Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Audreythe2nd]

Even though she's bringing Jaime to LSH I fully expect her to stand for him in trial by combat to prove his innocence. And that plays into a huge part of the Jaime and Brienne relationship showing others what they've learned about each other.

 

I like this too. That is, if Brienne will even be allowed to stand for him in trial by combat (since she's sworn her sword to Stoneheart). The other option is that Brienne is Stoneheart's champion and Jaime fights his own battle and Brienne lets herself be killed by Jaime. In that way, Jaime would understand that Brienne wasn't actually trying to betray him, but save him (and the others, while sacrificing herself). However, this second option would mean that Jaime and Brienne make it all the way back to Stoneheart without Jaime copping to the fact that Brienne is totally hiding something. Martin's really set up an interesting dilemma for these two, I'm just dying to know if there's going to be some equivalent in the show and it's driving me nuts (it's probably the thing I spend the second most amount of time thinking about when I speculate about GoT, Jon's possible resurrection being the first).

 

But I don't think D&D changed Jamie's story because he ends up in a bad spot in the books - I think they probably see him pushing Bran from the window as an unredeemable act (my other half does as well).  So no matter where GRRM takes his story - they see him as a black hat.  

For that matter, if those of us who believe that Jamie is the "little brother" of Cersei's prophesy and he does end up being the one to kill her - given their obvious positive slant on Cersei, maybe Jamie is summed up to them as the man who started out pushing Bran from a tower and who will end killing his sister/lover and dying beside her.  In the books, Jamie could end up killing his sister to save the people of KL like he did with the Mad King, but all D&D will see is that he killed Cersei.  I think his first act of book canon and his potential last act in the story have more to do with how they paint him on the show than the idea that GRRM might regress Jamie after the journey he has taken to date.

I believe it is far more likely that Jamie will continue to advance in the books along this redemptive arc and will ultimately die in an act of heroism - its just that the act of heroism might involve killing Cersei and D&D don't see that as heroic.

 

I'm going to ignore the whole "Jaime is the one who is going to kill Cersei and they're going to frame it wrong because they hate him" thing because it requires me to make about 20 speculative jumps in the story that I'm not willing to make at this point. So I'll just say I'm sorry, I just don't see this attitude towards Jaime's character in the show at all at this point, and I don't see the positive slant on Cersei in comparison to Jaime either. As has been stated about a million times on this page alone, the one thing that the show has built up, tremendously, is his positive, redemptive relationship with Brienne. What positive relationship does Cersei have at this point exactly? Her loving relationship with Pycelle? With Qyburn? With the undead Mountain? Awesome. Sure, she has Tommen right now, but I think the prophecy really demonstrated that she's not a concerned mother because it's in her nature - she's downright paranoid about Maggy the Frog's predictions coming true because it means she loses. As for Jaime, as dumb as certain aspects of the Dorne storyline were (the acting of the Sand Snakes and the choreography mainly) I still came away from it seeing Jaime as a basically decent, diplomatic person. The continual emphasis on love being his motivation, on trying to be protective of his daughter, on not wanting to start a war ("corpses raise questions, questions raise armies"), having some fatherly moments of acceptance and happiness with his daughter before it ends tragically. I'm not arguing that it wasn't clunky, because I think everyone agrees that Dorne was not this shows finest few hours, but I definitely still came away from it thinking Jaime is a better human being than Cersei.

 

I think it's an environment of brute force, she went, because in her view, LF is the only game in town.

 

Agreed. But I think what's actually happening in the books, from the parts I've read, is that Littlefinger is grooming her for his own personal uses. He may be convincing both himself and Sansa that it's so she can learn all of these tricks and eventually come out on top at Winterfell, but I think somewhere along the way he's going to slip up and show his true hand and Sansa's probably going to run away (or be kidnapped... or something). That's why I wonder in the show if they sped this up by having Littlefinger slip up by proxy (putting her in a dangerous situation as a personal pawn, but not actually being there) which would facilitate her mistrust of him and cause her to escape. In the books I suspect the "betrayal" is going to come from him directly. This is pure speculation on my part though. I just think something's gonna blow up tremendously in the Vale to get her sort of where she is in the show. And this is all presupposing that after this season's storyline, Sansa's going to realize, "hey, that plan of Petyr's... not so great!" and that it's somehow going to match up with something that happens in the novel, but I could be wrong, obviously.

[Hecate7]

I like this too. That is, if Brienne will even be allowed to stand for him in trial by combat (since she's sworn her sword to Stoneheart). The other option is that Brienne is Stoneheart's champion and Jaime fights his own battle and Brienne lets herself be killed by Jaime. In that way, Jaime would understand that Brienne wasn't actually trying to betray him, but save him (and the others, while sacrificing herself). However, this second option would mean that Jaime and Brienne make it all the way back to Stoneheart without Jaime copping to the fact that Brienne is totally hiding something. Martin's really set up an interesting dilemma for these two, I'm just dying to know if there's going to be some equivalent in the show and it's driving me nuts (it's probably the thing I spend the second most amount of time thinking about when I speculate about GoT, Jon's possible resurrection being the first).

 

I'm going to ignore the whole "Jaime is the one who is going to kill Cersei and they're going to frame it wrong because they hate him" thing because it requires me to make about 20 speculative jumps in the story that I'm not willing to make at this point. So I'll just say I'm sorry, I just don't see this attitude towards Jaime's character in the show at all at this point, and I don't see the positive slant on Cersei in comparison to Jaime either. As has been stated about a million times on this page alone, the one thing that the show has built up, tremendously, is his positive, redemptive relationship with Brienne. What positive relationship does Cersei have at this point exactly? Her loving relationship with Pycelle? With Qyburn? With the undead Mountain? Awesome. Sure, she has Tommen right now, but I think the prophecy really demonstrated that she's not a concerned mother because it's in her nature - she's downright paranoid about Maggy the Frog's predictions coming true because it means she loses. As for Jaime, as dumb as certain aspects of the Dorne storyline were (the acting of the Sand Snakes and the choreography mainly) I still came away from it seeing Jaime as a basically decent, diplomatic person. The continual emphasis on love being his motivation, on trying to be protective of his daughter, on not wanting to start a war ("corpses raise questions, questions raise armies"), having some fatherly moments of acceptance and happiness with his daughter before it ends tragically. I'm not arguing that it wasn't clunky, because I think everyone agrees that Dorne was not this shows finest few hours, but I definitely still came away from it thinking Jaime is a better human being than Cersei.

 

Very much. I suspect that either they're misdirecting, or they know something we don't about Melara's fall into the well. Which, btw, we haven't seen on the show yet. In the books, there's the strong impression that Cersei pushed her, for which I was really unwilling to forgive her. I guess if it turns out someone else pushed her, I shouldn't forgive that person, either.

[nksarmi]

Audreythe2nd - "So I'll just say I'm sorry, I just don't see this attitude towards Jaime's character in the show at all at this point, and I don't see the positive slant on Cersei in comparison to Jaime either."

 

Ok, I'm not trying to be rude here, but how can you comment on this when you say you haven't read the books in their entirety - only summaries and excepts?  I've read the books and I have still forgotten a lot of nuances that other posters here bring up.  The difference between book Cersei and show Cersei is so blatant that many fans refer to show Cersei by a different name. She is just THAT different.  And honestly, if you haven't read the books in their entirety, I don't think you can come away with realizing how much they have toned down her evil.

 

But as much as the unsullied still view Cersei as evil, I think the choice to tone her down is so obvious that it must be deliberate on the part of D&D.  Furthermore, other posters have quoted D&D sayings things about both Jamie and Cersei that largely differ from how books readers view these two characters. I believe it is reasonable to speculate that perhaps their view of these characters is slanting their choices as they translate them from book to screen.
 

Additionally, while I realize that D&D have been given a rough outline of where all the characters end up - that doesn't mean they are making choices that are consistent with the writer's vision.  Now it is completely fair to say that because he allowed this show to go into production well before he was close to being done with the series, that the show had to depart from his vision at some point. And we should just enjoy the show for what it becomes - not what it could have been if GRRM had gotten them material earlier.

 

However, this is the freaking television vs book thread where we get to speculate about if the show botched a character from the books.  Or if the show's choices were better than the books.  And since we are a) pretty much caught up with the books and b) in a place where some characters are completely off the reservation from the book counterparts - isn't this the time where we get to make 20 speculative leaps about what that means?

 

Maybe I am reading some people wrong - but it seems like some people think we shouldn't be making assumptions or speculative leaps at all and I say, why the heck not?  And it's fine for people to criticize the writers too - I mean D&D have made choices to eliminate some of the better parts of two sub-par books.  In regards to Jamie specifically, the replaced an excellent story with a rather crappy one and you can't get that from summaries I don't think.  And I don't think anyone can really understand how much better the North story was in the books compared to what we got this season in Winterfell from reading summaries.  Heck, to me something as small as the wolf dreams takes a LOT away from the Stark characters.

 

So yea, I honestly think we are at the point where it is totally ok to make speculative jumps regarding what the writers have included and what they have dropped and what that means to certain characters overall stories whom they have changed completely.  I don't understand why anyone has a problem with this, but whatever. 

 

I also see a lot of people say the writers don't hate certain characters, but I fail to understand why anyone would believe that.  D&D did not create this work, GRRM did.  It is perfectly reasonable to believe they have characters they love and characters they hate. As the originator of the work, GRRM might not, but I'm pretty positive D&D do.  I mean, are there any book readers or show fans who don't have favorites or characters we despise? If we all do, why do we think they would be any different?  So yes, I am almost certain their personal bias on the characters will color their choices and those biases may very well differ from ours.  That's ok - this is their show, but to deny that possibility seems ridiculous. 

 

ETA: To specifically address Cersei vs Jamie on the show - I know Cersei is hated by the unsullied but I suspect Jamie is still disliked as well.  And if he isn't - all it would take to get the audience back there is him pushing Bran from the window in the previously on GoT segment. Because Jamie is a character who did some really, really bad things (from Bran to Ned to killing all of Ned's men) in the first season.  A character like that cannot be reasonably redeemed by befriending likable characters like Brie and Bron and having Myrcella telling him she knows he's her uncledaddy and she loves him - which was contrived as hell considering that even on the show Myrcella and Tommen seem to have more of a relationship with Tyrion when we meet the Lannisters than Jamie has with any of the children.

 

While Jamie did lose his hand because he saved Brie - that is the only truly positive thing he has done on the show to date (and this is in a show where many people believe that he raped Cersei in the sect next to their son's corpse).  Well that and perhaps asking from Bron to be released from prison.  He has no other redeeming moments - we can't even count saving Myrcella because a) it looks like the Sand Snakes were completely incompetent and b) it certainly appears that Ellaria killed her anyway.  Jamie also still appears to be fully in love with Cersei on the show.  Now I hope at this point that Jamie's story goes somewhere interesting, but it hasn't gone there yet.

 

In the books, GRRM is having Jamie make a comeback from those very bad acts by using diplomacy to bring peace to a war torn area and help the common people in the process.  He also is making a break from his weird sister love and told Tyrion a secret that he kept for years that changed his whole way of thinking.  He also doesn't hate his brother for killing their father because he understands why Tyrion did it.  Jamie is far from perfect in the books, but he is trying to do good. The only thing show Jamie has done that didn't evolve around what Cersei wanted was save Tyrion's life.  I would hardly call that a redemptive arc.

 

Furthermore, on the show Cersei is very much painted as a victim in my opinion.  Yes they had her smirking and gloating and setting herself up for failure and calling for Sansa's head and practically mustache twirling it around this season.  But in the end, the Walk of Shame was so brutal for what she admitted to (which was sleeping with Lancel) that it almost takes you out of the "boo Cersei" moment and makes you think WTF with the Faith Militant.  It would be different if she had all of the accusations thrown at her that were in the book (which were a ton) - but this Walk of Shame was for consensual sex with one man.  You don't come off hating her in that scene - you come off hating the FM and the common people who were abusing her. 

 

So I guess in summary, I strongly disagree that in the show you come off seeing Jamie as a better person than Cersei. I'd say you come off viewing them both the same and if you toss in the sept rape, you probably see her as more of his victim than the other way around (which is definitely how they seem in the books to me).

Edited July 10, 2015 by nksarmi

[benteen]

D&D have excused Cersei's behavior by saying he's a neurotic mother.  One who loves her kids.  In the books that's debateable.  She loves Joffrey (despite having done a terrible job raising him) but seems to ignore Tommen and Myrcella.  She mentally complains that Tommen isn't as good of a king as her insane Joffrey and punishes him when he stands up to her (the whole whipping boy thing).  D&D have been the ones to completely alter Cersei's character and explain away her bad decisions while largely junking Jaime's redemption arc these past two seasons.

Edited July 10, 2015 by benteen

[BlackberryJam]

I've read the books and I absolutely agree with everything Audreythe2nd said.

 

I think Cersei is portrayed as a disgusting human with no redeeming values on the show, while in the books, we can actually understand the basis of her crazy which makes her someone sympathetic. Show Cersei though? Just horrific.

 

I also disagree about Jaime. I think the big problem here is that book readers expect Jaime's arc to be portrayed a certain way and this "they aren't showing his redemption arc!" complaints are really, "they aren't showing his redemption arc the way I wanted/expected them to show it." There are a multitude of book readers who have never forgiven Jaime for Bran. So, of course there are show watchers who have never forgiven Jaime for Bran. The show gave us so many touching Jaime and Brienne scenes that Jaime's breaking away from Cersei is clear, even if it is not how it's portrayed in the books. And really, in the books, Jaime's mantra of Lancel, the Kettlebacks and Moon Boy is really rather revolting and misogynistic. 

[DigitalCount]

I don't know if I'd consider it misogynistic. He simply thought she was as faithful to him as he was to her. I can't remember if he brags about how he's more honorable than Ned to Catelyn in the book, but if he did, he finds out he was being played for a fool, which causes him emotional pain. This is especially true in light of all the things he's done for love, and how much he already both hates and idolizes himself.

[blixie]

 

I've read the books and I absolutely agree with everything Audreythe2nd said.

 

Well then you win! Or not, and reasonable people can disagree.

[BlackberryJam]

I don't know if I'd consider it misogynistic. He simply thought she was as faithful to him as he was to her. I can't remember if he brags about how he's more honorable than Ned to Catelyn in the book, but if he did, he finds out he was being played for a fool, which causes him emotional pain. This is especially true in light of all the things he's done for love, and how much he already both hates and idolizes himself.

 

 

DigitalCount, Jaime spends quite a bit of time thinking about how he'd like to knock Cersei's teeth in, thinking of her as a whore, I think he might even inner monologue her as the queen of whores. He's a total Bitter Betty. I mean, I love Jaime and he's one of my favorites, but the way he thinks of Cersei after his talk with Tyrion is pretty disturbing. But you know, I'm okay with it, because I hate Cersei. I just wish he hated her for reasons other than the infidelity.

 

Well then you win! Or not, and reasonable people can disagree.

 

blixie, nksarmi was discounting Audreythe2nd's opinions because she hadn't read the books. I'm just pointing out, as a book reader, I agree with her. But hey...you know what...I DO WIN!  I AM THE WINNER! Now gimme mah trophy!

[Audreythe2nd]

In the interest of honesty, I said I hadn't read the books in their entirety. I have read most of Brienne's chapters, some of Jaime's chapters. Some of Sansa/Alayne's chapters. The entire first book. Etc. I said that because I know I'm at a disadvantage when I comment, because I have read things out of order, sometimes out of context, and obviously not completely, but I think I have read enough to comment on some aspects regardless. It's okay if you don't think so, I understand. That's why I was honest in the first place. But this:

 

So I'll just say I'm sorry, I just don't see this attitude towards Jaime's character in the show at all at this point, and I don't see the positive slant on Cersei in comparison to Jaime either." 

 

Ok, I'm not trying to be rude here, but how can you comment on this when you say you haven't read the books in their entirety - only summaries and excepts?

 

What I said in my entire, long comment about Jaime directly referred to Jaime in the show alone, and how he's coming across there. I see no reason why I can't give an opinion about that, being a show watcher. I would think it's especially relevant to this conversation since my feelings happened in the following order: watched show > disliked Jaime > continued to watch show > liked Jaime more > read book #1 > continued to watch show > loved Jaime > still watched show > read some Jaime chapters > continued to watch show > still love him, am kind of obsessed with what happens to him. Some people are saying he's coming across in X way on the TV show, and I'm just trying to point out, how is that a universal fact when I watched the TV show first, and still perceived him to be coming across in Y way? I did not say that what they've done with his storyline is interesting this season, or that it couldn't be better, or that they've never screwed up once in the show, or that he's on the same track as the books right now. But I don't see enough evidence that he's going to do something heroic in the books that is going to be portrayed as unheroic in the show. Maybe he is, but I don't see it yet. 

 

PS. The valonqar part was left out of the show. So what does that mean, exactly? I'm asking, legitimately. Not positing an answer.

[Cheshrkat]

D&D have excused Cersei's behavior by saying he's a neurotic mother.  One who loves her kids.  In the books that's debateable.  She loves Joffrey (despite having done a terrible job raising him) but seems to ignore Tommen and Myrcella.  She mentally complains that Tommen isn't as good of a kid as her insane Joffrey and punishes him when he stands up to her (the whole whipping boy thing).  D&D have been the ones to completely alter Cersei's character and explain away her bad decisions while largely junking Jaime's redemption arc these past two seasons.

 

Definitely agree. One line in particular stands out in my memory, where she is thinking that although Tommen might want to exercise power, he could wait for his turn, as she had waited.   I do think she loves her kids, but Book Cersei is also about herself to an equal degree, and although she grieved for Joffrey and her father, she saw an opening for herself to truly rule and she took it.  She even congratulates herself (hilariously) at several points along the way with what a good job she is doing, when in fact she is just screwing up royally.  Kevan tells her so and Jaime tells her so, but she will not listen and surrounds herself with obsequious sycophants who feed her ego.

Edited July 10, 2015 by Cheshrkat

[nksarmi]

I've read the books and I absolutely agree with everything Audreythe2nd said.

 

I think Cersei is portrayed as a disgusting human with no redeeming values on the show, while in the books, we can actually understand the basis of her crazy which makes her someone sympathetic. Show Cersei though? Just horrific.

 

I also disagree about Jaime. I think the big problem here is that book readers expect Jaime's arc to be portrayed a certain way and this "they aren't showing his redemption arc!" complaints are really, "they aren't showing his redemption arc the way I wanted/expected them to show it." There are a multitude of book readers who have never forgiven Jaime for Bran. So, of course there are show watchers who have never forgiven Jaime for Bran. The show gave us so many touching Jaime and Brienne scenes that Jaime's breaking away from Cersei is clear, even if it is not how it's portrayed in the books. And really, in the books, Jaime's mantra of Lancel, the Kettlebacks and Moon Boy is really rather revolting and misogynistic. 

I don't think it's fair to say that book readers are just whining that they aren't getting their way when a character's arc has been changed significantly - which as of now, Jamie's has. I really don't see how you can argue that Riverlands in the books equals Dorne on the show.  I'll give that we have no way of knowing if GRRM's version of Stannis is better or worse than what we got at the end of season five from D&D (I hope it is because that sucked and I hope he tells a better story, but still we don't know yet and won't until at least book six comes out).

 

However, we do know that Jamie's story is different, we know that Sansa's story is different, and know that Tyrion's story is different (others as well like Ser Barrister, pretty sure Myrcella since she isn't dead in the books, etc...).  Some of these changes - like Tyrion - might end up being a LOT better.  Many of them may not.  It's ok for us all to disagree on what we like and don't like, but it really shouldn't be boiled down to "stop whining just because it isn't the way you want it." 

 

At any rate, I don't think they are showing a redemption arc for Jamie on the show and I said why pretty comprehensively so I won't repeat it.  I think he has a lot to be redeemed for and for many people that will never happen.  I think Jamie has the potential (if done properly by GRRM) to be a Snape (from Harry Potter) type character who did some very bad things and some very sacrificially thing and who was not completely redeemed but was forgiven by the main character.  This is of course a much darker world, but I can still see the same being true here for Jamie in the books.  I just don't see that type of arc on the show yet - but they could do it in season six (I don't think they will to be honest - but they could).

 

And Cersei - well yea whatever.  People have a lot of different opinions about her book vs. show, but I definitely come down on the show makes her a) more understandable and sympathetic and b) a hell of lot less evil and calculating.  But in the end, I think she's headed for bat shit crazy either place so it really doesn't matter.

 

Audreythe2nd - I perceived your post as saying you didn't see the difference between how he was written on the show vs the books.  That's why I said what I did.  Because well frankly, Dorne was just a waste of storytelling this season and it did no favors to Jamie's story.  I wanted Dorne to be different, I looked for reasons for Dorne to matter, and I'm still irrationally hoping the boat goes anywhere but back to KL because that makes no sense to me, but I am preparing to be disappointed. 

 

And honestly, if people are right that the boat is going back to KL (based on some quote by the writers - it still doesn't make sense to me as I think it has to be a Dornish boat and why would Trystane allow that if Myrcella is dead????) I don't see Jamie's arc being aligned with the books any time soon.  I mean, if he sees Cersei how we last sorry, his heart is going to break for her and he's going to hate himself for not saving her from that (he still loves her on the show).  He's also going to carry the enormous weight of Myrcella dying in his arms.  I don't see him realistically being willing to do much to save Trystane (why wouldn't he blame him?).  I don't see much ahead for him that is positive at all to be honest. 

 

He might NOT do anything heroic in the books, but I see potential for decent story there.  I just don't think GRRM will give him a happy ending. 

 

As for why the "little brother" wasn't mentioned - my best guess is that it will come up later to punch viewers in the guy when Jamie kills Cersei instead of Tyrion.  I think that might be why they aren't having him get over her yet - they don't want to tip their hands and let's face it - that has the potential to be a HUGE surprise.  But I definitely think it was hinted at with the "I want to die in the arms of the woman I love" line.  I think Jamie is going to kill Cersei and then kill himself on the show and I suspect it will happen that way in the books as well but without some of the cooler story telling that GRRM does first.

Edited July 10, 2015 by nksarmi

[Chris24601]

In terms of speculative leaps at this point I think, rather than than presume that D&D are way off course and take 20 leaps to put thIngs where our preferences tell us a given character should be, we should instead presume that D&D are taking shortcuts to reach a goal we can't see and then figure out where the book and show versions might be able to converge in say, 2-4 leaps.

Jon is super easy because he's basically right where he is in the books. Stannis isn't hard either since all the book version needs to do is have his ambitions fall completely to ashes and die.

Jamie and Sansa are trickier because they seem way off course from their book counterparts, but if we presume instead that D&D aren't so much off course as cutting out a bunch of filler to put them where GRRM intends to have them by the end of WoW we might get a stronger picture of where the books are really headed vs. where we only think they are.

My guess for Jamie is that after returning with the dead Myrcella that Jamie will end up heading to the riverlands for an abbreviated version of that arc.

So too, maybe we've guessed wrong about which way Sansa will turn. Instead of North to the Wall, Sansa meets up with Brienne and Pod and they take her South to the Riverlands where Sansa takes on the narrative function of Lady Stoneheart by winning over the BWB to the cause of hunting down those who betrayed the Tullys and Starks and eventually she forces the same sort of choice for Brienne between loyalty to the oath she made Cat or to Jamie that is resolved by Sansa forgiving Jamie and s6 ends with all of them aligned roughly with the BWB.

By contrast, perhaps things go south for Sansa in the vale, she grows to distrust Littlefinger and flees to the Riverlands where she meets up with Lady Stoneheart and takes over her mother's position after Lady Stoneheart is slain within the BWB by the end of the book so that Sansa, Jamie, Brienne and Pod are all in the Riverlands and with the BWB at the end of the book.

That's just one potential example of how things MIGHT end up working with the D&D path just being an abbreviated/detoured version of getting to the same destination.

[nksarmi]

In terms of speculative leaps at this point I think, rather than than presume that D&D are way off course and take 20 leaps to put thIngs where our preferences tell us a given character should be, we should instead presume that D&D are taking shortcuts to reach a goal we can't see and then figure out where the book and show versions might be able to converge in say, 2-4 leaps.

Jon is super easy because he's basically right where he is in the books. Stannis isn't hard either since all the book version needs to do is have his ambitions fall completely to ashes and die.

Jamie and Sansa are trickier because they seem way off course from their book counterparts, but if we presume instead that D&D aren't so much off course as cutting out a bunch of filler to put them where GRRM intends to have them by the end of WoW we might get a stronger picture of where the books are really headed vs. where we only think they are.

My guess for Jamie is that after returning with the dead Myrcella that Jamie will end up heading to the riverlands for an abbreviated version of that arc.

So too, maybe we've guessed wrong about which way Sansa will turn. Instead of North to the Wall, Sansa meets up with Brienne and Pod and they take her South to the Riverlands where Sansa takes on the narrative function of Lady Stoneheart by winning over the BWB to the cause of hunting down those who betrayed the Tullys and Starks and eventually she forces the same sort of choice for Brienne between loyalty to the oath she made Cat or to Jamie that is resolved by Sansa forgiving Jamie and s6 ends with all of them aligned roughly with the BWB.

By contrast, perhaps things go south for Sansa in the vale, she grows to distrust Littlefinger and flees to the Riverlands where she meets up with Lady Stoneheart and takes over her mother's position after Lady Stoneheart is slain within the BWB by the end of the book so that Sansa, Jamie, Brienne and Pod are all in the Riverlands and with the BWB at the end of the book.

That's just one potential example of how things MIGHT end up working with the D&D path just being an abbreviated/detoured version of getting to the same destination.

I actually remember people saying that Sansa would assume the Lady Stoneheart role at one point, but I don't remember if that was speculation or spoiler.  Obviously it hasn't happened yet - but maybe you are right and that is still coming.

 

Of course, I also saw an interview with Sophie that said she thought the Dark Sansa stuff helped her with the role of Jean Grey (either auditioning or while working on it) and I don't really get that connection. 

 

But anyway, if D&D bring Sansa, Brie, and Jamie all together in season six (along with BWB), that might be interesting, but I wonder if that would also mean they are going for eight seasons.

 

While it is interesting to see if the show is giving us clues to the next book, somehow I think it's safe to assume they aren't. But it's still fun to look for clues. :)

[Audreythe2nd]

In terms of speculative leaps at this point I think, rather than than presume that D&D are way off course and take 20 leaps to put thIngs where our preferences tell us a given character should be, we should instead presume that D&D are taking shortcuts to reach a goal we can't see and then figure out where the book and show versions might be able to converge in say, 2-4 leaps.

 

You know, I was going to say something about the show possibly giving us clues as to what is important/unimportant in terms of endgame even in the books, but I didn't think it was my place, so I'm glad you said a version of what I was thinking.

 

And honestly, if people are right that the boat is going back to KL (based on some quote by the writers - it still doesn't make sense to me as I think it has to be a Dornish boat and why would Trystane allow that if Myrcella is dead????)

 

On this, you and I agree. I have been trying to get Jaime and Bronn out of this "Dorwanese Knot" so desperately I feel like I've become John Nash frantically writing out equations on whatever surface I can find (not really, but that's what it feels like). The best I can come up with is: it wasn't a Dornish ship, and it wasn't a King's Landing ship. It was simply a ship that was going to King's Landing, and that ship was commissioned to take them there. Why commission a ship not of either of their lands to take them to KL? I don't know, all the ships were occupied in the annual Dorne/KL yacht racing competition? Sure, let's go with that.

 

 I think that might be why they aren't having him get over her yet - they don't want to tip their hands and let's face it - that has the potential to be a HUGE surprise.

 

Well, to be fair, IF Jaime ends up having to kill Cersei and still loves her (and I assume if he still loved her it would especially have to be for something particularly extreme - ie. she's going to try to set fire to King's Landing with wildfire, Jaime is faced with a choice...again.) that would be a hell of a more impressive ending for him than if he already hated her. Plus, it would paint his character in a more heroic light, and contrast with the time he told her he would kill the whole bloody lot of them until they were the only ones left in the world. Because he won't be able to do that. Makes for a hell of a good story, actually. If it happens like that. But I'm still more aboard the Cleganebowl Train 4EVA, which I think the show might actually have tipped to/be tipping to slightly. But in that case I think I'm seeing things I want to see because it's so damn hype. :)

[CofCinci]

There are so many little brothers in the series. Too many!

[BlackberryJam]

I don't think it's fair to say that book readers are just whining that they aren't getting their way when a character's arc has been changed significantly - which as of now, Jamie's has. I really don't see how you can argue that Riverlands in the books equals Dorne on the show.

[snip]

However, we do know that Jamie's story is different, we know that Sansa's story is different, and know that Tyrion's story is different (others as well like Ser Barrister, pretty sure Myrcella since she isn't dead in the books, etc...). Some of these changes - like Tyrion - might end up being a LOT better. Many of them may not. It's ok for us all to disagree on what we like and don't like, but it really shouldn't be boiled down to "stop whining just because it isn't the way you want it."

[snip]

I just don't see that type of arc on the show yet - but they could do it in season six (I don't think they will to be honest - but they could).

[snip]

I didn't say anyone is whining, but if that's how you want to characterize your own posts, that's fine with me. I did not suggest you, or anyone else, was whining. I'll accept your opinion if you felt you were whining, but I really don't think that was your goal here, so let's set that aside.

I took umbrage with invalidating someone's opinion or suggesting they shouldn't comment because they haven't read the books(fully), when I have read the books and I agree with her opinion.

I would agree that the plots are different, but the stories are the same. The difference between S1 Jaime (attacking Ned in the street, ordering his men killed) and S5 Jaime (keeping his own counsel, trying to avoid war) is massive and remarkable. I do not particularly like Dorne, in books or show (hated everything about the Sand Snakes, books and show), but the story of Jaime changing is still happening, just in a different setting with different plot movers. I like the Riverlands better, because it was more Jaime than the mere pittance we got, but I can't deny that his story (while not caught up with the books) is essentially the same.

If you can't see it, you can't see it. I fully accept your statement of your own abilities and don't question that. However, I can see it and find it fairly obvious.

I'm with Chris in that it seems to me that D&D are putting the characters where they need to be, but taking shortcuts doing it.

The show isn't just giving us hints about what's going to happen in the books, they are telling us outright. Shireen dies as a sacrifice, Stannis still loses and he dies. Selyse dies. Tyrion and Dany meet up. Myrcella dies. How it happens will be different, but it happens.

Edited July 10, 2015 by BlackberryJam

[AshleyN]

There are so many little brothers in the series. Too many!

#TeamUndeadTommen

 

(Hey, we all get to have one crack theory we embrace.)

 

 

So too, maybe we've guessed wrong about which way Sansa will turn. Instead of North to the Wall, Sansa meets up with Brienne and Pod and they take her South to the Riverlands where Sansa takes on the narrative function of Lady Stoneheart by winning over the BWB to the cause of hunting down those who betrayed the Tullys and Starks and eventually she forces the same sort of choice for Brienne between loyalty to the oath she made Cat or to Jamie that is resolved by Sansa forgiving Jamie and s6 ends with all of them aligned roughly with the BWB.

My only problem with this is that in terms of the big picture, bringing Sansa back to the North, only to have her turn around and head right back South next season seems...weird to me. I feel like symbolically, the return of a Stark to Winterfell and the North is really momentous and should be more than just a brief diversion and a bit of filler. Particularly for Sansa, who has always felt like the Stark who is the most disconnected from her Northern roots. So seeing her return to those roots and really embrace her identity as Sansa Stark of Winterfell felt like an important step in her journey and personal character development. Even though she did leave Winterfell in the finale, it would seem a little strange to me if her next step didn't involve her staying in the North at all.

Edited July 10, 2015 by AshleyN

[benteen]

#TeamUndeadTommen

 

(Hey, we all get to have one crack theory we embrace.)

 

 

My only problem with this is that in terms of the big picture, bringing Sansa back to the North, only to have her turn around and head right back South next season seems...weird to me. I feel like symbolically, the return of a Stark to Winterfell and the North is pretty momentous and should be more than just a brief diversion and a bit of filler. Particularly for Sansa, who has always felt like the Stark who is the most disconnected from her Northern roots. So seeing her return to those roots and really embrace her identity as Sansa Stark of Winterfell felt like an important step in her journey and personal character development. Even though she did leave Winterfell in the finale, it would seem a little strange to me if her next step didn't involve her staying in the North at all.

 

Bringing Sansa back to the North, only to have her turn around and head back South would not just be odd but it would prove that D&D see her as little more than a plot device.  They wanted Sansa to be in the one storyline they would "eager to do" since Season 2, logical sense be damned.  It's strange how they alter storylines on this show, only to have often play out the way they do in the books.  Tyrion and Shae's relationship is one such example.  They gave more depth to the Shae character and portrayed the relationship between her and Tyrion as an actual one, only for her to inexplicably turn her back on both her and Tyrion in the end to fit with the books.  Despite the fact that it didn't ring true to the way they portrayed Shae on the show.  That's not the only example of course but it's one that comes to mind.

 

Jaime and Cersei was an extremely unhealthy relationship for the two of them that had grave consequences for the Realm.  But that relationship brought the worst in Jaime while Cersei was an awful person without it.  Not excusing Jaime's actions at all but Jaime fares far better when not gravitating around Cersei.

Edited July 10, 2015 by benteen

[Avaleigh]

You know, I was going to say something about the show possibly giving us clues as to what is important/unimportant in terms of endgame even in the books, but I didn't think it was my place, so I'm glad you said a version of what I was thinking.

 

On this, you and I agree. I have been trying to get Jaime and Bronn out of this "Dorwanese Knot" so desperately I feel like I've become John Nash frantically writing out equations on whatever surface I can find (not really, but that's what it feels like). The best I can come up with is: it wasn't a Dornish ship, and it wasn't a King's Landing ship. It was simply a ship that was going to King's Landing, and that ship was commissioned to take them there. Why commission a ship not of either of their lands to take them to KL? I don't know, all the ships were occupied in the annual Dorne/KL yacht racing competition? Sure, let's go with that.

 

Well, to be fair, IF Jaime ends up having to kill Cersei and still loves her (and I assume if he still loved her it would especially have to be for something particularly extreme - ie. she's going to try to set fire to King's Landing with wildfire, Jaime is faced with a choice...again.) that would be a hell of a more impressive ending for him than if he already hated her. Plus, it would paint his character in a more heroic light, and contrast with the time he told her he would kill the whole bloody lot of them until they were the only ones left in the world. Because he won't be able to do that. Makes for a hell of a good story, actually. If it happens like that. But I'm still more aboard the Cleganebowl Train 4EVA, which I think the show might actually have tipped to/be tipping to slightly. But in that case I think I'm seeing things I want to see because it's so damn hype. :)

Ha, I had to plus one your post just for the John Nash comparison. I've thought about it a bit too. Not like that but I get what you're saying lol.

At first I was all set to disagree with the second quote in bold but am now inclined to agree. I've always assumed that Jaime would kill Cersei to save others *and* because she's a worthless excuse for a human being, but now I think you're right in that it would much more difficult and complex to see Jaime kill Cersei if a part of him is still in love with her. I've also never been fond of how his biggest issue with her is having fucked the Kettleblacks and Lancel as opposed to show Jaime side eyeing Cersei for things like her horrible treatment of Tyrion so I don't think I would mind if the show went this route.

[nksarmi]

I didn't say soneone can't comment if they didn't read the books, I said its hard to appreciate the difference if you haven't read the books in their entirety. Obviously people who have can still disagree.

But I think there is a big difference in book jamie and show jamie is that I don't see him making his own decisions yet. To me he still revolves around cersei. As really weird as some of the dialogue in dorne was, I think it showed for jamie jis story is still about loving someone he shouldn't.

On to another front, I have to say that putting sansa in the north just to move her to riverlands ot back to the vale would not be a shortcut. I defended the writers on this choice all season and I feel stupid for it.

[nksarmi]

Oh and I just want to agree with benteen about how they change things and then have to twist things around to get back to the books....

The things with mel going with stannis this season is a good example. She and his family went with him so they could burn shireen this season. But then to get her back to the wall in time to save jon, she losses all faith in stannis because some sell swords leave? Why should thay matter to her? Shouldn't it just be a bigger miracle for her god? That was just odd.

[Audreythe2nd]

Ha, I had to plus one your post just for the John Nash comparison. I've thought about it a bit too. Not like that but I get what you're saying lol.

 

Heh. Thanks. Now for my second problem with the Dorwanese knot: in the books Jaime has advance "warning" if that's what you want to call it that Cersei is on trial, and he's well away from King's Landing. Ergo, he himself is not in any *immediate* danger of being arrested by the faith, or being charged with anything himself. However, if he actually arrives in King's Landing in the show, how is he going to avoid being charged with the same crime that Cersei is (this is totally assuming that incest is an actual charge, and not just adultery and treason)? Or wait, IS the show going to have him charged with the crime of incest by the Faith? Is this Jaime's trial by combat in the show? Is Brienne going to come and be his champion in KL as opposed to against Lady Stoneheart?! (which would be totally different and kind of weird, because Jaime IS actually guilty of incest and Brienne knows it - but if it's because she thinks she's failed him and owes him, that's interesting and would give me something to think about for a really long time). 

 

And everything I wrote above? All speculation because of a boat returning to King's Landing. I swear, that stupid Dorne boat... ;-)

Edited July 10, 2015 by Audreythe2nd

[DigitalCount]

#TeamUndeadTommen

(Hey, we all get to have one crack theory we embrace.)

Hey, if you take the prophecy as straightforwardly as possible, it can only be undead Tommen. Just saying. I've gone from not wanting to be "that guy" who only wants to talk about IceT, always going on about IceT, would he just be quiet about IceT...to the guy who is loud/proud.

I'll admit, it will be disappointing for me if Jaime kills Cersei, but mostly because I feel it's a huge regression. People give him a lot of flak for the Goldenhand the Just thing, but I do think he's changing for the better. He's no longer defining himself with regard to his toxic twin. Having him go from "the things I do for love" to "the things I do out of hate" is still "I do things because Cersei." Plus, as you're all tired of hearing, my vote in the pool is for Tommen giving Cersei the Ser Waymar treatment.

So, #TeamUndeadTommen it is. Bit long for a t-shirt.

[BlackberryJam]

Hey, if you take the prophecy as straightforwardly as possible, it can only be undead Tommen. Just saying. I've gone from not wanting to be "that guy" who only wants to talk about IceT, always going on about IceT, would he just be quiet about IceT...to the guy who is loud/proud.

I'll admit, it will be disappointing for me if Jaime kills Cersei, but mostly because I feel it's a huge regression. People give him a lot of flak for the Goldenhand the Just thing, but I do think he's changing for the better. He's no longer defining himself with regard to his toxic twin. Having him go from "the things I do for love" to "the things I do out of hate" is still "I do things because Cersei." Plus, as you're all tired of hearing, my vote in the pool is for Tommen giving Cersei the Ser Waymar treatment.

So, #TeamUndeadTommen it is. Bit long for a t-shirt.

 

What about #TUT for short? Maybe an ice pyramid with a big glowing blue eye on it for the symbol?

[benteen]

I didn't say soneone can't comment if they didn't read the books, I said its hard to appreciate the difference if you haven't read the books in their entirety. Obviously people who have can still disagree.

But I think there is a big difference in book jamie and show jamie is that I don't see him making his own decisions yet. To me he still revolves around cersei. As really weird as some of the dialogue in dorne was, I think it showed for jamie jis story is still about loving someone he shouldn't.

On to another front, I have to say that putting sansa in the north just to move her to riverlands ot back to the vale would not be a shortcut. I defended the writers on this choice all season and I feel stupid for it.

 

You're right...instead of breaking free from Cersei and his toxic relationship, he seems more entrenched than ever.  By the end of Season 6, he needs to have severed that relationship.

[SeanC]

Well I don't think the Vale Lords count as "friends."  Lyssa Arryn was an actual relative and we know how that ended.   All she had to go on was Lord Royce saying he hunted with Ned and he was a "good man."   That's all she has and that's hardly a sign of allegiance, certainly not call to assume ANY of the Vale would raise an army unless it's for Lord Robin, which is how LF maneuvers them, Sansa seems to be incidental.   She had no reason to distrust them, but she had no reason to trust them either.

 

And I maintain she followed LF's lead in the show just like she did in the book.   He told her to lie to the Vale Lords in AFFC and she did, he told her to babysit Robin, done.   As of now she is the monkey to LF's Organ Grinder and she's willing to do such because of his past success rate.    She escaped a trial for regicide (though he helped set it in motion) because of Littlefinger.

She certainly considers them friends. She banks on them all keeping her secret.

 

The comparison you make doesn't work, because Sansa in the book has no choice but to follow Littlefinger's lead.  TV!Sansa was placed in a position of security independent of Littlefinger that the book version has never come close to.

 

Did she? Were these "powerful friends" she'd known for about five minutes, going to keep Robin Arryn under control, or were they going to do whatever he, as Lord of the Vale, ordered them to do, such as perhaps pitch Sansa out the moon door the first time he lost his temper with her?

Robin Arryn has never demonstrated any inclination to do that.  He's treated as a basically comic figure on the show.  Those powerful friends were entrusted with the very secret of her survival.

 

I don't see the potential for either girl to raise an army. I'm not sure where you're getting that. Littlefinger has the Vale army because he is Lord Protector of the Vale. Sansa is not. The Vale army follows him, not her. 

Nope, very much the opposite.  The Vale lords disliked and distrusted Littlefinger; they're only working with him because Sansa vouched for him, meaning that she is the more significant and trustworthy figure, as far as they're concerned.

Edited July 10, 2015 by SeanC

[nksarmi]

Heh. Thanks. Now for my second problem with the Dorwanese knot: in the books Jaime has advance "warning" if that's what you want to call it that Cersei is on trial, and he's well away from King's Landing. Ergo, he himself is not in any *immediate* danger of being arrested by the faith, or being charged with anything himself. However, if he actually arrives in King's Landing in the show, how is he going to avoid being charged with the same crime that Cersei is (this is totally assuming that incest is an actual charge, and not just adultery and treason)? Or wait, IS the show going to have him charged with the crime of incest by the Faith? Is this Jaime's trial by combat in the show? Is Brienne going to come and be his champion in KL as opposed to against Lady Stoneheart?! (which would be totally different and kind of weird, because Jaime IS actually guilty of incest and Brienne knows it - but if it's because she thinks she's failed him and owes him, that's interesting and would give me something to think about for a really long time). 

 

And everything I wrote above? All speculation because of a boat returning to King's Landing. I swear, that stupid Dorne boat... ;-)

That boat is actually driving me insane!

 

I would prefer for any number of other solutions (from Jamie and Bron jumping off the ship and taking refuse in Tarth to the boat going to Slaver's Bay) but if KL is what we get than ok so be it.  I really, really want Trystane to just happen to have poison antidote on him and save Myrcella so the story can advance in a way I can believe, but I doubt the writers are going to pull that rabbit out of their hats (though to be honest, I find a prince of Dorne carrying a wide-range of antidotes around on him at all times very realistic for some reason - as opposed to totally contrived).

 

But anyway, assuming Myrcella is really dead and Jamie and boat go back to KL.....I have to wonder if Trystane gets killed pretty quickly or if he has men to protect him?  Does Jamie plunge into depression because of Myrcella and then seeing what happened to Cersei in the Walk of Shame?  Does he get arrested?  Does he storm the gates of the FM and try to kill them all (I might enjoy this!)?  I mean there are so many options, but none of them are good. 

 

And I'm not sure how Brie can help him if she's protecting Sansa.  Now sure, maybe Brie doesn't help Sansa, but wow would THAT be the biggest wasted plot ever if she doesn't eventually end up helping the girl?  I mean for goodness sake, she spent an entire season watching a window for a castle, doesn't she have to meet up with Sansa at some point and help her?

[SeanC]

My only problem with this is that in terms of the big picture, bringing Sansa back to the North, only to have her turn around and head right back South next season seems...weird to me. I feel like symbolically, the return of a Stark to Winterfell and the North is really momentous and should be more than just a brief diversion and a bit of filler. Particularly for Sansa, who has always felt like the Stark who is the most disconnected from her Northern roots. So seeing her return to those roots and really embrace her identity as Sansa Stark of Winterfell felt like an important step in her journey and personal character development. Even though she did leave Winterfell in the finale, it would seem a little strange to me if her next step didn't involve her staying in the North at all.

The idea that the return of a Stark to Winterfell is a significant thing was pretty comprehensively trashed this season, seeing as Sansa was more helpless than ever once she got there, and the sum total of "the North remembers" was an old serving lady and an innkeep, neither of whom did anything.

Edited July 10, 2015 by SeanC

[MadMouse]

The problem with Jaime's arc in the show is they've changed or just cut so much plot that's tied directly to his character. The white washing of Cersei and Tyrion completely changes the dynamics of his relationship with those two. The lack of backstory concerning Aerys and Rhaegar. No guilt for letting the butchering of the royal family and no realization that he turned into the villain of his fondest memory. Loras not being a badass KG and seeing a mirror for the arrogant SOB he used to be . Cutting Stoneheart and disappearing the Blackfish means he doesn't need to face another one of his failures when it comes to the Stark girls. 

[John Potts]

Hey, has anyone ever considered whether Ser Pounce is a younger brother? That would certainly be a candidate NOBODY would expect!

[Audreythe2nd]

And I'm not sure how Brie can help him if she's protecting Sansa.  Now sure, maybe Brie doesn't help Sansa, but wow would THAT be the biggest wasted plot ever if she doesn't eventually end up helping the girl?  I mean for goodness sake, she spent an entire season watching a window for a castle, doesn't she have to meet up with Sansa at some point and help her?

 

Well this much I do know - she's not close to actually helping her in the books either. In fact, she's kind of spectacularly failing there too. So I wonder if the show has had her encounter both Arya and Sansa who have already been like, "Thanks, but no thanks. But not even thanks" and then had her try one more time only to fail (because she chose the worst moment ever to avenge Renly, but whatever) as a kind of catalyst for a "these oaths are goddamn stupid and I really can't win" moment. And I don't know if I would see that as a "there's no point in trying" message, because the story has definitely tried to show us that those who try to remain unflinchingly honorable when those around you just... aren't, means you're probably not long for this world (Ned). Basically, maybe neither she nor Jaime ever actually find Sansa or Arya in the books to help them, which would definitely be quite ironic.

 

I have always found something kind of out of place about the whole "find Sansa, keep her safe" mission in this particular story because it comes from a character who's unflinching in her vows to the point of annoyance, and a character who wants some redemption, so he basically invents a quest that will bring him honour - they've basically created a standard hero's journey between the two of them, when I think George RR Martin has basically been trying to defy hero's journey tropes where he can. It's not that helping Sansa is not the right and honourable thing to do (it totally was, initially), but it's just the farther they get from Catelyn's death (and in the books, the farther Catelyn gets from actually being Catelyn) and the more Sansa and Arya reject their help (rather vehemently I might add), the less sense it makes. I mean, at what point do you let it go? That's why in the books, I would like for Brienne to reject UnCat and champion Jaime, and in the show I wouldn't mind if Brienne kind of has to backtrack and help him in some other way if that's actually the thing that her heart is telling her to do. I guess that doesn't mean they never find Sansa, but by the time they do, she will have probably saved herself.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Audreythe2nd

[BlackberryJam]

Maybe she gets word that Sansa committed suicide. I mean, Ramsay could push that story and use Myranda's corpse in place of Sansa. If Sansa is dead, that makes him the widower of the last known living Stark.

 

Brienne hears Sansa is dead ....maybe with a near miss of actually finding Sansa, like passing her in the woods or something, then she heads south to hunt for Arya. Maybe even Brienne and Pod are talking about Sansa overhears about Arya being alive, but then Brienne talks about Jaime and Sansa decides to stay hidden. 

Edited July 10, 2015 by BlackberryJam

[Chris24601]

My only problem with this is that in terms of the big picture, bringing Sansa back to the North, only to have her turn around and head right back South next season seems...weird to me. I feel like symbolically, the return of a Stark to Winterfell and the North is really momentous and should be more than just a brief diversion and a bit of filler.

I tend to agree. Sansa heading south and ending the season with Jamie, Brienne, Pod and the BWB was just the best way of showing an example that involved the two biggest character detours in one easy package (Tyrion is more a fast forward past the bloated filler than a detour IMHO).

Personally, I think the anvil drop to Sansa of Jon as Lord Commander of the NW was specifically to get her moving north to the Wall and a reunion with the Stark she started out wanting to have the least to do with (because irony is fun). If they're moving in the direction of the endgame in 20-30 episodes its time to start reuniting these disparate characters and wrapping other lines up completely.

For example, I'm expecting the Boltons and the Nightwatch to be wiped out by the end of the season, the former by Jon, Sansa, Brienne and the Wildlings retaking Winterfell and the latter by the Walkers bringing down the Wall and killing everyone.

One random hope I have is for Brienne to meet the Wildlings, just because I want to see her reaction to a culture which views her desire to be a warrior as perfectly normal and acceptable.

[SeanC]

Maybe she gets word that Sansa committed suicide. I mean, Ramsay could push that story and use Myranda's corpse in place of Sansa. If Sansa is dead, that makes him the widower of the last known living Stark.

I really don't see why he would do that, since:

 

(1)  If Sansa's not in their custody, she would just be expected to re-emerge elsewhere.

(2)  Pretending that she's dead would impede the task of searching for her (e.g., you wouldn't be able to put out a bounty).

[CofCinci]

By pretending she's dead, his motivation could be to track her down to torture/kill her. Since everyone would believes she's already dead, he'd get away It.

[SeanC]

By pretending she's dead, his motivation could be to track her down to torture/kill her. Since everyone would believes she's already dead, he'd get away It.

Like I said, until she's actually dead there's no point in doing that, since it would impede the search and would make him look bad if she got away.

[nksarmi]

Well this much I do know - she's not close to actually helping her in the books either. In fact, she's kind of spectacularly failing there too. So I wonder if the show has had her encounter both Arya and Sansa who have already been like, "Thanks, but no thanks. But not even thanks" and then had her try one more time only to fail (because she chose the worst moment ever to avenge Renly, but whatever) as a kind of catalyst for a "these oaths are goddamn stupid and I really can't win" moment. And I don't know if I would see that as a "there's no point in trying" message, because the story has definitely tried to show us that those who try to remain unflinchingly honorable when those around you just... aren't, means you're probably not long for this world (Ned). Basically, maybe neither she nor Jaime ever actually find Sansa or Arya in the books to help them, which would definitely be quite ironic.

 

I have always found something kind of out of place about the whole "find Sansa, keep her safe" mission in this particular story because it comes from a character who's unflinching in her vows to the point of annoyance, and a character who wants some redemption, so he basically invents a quest that will bring him honour - they've basically created a standard hero's journey between the two of them. And I don't know if this story is standard. It's not that helping Sansa is not the right and honourable thing to do (it totally was, initially), but it's just the farther they get from Catelyn's death (and in the books, the farther Catelyn gets from actually being Catelyn) and the more Sansa and Arya reject their help (rather vehemently I might add), the less sense it makes. I mean, at what point do you let it go? That's why in the books, I would like for Brienne to reject UnCat and champion Jaime, and in the show I wouldn't mind if Brienne kind of has to backtrack and help him in some other way if that's actually the thing that her heart is telling her to do. I guess that doesn't mean they never find Sansa, but by the time they do, she will have probably saved herself.

I think Brie is kind of chasing her tale in the books as well so I'm not really complaining if she doesn't get a better story in the show, but I still feel sorry for her!

I tend to agree. Sansa heading south and ending the season with Jamie, Brienne, Pod and the BWB was just the best way of showing an example that involved the two biggest character detours in one easy package (Tyrion is more a fast forward past the bloated filler than a detour IMHO).

Personally, I think the anvil drop to Sansa of Jon as Lord Commander of the NW was specifically to get her moving north to the Wall and a reunion with the Stark she started out wanting to have the least to do with (because irony is fun). If they're moving in the direction of the endgame in 20-30 episodes its time to start reuniting these disparate characters and wrapping other lines up completely.

For example, I'm expecting the Boltons and the Nightwatch to be wiped out by the end of the season, the former by Jon, Sansa, Brienne and the Wildlings retaking Winterfell and the latter by the Walkers bringing down the Wall and killing everyone.

One random hope I have is for Brienne to meet the Wildlings, just because I want to see her reaction to a culture which views her desire to be a warrior as perfectly normal and acceptable.

On Bolton and NW dying - from your hands to the writers ears - please!  And as far as Brie is concerned, I don't think much would make me happier than to see her among the Wildlings and see her receive honor and respect for the first time in her life (really).  I swear I'm starting to like them better than the whole of the great houses - minus the cannibals of course. :)

[Hecate7]

I don't know if I'd consider it misogynistic. He simply thought she was as faithful to him as he was to her. I can't remember if he brags about how he's more honorable than Ned to Catelyn in the book, but if he did, he finds out he was being played for a fool, which causes him emotional pain. This is especially true in light of all the things he's done for love, and how much he already both hates and idolizes himself.

 

Yes. It would be misogynistic coming from a man who hadn't been completely faithful to Cersei all his life. From birth, he hasn't even had a sexual fantasy about someone else. It's only been Cersei. He defied Tywin and gave up his birhright, his marriage options, and the life Tywin wanted for him as Lord of Casterly Rock, for her.

 

He reconciled himself to the fact that Cersei would marry someone else and have that person's children, by assuming that this wasn't her fault, and that if she had a choice it would only be the two of them. Her persistent infidelity with a series of random people who have nothing in common with him, destroys that fantasy, and it seriously calls into question what he's been doing with his life. It calls into question whether she ever loved him at all. It means there is a whole chapter of Cersei's life that he knows nothing about. I think he felt "assigned" to her by birth, no more questioning their relationship than his own last name. Now that she's been unfaithful and he knows she can lie to him, that whole "same person in two bodies" thing is sort of over, really.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Hecate7

[AshleyN]

One random hope I have is for Brienne to meet the Wildlings, just because I want to see her reaction to a culture which views her desire to be a warrior as perfectly normal and acceptable.

I've always wanted her to meet up with some Mormont women, for pretty much the same reason.

[Chris24601]

On Bolton and NW dying - from your hands to the writers ears - please!  And as far as Brie is concerned, I don't think much would make me happier than to see her among the Wildlings and see her receive honor and respect for the first time in her life (really).  I swear I'm starting to like them better than the whole of the great houses - minus the cannibals of course. :)

The thing that suggests to me that the Boltons are on their way out is to look at the available supporting cast. s5 had Roose and Ramsey, Reek, Myranda and Sansa, plus Fat Walda as a comedic afterthought and compare it to what's left for s6. With Myranda dead and Sansa and Theon on the run you're down to Ramsey and Roose (and Fat Walda) interacting with strangers we've got no attachment to. If Ramsey insists on hunting down Sansa/Theon then they won't even have each other to interact with.

 

Ramsey is only as interesting as the character he gets to torment so the fact they haven't given him anyone new to replace the loss of his three favorite toys tells suggests to me that he's nearing the end of his narrative arc and with any luck his pursuit of those who escaped him will end up being his undoing (Ramsey may be from the North in general, but Theon and Sansa actually grew up around Winterfell itself... it would be total poetic justice if they lured him into a trap and were the ones to deal the death blow to him). That leaves Roose by his lonesome with only a not very bright wife to interact with and what is likely to be a Wildling horde lead by Jon Snow coming for him.

 

That's basically Stannis' boat at the end of s6... once Davos left on his mission, Shireen burned, his wife hung herself and the Red Witch abandoned him he was at the end of his narrative rope with only random strangers to the audience to interact with. Then he died.

 

You can see it too with the Night's Watch. You started the season 5 with Jon, Sam, Gilly, Aemon, Thorne, Ollie, Slynt, Edd and Tormund. By the end of the season, Sam and Gilly were sent to Old Towne, Aemon has died, Slynt was executed, Tormund is back with the Wildlings and Ollie and Thorne both murdered Jon Snow. That leaves Edd, a relatively minor character, as the only member of the Watch we know by name still alive who is not deserving of being Wight food. The moment Jon's gone there's not enough characters in the Watch left to care about... so narratively speaking its time for them to go away... which means horrible death at the hands of the threat they've willfully ignored (Hopefully Edd escapes to warn Jon that the Wall has fallen... I'd like him to live).

 

If not for the fact that we've got Mel and Davos up there too and Brie, Pod, Sansa and Theon likely on the way there, plus the Wildlings close by, I'd say Jon's story would have been narratively finished as well, and perhaps Jon Snow's IS, but we've got all the pieces in place for something greater... perhaps a Jon Targaryan freed from his Watch vows and with an inner circle of representives from all over Westeros.

 

Consider who's in the North on the show and likely either headed for or already at the Wall; You've got Sansa (from the North and heir to the Riverlands), Theon (in spite of everything still technically the heir to the Iron Isles), Brienne (heir of House Tarth in the Stormlands), Poderick (from the Westerlands), Davos (knighted smallfolk originally from King's Landing) and Tormund (de facto leader of the survivors from beyond the Wall). If Bran makes contact via weirwood that adds in the heir of Winterfell to Jon's inner circle to boot.

 

Basically, you've got a who's who of misfit heirs from all over the Seven Kingdoms coming to the revealed True King of Westeros who's about to be raised from the dead. If that's not going to be the start of something amazing I don't know what would be.

 

As to Brie and the Wildlings... that was something I literally only put together in my head as I was typing that comment... I had the image of Brienne the warrior maiden fighting beside Wildling spearwives and that's when it hit me that, in a just world, Brienne should have been born to the Wildlings where she would have been honored and respected as a capable warrior. The Wildlings would be a group that, if they had such things as knights, would certainly have knighted Brienne.

 

And since the Wildlings are now south of the Wall and likely to form the nucleus of any army Jon forms to fight the Walkers... by medieval tradition that means the King is going to make their leaders into Lords and give them lands to rule. If Jamie's arc is to die with Cersei, then perhaps Brienne's can be to find a suitable match amongst one of the new Wildling lords created by King Jon Targaryan; allowing her to be accepted as both a warrior and a woman amongst those people... and that would be an EARNED happy ending for Brienne.

 

So yeah... I like the Wildlings alot too. If Jon is truly dead I think I'm basically gonna have to be Team Wildling on the grounds that, minus the bloody Thenns, they're a lot better people than most of the rulers we've seen in the series (and if he's not, I fully expect the Wildlings will be joining Team Jon until the bitter end).

[loki567]

 

Ramsey is only as interesting as the character he gets to torment so the fact they haven't given him anyone new to replace the loss of his three favorite toys tells suggests to me that he's nearing the end of his narrative arc and with any luck his pursuit of those who escaped him will end up being his undoing

 

For your lips to God's ears. I've gotten nervous about the spec that he'll fulfill LS's role in the show, threaten Brienne and Pod, forcing Brienne to betray Jaime. 

 

I don't think I've hated a character more. And no, it's not a good kind of hate, where the writers have created a character clearly meant to be despised and who the audience wants to see punished (Joffrey). It's the kind of hate that takes me outside of the story, makes me take a hard look at the writers, and really feel sketchy about enabling their sadism boners. They seem to have a disturbing admiration for Ramsey and makes me feel very uncomfortable. I'm willing to bet 10 bucks, that Ramsey's death scene will have an almost heroic, last stand feel to it. 

[Hecate7]

There are so many little brothers in the series. Too many!

 

Yes, but it's meant to be THE little brother, not just A little brother. While Cersei is Queen Jaime or Tyrion are logical choices. Then again, she wasn't Queen when the prophecy was made. Aerys was King. He had three children: Rhaegar, Viserys, and Danaerys. Rhaegar in turn, apparently had three children: Rhaenys, Aegon, and Jon Snow. Jon Snow might be the valonquar. So yeah, there are too many little brothers.

 

I'm also keeping my ears open in case the Faceless Men, Faith Militant, Second Sons, or Brotherhood Without Banners have an office called the Valonquar. Anything is possible.

[DigitalCount]

Technically the Second Sons are all the valonqar of their respective families, if the name is accurate. And adherents to the Faith Militant ("Brother" Lancel) and the BwB already use the "brother" term, so by that account anyone other than the oldest guy in either of those organizations is fair game.

But the main thing for me is that I don't think the prophecy gives us that much wiggle room. Cersei asks a pretty specific question (a question that isn't "How will I die") and given those parameters there's really only one specific person it can be, IMO. If a genie gives you three wishes explicitly, I'm going to need a bit more motivation for her to just start handing out bonus wishes. Luckily, we're in the context of a series where dying makes you more likely to choke your friends and family. Just ask Will/Gared.

[benteen]

Never thought about that with the Second Sons but you're right.  And Tyrion has basically promised them all the gold in Casterly Rock.

[Chris24601]

Never thought about that with the Second Sons but you're right.  And Tyrion has basically promised them all the gold in Casterly Rock.

Which would be quite ironic if the show version of Casterly Rock (whose mines are dry) were in play in the books as well.

[benteen]

Which would be quite ironic if the show version of Casterly Rock (whose mines are dry) were in play in the books as well.

 

It would be like the Twilight Zone resolution.  Literally.  There's an episode like that involving gold...although obviously much, much different.

[MadMouse]

Are we sure valonqar isn't a gender neutral term? Aemon realizes that when it comes to the Prince that was Promised prophecy so could it apply to this one as well? 

[Brn2bwild]

I don't think I've hated a character more. And no, it's not a good kind of hate, where the writers have created a character clearly meant to be despised and who the audience wants to see punished (Joffrey). It's the kind of hate that takes me outside of the story, makes me take a hard look at the writers, and really feel sketchy about enabling their sadism boners. They seem to have a disturbing admiration for Ramsey and makes me feel very uncomfortable. I'm willing to bet 10 bucks, that Ramsey's death scene will have an almost heroic, last stand feel to it. 

 

I'm of the opposite opinion.  I think his death will have all of the savagery that Joffrey's death was never allowed.  It could possibly be through Bran's revenge (a thousand crows attack him) or by dragon.

[Chris24601]

Personally, I want one of the two endings for Ramsey on the show;

 

1) Sansa and Theon lure Ramsey and his starving dogs into a trap where he's maimed (loses an arm or his legs below the knees) and they can't escape. The last we see of Ramsey is as Sansa and Theon walk away not even bothering to look as his starving dogs turn on him and begin to eat him alive. We start to hear his screams and then cut to black... roll credits for the episode.

 

2) Ramsey pulls one of his cocky pompus stunts and makes some big speech about how the two bastard Snows are finally going to face off and see who is the better man, only for Jon Snow to cleave Ramsey's head off so fast and cleanly that it actually remains sitting on his shoulders for a moment as his cocky grin turns to a look of confusion as his body no longer moves to his commands and then to terror and his head tumbles from his body to the ground and the worst part for Ramsey is that the last thing he sees is that Jon doesn't even acknowledge this act as some sort of victory... he just turns away like he's swatted some fly that was distracting him from something actually important.

 

Of the two, I definitely prefer scenario #1, but I'd be perfectly okay with #2 as well.

[nksarmi]

I really want Ramsey to get hunted and eaten by Ayra's feral Direwolf - another reason I'm disappointed wolf dreams aren't on the show!