Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Hecate7]

The Sansa plot wouldn't have been so terrible if they hadn't gone out of their way to make sure she was completely at Ramsay' s mercy. Why would Littlefinger take her there, with no intelligence on the Boltons, and then immediately abandon her with no guard or even loyal servants? Was it really necessary in the show for Littlefinger to go to King's Landing? The audience could have just as easily been let on to his scheme with him remaining in Winterfell.

Why were there no Northern lords staying at Winterfell? I'm not suggesting they needed the complete Manderley plot, but a few glorified extras wouldn't have hurt. They could have upped the tension considerably and made the Boltons hold on the North appear tenuous. This season, the only threat to the Boltons has been Stannis, and he's been a very distant threat. It makes no sense for the Boltons to not advertise Ramsay's marriage to Sansa to their bannermen. How can she legitimize their claim if no one knows she's there?

Where is Roose? He can't possibly think it's a good idea for Ramsay to keep the real Sansa Stark locked away. Sansa isn't friendless Jeyne Poole. He knows Sansa has a powerful ally in Littlefinger. The whole point of Littlefinger making the alliance was that Roose would receive aid from the Vale. It makes no sense for Roose to allow her to be abused this way. They haven't even explained it away by implying he can't control Ramsay or he doesn't know what's going on.

Leaving Sansa no room to maneuver and the Boltons no reason to panic or keep themselves in check sucks all the tension and growth potential out of the story. I think it has hurt every character involved.

 

 

But that's just it. It IS a good idea to keep Sansa locked away. The Boltons don't want her stolen, conspired with, touched, raped, ransomed, or in any way used in any way that benefits anyone but the Boltons. Is it a happy home environment? No. But neither Bolton considers that important right now. Is it a way to build a nice relationship with your wife? No. But it does prevent your wife from running away, or being stolen by a neighbor, or bearing someone else's child.

 

Sansa is not "waiting to be rescued." She picked up that weird carpentry corkscrew. She's plotting something. We just don't know what. That doesn't mean she's stupid. It just means we don't yet know exactly what she's thinking. I don't think she's got the slightest bit of faith in Littlefinger at this point. She had faith in him and that's over. I think seeing the flayed woman got rid of the last bit of faith Sansa had in people.

 

Unfortunately that's going to make things very hard for Brienne when she wants to try to rescue Sansa again. Sansa's likely to spit in her eye, I'm afraid.

[SeanC]

Sansa is not "waiting to be rescued." She picked up that weird carpentry corkscrew. She's plotting something. We just don't know what.

 

Unfortunately that's going to make things very hard for Brienne when she wants to try to rescue Sansa again. Sansa's likely to spit in her eye, I'm afraid.

Yes, she's waiting to be rescued.  There's been nothing to indicate grabbing the corkscrew was anything more than her seizing a potential defensive weapon, let alone that she has some plan that requires her to have a corkscrew.

 

Brienne is the person Sansa is trying to signal with that candle (though she doesn't know it).  Why would she spit in the eye of a rescuer she herself tried to summon.

 

But that's just it. It IS a good idea to keep Sansa locked away. The Boltons don't want her stolen, conspired with, touched, raped, ransomed, or in any way used in any way that benefits anyone but the Boltons. Is it a happy home environment? No. But neither Bolton considers that important right now. Is it a way to build a nice relationship with your wife? No. But it does prevent your wife from running away, or being stolen by a neighbor, or bearing someone else's child.

 

No, it's not a good idea to keep Sansa locked away.  They threw over the Lannisters to get Sansa, supposedly to cement Northern loyalties; keeping her as a tortured hostage would just foment unrest; and it alienates Littlefinger, whose alliance they desperately need now that KL is their enemy.  As it is, they've gotten all of the negatives of breaking with the Lannisters and none of the benefits.

[Avaleigh]

I agree with the criticism of where Roose is in all of this and why they don't at least have a few more throwaway mentions of northern lords they have been trying to or maybe even have won over. Agreed that he should have at least cautioned Ramsay to treat Sansa well even if Ramsay were to ultimately have gone on to ignore him.

[SeanC]

Was it really necessary in the show for Littlefinger to go to King's Landing? The audience could have just as easily been let on to his scheme with him remaining in Winterfell.

In-universe, he left because he wants to get the army of the Vale to attack Winterfell, which would be considerably more difficult to do from Winterfell (though this also implies that he was planning to leave anyway, though he could not have known about Cersei sending for him).

 

Out-of-universe, he left because they wanted Sansa to be raped and abuse with impunity like Jeyne was, since Sansa is there to replace Jeyne Poole.

[Hecate7]

They take orders from Littlefinger just fine, as we see.  And they are responsible to her cousin, and led by powerful lords who are Stark-friendly.  Any reasonable plan of action (like, for instance, the one she's trying to carry out in the books, and Littlefinger's in the show) would involve bringing them into play, or, failing that, attempting to cultivate all the Stark loyalists who apparently exist offscreen in the North.  She does neither, opting instead to become a hostage of the Boltons waiting to be rescued (which is what she is in the plan Littlefinger gives her, not just what happens because she misjudged Ramsay).

 

Yes. They take orders from Littlefinger. Not Sansa. They are responsible to Robin Arryn. Not Sansa. Sansa can't even get a raven to Robin Arryn. Lay off of her. She cannot cultivate Stark loyalists while locked in a room. She did not "opt" to become a hostage. She opted to marry Ramsey to infiltrate and kill the Boltons, and I'm pretty sure the Boltons know it.

 

Sansa cannot use the Vale army. They do not take orders from her. She also cannot use them to make friends or influence people. They're an army, not a diplomatic corps. Besides, this is the North. It's not all that diplomatic anyway.

 

The Stark loyalists, like it or not, work for the Boltons, and are subject to Bolton rule and punishment. What Sansa is learning is that she's pretty much on her own. She is at the point of having to choose between acquiescing and waiting to be rescued, or killing Ramsey and being flayed for it. What she cannot do, is just blaze on through triumphantly. Even Yara Greyjoy and Brienne of Tarth know better than to do that. Sansa does not have a dragon up her sleeve, and she is not a swordswoman, (even if she were it might be more in her best interests to do what she's currently doing), and she doesn't have an army. So I really don't know why people are being so hard on her for trying to solve problems the way people who can't fight, don't have an army, and don't have a ton of money on them, solve problems.

I agree with the criticism of where Roose is in all of this and why they don't at least have a few more throwaway mentions of northern lords they have been trying to or maybe even have won over. Agreed that he should have at least cautioned Ramsay to treat Sansa well even if Ramsay were to ultimately have gone on to ignore him.

 

Why? What's it to Roose? I don't get why people think he'd care what Ramsey does to his wife as long as she's alive and fertile and dressed well for state occasions. I'm not sure anyone in the North would care what Ramsey does to Sansa as long as he doesn't make her eat her fingers.

 

As for all this unrest being fomented in the North: the nearest neighbor is Stannis's camp. See how concerned they are about Sansa? Well, add a hundred miles to that and you have the rest of the North. Look at a map of the North. There's a blizzard out there. Who is coming for the Boltons? Because Sansa's unhappy? I think not. I think they're more concerned with what they're going to eat and how they're going to stay alive for the next ten years of blizzards, than with whether Ned's little girl is sad. In summer, sure. But in winter? I doubt anyone's marching any time soon, except for Littlefinger's (probably doomed) Vale forces, and Stannis's band of lunatics.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Hecate7

[WearyTraveler]

Except none of that was in the show, and there is never any remotely credible reason why Sansa would want to marry the Boltons, because it gains her nothing (as, indeed, once she gets there she becomes completely powerless). The Littlefinger/Lysa comparison is a complete non-starter

 

It's true that Lysa's abortion wasn't included but what LF perceived to be Cat's betrayal was, and in the show it's perfectly clear that LF seduced Lysa so that she would send Cat the letter blaming the Lannisters for Jon Arryn's death, knowing that would spring them to action and get Ned to KL's where LF could get at him.  In the show he married Lysa to gain power he didn't have, so suggesting that Sansa marry into the Boltons so she could get power she didn't have and eventually become the Wardeness (TM LF) of the North makes it a more than apt comparison. IMO, off course.

 

Playing the game means, first and foremost, having a plan that makes some modicum of sense, and demonstrating brains, neither of which she's done this season.

 

 

She had a plan that made sense in the context of Westerosi society: if you want a castle / title, you marry into the family that owns that castle / can give you the title.  For examples see: Cersei marrying Robert, Margaery marrying Renly, Joffrey and Tomen, LF marrying Lysa.  As for demonstrating brains, I think she has.  I think trying to play Ramsay against his father and creating chaos from within is not stupid.  It has worked wonders for LF, her teacher.  Trying to snap Theon out of his Reek persona is also smart.  What s she going to do? Try to convince a Bolton soldier? Seduce the stable boy?

 

I don't see how that last scene could be interpreted as showing her falling for Littlefinger, based on the preceding scene.

 

She freely lets him kiss her now, so, in retrospect, it could be.  My point was that the scene was open, and that your particular interpretation wasn't the only possible one,  ergo, one can't build an entire argument out of it.

 

Because, again, she's supposedly there to avenge her family and manipulate the Boltons, and she is not making the slightest attempt at doing either of those things.

 

She is making the attempt.  When she tells Ramsay that Walda's baby is a danger to him, that's her trying to manipulate the Boltons.  You may think her attempt is not that good, or too dangerous, given who Ramsay is, but you can't say she wasn't trying.

 

 

The Sansa plot wouldn't have been so terrible if they hadn't gone out of their way to make sure she was completely at Ramsay' s mercy. Why would Littlefinger take her there, with no intelligence on the Boltons, and then immediately abandon her with no guard or even loyal servants? Was it really necessary in the show for Littlefinger to go to King's Landing? The audience could have just as easily been let on to his scheme with him remaining in Winterfell.

Why were there no Northern lords staying at Winterfell? I'm not suggesting they needed the complete Manderley plot, but a few glorified extras wouldn't have hurt. They could have upped the tension considerably and made the Boltons hold on the North appear tenuous. This season, the only threat to the Boltons has been Stannis, and he's been a very distant threat. It makes no sense for the Boltons to not advertise Ramsay's marriage to Sansa to their bannermen. How can she legitimize their claim if no one knows she's there?

Where is Roose? He can't possibly think it's a good idea for Ramsay to keep the real Sansa Stark locked away. Sansa isn't friendless Jeyne Poole. He knows Sansa has a powerful ally in Littlefinger. The whole point of Littlefinger making the alliance was that Roose would receive aid from the Vale. It makes no sense for Roose to allow her to be abused this way. They haven't even explained it away by implying he can't control Ramsay or he doesn't know what's going on.

Leaving Sansa no room to maneuver and the Boltons no reason to panic or keep themselves in check sucks all the tension and growth potential out of the story. I think it has hurt every character involved.

 

See? Now I agree with most of this.  I don't think her plot this season was terrible, but I'd say it would have been better had some of these things you mentioned been included.

[SeanC]

Yes. They take orders from Littlefinger. Not Sansa. They are responsible to Robin Arryn. Not Sansa. Sansa can't even get a raven to Robin Arryn. Lay off of her. She cannot cultivate Stark loyalists while locked in a room. 

Er, yes, she can't do that while locked in a room...but she's locked in a room because she went to Winterfell instead of cultivating support in the Vale and seeking to make use of it.  You also miss that the lords of the Vale, as established last season, are far more well-inclined to her than to Baelish; the latter has their friendship only because she vouched for him.  That they're "responsible to Robin Arryn" is irrelevant, because she's supposed to be learning to play the game of thrones, which is persuading or manipulating people to serve your interests, just as Littlefinger did.

 

She did not "opt" to become a hostage. She opted to marry Ramsey to infiltrate and kill the Boltons, and I'm pretty sure the Boltons know it.

By your own logic, she opted to become a hostage.  She went to Winterfell, which is completely in control of her enemies, enemies who clearly know she doesn't like them (which she makes no attempt to hide).  Thus, she is a hostage.

 

Sansa cannot use the Vale army. They do not take orders from her. She also cannot use them to make friends or influence people. They're an army, not a diplomatic corps. Besides, this is the North. It's not all that diplomatic anyway.

The Stark loyalists, like it or not, work for the Boltons, and are subject to Bolton rule and punishment. 

 

You're ignoring that the whole reason the Boltons want her, supposedly, is because their rule is endangered by the lack of support from other Northern houses.  So Sansa could go and rally those Northern houses (the same ones Littlefinger expects Stannis to want to rally to him upon taking Winterfell).  She can make friends and influence people by making contact with them, which she can do from the Vale and/or, after establishing contacts, by going to parts of the North where allies can be found.

Edited June 15, 2015 by SeanC

[Hecate7]

Going to any part of the North right now is not that smart, as Stannis is discovering.

[SeanC]

She had a plan that made sense in the context of Westerosi society: if you want a castle / title, you marry into the family that owns that castle / can give you the title. 

That doesn't make sense, though, because she is the one with the more valuable name (hence, why the Boltons want her), and there are supposedly tons of restive Northern bannermen out there.  What does she gain by marrying into the Boltons?  Nothing, even if Ramsay wasn't a psycho, because the Boltons clearly know she's their enemy, and she herself doesn't make any attempt to hide this.  Marrying into the Boltons is no help at all toward avenging her family, which is again supposedly what she's doing.

Going to any part of the North right now is not that smart, as Stannis is discovering.

Littlefinger's going to, with Vale soldiers who are evidently skilled at fighting in ice and snow.

[Skeeter22]

No one thinks Roose would intervene because he cares about Sansa's well-being. He should intervene because he's not a moron and won't want to explain to Littlefinger why Sansa has been mistreated. It was dumb for the Lannisters to mistreat her, but it's fatal for the Boltons. They need Littlefinger and the Vale. Wouldn't it make any Stark ally wary of dealing with Roose if he can't ensure that the last Stark is being treated with decency?

I think it would have been interesting if they'd had Ramsay torn between satisfying his violent urges and pleasing his father. They've already set up the conflict with Ramsay dealing with the possibility of being displaced by a younger brother, why not follow through? Why not inject more tension into his dealings with Sansa? Make the audience nervous about Ramsay finally snapping. A villain who has no vulnerability isn't very interesting.

[Mya Stone]

Take a couple of deep breaths, guys. Not to inaccurately paraphrase GRRM, but these are fictional characters you're arguing passionately about. Not real people. No one has really suffered. It's not even based on a true story...it's an adaptation. Of a work of fiction. Things change.

You've all stated your points. Numerous times. For weeks. Agree to disagree and move on. We'll have tons to discuss soon enough.

[Hecate7]

That doesn't make sense, though, because she is the one with the more valuable name (hence, why the Boltons want her), and there are supposedly tons of restive Northern bannermen out there.  What does she gain by marrying into the Boltons?  Nothing, even if Ramsay wasn't a psycho, because the Boltons clearly know she's their enemy, and she herself doesn't make any attempt to hide this.  Marrying into the Boltons is no help at all toward avenging her family, which is again supposedly what she's doing.

 

If Winterfell hadn't already been conqured by the Boltons and awarded by the King to them, Sansa would be the heir and there would be no reason to marry Boltons if she had a huge-ass army behind her. But Winterfell legally belongs the the Boltons. The Boltons want Sansa, to prevent other Northern lords from copying their own strategy and taking Winterfell away from them. This has been accomplished. Sansa in the eyes of the North is the heiress to Winterfell. She has Winterfell. Now, if they hear that Ramsey is starving Sansa, or dismembering her, they might march when the weather's good. But for now, Sansa has Winterfell, so, what more can she want?

 

Of course, if Sansa kills all the Boltons from within, nobody in the North will object. Nobody likes the Boltons, and apart from the Karstarks everyone loved the Starks and considers the place hers.

 

Staying in the Vale might have been smarter, but we don't know that for sure, and it might have involved marrying a child, which  I don't think Sansa wanted to do. She is not the Lady of the Vale, and even as Baelish's niece, she was not heir to the place.

[Avaleigh]

This is probably me putting a little too much of book Roose onto show Roose but in the books Roose cautions Ramsay against having himself talked about. I can see him not caring about rape or any unhappiness on that front but I'm not sure that he'd necessarily want a bunch of people whispering about how Sansa is frequently in tears when she appears in public due to the brutality of Ramsay. Roose thinks it'sbetter to be subtle with his cruelty even when it comes to flaying. In one of the books I swear there's a quote that suggests Robb isn't even sure whether or not Roose flays people or if those are just rumors.

[WearyTraveler]

That doesn't make sense, though, because she is the one with the more valuable name (hence, why the Boltons want her), and there are supposedly tons of restive Northern bannermen out there.  What does she gain by marrying into the Boltons?  Nothing, even if Ramsay wasn't a psycho, because the Boltons clearly know she's their enemy, and she herself doesn't make any attempt to hide this.  Marrying into the Boltons is no help at all toward avenging her family, which is again supposedly what she's doing.

 

It makes perfect sense.  Joffrey was King, he had the most valuable name, yet Tywin made the alliance to have him marry Margaery of House Tyrell, why? Because the Crown was in debt up to its ears and the people were restless and hungry in KL's.  One has the title, the other the resources.  Sansa has the Stark name, which would give Boltons legitimacy (but Sansa doesn't know this, as explained below), LF has the army, Roose has the North.

 

Sansa had no way of knowing how many restive Northern Lords there are out there.  So far, none have risen to defend her family, all bent the knee to the Boltons.  She only hears "the North remembers" from an old serving woman, and nothing more.  There are no banner men out there asking to see her, none came to her wedding, no one of any power has made any attempt to contact her, and, more importantly, she wasn't privy to any of the Boltons' conversations about their problems holding the North.  For all she knows, everyone is towing the party line happily.

 

What does the marriage get her? Access.  Something she couldn't have by doing anything else.  There's no Moon Door in Winterfell, but there might be stray knives, or, as it happens, a misplaced corkscrew.

 

ETA: I was typing my response while the mod posted, so, I'll respectfully bow out now because I agree.... fiction.

Edited June 15, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[Hecate7]

Whispering would matter more if any of the Northern lords were in the castle to see what's going on with Sansa. Unfortunately, they aren't. The big difference between the South and the North, is, in fact, all the whispering that happens in the South. Everyone's so urban, living at court and right next to each other, with spies in every house. But the North is a lot more private, as we saw in episode 1. As it is, the nearest neighbors are Bolton loyalsts at Cerwyn. Next nearest are the Bolton loyalists at the Dreadfort. Then there's Moat Caillin. It's 100 leagues from Deepwood Motte to Winterfell.

 

Unless someone gets a raven out to the lords, they won't know anything. At present, most likely the ravens they're getting are ravens from Roose saying, "we're all so very happy to have Winterfell's true heiress in the family. We had a great dinner last night--wish you could have been there. Ramsey loves the new digs and goes hunting every day. Love to all of you, and remember, Winter is Coming!"

 

And that brings me to intelligence. Sansa didn't anticipate being locked in a room unable to even stick a candle in a window or send a raven. But you know who could send a damn raven? Brienne of Tarth. Now, she's not got an army or anything, but she could get a spy into that castle and find out if Sansa's okay. Someone who's already in there doing laundry could tell her something. And she could put that information into a raven from where she is, and send a raven to each of the lords of the North. The Umbers, Manderlys, and Mormonts, etc...might send her some men, if they thought there was a good reason to do so. But right now, Winterfell is behind the Iron Curtain, and nobody's going to find out anything Roose doesn't want them to know. Not unless someone interferes from outside.

 

Sorry--last post on subject---didn't see mod note.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Hecate7

[benteen]

After watching the finale, I don't know what to think.

 

Though I hope a "Jon Snow lives!" campaign starts...

[Cheshrkat]

FWIW, there's an interview up at EW.com where Kit states that Jon is dead dead, and not just mostly dead.  He says he's not coming back.  Of course, he could be trolling or deliberately misleading, but it's there.

 

If that's the case, I hate to think I'm one of those people, but I really don't think I will be watching the rest of the show or reading the rest of the books.  I'm not complaining about them - it's just that before this season, Jon Snow and Stannis were 2 of my top 3 favorite characters.  The only one left is Arya, and she's still so disconnected from the rest of the plot.  I just don't think I'm interested in this particular story any more, because I don't care for any of the Lannisters or the Tyrells, I actively hate the Greyjoys and Martells, and I'm ambivalent at best about the Targaryens - well, about Dany.  I could not care less for Aegon, fake or not. 

[magdalene]

With them fucking up the Jaime story big time and Jon really dead and Drogon dying - I am out.

[benteen]

FWIW, there's an interview up at EW.com where Kit states that Jon is dead dead, and not just mostly dead.  He says he's not coming back.  Of course, he could be trolling or deliberately misleading, but it's there.

 

If that's the case, I hate to think I'm one of those people, but I really don't think I will be watching the rest of the show or reading the rest of the books.  I'm not complaining about them - it's just that before this season, Jon Snow and Stannis were 2 of my top 3 favorite characters.  The only one left is Arya, and she's still so disconnected from the rest of the plot.  I just don't think I'm interested in this particular story any more, because I don't care for any of the Lannisters or the Tyrells, I actively hate the Greyjoys and Martells, and I'm ambivalent at best about the Targaryens - well, about Dany.  I could not care less for Aegon, fake or not. 

 

I understand what you're saying.  That's the risk when you kill off so many big characters.  Joffrey and Tywin's death really hurt the big picture.

[SeanC]

Joffrey and Tywin's death really hurt the big picture.

I really don't see the problem with either of those.  Joffrey, especially, was a character who was thoroughly played-out by the time he died.

[snowblossom2]

With them fucking up the Jaime story big time and Jon really dead and Drogon dying - I am out.

I don't think Drogon is dying, just taking a nap after a long day

[benteen]

I really don't see the problem with either of those.  Joffrey, especially, was a character who was thoroughly played-out by the time he died.

 

True.  But losing the two big villains of the War of the Five Kings really took the air out of events going forward in the last two books.

 

One guy who is coming back...Julian Glover!  Pycelle lives to bumble another day!  With Varys firmly in Tyrion's camp I suspect Cersei will unleash Ser Robert on both Pycelle and Ser Kevan.

 

If Varys isn't involved in destabilizing the Realm, it looks like the show will set him up as the "good" counterpart against the evil Littlefinger.

 

I'll repeat what someone else posted elsewhere, if GRRM had finished The Winds of Winter, we would have a lot less to worry about with Jon Snow.

 

Great, another season with SUPER RAMSAY!  Maybe Sansa will get her revenge but on this show, maybe not.

Edited June 15, 2015 by benteen

[SeanC]

My preliminary thoughts on the various main characters' seasons:

 

Jaime - LOL.

 

Arya - Slow start, but great finish.

 

Cersei - The usual show logic problems, but on the whole this was pretty good stuff.

 

Jon - Brilliant right up until they inexplicably botched the ending.

 

Sam - He didn't quite have a story of his own, but I thought the buildup to him leaving was pretty good, the attempted rape of Gilly aside.

 

Stannis - Started off really good, before it was revealed it was all just a setup for D&D to indulge in her hatred of Stannis to the fullest.

 

Brienne - good start, then a lot of nothing, capped by a truly preposterous scene of Brienne killing a man who's already seriously injured (justice!).

 

Sansa - and I was right, a complete waste (and the idea of her manipulating Ramsay using the Walda pregnancy was a complete bust, as it was indeed just there for her to use as a one-liner).

 

Theon - pretty much had his story hijacked (not that it served the hijacker at all), and the end was super-rushed.

 

Tyrion - eh, fine, I guess.

 

Dany - the writers don't have a particularly great handle on Meereen, in my opinion, but on the whole I thought this was okay.

[Advance35]

I was kind of hoping to get the Varys speech to Kevan but I guess they want more time to build Kevan up as being able to potentially stabilize the realm before removing him from the Game board and that might be done by LF since Varys is on the other side of the world.

 

I was surprisingly on the edge of my seat during Sansa's scene with Theon and Myranda.  Though I maintain Ramsay will swim through a river of blood to get her back.  If Sansa's smart she will cozy up to him and say Reek rebelled on his own, play up to him and try and figure out a way to find her brothers and use Ramsay as protection against the crown, though Kings Landing certainly has it's own problems right now.   Interested to see if they alter the Ramsay/Sansa dynamic in the future.   I think IR and ST have been one of the better acting pairings this season on the show.   House Bolton are good villains and very good militant strategist.  It'll be interesting to see how their alliance with LF will proceed and just how the Sansa factor will effect it all.   She'll be hunted by LF, The Crown, Ramsay and Roose.  Interesting times ahead no doubt.

 

I assume Brienne will kill Stannis in the books or he'll die some other way in the Battle for Winterfell so I'm glad to have that information after all these years.     And not that it was a surprise but now I know Myrcella will not be granted a happily ever after.  

 

House Lannister has hurt a lot of people through their actions and machinations and not given a damn the whole way.    People hate them so much they don't care if it's the guilty Lannisters or innocent one's they just want to see that family suffer.   It's hard to blame them.   I can see where Ellaria and the Sand Snakes are coming from.    Same with Cersei, do they have any reason NOT to hate her, she'd rather give left over food to kennel dogs than the starving people of Kings Landing, can't blame them for spitting on her when she falls.    Though if I were a Tyrell or ANYONE really, I would not feel comfortable in the Red Keep with a more unhinged Cersei and that thing in the armor.

 

And I've speculated a long time  that I thought Jon Snow was dead.   I wouldn't be at all surprised if this sticks especially since Kit Harrington has numerous times reported that he isn't allowed to cut his hair and did just that not too long ago.

[benteen]

Anything is possible but Brienne is so far away from Stannis and not currently in a good position to do anything.

 

If Jon Snow is truly dead, then his storyline is just another version of Quentyn Martell's storyline, just a whole lot longer.

 

The more I think about it, the more dejected I am about this episode.  I find myself grateful for the long break.

[benteen]

If I'm going to go with Emmy consideration for Game of Thrones, then I would go with Lena Headey and Jonathan Pryce getting nods.  Peter Dinklage just didn't get the storyline to warrant another nod and that's no knock on him.

[Hecate7]

I guess I'll watch one more episode to see if Drogon or Jon Snow come back. If they are out....eh. I guess I'll keep watching for Tyrion on the off chance I get to see him ride Viserion. Watch him get given the Quentyn Martell storyline. It would be just like this show.

[Danny Franks]

I actually wish that Jon Snow actually was dead for good, and that they'd spoiled the books. For a couple of reasons. One, it would mean that Kit Harington would be free to actually move on in his career, instead of being bound to this show. Two, it would mean I could let go of the books as well, because Jon being dead would mean that I could conclude the series had lost its way, GRRM had disappeared up his own backside, and there wouldn't be much left to care about.

 

But he's not dead, because not even GRRM is that egotistical as to throw away his life's work on proving to his loyal followers that 'oh, you can never predict what GRRM will do! Anyone can die! He never resorts to cliché!' It's not true. Jon's death and rebirth in the books is the biggest fantasy cliché there is. If GRRM had truly wasted about a thousand pages on a red herring story, then he'd have to be either a genius or a complete and utter moron. Jon's not dead in the show either. I haven't even watched, and I'll tell you that for sure. Kit says he's gone? He's lying, because they seem to think they can hide it from people. Kit cut his hair? He was on Graham Norton a few weeks back, and it was Jon Snow length, along with the Jon Snow facial hair. Melisandre suddenly used the Westeros Teleportation Device to appear back at The Wall. Hmm... let me think... what's going to happen? 

 

Still, it sounds like the writers managed to fuck up the execution of it (if you'll pardon the pun), along with most of the rest of the storylines this year. That's a shame. Predictable, but a shame.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Danny Franks

[Advance35]

But he's not dead, because not even GRRM is that egotistical as to throw away his life's work on proving to his loyal followers that 'oh, you can never predict what GRRM will do! Anyone can die! He never resorts to cliché!' It's not true. Jon's death and rebirth in the books is the biggest fantasy cliché there is. If GRRM had truly wasted about a thousand pages on a red herring story, then he'd have to be either a genius or a complete and utter moron.

 

Having never been OVERLY attached to Jon Snow, I don't think the story would be a waste.  At what point is a character ALLOWED to be killed off.   Is everyone who's come this far in the story untouchable?   Accept if they've done not-nice things that is.   If Jon is dead then his story is the rise of a hero that was cut short.   Maybe the story is Westeros is sealing it's own fate (re: The Others).  

 

IF GRRM ever finishes TWOW or if someone who knows the end of the story tells me Jon is alive, I'm going to think of him as dead.    Not the first good character and won't be the last.

[Winnief]

The more I think about it, the more dejected I am about this episode.  I find myself grateful for the long break.

 

 

Hopefully it will give them a chance to iron out some of the problems-and if season 6 is going tobe more action filled, with more narratives winding down, then that could play into D&D's strengths more, (I think they really were just struggling with AFFC  and ADWD as books, and that fed some questionable decisions on their part just to liven things up/move events forward.)  Also a Stark reunion and the Big Reveal will definitely be a welcome break from the unrelenting bleakness as of late.

[Danny Franks]

Having never been OVERLY attached to Jon Snow, I don't think the story would be a waste.  At what point is a character ALLOWED to be killed off.   Is everyone who's come this far in the story untouchable?   Accept if they've done not-nice things that is.   If Jon is dead then his story is the rise of a hero that was cut short.   Maybe the story is Westeros is sealing it's own fate (re: The Others).  

 

IF GRRM ever finishes TWOW or if someone who knows the end of the story tells me Jon is alive, I'm going to think of him as dead.    Not the first good character and won't be the last.

 

At the point in which his storyline has had no effect on any significant character but himself, and if he's killed off, it means the entire thing has been a waste of time. Jon intersected with no other major character, unless you count Stannis, he has been cocooned away from all other narratives. Thus, if he was meant to die, it's a colossal narrative failure to spend that much time on him.

 

Don't give me the 'GRRM's ideas are bigger than fantasy... he's just telling a story about how things don't always follow standard tropes', because it's frankly not believable. GRRM was telling a standard fantasy story and just lost his way. Jon Snow has had four books worth of destiny and prophecy and subtext dedicated to how important he is. If he's not actually important, then it's not clever storytelling, it's pointless.

[benteen]

Hopefully it will give them a chance to iron out some of the problems-and if season 6 is going tobe more action filled, with more narratives winding down, then that could play into D&D's strengths more, (I think they really were just struggling with AFFC  and ADWD as books, and that fed some questionable decisions on their part just to liven things up/move events forward.)  Also a Stark reunion and the Big Reveal will definitely be a welcome break from the unrelenting bleakness as of late.

 

We still seem no closer to a Stark reveal.  Hopefully you're right though.

[Advance35]

At the point in which his storyline has had no effect on any significant character but himself, and if he's killed off, it means the entire thing has been a waste of time. Jon intersected with no other major character, unless you count Stannis, he has been cocooned away from all other narratives. Thus, if he was meant to die, it's a colossal narrative failure to spend that much time on him.

 

He helped Sam Tarly better himelf and he gave the viewer/reader more information about "The Others."  I could live with getting nothing else from him.  

 

GRRM was telling a standard fantasy story and just lost his way. Jon Snow has had four books worth of destiny and prophecy and subtext dedicated to how important he is. If he's not actually important, then it's not clever storytelling, it's pointless.

 

Well I've never spoken to GRRM, so I can't say he's ever told me what kind of story he is intending to tell.  I also can't say I've read an interview where he says he is telling "A standard fantasy story."  I'll assume you have inside information.

 

IMO it's another case of a story not going the way some want and complaints abound, which is what messageboards are for, but there is still a story worth being told for me, Jon Snow or no Jon Snow.   I don't need good to triumph for a story to be worthwhile.

[Hecate7]

At the moment a Stark Reunion would consist of Sansa and Rickon. I'm underwhelmed.

[Danny Franks]

He helped Sam Tarly better himelf and he gave the viewer/reader more information about "The Others."  I could live with getting nothing else from him.  

 

 

Well I've never spoken to GRRM, so I can't say he's ever told me what kind of story he is intending to tell.  I also can't say I've read an interview where he says he is telling "A standard fantasy story."  I'll assume you have inside information.

 

IMO it's another case of a story not going the way some want and complaints abound, which is what messageboards are for, but there is still a story worth being told for me, Jon Snow or no Jon Snow.   I don't need good to triumph for a story to be worthwhile.

 

Sam is not a main character, he's a sidekick.

 

As for knowing what GRRM is thinking? I've read enough of his work, and enough fantasy in general, to be able to figure it out. I've read enough about the nascent thoughts GRRM had when he started writing the series, I know enough about fantasy tropes to be able to see it. I'm quite comfortable saying that. GRRM has not done anything new, no matter what people claim. He's just taken the Hero's Journey and stretched out the beginning of it over multiple books, and dropped in a load of lifted from history political backstabbing. If he is actually writing a story where he kills the hero before anything of note happens, and just has a load of selfish assholes grub about in the mud until the ancient evil sweeps down from the north (see what I mean? Nothing new) to wipe them out? Then he'll finally have written something new. It won't be good, but I'll agree it'll be new.

[benteen]

As I said earlier, I think they're setting up Varys to be "good" as a parrell to Littlefinger.  I don't think he kills Kevan and Pycelle.  I think Cersei unleashes Ser Robert on them and takes control of King's Landing.

 

I really hope Dany doesn't spend most of the season dancing with Dothraki.  I will say though, one of the interesting things about Tyrion running her kingdom is waiting to learn what Cersei's reaction will be to it.  They are setting up Tyrion, running Dany's kingdom vs Cersei, running Tommen's kingdom.  It's the Dance of the Lions with Jaime caught in the middle.  THAT is an appealing match-up to be sure and hopefully something the show can keep going until the final season.

Edited June 15, 2015 by benteen

[benteen]

I was reading an Entertainment Weekly article with D&D and GRRM about Cersei's penance walk and found a quote that pretty much explains their portrayel of Jaime and Cersei.

 

 

Benioff continued: “I find that fascinating and also true with Jaime Lannister—one of the first times we meet him, he’s throwing a kid out a window. He’s willing to choke his cousin to death to escape from prison. He’s basically completely amoral. Yet then everything shifts [in season 3] when he’s in the bathtub in Brienne and he starts talking about the truth of why he killed the Mad King. Cersei is a much trickier character she’s got more fury in her than Jaime. She’s a complicated woman. But I never saw her as a villain so much as somebody who’s just neurotically protective of her children and somebody who’s been just so abused in her relationships with men—whether it’s her father or her husband. She’s someone who’s furious at the role she’s forced to play and has a lot of anger.”

 

First off, Benioff...YOU'RE the one who decided to have Jaime kill his cousin.  He's the one who decided to make Jaime a rapist when the one thing Jaime doesn't do in the books is abuse women, unlike Tyrion who once smacked Shae across the face because she angered him and participated in the gang-rape of Tyrion (under duress but still).  And surprise, surprise...just like Tywin, he doesn't consider Cersei evil.  He's right in saying she's been abused by various men in her life and has a lot of anger over it and her role in life.  But Cersei is also a psychopath AND evil.  But like Tyrion's crimes, D&D swept that all under the table. 

 

If they read the books and think Cersei is less evil than Jaime, then they really don't have a clue about this show.

 

Here's the link to that article...

 

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/15/game-thrones-walk-of-shame-cersei

Edited June 15, 2015 by benteen

[Bass90]

And Balon is still alive....

[InsertWordHere]

And Balon is still alive....

He won the War of Five Kings on the show! 

[ElizaD]

Balon Greyjoy, the ultimate survivor.

 

It's interesting that Benioff says Jaime is amoral when Cersei is the one who never regrets anything she's done to hurt others and is responsible for things like killing Robert's bastards and trying to send Jaime to kill Arya after the Joffrey incident. I understand Cersei's anger, but she killed her friend when she was still a pampered little girl who also threatened servants with grievous harm: she was always Tywin with a wildfire temper and without his capacity for calculation.

 

My personal ranking of the major plots:

 

1. The Wall: the stabbing was stupider than in the books, but before that the show plot was much more interesting than it had ever been before. The Dragonstone crew contributed to fresh dynamics in the first half and the second half had Hardhome, which was a genuinely exciting moment. Everything felt more relevant and epic, and Jon/Sam/Shireen/Gilly offered an opportunity to see good people who like each other sharing screentime and providing a bit of joy in a miserable world. Even Kit's acting improved, and I'm going to be hugely disappointed if the show Stonehearts him with a "dead means dead" plot change.

 

2. King's Landing: good scenes, good acting, and logical enough, relatively speaking, since a lot of other stuff ended up being dumber than the rise of the Faith Militant. The Tyrells disappeared despite being prominent in the first half of the season, but I guess that's a show tradition now.

 

3. Stannis: the final two episodes were a mess with Stannis burning his daughter and being beaten by Super Ramsay before Brienne kills him for not letting his younger brother usurp his rights, but his crew was great during the Wall episodes and Shireen was perfectly adorable and ultimately heartbreaking.

 

4. Meereen/Tyrion: neither the highs nor the ultimate stupidity of Stannis. A bit of a disappointment, but I imagine it'll be decent on rewatch. The absence of crushing misery helps.

 

5. Arya: mostly just dull, but not as actively bad as Dorne and Winterfell. Jaqen's return was wasted and karma getting Trant was overshadowed by the need to show us yet again that he's an awful man.

 

6. Dorne: B-movie, but at least the bad fight scene offered something to laugh at. Everyone acts like an idiot.

 

7. Winterfell: great acting by Sophie and Alfie, but a disaster that wrecked their characters and was dominated by Ramsay's superhuman awesomeness. Roose didn't even get individual scenes with Sansa and Theon, they had to spend more time on Ramsay and Myranda instead. Manderly was cut, the North Remembers became a useless joke, and the most important thing about the book plot ended up being the rape. Brienne also managed to become more ineffective than in the books where she simply didn't find Sansa: here she found her and wasted all the episodes she spent waiting for a sign by leaving just when Sansa needed help.

[Pete Martell]

First off, Benioff...YOU'RE the one who decided to have Jaime kill his cousin.  He's the one who decided to make Jaime a rapist when the one thing Jaime doesn't do in the books is abuse women, unlike Tyrion who once smacked Shae across the face because she angered him and participated in the gang-rape of Tyrion (under duress but still).  And surprise, surprise...just like Tywin, he doesn't consider Cersei evil.  He's right in saying she's been abused by various men in her life and has a lot of anger over it and her role in life.  But Cersei is also a psychopath AND evil.  But like Tyrion's crimes, D&D swept that all under the table. 

 

I don't think D&D believe he raped Cersei (I think they saw that as "passion" and as an example of a tumultuous relationship), but I agree with the rest. 

 

The problem with their talk of Jaime's amorality is that they still haven't done anything about it. He's not a "good" character now. He's, as far as I can tell, an impotent, pointless character. 

 

I don't mind showing Cersei as flawed, but the way they choose to do this tends to damage other characters around her. The quotes above convince me even more that they did their best to make Loras and Margaery unsympathetic in order to make sure we wouldn't really be that upset with Cersei for doing what she did. Which ultimately just made KL have a lot of interchangeable, unlikeable idiots (and I include Olenna and Littlefinger in that).

 

I also feel like they struggle to see Cersei as anything beyond being a mother, as they did with Catelyn, and with Selyse. It's always easier, and cruder, to reduce female characters to "but I'm a mother" and "a mother's love," and at this point it's become such a cliche...not even a well told one.

[Danny Franks]

And Balon is still alive....

 

Who?

 

Oh, is he on that boat with Gendry and co, drifting about in limbo somewhere?

[benteen]

Well said.  They took away all of Catelyn's complexities and reduced her to a generic "mom" figure.  Cersei cares about her children although with the way she treats Tommen you'd never know.  But it's certainly not her only trait.  Her bitterness and insanity are defining characteristics.  You're right, Pete, that D&D seem to struggle when portraying characters who are mothers are anything other than mothers.

 

Don't even get me started with the Selyse thing.  She treated Shireen like shit during her entire run on the show and was fine with the sacrifice thing right up until it was actually happening.  Then at the last moment, her womb overcame her religious fanaticism and she decided she loved her kid after hating her every second she was onscreen.

 

A problem with killing Jon is that three of the big characters on this show are on the other side of the Narrow Sea.  Brienne, Sansa, Pod, Davos and Theon are all wonderful characters but with the exception of Sansa, none of them are main characters.  Jaime is a main character but D&D have made a mess of his character and kept him in creative limbo.  Just who is going to drive the Westeros storyline for what's left of the Starks?

[Pete Martell]

A problem with killing Jon is that three of the big characters on this show are on the other side of the Narrow Sea.  Brienne, Sansa, Pod, Davos and Theon are all wonderful characters but with the exception of Sansa, none of them are main characters.  Jaime is a main character but D&D have made a mess of his character and kept him in creative limbo.  Just who is going to drive the Westeros storyline for what's left of the Starks?

 

I assume we'll see Littlefinger take a stronger role and perhaps they'll revive the Sansa/Littlefinger relationship again (ugh). I don't think he can drive large story and I can never take him seriously (actually I couldn't before but it's about ten times worse now) after the whole "Oh he had no idea the Boltons were dangerous" routine from Bryan Cogman, but I assume that's where they may go. 

Edited June 15, 2015 by Pete Martell

[magdalene]

I was reading an Entertainment Weekly article with D&D and GRRM about Cersei's penance walk and found a quote that pretty much explains their portrayel of Jaime and Cersei.

 

 

First off, Benioff...YOU'RE the one who decided to have Jaime kill his cousin.  He's the one who decided to make Jaime a rapist when the one thing Jaime doesn't do in the books is abuse women, unlike Tyrion who once smacked Shae across the face because she angered him and participated in the gang-rape of Tyrion (under duress but still).  And surprise, surprise...just like Tywin, he doesn't consider Cersei evil.  He's right in saying she's been abused by various men in her life and has a lot of anger over it and her role in life.  But Cersei is also a psychopath AND evil.  But like Tyrion's crimes, D&D swept that all under the table. 

 

If they read the books and think Cersei is less evil than Jaime, then they really don't have a clue about this show.

 

Here's the link to that article...

 

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/15/game-thrones-walk-of-shame-cersei

Benioff obviously has never read the Jaime or Cersei POVs. If he had he would know that Cersei is no misunderstood and abused woobie but a narcissistic and paranoid woman incapable of empathy. That's what GRRM put into the text.  Into her own POV. Of the twins Jaime is the one who has common sense and empathy. That's also in the text. Not even subtly hidden away or anything.

 

Oh, I am cutting my losses, between the books never getting finished and this last episode being very unsatisfying to me, and the showrunners spouting nonsense in the media - this is all just getting too frustrating for me.

Edited June 15, 2015 by magdalene

[Funzlerks]

The books also made clear that Cersei was always this way. Nothing made her that way. Maybe Joanna dying and Cersei being a second-class citizen due to her gender and maybe Tywin being a demi-monster worsened it all, but she was a bad seed. To me, it always tainted Jaime as he was do in love with someone who was so rotten. I think Robert was the character who suffered the most from changing Cersei for the better. Show Jaime actually seems less idiotic for being in love with someone like Show Cersei.

[Umbelina]

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/06/game-of-thrones-season-6

This is kind of handy and a nice synopsis of :

What We Can Expect from Game of Thrones Season 6
A handy guide to which characters are all caught up with the books.
by

    Joanna Robinson

 

--

I think Sam may move beyond "sidekick" actually, at least in the books.  It surprised me that I cared more about what he was doing than some of the "important" characters in the book...it just felt like his story had promise.

 

Jamie is one of my favorite complicated characters, and the book is excellent with him, however, ITA that the show seriously ruined his character and the beautiful and tragic complexities GRRM wrote.  It would have been SO EASY for them to capture that, but instead they chose to have another rape, for press maybe?  Serious mistake, beyond boneheaded, just a horrible waste of a great character.

 

I don't give a damn about the pirates/vikings and I don't think there is anything the show, or GRRM can do to make me care about them.  They (to me) are more like having a neighbor with many barking dogs, just irritating.

 

Honestly, I know many loved the Dorne story, but I really never cared much about them either.  I certainly liked them more than the pirates, but not by much.  I do get that with Winter coming, that area could become very important to survival, or simply be obliterated by "winter."

 

Ditto Dany's various adventures in various cities whilst learning to rule.  I actually DID like much of watching her learn, and thought it was very realistic, and endless, and though I'm sure it would be like that for a teenager, I certainly don't want to watch much more of it on a show, or frankly, even read it.  I get it.  I don't need to live every single moment of it.  The Dothraki's were actually much more interesting to me, but we better not tread the same ground now that she's back with them.  It's a very misogynistic society, so I will have a problem if they actually accept Dani as a leader, but please George, do not write another 1000 pages on that process!  Just have Dani offer them tons of riches to invade Westeros (although by the time Dani gets there, what will be left?)  If they do go to Dorne, what could it possibly be but all out war?  Dorne and the Dothraki's really don't agree on anything.  Talk about a clash of cultures!  (That would make a stand alone book all by itself!)

 

I've liked Arya's story really, but it's time to either connect her with the rest of the cast, or who really cares?  Is she suddenly going to show up as a Faceless Woman to help out someone in Westeros?  Again, "get the fuck on with it!" is my main reaction.  Her story could also make a good stand alone book.

 

Jon Snow.  I keep going back and forth about what will happen there.  The whole "HE IS DEAD!"  media is actually changing my mind a little bit.  Warging when they haven't been even showing the wolves?  (Oh and let the Twilight team do the damn wolves and get them back in the story!)  I dunno.  Mel is there, so resurrecting is pretty in our faces.  I'm honestly wondering if they will recast a different "resurrected" Jon?  Or perhaps, somehow, he simply becomes a White Walker, leading those troops?  Not a Wight, but a Walker?  They wouldn't really need Kit for that.

 

/random thoughts

Edited June 15, 2015 by Umbelina

[Umbelina]

The books also made clear that Cersei was always this way. Nothing made her that way. Maybe Joanna dying and Cersei being a second-class citizen due to her gender and maybe Tywin being a demi-monster worsened it all, but she was a bad seed. To me, it always tainted Jaime as he was do in love with someone who was so rotten. I think Robert was the character who suffered the most from changing Cersei for the better. Show Jaime actually seems less idiotic for being in love with someone like Show Cersei.

She was raised without a mother.  With Tywin! 

 

She was pretty isolated, and her father detested the dwarf Tyrion, who, by the way "killed his mother (and Cersie's)" being born.  She was close to her twin, as many twins are, but got all of her emotional nurturing from her relationship with Jamie, which most twins don't.  It evolved.  Tywin then separated her from Jamie, who was really all she had.  Then the horror of Robert B. 

 

I actually kind of "get" Cersie too, but I think with her it definitely tilted more to nurture than nature issues.  I still detest Cersie's actions, but at least in the books, I understand where they come from.  The show Cersie barely resembles the book Cersie though, and IMO ruined her complexities, but, oh well.

[benteen]

I'm very much looking forward to Sam's family being added to the mix and that does raise the character's stature on the show.

[magdalene]

There are several reasons Cersei comes across as so "wrong" in the show. One big reason is of course the way Benioff/Weiss are writing her, but the other big reason is that Lena Headey has never read a single word of the books, not even her own POV.

 

I often wonder what NCW is really thinking about the way his character has been adapted. If I remember correctly he is familiar with the source material and has read the Jaime POVs.

 

I dislike Cersei but I loathed her walk of shame both in the book and on the show. There is something about slut shaming that really sets my hackles up. Punish her, yes, but not in that way.