his years-long manipulation of Lysa to get Jon Arryn to get him out of the Fingers where Hoster exiled him so he could rise to power pretty much reveals him as a sociopath.

benteen · July 22, 2015

The men of House Baelish seem to have been very good at improving their status from generation to generation. From foreign sellsword to hedge knight to minor lord to ruling lord, the men of House Baelish seem to know how to play the game. Petyr's father got his son fostered with House Tully and LF was able to use that to sink his teeth into Lysa and improve his own status.

Dev F · July 22, 2015

I like the notion that she isn't sure if it's Petyr or Jon's and that the "seed is strong" bit freaked her out.

But it didn't freak her out. She brags about it to her sister, believing that Jon was talking about how strong Sweetrobin was. Which is exactly not what she would do if she were trying to deflect attention from the issue of her son's parentage.

This sort of double-triple-secret plot twist would be a bridge too far for me. "Lysa Arryn thinks that 'The seed is strong' is about how strong her son is, but really it's about the strength of King Robert's genetics -- but, no, Lysa actually thought that Jon had uncovered the secret of Sweetrobin's parentage, and she was just pretending to think it was about her son being a strong boy to mislead anyone else who heard him say that." That's some soap-opera-level convolution right there.

ElizaD · July 22, 2015

ASOIAF already has a parentage reveal that got the plot moving (Jaime + Cersei = "royal" heirs) and another that is not known to the characters but very likely to be confirmed next season after years of being accepted as almost fact (R+L=J). That's why I've never been fond of Aerys + Joanna and Littlefinger + Lysa theories myself. Both require so many contortions for little gain, and L+L in particular requires accepting that the manic pre-Moon Door Lysa, who was confessing everything else, wouldn't have been clinging to the possibility that she did give Littlefinger a son even though their first child was taken from them. I prefer the "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" options: if Tyrion becomes a dragonrider he'll do it because he has the wits, desire and book knowledge to experiment with dragontaming, and Robin is the hardiest of Jon Arryn's sickly offspring.

Personally, I believe that Littlefinger was smart enough and Lysa delusional enough that he was able to manipulate her without taking the unnecessary risk of a physical affair, which could have gotten him killed if it had been discovered and given him nothing since he wasn't attracted to her. Lysa talks about silence and whisperings and screaming now that they're going to be married: I never had the impression that there had been an affair they'd been hiding Jaime/Cersei style, but that Lysa had only gotten sweet words but no sex from Littlefinger.

Avaleigh · July 22, 2015

ASOIAF already has a parentage reveal that got the plot moving (Jaime + Cersei = "royal" heirs) and another that is not known to the characters but very likely to be confirmed next season after years of being accepted as almost fact (R+L=J). That's why I've never been fond of Aerys + Joanna and Littlefinger + Lysa theories myself. Both require so many contortions for little gain, and L+L in particular requires accepting that the manic pre-Moon Door Lysa, who was confessing everything else, wouldn't have been clinging to the possibility that she did give Littlefinger a son even though their first child was taken from them. I prefer the "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" options: if Tyrion becomes a dragonrider he'll do it because he has the wits, desire and book knowledge to experiment with dragontaming, and Robin is the hardiest of Jon Arryn's sickly offspring.

Personally, I believe that Littlefinger was smart enough and Lysa delusional enough that he was able to manipulate her without taking the unnecessary risk of a physical affair, which could have gotten him killed if it had been discovered and given him nothing since he wasn't attracted to her. Lysa talks about silence and whisperings and screaming now that they're going to be married: I never had the impression that there had been an affair they'd been hiding Jaime/Cersei style, but that Lysa had only gotten sweet words but no sex from Littlefinger.

I'm sure that Littlefinger was able to put Lysa off for the most part. I feel like her desire to be able to finally be loud though is an indication that there were a few quiet encounters back when Jon was still alive.

I agree that there is little to no gain with a Lysa + Littlefinger = Sweetrobin reveal. It's mainly something I sort of like as opposed to something I see a bunch of evidence for. The only reason I seriously started considering the theory in the first place is all down to physical description. Robin doesn't sound like a red headed Tully and he doesn't seem like a blonde Jon/Harry type. Apart from that everything else points in Jon Arryn's direction.

I disagree though that this is at all comparable to Aerys + Joanna = Tyrion. I see there being a lot gained with that theory and disagree with the idea that it ruins the relationship with Tywin (which is the chief objection to the theory by far.) I don't think it's any more complicated than RLJ and don't think that it's retreading the same territory or takes away from Jon's story. They're very different IMO.

Tyrion becoming a dragonrider makes a lot more sense with an AJT reveal when I consider all of the evidence.

ElizaD · July 22, 2015

I disagree though that this is at all comparable to Aerys + Joanna = Tyrion. I see there being a lot gained with that theory and disagree with the idea that it ruins the relationship with Tywin (which is the chief objection to the theory by far.) I don't think it's any more complicated than RLJ and don't think that it's retreading the same territory or takes away from Jon's story. They're very different IMO.

Tyrion becoming a dragonrider makes a lot more sense with an AJT reveal when I consider all of the evidence.

Though I'm absolutely sure that Tyrion is Tywin's son (especially since there's been zero hint of anything else on the show while R+L=J got more foreshadowing in season 5 and probably gets the TOJ in season 6), I do agree that it's possible to make an argument for it that has more logic that the crackpot theories of ASOIAF. In my case, I really dislike not only what it would do to the Tywin/Tyrion relationship and how it uses literal interpretations ("you are no son of mine"), random comments (Aerys and the bedding), and material that's not required reading (the worldbook). IMO, the worst thing would be the way it would make ASOIAF about bloodlines and embrace the chosen one trope: Dany, Jon and Tyrion would all be Targaryens whose mothers died in childbirth and who were conceived as a result of rape or at least somewhat dubious power relations (Lyanna may have loved Rhaegar, but she was 15-16 and hidden in a remote tower by a married man). That kind of exact repetition of circumstances is a destiny cliche I dislike because it leaves no room for alternatives and the idea that someone else could rise to the occasion, with added skeeviness since rape was required for the saviors of the world to be born. It's like if only pure-bloods got to attend Hogwarts and the fantasy racists were right about being a superior breed apart: at least one of the dragonriders should be a Muggle, and Tyrion Tywinson is the best best for ASOIAF's Hermione as the character who has talent and the ability to learn despite not having a magical bloodline.

Avaleigh · July 22, 2015

Though I'm absolutely sure that Tyrion is Tywin's son (especially since there's been zero hint of anything else on the show while R+L=J got more foreshadowing in season 5 and probably gets the TOJ in season 6), I do agree that it's possible to make an argument for it that has more logic that the crackpot theories of ASOIAF. In my case, I really dislike not only what it would do to the Tywin/Tyrion relationship and how it uses literal interpretations ("you are no son of mine"), random comments (Aerys and the bedding), and material that's not required reading (the worldbook). IMO, the worst thing would be the way it would make ASOIAF about bloodlines and embrace the chosen one trope: Dany, Jon and Tyrion would all be Targaryens whose mothers died in childbirth and who were conceived as a result of rape or at least somewhat dubious power relations (Lyanna may have loved Rhaegar, but she was 15-16 and hidden in a remote tower by a married man). That kind of exact repetition of circumstances is a destiny cliche I dislike because it leaves no room for alternatives and the idea that someone else could rise to the occasion, with added skeeviness since rape was required for the saviors of the world to be born. It's like if only pure-bloods got to attend Hogwarts and the fantasy racists were right about being a superior breed apart: at least one of the dragonriders should be a Muggle, and Tyrion Tywinson is the best best for ASOIAF's Hermione as the character who has talent and the ability to learn despite not having a magical bloodline.

I see the blood as helping as opposed to being the only thing that makes a person worthy of being a dragonrider. It's one of the reasons I'm one of the few who doesn't think that Quentyn's purpose was totally pointless. A person can have Targaryen blood and still not be worthy of being a dragonrider.

I think it took talent, courage, and ability in addition to having the blood for Dany to become a rider. If Viserys had lived I doubt having the blood would have been enough. Similarly, I don't think that Jon and Tyrion's blood will be the only reason they end up becoming dragonriders.

There's plenty of evidence even without the world book but the world book has certainly given additional clues that very much point towards the theory, the big one of course being that Joanna and Aerys were in the same place during Tyrion's conception and that *something* happened to make Tywin want to resign. I felt like it was a way to kind of prepare people while also throwing water onto some other theories like the possibility that Jaime and Cersei are Targaryens. (The timeline doesn't work for this one.)

More than the focus on the blood, I like what it does for the Jon/Tyrion relationship in the beginning in addition to what it does for the Tyrion/Dany relationship on the show. Jon getting advice from his uncle, Dany getting advice from her older half brother--I like it. I also like the twist of Jaime and Tyrion being responsible for killing each other's fathers. I like how it makes sense of the dream where Tyrion has two heads and one is crying while the other is weeping.

I don't think Jon is a product of rape. I think that he is the embodiment of the song of ice and fire.

If Dany and Tyrion both have the same father then we're talking about the same man being a rapist which seems pretty consistent to me. I don't think the message is that saviors need to come from rape. I just think that two (out of several) heroes in the story happen to have had a father who was a rapist. If Tywin is Tyrion's father Tywin is an accomplice to multiple rapes anyway so I feel like Tyrion kind of has a murdering rapist for a father either way.

ETA:

I disagree that there have been zero hints on the show. I thought the explanation that Tywin gave to Tyrion about how he wanted to dump him into the sea when he was born was a clue. I also think there's a reason they waited so long to even tell us Joanna's name. I feel like they've kept a lot of the important lines from the book like "all dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes". I also think "you're no son of mine" means exactly what Tywin says it means.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Avaleigh

SeanC · July 23, 2015

the big one of course being that Joanna and Aerys were in the same place during Tyrion's conception and that *something* happened to make Tywin want to resign.

Tywin offered to resign because Aerys humiliated Joanna in open court. That doesn't require some other explanation.

More to the point, Tywin's response to a son he hates being kidnapped was to launch a full-scale invasion of the Riverlands. The idea that the king raped his wife and he did nothing about it, and continued to serve on his council for almost a decade afterward, breaks credulity completely. Even a consensual affair seems too far for that to have happened.

I disagree that there have been zero hints on the show. I thought the explanation that Tywin gave to Tyrion about how he wanted to dump him into the sea when he was born was a clue. I also think there's a reason they waited so long to even tell us Joanna's name. I feel like they've kept a lot of the important lines from the book like "all dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes". I also think "you're no son of mine" means exactly what Tywin says it means.

All of those lines, again, refer to Tyrion's status as a dwarf, and don't need another explanation. And I find the idea of Tywin actually raising Aerys' bastard totally contrary to his character. If there was any chance Tyrion wasn't his son, he'd have seized on that.

DigitalCount · July 23, 2015

Yeah, if Tywin okay-ed the Red Wedding, I find it hard to believe he'd be so scared of kinslaying if there was even a chance that Tyrion wasn't his. The amount of pride it takes to divert a river to drown your enemies without regard for people depending on that river is also a factor.

Avaleigh · July 23, 2015

Tywin offered to resign because Aerys humiliated Joanna in open court. That doesn't require some other explanation.

More to the point, Tywin's response to a son he hates being kidnapped was to launch a full-scale invasion of the Riverlands. The idea that the king raped his wife and he did nothing about it, and continued to serve on his council for almost a decade afterward, breaks credulity completely. Even a consensual affair seems too far for that to have happened.

All of those lines, again, refer to Tyrion's status as a dwarf, and don't need another explanation. And I find the idea of Tywin actually raising Aerys' bastard totally contrary to his character. If there was any chance Tyrion wasn't his son, he'd have seized on that.

I don't think that Tywin resigned because of an insult to Joanna's breasts. I definitely think there was more to it than that.

Tyrion is Tywin's son in the eyes of the law so he's going to treat the situation as though it's an attack on his house. I feel like he'd think that it would send the wrong message to do nothing when one of his official sons has been kidnapped.

Tywin was supposedly very much influenced by his wife. I don't think it's impossible that she was able to convince him to not retaliate arguing that they'd ultimately lose. I also think that Tywin's pride would keep him from wanting anyone to know that his wife had been raped.

I think that Tywin's did ultimately retaliate against Aerys in the end and I think one of the reasons he was so vicious about everything is because of what happened. I think it helps explain the level of brutality regarding what happened with Tysha as well.

As for why Tywin didn't have Tyrion killed--I think it's because he didn't know for sure and he wasn't willing to risk being a kinslayer in addition to not wanting to confirm any rumors that Joanna had been dishonored. I also think it's possible that Joanna could have asked him to take care of all of the children including the last one and he loved her enough to do it.

SeanC · July 23, 2015

I think that Tywin's did ultimately retaliate against Aerys in the end and I think one of the reasons he was so vicious about everything is because of what happened. I think it helps explain the level of brutality regarding what happened with Tysha as well.

I really don't buy the idea that he'd have stayed with Aerys that long, and even schemed to marry his daughter into the royal family. As well, even if you accept that he just decided they couldn't go against Aerys at the time (which I don't believe; he was perfectly willing to declare war on potentially every other house in Westeros at the start of AGOT, when he invaded the Riverlands with no allies, an action that should have destroyed the Lannisters but for an incredible run of luck), that doesn't explain his dithering through the entire civil war, when if he had joined the rebellion its success would have been assured from the beginning.

As for Tysha, that's another thing that doesn't require another explanation. Tywin's formative experiences with his dad means that he responds to any challenge to the prestige of his house with brutal, overwhelming force. He's been doing that since Castamere, well before the theoretical rape of his wife. If anything, that just goes against the idea that he would ever have tolerated Aerys raping his wife.

Hecate7 · July 23, 2015

ASOIAF already has a parentage reveal that got the plot moving (Jaime + Cersei = "royal" heirs) and another that is not known to the characters but very likely to be confirmed next season after years of being accepted as almost fact (R+L=J). That's why I've never been fond of Aerys + Joanna and Littlefinger + Lysa theories myself. Both require so many contortions for little gain, and L+L in particular requires accepting that the manic pre-Moon Door Lysa, who was confessing everything else, wouldn't have been clinging to the possibility that she did give Littlefinger a son even though their first child was taken from them. I prefer the "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" options: if Tyrion becomes a dragonrider he'll do it because he has the wits, desire and book knowledge to experiment with dragontaming, and Robin is the hardiest of Jon Arryn's sickly offspring.

Personally, I believe that Littlefinger was smart enough and Lysa delusional enough that he was able to manipulate her without taking the unnecessary risk of a physical affair, which could have gotten him killed if it had been discovered and given him nothing since he wasn't attracted to her. Lysa talks about silence and whisperings and screaming now that they're going to be married: I never had the impression that there had been an affair they'd been hiding Jaime/Cersei style, but that Lysa had only gotten sweet words but no sex from Littlefinger.

You know what could get him killed? Murdering Jon Arryn. But he wasn't afraid to do that, because he didn't plan on getting caught. And he didn't get caught. yet. You know what else is risky? Poisoning Joffrey, which is regicide. But he did it. Not only that but he has several accomplices who KNOW he did it. He killed one of them, but two are still at large: Olenna, and Sansa. And of course now Margaery knows, too.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. It is not possible to overestimate how manipulative Baelish is, or how many secrets he's sitting on. He got quite a bit out of Lyssa Arryn before he finally manipulated her into murdering her husband. She did it so they could be married. That doesn't mean she wasn't already meeting Baelish secretly. If Jaime and Cersei can do it right under Robert's nose, Baelish and Lyssa can manage it discreetly. Where there's a will there's a way, and Baelish had every reason to want to feed Lyssa's infatuation with him.

And this was MUCH less dangerous, btw, than his other activities. Arryn wouldn't accuse him unless he caught him in flagrante delicto. There's no actual law against sleeping with someone else's wife per se, although I'm pretty sure there's a law against the wife straying. Jon Arryn would have had the right to challenge him to a duel but being an old man he probably wouldn't have. Baelish could probably beat Arryn, and if not, he could name a champion who could beat Arryn's champion. Arryn was not Baelish's liege lord. It's not like diddling the Queen. The hand's wife is just another lord's wife. Awkward, but not treason.

Personally I like the irony of Arryn hot on the trail of Cersei's royal bastards while unaware of the bastard under his own roof. If Robin WERE Baelish's, it would also explain why Lyssa would think Arryn would be careless with the boy's safety or hand him over to murderers.

plurie · July 23, 2015

Arryn was not Baelish's liege lord.

Yes, he was. The Fingers owe allegiance to Arryn, just like the Umbers owe allegiance to Winterfell.

Avaleigh · July 23, 2015

I'm curious if there's a law against sleeping with the wife of your liege lord or if it just falls under bad taste and terrible manners.

screamin · July 23, 2015

You know what could get him killed? Murdering Jon Arryn. But he wasn't afraid to do that, because he didn't plan on getting caught. And he didn't get caught. yet. You know what else is risky? Poisoning Joffrey, which is regicide. But he did it. Not only that but he has several accomplices who KNOW he did it. He killed one of them, but two are still at large: Olenna, and Sansa. And of course now Margaery knows, too.

And you know who actually carried out those murders? Someone else. Every time. LF always made sure he had "clean hands" and plausible deniability, with someone else at the scene actually doing the job and someone to take the fall (not necessarily the same person). In those murders, he was always the one taking the least risk. You can't say the same for knocking up Lysa...it's not something you can do by proxy and be miles away with an alibi at the time.

And this was MUCH less dangerous, btw, than his other activities....Arryn was not Baelish's liege lord. It's not like diddling the Queen. The hand's wife is just another lord's wife. Awkward, but not treason.

As Plurie pointed out, Jon Arryn IS in fact LF's liege lord. The Fingers belong to the Vale. He worked in Gulltown as his direct subordinate for years. Even when he moved to KL (at Jon Arryn's behest) he still owed fealty to Arryn first. When Ned took his sworn men to KL, there was never any question that they were HIS sworn men first. And your liege lord has a wide latitude in deciding what justice to mete out to his subjects.

As for it NOT being a crime or treason to commit adultery with your liege lord's wife - citation, please? The Starks and Arryns were kings in their own countries before the Targaryens subjugated them. They still sit in thrones when they judge their subjects, and are free to judge their crimes and punishments without oversight. I REALLY doubt that the advent of some dragonriders made them all decide that adultery with their wives should be downgraded from treason to a pecadillo they must ignore. So yeah, sleeping with your liege lord's wife IS hella dangerous.

Jon Arryn would have had the right to challenge him to a duel but being an old man he probably wouldn't have. Baelish could probably beat Arryn, and if not, he could name a champion who could beat Arryn's champion.

You're forgetting that as LF's liege lord, all the money and the power that LF gained derives from Arryn's sponsorship. LF can't just take all that money and hire himself a champion to beat Arryn's champion. Firstly, his funds could be frozen until their rightful ownership was determined. Secondly, if LF were arrested as a suspect in cuckolding his liege lord, it wouldn't be just Arryn interested in getting him killed. It would be all Arryn's other subjects - who'd be willing to kneel and kiss their beloved lord's son distiguished Arryn ass, but would be DAMNED if they'd risk kneeling to kiss some upjumped Sheepshit Island's bastard offspring masquerading as a highborn Arryn. It would be also be all of Jon Arryn's friends - including King Robert himself. Who are LF's friends, who'd be willing to champion him in the face of the disapproval of the king?

LF takes risks...but he takes them carefully planned, for good reasons, and always making sure to minimize the risk to himself personally. Knocking Lysa up doesn't fit that category. By doing that, he risks himself personally. He also risks Lysa's life - not that he actually CARES about her, but she was his surest source of power for many years and his endgame with her was to become her second husband and get his hands on the Vale through her. If Lysa gets pregnant by LF and has a child wildly unlike Jon Arryn (a factor LF would have no control over) Lysa might be put to death as an adulterer. She might bravely keep her mouth shut unto death on who her partner was, but she'd still die and put an end to LF's rapid advancement and chance at getting the Vale.

IMO, LF risks much and gains NOTHING by knocking up Lysa adulterously. That would be out of character for him. We've seen that he's never taken any deep interest in having a child of his own in a hurry...so he wouldn't risk his big plans for himself out of a wild desire for immediate posterity. We've seen that he doesn't care for Lysa, so he has no motivation for having lots of sex with her. Yes, his plans require her continued infatuation, but if LF can't keep her yearning for him with a lot of sweet words and some safely nonreproductive brief activity once in a very long while, then he's not the scheming LF we know.

That's besides the fact that Lysa pretty much denied having given LF a son with her dying breath ("I WOULD HAVE given you a son, but they murdered him...") and also the only thing against Arryn's paternity of Robin is that a relative has "the look of" a young Jon Arryn and has blue eyes and blond hair and a stupendous physique and Robin has brown hair and eyes we don't know what color of (yes, the show has his eyes as brown, but the show has no Harry and the show had Shireen Baratheon without black hair), and is a scrawny weakling, so we don't know whether the point of resemblance between Harry and Jon are the eyes (which Robin could also have), or the features, or the physique, or the hair...I'd say proof for LF's paternity is pretty thin on the ground.

Edited July 23, 2015 by screamin

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