Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[AshleyN]

Nymeria and her pack has always seemed particularly fitting for Ramsay's death in the books. They're not in the show, so I suppose I'll have to dream up some other scenario there. Possibly involving Jon Snow and some sort of Battle of the Bastards. Of course other than Tywin, which was perfect, it's not like we get a lot of truly karmic deaths in this series anyway, so it's all just fantasy. I am inclined to think that Martin has something special planned for Ramsay's death though.

 

Sometimes I get a little worried at how bloodthirsty this series makes me, lol.

Edited July 11, 2015 by AshleyN

[BlackberryJam]

Why give Ramsay a death like that? I'd prefer it if he were killed in battle by a random squire with no name, no history, no story, who just gets in a lucky stab. That would be fitting. 

 

Or wait...he chokes to death on his soup.

 

Wait wait, I like this better. He tries to shove Walda down the stairs but doesn't have the strength and topples over himself.

Edited July 11, 2015 by BlackberryJam

[Avaleigh]

I'm cool with Ramsay being castrated and choking to death on his own genitals but since that isn't going to happen---

 

I like the idea of Sansa and Theon shutting Ramsay into the kennels and letting the dogs have at him. 

 

A third option would be Theon cutting Ramsay's throat while shaving him.

 

I like the idea of Ghost killing Ramsay too under the right circumstances.

[Oscirus]

I think Ramsey's going to wind up somehow getting betrayed by his father and Roose will do something brutal to him. From the way the show portrays it, Roose is the real villain, Ramsey is just a distraction.

 

Sorry I'm late on this point.

 

But to address Ramsey's ability to sneak into Stannis's camp and do so much damge, we have to remember at that point in the story, Stannis's men were dying/tired/disgruntled. I can't imagine that it would be that hard to sneak around people in that condition.

[AshleyN]

Why give Ramsay a death like that? I'd prefer it if he were killed in battle by a random squire with no name, no history, no story, who just gets in a lucky stab. That would be fitting. 

 

Or wait...he chokes to death on his soup.

 

Wait wait, I like this better. He tries to shove Walda down the stairs but doesn't have the strength and topples over himself.

Heh, I saw one suggestion that he gets stepped on by Wun Wun,who just keeps going like nothing happened and that's the end of it. Which would be pretty hilarious I admit.

Edited July 12, 2015 by AshleyN

[Avaleigh]

Heh, I saw one suggestion that he gets stepped on by Wun Wun,who just keeps going like nothing happened and that's the end of it. Which would be pretty hilarious I admit.

The deranged hobbit gets crushed by a giant? I like it. 

Edited July 12, 2015 by Avaleigh

[benteen]

I'm cool with Ramsay being castrated and choking to death on his own genitals but since that isn't going to happen---

 

I like the idea of Sansa and Theon shutting Ramsay into the kennels and letting the dogs have at him. 

 

A third option would be Theon cutting Ramsay's throat while shaving him.

 

I like the idea of Ghost killing Ramsay too under the right circumstances.

 

Castration would be fitting for Ramsay but he really needs to suffer in the books what Lady Hornwood suffered.

 

Castration with a rusty knife has always been my choice for Walder Frey.  He's 90 years old but not being able to reproduce would be the worst punishment for him.

[FemmyV]

I'd like to see Ramsey eaten by his own dogs.

[Advance35]

I think Ramsey's going to wind up somehow getting betrayed by his father and Roose will do something brutal to him. From the way the show portrays it, Roose is the real villain, Ramsey is just a distraction.

 

I could see this.  Book or show the only person Ramsay has any respect/fear for/towards is Roose.   But I could also see the opposite.  I could see Ramsay killing Roose which would lead to his own demise.   Ramsay isn't the complete beast he is in the books but even in the show (he comes off as more cunning) Roose is clearly the brains of the Bolton outfit.   Without Roose, Ramsay is like the Lannisters without Tywin.   

 

Though I actually wouldn't be surprised if LF helps Ramsay.   Propping Ramsay up as a villain for all other factions to direct their enimity too.   I think that's what he was doing with Cersei and what he'll eventually do with the Vale Lords.

 

But to address Ramsey's ability to sneak into Stannis's camp and do so much damge, we have to remember at that point in the story, Stannis's men were dying/tired/disgruntled. I can't imagine that it would be that hard to sneak around people in that condition.

 

I found what Ramsay was able to pull off very believable.  I don't even allow myself to get drawn into that Meme anymore.

 

And I'm calling it now, if Sansa goes North to Jon Snow, she's dead.   There is NO way she survives going further North.  She may live to see/hear of Ramsay's end but it'll be just in time for her to die courtesy of White Walkers/Others.  And an imperilled maiden like Sansa, alone (except for Theon/Reek) with all of those CELIBATE Men of the NW????????  Ya, that will go well.

[Chris24601]

Depends on how long Sansa stays North though. If she meets up with Brie and Pod and only goes to the Wall long enough to meet up with Jon Snow/Targaryan and his retinue (Davos, Red Witch, Tormund and the Wildlings) who are headed back South to retake Winterfell she'll be fine.

 

Certain death via the Walkers doesn't arrive until the Wall falls and something like that feels like an Episode 9 event to me (maybe Episode 8 in honor of this year's Hardhome) which would correspond to the end of WoW.

 

Basically, I think WoW/season 6 is the one where all but the most important plotlines are going to get resolved and players shifted pretty close to their end states because at the end, not only has Winter come, but the Long Night will fall.

 

I could see book Sansa ending up in a similar position pretty easily too. She doesn't know Bran and RIckon are still alive and Arya is presumed dead so Jon is the only still living family she has left. If something goes badly in the Vale and she needs to flee, North to her half-brother (by then revealed to be cousin) is about the ONLY place left for her to go. She still would only need to stay in the extreme North long enough to join up with Jon, who will probably be headed back southward anyway.

 

Littlefinger then follows her to the North (just as show Littlefinger is getting ready to use the Vale forces in the North) and things are set up either for a conflict between Jon's forces and Littlefinger's forces that ends Littlefinger's story right there -or- Littlefinger sees enough magic weirdness going on that he decides backing Jon is the best avenue to advance himself and the Vale forces unite with the Wildlings in retaking Winterfell and he survives to scheme for power (leverage the Vale forces for a prominant position in Jon's inner circle) and opportunity (such as wooing back Lady Sansa so he can be Lord of the North via marriage) even as the world freezes.

[Advance35]

I just think that's a little to pact for what I'm used too.   Especially from this story.

 

I'm finding it harder and harder to predict where Sansa will go from here (though I have know doubt D&D do).   Gut feeling say's the North is a VERY bad idea for her.   Even if she meets up with a ressurected Jon and his band of Heroes and they take the time to wipe out the Boltons and install Sansa as Warden of the North, she stay's in  Winterfell it's the same result isn't it? 

 

Basically, I think WoW/season 6 is the one where all but the most important plotlines are going to get resolved and players shifted pretty close to their end states because at the end, not only has Winter come, but the Long Night will fall.

 

I'm not sure if this is possible with the casting calls for the speculated Greyjoys AND House Tarly.  Not to mention Dorne will be back.   Bran get's to make up for loss screentime, Arya's boring as hell adventures, Dany's boring as hell adventures, Tyrions misadventure.   I think convergence is a very tall order at this point.

[Hecate7]

Are we sure valonqar isn't a gender neutral term? Aemon realizes that when it comes to the Prince that was Promised prophecy so could it apply to this one as well? 

 

I'm sure old Valyrian has a different word for sister, and she'd have used it if that's what it meant.

[nksarmi]

I just think that's a little to pact for what I'm used too.   Especially from this story.

 

I'm finding it harder and harder to predict where Sansa will go from here (though I have know doubt D&D do).   Gut feeling say's the North is a VERY bad idea for her.   Even if she meets up with a ressurected Jon and his band of Heroes and they take the time to wipe out the Boltons and install Sansa as Warden of the North, she stay's in  Winterfell it's the same result isn't it? 

 

 

I'm not sure if this is possible with the casting calls for the speculated Greyjoys AND House Tarly.  Not to mention Dorne will be back.   Bran get's to make up for loss screentime, Arya's boring as hell adventures, Dany's boring as hell adventures, Tyrions misadventure.   I think convergence is a very tall order at this point.

If they only have seven seasons - convergence is a must by the end of season six.  I wonder when they will know - or if they already do know - if it's going to be seven seasons or eight.

 

GRRM has commented that he might need eight books, but he has also said books six is where he starts to bring everyone back together (so now it's easier to start killing people off - like it was hard before lol!).

[Avaleigh]

I'm sure old Valyrian has a different word for sister, and she'd have used it if that's what it meant.

I bet there's a word for sibling too if they'd deliberately wanted to make that part of it more mysterious. I'll be annoyed if it turns out to be a little sister. I can deal with Arya maybe dressed up as some male person who qualifies as being a little brother but it won't be my preference if it turns out to be some female character like Brienne who chokes Cersei to death. It'll feel like a cheat. 

 

Depends on how long Sansa stays North though. If she meets up with Brie and Pod and only goes to the Wall long enough to meet up with Jon Snow/Targaryan and his retinue (Davos, Red Witch, Tormund and the Wildlings) who are headed back South to retake Winterfell she'll be fine.

 

Certain death via the Walkers doesn't arrive until the Wall falls and something like that feels like an Episode 9 event to me (maybe Episode 8 in honor of this year's Hardhome) which would correspond to the end of WoW.

 

Basically, I think WoW/season 6 is the one where all but the most important plotlines are going to get resolved and players shifted pretty close to their end states because at the end, not only has Winter come, but the Long Night will fall.

 

I could see book Sansa ending up in a similar position pretty easily too. She doesn't know Bran and RIckon are still alive and Arya is presumed dead so Jon is the only still living family she has left. If something goes badly in the Vale and she needs to flee, North to her half-brother (by then revealed to be cousin) is about the ONLY place left for her to go. She still would only need to stay in the extreme North long enough to join up with Jon, who will probably be headed back southward anyway.

 

Littlefinger then follows her to the North (just as show Littlefinger is getting ready to use the Vale forces in the North) and things are set up either for a conflict between Jon's forces and Littlefinger's forces that ends Littlefinger's story right there -or- Littlefinger sees enough magic weirdness going on that he decides backing Jon is the best avenue to advance himself and the Vale forces unite with the Wildlings in retaking Winterfell and he survives to scheme for power (leverage the Vale forces for a prominant position in Jon's inner circle) and opportunity (such as wooing back Lady Sansa so he can be Lord of the North via marriage) even as the world freezes.

I'm torn about how Littlefinger fits in to Jon and Sansa possibly reconnecting at the Wall or at Winterfell but another part of your post got me thinking.

 

It's something I forget about from time to time that it's been heavily set up that the Wall will fall and I agree that it makes sense for this to be an episode 9 event. I'm just not sure if it'll happen in season six if two more seasons are going to follow. I think sometime in season 7 makes sense if there's going to be one more. Once the threat of the White Walkers takes over the story I feel like we should definitely be in the home stretch where there's a season or slightly less of dealing with the second long night.

 

If the Wall falls then it makes sense that most everyone who is at the Wall will be killed when that happens, right? So to me that suggests that all of the important people that I initially thought would end up at the Wall for the big fight somehow are actually going to end up at Winterfell. I see Jon ending up back at Winterfell hopefully at the end of next season or at least maybe we're given an indication that Winterfell is where he's headed once he's resurrected. It seems likely to me that he'll head to the Wall with Melisandre. (I'd like to throw Edd in there too but I know that's wishful thinking.) 

 

At first I thought that Sansa, Brienne, Theon, Pod, etc. would end up at the Wall but I'm thinking it'll be Winterfell now. If Sansa and Theon come upon Brienne and Pod first with Brienne again making it clear that she's going to do everything in her power to protect Sansa and be her shield, I think that Sansa will insist to Littlefinger that Brienne is on their side and it will force Littlefinger into allowing Brienne to stick around until he can figure out how it'll be best to get rid of her. 

 

The only thing I can't square with Brienne connecting with Sansa on the show again this early on is how she'd ever end up leaving Sansa's side again to get involved with/possibly help rescue Jaime. 

 

If the proposed Lannister/Frey wedding does happen next season does it make sense for the Boltons to attend? Would they risk bringing Sansa?  Is the wedding what could bring Brienne and Jaime into contact again? 

 

My thoughts about all of this are jumbled and one of the main reasons for this is because I can't decide how long the Boltons are going to remain in the picture and whether or not Littlefinger will make it back north before Ramsay and/or Roose have already been killed.  

Edited July 13, 2015 by Avaleigh

[DigitalCount]

I'm sure old Valyrian has a different word for sister, and she'd have used it if that's what it meant.

At one time I knew what the word was, but yes, I can confirm that there is a separate term for little sister.

[kcbuckeye2]

I really want Ramsey to get hunted and eaten by Ayra's feral Direwolf - another reason I'm disappointed wolf dreams aren't on the show!

 

I may be remembering this wrong, since it has been so long since I read the books, but weren't Arya's wolf dreams most common once she lost her sight?  Since the show ended with her cliffhanger being that she is blind, couldn't they make the wolf dreams a part of her story next season? 

[mac123x]

I may be remembering this wrong, since it has been so long since I read the books, but weren't Arya's wolf dreams most common once she lost her sight?  Since the show ended with her cliffhanger being that she is blind, couldn't they make the wolf dreams a part of her story next season? 

 

She had wolf dreams quite frequently before she was blind.  E.g., she dreamed of Nymeria pulling her mother's body out of the river in ASOS.  After she became Blind Beth, she started warging stray cats.

[MadMouse]

I'm sure old Valyrian has a different word for sister, and she'd have used it if that's what it meant.

 

Did Martin comment on it? Not doubting you but having a character misinterpret a prophecy is something Martin does all the time.

Edited July 13, 2015 by MadMouse

[Avaleigh]

Did Martin comment on it? Not doubting you but having a character misinterpret a prophecy is something Martin does all the time.

There's little doubt in my mind that Cersei will misinterpret the prophecy. I don't think she'll be wrong about the gender though.

[BlackberryJam]

There's little doubt in my mind that Cersei will misinterpret the prophecy. I don't think she'll be wrong about the gender though.

 

Okay...Cersei is the one who defines the word valonqar in the books. She asks Maggy what a valonqar is, but Maggy doesn't answer. Cersei later tells Taena that she asked her Septa (Saranella) what a valonqar is and that it means little brother in High Valyrian. So to accept that valonqar means "little brother" we are relying on Cersei, who is a traditionally unreliable narrator, and trusting that she was telling Taena the truth, and that the septa was correct.

 

I think Martin has plenty of wiggle room there.

 

I really just think the whole prophecy thing is a retcon by Martin to try to give Cersei depth and motive.

[Avaleigh]

Okay...Cersei is the one who defines the word valonqar in the books. She asks Maggy what a valonqar is, but Maggy doesn't answer. Cersei later tells Taena that she asked her Septa (Saranella) what a valonqar is and that it means little brother in High Valyrian. So to accept that valonqar means "little brother" we are relying on Cersei, who is a traditionally unreliable narrator, and trusting that she was telling Taena the truth, and that the septa was correct.

 

I think Martin has plenty of wiggle room there.

 

I really just think the whole prophecy thing is a retcon by Martin to try to give Cersei depth and motive.

I agree that the prophecy is a retcon definitely. 

 

I'm inclined to take the Septa's word on it though. I guess I don't see the point in making the gender part a mystery. Agreed though that Martin has plenty of wiggle room if he decides he wants Cersei's killer to be some woman or some person's eldest son. 

[Hecate7]

There are a lot of people who desperately want it to be Arya who dispatches Cersei, but I don't think that's very interesting. There are at least a dozen more interesting ways for that prophecy to play out.

[DigitalCount]

There's little doubt in my mind that Cersei will misinterpret the prophecy. I don't think she'll be wrong about the gender though.

This is part of the reason I can't accept Jaime as the killer and why I think it has to be Tommen. Especially with the Taena conversation, GRRM goes to such lengths to make sure that Cersei gets the information in bits rather than at the same time, and the reader has it similarly parceled out, so both Cersei and the reader forget the context.

The mistake it seems most in character for Cersei to make is one of narcissism. As I alluded earlier, you'll note that Cersei is asking a question about whether or not she'll have children. She gets a bizarre response, and it's only much later (after she murders Melara?) that she finds out what the word valonqar means. So her thought process becomes fear at being killed by a monster, getting killed by this horrible thing called a valonqar, what does valonqar even mean, if I ask someone I'm talking about it which means I killed my best friend for no reason, maybe I'll just ask one little question, that won't hurt, wait, valonqar means little brother?

I HAVE ONE OF THOSE! Plus, he's already a monster! He killed my mother, now he's going to kill me too? Not if I kill him first!

And of course, by this time she's forgotten that she originally asked about kids she was going to have, and thus the answer has nothing to do with her own brothers. It's the younger brother from among her kids.

Now, Cersei can be forgiven for making this sort of mistake without something hugely contrived happening. She's a born narcissist. Her love for everything that she actually loves is just self-love. Her kids, Jaime, the parts of Tywin she thinks she has. Given this it is no surprise that she defines valonqar relative to herself, because the title of the series is A Song of Gold and Wine, amirite? But for the reader, GRRM has to cheat a bit. Most people aren't as narcissistic as Cersei. So what does he do? He plops a random aside in the middle of Maggy's response. I like to imagine Maggy taking an overdramatic drink of water in between like Eric Cantona. Because if you read the question and answer like an actor, without the stage directions or random Poirot speak, it actually becomes quite obvious that she's referring to Tommen.

Add in the emphasis on wights seeking out people they knew in life to kill (choke the life out of!) them, and you have a perfect recipe for Cersei's death.

[Chris24601]

Because if you read the question and answer like an actor, without the stage directions or random Poirot speak, it actually becomes quite obvious that she's referring to Tommen. Add in the emphasis on wights seeking out people they knew in life to kill (choke the life out of!) them, and you have a perfect recipe for Cersei's death.

Which would also imply that winter makes it as far south as King's Landing, which bears relation to this bit I quote below...

 

Gut feeling say's the North is a VERY bad idea for her.   Even if she meets up with a ressurected Jon and his band of Heroes and they take the time to wipe out the Boltons and install Sansa as Warden of the North, she stay's in  Winterfell it's the same result isn't it? 

Here's the thing about Winterfell. It hasn't come up quite so much in the show as the books, but its got hot springs (i.e. the antithesis of the cold). The books describe that the place is heated by the boiling water running through pipes in the walls and that it even has greenhouses heated by the hot springs where they can grow food during the winter instead of having to survive solely on what has been stored up. Now throw in the fact that they also have one of the largest Godswoods (three acres warmed by the hot springs) around and that we've already seen wights explode into fragments of bone when they enter an area holy to the Children of the Forest.

 

That combination of factors leads me to believe that Winterfell might be safest place in all of Westeros from the Walkers and their wights. I've even heard speculation that because it was built by the same guy who put up the Wall, it might have specific enchantments against the Walkers and wights throughout.

 

If the spec about wight Tommen killing Cersei holds and the Walkers make it all the way to King's Landing, then Winterfell (bypassed because of its magical protections) might be the one outpost of civilizaiton left on Westeros and the ONLY people safe are those who make it into its walls before winter comes. It then becomes the base from which the heroes must rally to defeat the Walkers (while Sansa stays safely at Winterfell to manage the other survivors there).

 

Heck, we don't even know for sure how many people even survived the last Long Night and how severe this one will be. The last happened 8000 years ago so populations have had a lot of time to recover, but it could have been a near extinction level event (>99% of the population) and it could be this time as well. It would be quite ironic if, of all the people in Westeros, it ends up being only the few thousand Wildlings that Jon saved at Hardhome and the few others who joined his cause and took shelter in Winterfell under Sansa's care that actually survive through the winter to the next spring.

[Avaleigh]

That combination of factors leads me to believe that Winterfell might be safest place in all of Westeros from the Walkers and their wights. I've even heard speculation that because it was built by the same guy who put up the Wall, it might have specific enchantments against the Walkers and wights throughout.

 

If the spec about wight Tommen killing Cersei holds and the Walkers make it all the way to King's Landing, then Winterfell (bypassed because of its magical protections) might be the one outpost of civilizaiton left on Westeros and the ONLY people safe are those who make it into its walls before winter comes. It then becomes the base from which the heroes must rally to defeat the Walkers (while Sansa stays safely at Winterfell to manage the other survivors there).

Am I wrong in thinking that Storm's End is protected by magic too? I even want to say that Brandon the Builder was associated with Storm's End even if he isn't said to have actually built it. I just remember something coming up when Davos had to sneak Mel in on that boat and I swear she implied that they needed to go around some magic.

 

I agree with you though that it seems like Winterfell is going to be the best place to be when shit with the WW finally goes down. 

[nksarmi]

Is Storm's End the one where obsidian grows so freely?  Because if it isn't protected by magic, it most likely is the one place in all of Westerous with enough natural defenses that it might not need magic to protect it.

 

I never thought about the Walkers breeching the Wall and how far South winter would go.  I always thought this would end in Winterfell and in the North.  Now that you guys have me thinking this way, I really do hope wights make it all the way to KL and we get to see the High Sparrow and Faith Militant pee their pants.  Because you know what really doesn't matter when an army of the undead are coming?  If some dude was shagging another dude! 

 

Anyway, if the Wall does fall, I get the feeling no one in this story knows enough about magic or anything else to rebuild it - so they have to kill all the Others right?  Or at least find a way to put them back to sleep?  I really hope GRRM has planned out his ending very well - some writers don't do that because they want to write and let the story take a life of it's own and go in whatever direction feels right.  But to me, this story needs a well planned out ending with at least a good outline on how to get there. 

[SeanC]

Okay...Cersei is the one who defines the word valonqar in the books. She asks Maggy what a valonqar is, but Maggy doesn't answer. Cersei later tells Taena that she asked her Septa (Saranella) what a valonqar is and that it means little brother in High Valyrian. So to accept that valonqar means "little brother" we are relying on Cersei, who is a traditionally unreliable narrator, and trusting that she was telling Taena the truth, and that the septa was correct.

I think Martin has plenty of wiggle room there.

I really just think the whole prophecy thing is a retcon by Martin to try to give Cersei depth and motive.

Cersei's own thoughts give no indication she's lying. And having the whole thing be the result of the septa's error completely removed Cersei's own culpability, as she was acting in "good faith" on the information provided.

The tragedy is that the prophecy is accurate, but Cersei's own extant biases distort her interpretation of the words (both her willingness to villainize the infant Tyrion and her unwillingness to suspect Jaime).

As far as when the prophecy occurred to GRRM, there is a particular point in ACOK where Cersei's behaviour makes much more sense if she's acting out of concern motivated by it.

Edited July 14, 2015 by SeanC

[nksarmi]

Cersei's own thoughts give no indication she's lying. And having the whole thing be the result of the septa's error completely removed Cersei's own culpability, as she was acting in "good faith" on the information provided.

The tragedy is that the prophecy is accurate, but Cersei's own extant biases distort her interpretation of the words (both her willingness to villainize the infant Tyrion and her unwillingness to suspect Jaime).

As far as when the prophecy occurred to GRRM, there is a particular point in ACOK where Cersei's behaviour makes much more sense if she's acting out of concern motivated by it.

 

I think the prophesy looks more contrived in the series (and they have left the little brother part out) because there are times when Cersei's hate for Tyrion seems skitzo to say the least.  There are times when Cersei and Tyrion seem to understand each other and there seems to be some sort of relationship there, then the show takes Cersei back to the point of hate and content her book counterpart is supposed to be at and it doesn't always make sense or flow well.  I think this is especially evident during the time when Tyrion is serving as Hand and they are trying to lighten Cersei up a bit.  She really does look skitzo or at least bi-polar as she goes back and forth between recognizing that Tyrion is right about Geoffrey to accusing him of murder.  It's like the writers sacrificed the right beats for Cersei and Tyrion just to let Lena and Peter have some nice scenes together. 

 

If they had let Cersei's hate of Tyrion on the show parallel fully the way Cersei always views him in the books, I think it would make her motivation of assuming he is going to kill her someday make sense.  Especially the part where she so mistakes the threat he threw at her to mean that he would kill her children even when he clearly loves Tommen and Myrcella - only Cersei' obsession with the prophesy would cause her to be so irrational in her suspicion of Tyrion in my opinion.

[Avaleigh]

In the books it makes little sense to me why Cersei didn't take other measures to ensure that the prophecy doesn't come true but it seems like it isn't something that's on her mind until the fourth book. 

 

Why didn't Tyrion get poisoned or meet with an accident long ago? She waits until the Blackwater to make an attempt?

 

Which book is it that we learn Jaime is the younger twin?  I think it's either Storm or Feast but I'm not sure. If it's Feast then that's even more of an indication that this wasn't originally planned. I also think it's odd borderline unbelievable that she didn't tell Jaime about it when they were younger to explain her concerns about Tyrion. 

 

Why wouldn't Cersei try to have more than three children? If nothing else there should have been a mention of how she can't have any more and how this gives her even more reason to think that the prophecy is true. Why not have Joffrey covered in a golden shroud and have Cersei freak out and rip it off saying that she told the Septas or Sisters or whoever attends the body that she'd specifically requested that he not be covered with a shroud. 

Is Storm's End the one where obsidian grows so freely?  Because if it isn't protected by magic, it most likely is the one place in all of Westerous with enough natural defenses that it might not need magic to protect it.

 

I never thought about the Walkers breeching the Wall and how far South winter would go.  I always thought this would end in Winterfell and in the North.  Now that you guys have me thinking this way, I really do hope wights make it all the way to KL and we get to see the High Sparrow and Faith Militant pee their pants.  Because you know what really doesn't matter when an army of the undead are coming?  If some dude was shagging another dude! 

 

Anyway, if the Wall does fall, I get the feeling no one in this story knows enough about magic or anything else to rebuild it - so they have to kill all the Others right?  Or at least find a way to put them back to sleep?  I really hope GRRM has planned out his ending very well - some writers don't do that because they want to write and let the story take a life of it's own and go in whatever direction feels right.  But to me, this story needs a well planned out ending with at least a good outline on how to get there. 

I think Dragonstone is where most of the obsidian is supposed to be. 

[mac123x]

Which book is it that we learn Jaime is the younger twin?  I think it's either Storm or Feast but I'm not sure.

 

Pretty sure it was in Game of Thrones: when Ned confronts her about the Twincest, she describes how they've always been together ever since Jaime was clutching her heel as he was born (implying she came first).  Jaime being the valonqar could still be a retcon built on a throw-away line, but Cercei has always been the elder twin.

[ElizaD]

Which book is it that we learn Jaime is the younger twin?  I think it's either Storm or Feast but I'm not sure. If it's Feast then that's even more of an indication that this wasn't originally planned. I also think it's odd borderline unbelievable that she didn't tell Jaime about it when they were younger to explain her concerns about Tyrion.

 

Cersei to Ned: "We shared a womb together. He came into this world holding my foot, our old maester said." My favorite theory is that GRRM came up with the prophecy after he cut the five-year gap to explain why Cersei lost it and made things fall apart so fast, in which case it would be a retcon (I agree that there are a ton of places where GRRM could have hinted at the prophecy before Cersei reveals it in AFFC) but one that doesn't conflict with the original plan (I believe Jaime kills Cersei).

 

I can't remember ever thinking of the prophecy when reading the Cersei parts of ACOK. Is there something in the scenes with Tyrion or Sansa (a potential queen)?

[Avaleigh]

Cersei to Ned: "We shared a womb together. He came into this world holding my foot, our old maester said." My favorite theory is that GRRM came up with the prophecy after he cut the five-year gap to explain why Cersei lost it and made things fall apart so fast, in which case it would be a retcon (I agree that there are a ton of places where GRRM could have hinted at the prophecy before Cersei reveals it in AFFC) but one that doesn't conflict with the original plan (I believe Jaime kills Cersei).

 

I can't remember ever thinking of the prophecy when reading the Cersei parts of ACOK. Is there something in the scenes with Tyrion or Sansa (a potential queen)?

Thanks for the quote, Eliza. I was thinking that the foot line was a memory of Cersei's rather than a quote to Ned. 

 

I can't recall anything in ACoK to indicate that Cersei had the prophecy on her mind. 

[MadMouse]

Is Storm's End the one where obsidian grows so freely?  Because if it isn't protected by magic, it most likely is the one place in all of Westerous with enough natural defenses that it might not need magic to protect it.

 

I never thought about the Walkers breeching the Wall and how far South winter would go.  I always thought this would end in Winterfell and in the North.  Now that you guys have me thinking this way, I really do hope wights make it all the way to KL and we get to see the High Sparrow and Faith Militant pee their pants.  Because you know what really doesn't matter when an army of the undead are coming?  If some dude was shagging another dude! 

 

Anyway, if the Wall does fall, I get the feeling no one in this story knows enough about magic or anything else to rebuild it - so they have to kill all the Others right?  Or at least find a way to put them back to sleep?  I really hope GRRM has planned out his ending very well - some writers don't do that because they want to write and let the story take a life of it's own and go in whatever direction feels right.  But to me, this story needs a well planned out ending with at least a good outline on how to get there. 

 

Its actually Dragonstone that has the Obsidian. Stannis commands Rolland Storm to start mining it. 

 

About Wintefell remember in Theon's chapters the winter storms themselves seem to be coming from Winterfell itself not the north towards the Wall.

Edited July 14, 2015 by MadMouse

[nksarmi]

Well it could be a retcon, but I could also buy that Cersei (because she is Cersei after all) decided that the fortune teller was a con artist and nothing bad would happen until Geoffrey died.  Because then she started irrationally making Tyrion's sending of Myrcella away (something that was partially done to keep her safe and partially done for very good political reasons) and Geoffrey's death part of the monster taking away all she holds dear.  Then she remembers how many bastards Robert had and her effort not to have any of his kids and there's Margaery becoming queen and it starts her spiral into madness.

 

But honestly I have a harder time making the YMB(Q) work than figuring out which "little brother" could kill Cersei.  I mean, I literally don't care if she's right and it is Tyrion or if it's Jamie or Tommen - because to me, any of those make sense and work.  The YMB(Q) that comes along and takes away all she holds dear?  I still can't figure out who the hell fits that description and the show isn't helping me out in that regards.

 

I mean "Queen you shall be...until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear" - I mean if we limit the meaning of the word queen to "married to the king" when in a way, Cersei cast herself down when she plotted Robert B's death.  Because from the moment Geoffrey was crowned, she became the Queen Mother - though I do think she operated as reagent for awhile (am I wrong?).  So I suppose we could delay that to as soon as Geoffrey married - she was no longer queen, but that would mean Margaery is the YMB(Q).

 

Margaery married Geoffrey and Tommen and it was on her behalf that Geoffrey was killed.  Now that Margaery is in prison and Tommen is too young in the books and too incompetent in the show to do anything to free her, she could be indirectly responsible for Tommen's death as well.  However, there is no way to connect her to Myrcella's death in the show so does the YMB(Q) have to be tied to the death of Cersei's children?  If not, I definitely think Margaery has already fulfilled this part of the prophesy but with Cersei's help ironically (since no one would have replaced Cersei if she was still married to a living Robert B).  Also, we are assuming that taking away Cersei's children is part of taking away all she holds dear, but I'm not sure that is the Cersei of the books no matter how much D&D say it is.  I think taking away Cersei's status as queen and member of the richest/most powerful house in Westerous is enough to qualify as "all she holds dear."  If Margaery survives and has her dignity reinstated and the Tywells come out as the ruling family over the Lannisters - I'd say the dead is done on the YMB(Q).

 

I think the death of her children and Cersei's death is a totally different issue.  Since the "when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands....." part comes in regards to her children, I can totally see why people think its Tommen and it actually implies that Cersei will have a TON of loss before that happens so that seems to fit in with the Others/Winter making it to King's Landing.  I mean, the show has presumably killed Myrcella but Cersei still has Tommen and she has a potential instrument for revenge.  I think Cersei will only drown in her tears once Tommen and Jamie are dead, the Lannister house has fallen, and she has no power to exercise over anyone.

Its actually Dragonstone that has the Obsidian. Stannis commands Rolland Storm to start mining it. 

 

About Wintefell remember in Theon's chapters the winter storms themselves seem to be coming from Winterfell itself not the north towards the Wall.

I'd be headed to Dragonstone if I had that information myself.

[SeanC]

I can't recall anything in ACoK to indicate that Cersei had the prophecy on her mind. 

When Tyrion first raises the idea of breaking Joffrey's betrothal to Sansa and making the offer to the Tyrells instead, Cersei spends two pages arguing against it even though every other councilor immediately sees it's a good idea.  There's never any indication in the text at the time why she's so opposed to this idea.  The common speculation is that she considers Sansa, who is a powerless hostage and who she has concluded is an idiot, could never be the Younger More Beautiful Queen who is meant to cause her so much grief -- but Margaery, daughter of the single-most-powerful house in the realm, is a much better fit for that bill.  Considering how AFFC features her immediately going on the warpath against Marg when she gets the opportunity, it's worth noting that she hated the idea from the get-go for no particularly obvious reason.

[Audreythe2nd]

I myself don't really puzzle over the Younger More Beautiful Queen aspect of the prophecy. On the show my immediate reaction was, "Margaery... or at least Cersei thinks it's Margaery." But I also thought Daenerys, because she's not on her radar at all. Either of those work to me. The valonqar is indeed more puzzling, and interesting to think about, but I wonder if the show took it out because they thought it was too much foreshadowing, or distracting, or too on the nose somehow. It's also possible they plan to have someone else kill her other than this "valonqar." Like, I can totally see it being undead Tommen in the books, because of the reasons everyone has outlined, and then the showrunners deciding not to do that, for whatever reason. Timing maybe? Just speculating.

[SeanC]

I myself don't really puzzle over the Younger More Beautiful Queen aspect of the prophecy. On the show my immediate reaction was, "Margaery... or at least Cersei thinks it's Margaery." But I also thought Daenerys, because she's not on her radar at all. Either of those work to me. The valonqar is indeed more puzzling, and interesting to think about, but I wonder if the show took it out because they thought it was too much foreshadowing, or distracting, or too on the nose somehow. It's also possible they plan to have someone else kill her other than this "valonqar." Like, I can totally see it being undead Tommen in the books, because of the reasons everyone has outlined, and then the showrunners deciding not to do that, for whatever reason. Timing maybe? Just speculating.

The best explanation for the removal of the valonqar language, in my opinion, is that the identity of the valonqar is exactly who you would think it was (Jaime), and the show, which value surprise over everything else, didn't want to spoil that.  It's not the same as saying Cersei's kids will die, since that doesn't specify who will do it or when.

 

Wight Tommen really doesn't make sense as a fulfillment of the prophecy.  Where's the tragedy there?  "Haha, foolish woman, you failed to account for the idea that it might be the zombified corpose of your younger son?"

[AshleyN]

Well it could be a retcon, but I could also buy that Cersei (because she is Cersei after all) decided that the fortune teller was a con artist and nothing bad would happen until Geoffrey died.  Because then she started irrationally making Tyrion's sending of Myrcella away (something that was partially done to keep her safe and partially done for very good political reasons) and Geoffrey's death part of the monster taking away all she holds dear.  Then she remembers how many bastards Robert had and her effort not to have any of his kids and there's Margaery becoming queen and it starts her spiral into madness.

That was always my interpretation: that she had more or less forgotten about it or put it out of her mind until Joffrey's death, at which point she realizes that it's starting to come true and becomes more and more paranoid and crazy.

 

Kinda fanwanky, but it works well enough for me.

[Hecate7]

Margaery married Geoffrey and Tommen and it was on her behalf that Geoffrey was killed.  Now that Margaery is in prison and Tommen is too young in the books and too incompetent in the show to do anything to free her, she could be indirectly responsible for Tommen's death as well.  However, there is no way to connect her to Myrcella's death in the show so does the YMB(Q) have to be tied to the death of Cersei's children?

 

How Margaery has taken all Cersei holds dear:

 

1. She of course married Joffrey and Joffrey was killed on her behalf.

2. She married Tommen, who appears to be starving himself to death over Margaery.

3. Because the fight was coming to King's Landing, Tyrion sent Myrcella to Dorne: this is not Margaery's fault, but it IS indirectly Margaery's fault that Tyrion was accused and had to have a trial by combat in which Oberyn died, turning Ellaria into a vengeance-obsessed weasel who wanted to kill Myrcella. Without Margaery, none of that would have happened. Tywin was killed by Tyrion, again, because of the poisoning of Joffrey by the Tyrells.

4. Jaime has more or less been taken from Cersei through Tyrion's murder of their father and now Myrcella's death. If he fails to save Myrcella there will be no way Cersei can forgive him---she doesn't have it in her.

 

I suspect anything else Cersei holds dear will also be taken by Margaery, but nobody ever said any of this would benefit the YMB at all.

[Hecate7]

Then again--How Sansa took all Cersei held dear:

 

1. Joffrey: she was betrothed to Joffrey, and it is her testimony that made Olenna plot to poison Joffrey. She did smuggle in the murder weapon, too.

2. Tywin: She married Tyrion, driving him to push away Shae which in turn drove Shae to Tywin. Or back to Tywin. Either way that's more or less what resulted in Tywin's murder.

3. Jaime: Jaime swore to help find her, and hasn't been the same since. It is the shared goal of finding Sansa which made him give Brienne his sword.

4. Myrcella & Tommen: yeah, I got nothing. I guess if Joffrey hadn't had to go, then Margaery wouldn't have married Tommen, but I simply can't pin Myrcella on Cersei here, except by relating it back to the poisoning of Joffrey.

 

The one thing Cersei holds dearest, though, is her crown and her fame, and those were taken by Margaery.

[nksarmi]

I gotta agree - at least on the show it looks like Magaery.

[FemmyV]

 

That combination of factors leads me to believe that Winterfell might be safest place in all of Westeros from the Walkers and their wights. I've even heard speculation that because it was built by the same guy who put up the Wall, it might have specific enchantments against the Walkers and wights throughout.

 

I would so love to believe this, but if the Others can get past whatever enchantments are keeping the Wall up ...

[Avaleigh]

I think it's Sansa 100%. Dany has the next best chance but she has virtually no connection to Cersei so the pay off here wouldn't be as good. The are so many reasons why it's better if it's Sansa. The only reason I'm still considering Dany at all is because of the Tyrion factor.  

 

If Margaery had been involved in Joffrey's poisoning then I could see Margaery being a cnadidate but that's enough to tell me that she's out contention. 

[nksarmi]

I think it's Sansa 100%. Dany has the next best chance but she has virtually no connection to Cersei so the pay off here wouldn't be as good. The are so many reasons why it's better if it's Sansa. The only reason I'm still considering Dany at all is because of the Tyrion factor.  

 

If Margaery had been involved in Joffrey's poisoning then I could see Margaery being a cnadidate but that's enough to tell me that she's out contention. 

Ok but what do you need to see happen before you think that part of the prophesy has come true?  To me, I think an argument could be made that it has happened and it was Margaery.  The only argument against it that I could see is that Margaery didn't really cast her down per say - she merely took her place in the natural order of things.  I mean, it's rather obvious that Cersei wouldn't remain queen once Robert B died - I don't know why she didn't consider that.

 

However, the line said, you will be queen until another younger, more beautiful casts you down and takes all you hold dear.  Do we think Cersei's children or even Jamie count as part of "all you hold dear" for book Cersei?  Because if they don't, then Margaery has taken the crown, the reputation, the prominence, etc... that Cersei holds so dear.  If we count her children and Jamie as part of that equation - I think the show has thrown us through a loop with Myrcella's (supposed) death because I don't think you can tie that to any of the women in consideration.

 

Then again, I guess you have to take into consideration what "queen" means in the prophesy - because if it literally means "wife of the king" then Cersei removed herself from power and Margaery took her place.  The only way I see this playing out as "cast her down" is if Margaery is completely exonerated in her trial but Cersei is convicted.  Of course, Cersei put that into play, but if Margaery comes out on top, she could order Cersei's death or at least removal from the capital. 

 

On the other hand, if Cersei is queen as long as she is any sort of queen (wife of king, queen regent for an under aged king, queen mother, etc....) then I suppose we could still be waiting to see who casts her down.  Then I suppose it is in fact even money on Sansa (if she comes to any sort of power which I'm still not sure she will), Margaery, or Dany taking KL and removing Cersei from all power.

[AshleyN]

I think it's Sansa 100%. Dany has the next best chance but she has virtually no connection to Cersei so the pay off here wouldn't be as good. The are so many reasons why it's better if it's Sansa. The only reason I'm still considering Dany at all is because of the Tyrion factor.  

 

If Margaery had been involved in Joffrey's poisoning then I could see Margaery being a cnadidate but that's enough to tell me that she's out contention. 

Well, in the books she almost certainly was (and I was kind of disappointed that they made it clear that Show Margaery was completely in the dark). And even in the show I suppose you could make the argument that Joffrey was killed because of his marriage to her.

 

That being said, I have to admit that this is one mystery that I have absolutely no investment in. Sansa makes the most sense to me, from a literary/character perspective at least, but for some reason I can't bring myself to care enough about this one to speculate too hard.

Edited July 15, 2015 by AshleyN

[Avaleigh]

Well, in the books she almost certainly was (and I was kind of disappointed that they made it clear that Show Margaery was completely in the dark). And even in the show I suppose you could make the argument that Joffrey was killed because of his marriage to her.

I thought one of the reasons they made the change of Margaery not being in on the plot to kill Joffrey was because of it not quite fitting in the with the prophecy. Fair point though that an argument can be made that he was killed because of his marriage to Margaery. 

[Hecate7]

He certainly was. Sansa would never have killed him--she'd have suffered, or fled, but she could never have murdered someone. Tyrion would have taken her out of the capital, or even overseas, before he killed a family member at that stage of his life. Only Olenna Tyrell and Petyr Baelish were at that point in their lives where they were comfortable killing someone.

[SeanC]

I think it's Sansa 100%. Dany has the next best chance but she has virtually no connection to Cersei so the pay off here wouldn't be as good. The are so many reasons why it's better if it's Sansa. The only reason I'm still considering Dany at all is because of the Tyrion factor.  

I agree that Sansa has the closest connection to Cersei, but I don't think it's likely to be her.  I'd say the show's changes have only made that seem less likely -- in the books, at least, you can argue about whether the Vale is going to get involved in the next round of politicking in the South.  In the show, Sansa has been sent to (and seems likely to remain in) the Northern theater, far away from Cersei.

[Chris24601]

The biggest obstacles to Sansa as YMBQ are that, first she needs to wed the king (since she is not already a crown princess by birth) and second that Cersei must survive long enough for Queen Sansa to return to KL and cast her down.

Jon is basically the only game left in town when it comes to a legit king (Tommen has to die for the prophecy to work and every other male candidate on the show is off the table), so for Sansa = YMBQ to work she'd have to marry her cousin (whom she had believed was her half-brother) so as to be queen.

Different people give different odds on that, but since people marrying for romantic love has been consistently shown to end badly, I wouldn't rule out a political marriage between them so its at least "plausible" at this stage.

Where I think Sansa as YMBQ falls apart though is in Cersei surviving long enough for Sansa to come into power and cast her down. Even if she were to be Jon's queen, I highly doubt Jon will be claiming the throne prior to the defeat of the Walkers and narratively speaking that's probably one of the last things the series will resolve (my bet would be Ep9 of the final season with Ep10 as the post climax wrap-up) and Cersei's story will almost certainly have been resolved by then.

So I'm gonna have to go with Marg as the prophesized YMBQ and its almost fitting in a way. Not all prophecies are earth-shattering. That Cersei's rise and fall are almost completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things I think just underlines how petty her life was perfectly.

It'd almost be like Lindsey on Angel complaining that it supposed to be Angel who killed him and not one of Angel's sidekicks. In his head he was SO important that only the prophesized champion was worthy of defeating him... but in reality he was nothing more than a distraction from the main event and not even worth the main hero's time to dispatch.

I think that end would fit Cersei perfectly.

[DigitalCount]

The best explanation for the removal of the valonqar language, in my opinion, is that the identity of the valonqar is exactly who you would think it was (Jaime), and the show, which value surprise over everything else, didn't want to spoil that. It's not the same as saying Cersei's kids will die, since that doesn't specify who will do it or when.

Wight Tommen really doesn't make sense as a fulfillment of the prophecy. Where's the tragedy there? "Haha, foolish woman, you failed to account for the idea that it might be the zombified corpose of your younger son?"

The tragedy is in Cersei’s demise at the hands of her beloved son. Respectfully, I disagree with the premise that the prophecy was given in order for her to avert it, or to have made her own bed in a sense. I refer to Macbeth, where he gets told of his future and supposed immortality because his end comes only after some impossible events occur. I don’t think Shakespeare intended for Macbeth to have somehow foreseen a forest besieging his castle, or to know that one of the spirits was going to use the most weaselly definition of the word “born.”

On the other hand, let’s say Jaime kills Cersei. Chain of hands, golden hand shaped in a gripping fashion, whatever. Why did Maggy choose to reveal this? Cersei asks a pretty straightforward question, despite the fact that she has just heard some weird stuff about how she’s going to lose everything to the new young hotness. First of all, on what planet is “your twin brother will kill you” a viable answer to “will I have kids”? I’ve heard it put forth that Maggy’s intent is to shake Cersei and hurt her with the answers, but I don’t see how this is even an answer to the question. I think this is important for the main reason that Maggy explicitly limited Cersei to three questions, which is what I was getting at with the “genie” comment earlier. It makes no sense to wish for fame, fortune and a hot spouse, only for the genie to turn around and also throw in world peace despite you not having wished for that, AFTER the genie has said you only get three wishes. It’s extra information not at all linked to the question asked. If Maggy wanted to hurt her, why not say that the king would be an abusive boor? It would have fit in with the answer to her first question.

Furthermore, and this is the biggie for me, it’s so easy to tie Jaime in. Cersei asks about her children. Who’s the father of her children? JAIME. Why would his relationship with her be mentioned as being her younger brother when the superior, more dramatic link is the fact that he’s her lover and the father of those same kids? If Maggy had said “the father” instead of “the younger brother” it could have been comedy gold. Cersei would have to wonder if she was going to get Castamere’d, or if one of the actual Seven was going to descend from the sky with the express purpose of choking her out. And hey, it would have actually tied into the question she asked. If she says it in Valyrian Cersei still needs to find out what it means. She might even think herself in the clear when Tywin died.

“Gold will be their crowns, and gold their shrouds. And when your tears have drowned you, the younger brother will wrap his hands…” Who can the younger brother be, other than the younger brother among those three for whom their crowns and shrouds will be gold? Heck, they’ve already set up Cersei as being willing to poison Tommen to spare him pain, and liking to hang out in crypts with her dead, uncremated relatives. Maybe that’s the thing she does and shouldn’t have, because it gives the Others another body to kill her with.

Really, looking at it all laid out, I have no idea why the idea of Jaime as valonqar has so much support, other than Cersei's mistake and GRRM's smoke and mirrors. I also think that they excluded the valonqar passage because it’s going to end up being Jaime, and that it’s supposed to be--but not because it’s too obvious, it’s because it’s not actually accurate given the words as stated. I think best-case scenario is that George made a mistake, and when D&D were plotting it they realized it couldn’t be done that way without invalidating the prophecy.

tl;dr: Anyone (including Jaime) who isn’t one of Cersei’s (or Robert’s, but none of them will be or have been crowned or shrouded in gold) children killing her results in a complete non-sequitur that makes no sense in context.

#TeamUndeadTommen

#palewightthroat

#IceTGoT