Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Hecate7]

How is killing your girlfriend, killing your own father, marrying a 14 year old, and keeping your siblings' incestuous relationship and the illegitimacy of their children a secret, not gray?

 

Because those things are certainly not snowy white.

 

Just because they haven't made his character unredeemably dark like in the books, doesn't mean he's not gray. (And I do mean unredeemable--in the books he's arranged a murder, intimidated several women, raped a prostitute, decided to kill the brother who saved his life by releasing him from jail, and he appears to have every intention of raping and killing his own sister. He's willing to start a war between his niece and nephew that will get them both killed, even though they've done nothing to him, and Tommen is far too young to have disobeyed his regents and advisors. Practically all he thinks about is rape, murder, and war, except for when he considers hitting Penny or doing something else that's completely evil. Ffrom the moment he left prison he's been everything Cersei imagines him to be).

Edited February 1, 2015 by Hecate7

[SeanC]

How is killing your girlfriend, killing your own father, marrying a 14 year old, and keeping your siblings' incestuous relationship and the illegitimacy of their children a secret, not gray?

(1)  The show had Shae come at him with a knife, thus making it self-defense.

(2)  The show made it very clear that he was forced into it (including having Sansa herself defend him on that score), and turned the whole story into a pity party for him about how his forced child bride might be too immature to appreciate his wonderfulness.

(3)  At no point is his doing that indicated as something wrong (particularly as he's not around during most of that).

 

decided to kill the brother who saved his life by releasing him from jail

Said brother having been lying to him for the majority of his life, as he discovered, about something major.

Edited February 1, 2015 by SeanC

[Constantinople]

(1)  The show had Shae come at him with a knife, thus making it self-defense.

Shae grabbed a knife to protect herself from a trespasser. She never left the bed. Tyrion approached her. You can't claim self-defense while running and jumping towards the danger.

Ben Stone and Jack McCoy would have Tyrion convicted faster than you can say "The people are represented by two separate, yet equally important groups".

[Hecate7]

(1)  The show had Shae come at him with a knife, thus making it self-defense.

(2)  The show made it very clear that he was forced into it (including having Sansa herself defend him on that score), and turned the whole story into a pity party for him about how his forced child bride might be too immature to appreciate his wonderfulness.

(3)  At no point is his doing that indicated as something wrong (particularly as he's not around during most of that).

 

Said brother having been lying to him for the majority of his life, as he discovered, about something major.

 

1, 2, & 3 are still moral gray areas. They are bad actions which are somehow defensible. That is what gray means. The last one may seem defensible but my god what ingratitude. When someone saves your life you're really supposed to return the favor.

 

Indefensible, unredeemable bad actions are not gray, they are black. Indisputably good or kind actions are white. MOST of Tyrion's behavior has been gray, which is the whole reason people like him so much, but in the most recent book, in case you hadn't noticed, he lost most of his fans and the books lost a bit of their edge. Gray Tyrion is fun. Black Tyrion is just dismal and a little dull.

[SeanC]

Shae grabbed a knife to protect herself from a trespasser. She never left the bed. Tyrion approached her. You can't claim self-defense while running and jumping towards the danger.

Ben Stone and Jack McCoy would have Tyrion convicted faster than you can say "The people are represented by two separate, yet equally important groups".

I'm not speaking to finer points of law.  You can't seriously believe that Shae lunging at him with a knife when he (a character the audience has been told to see as a saintly hero) has done nothing more than walk toward the bed and stare at her was not meant to exonerate him of wrongdoing (which, if you read the reviews from the Unsullied, it did).

 

1, 2, & 3 are still moral gray areas.

Only if the show intends for them to be, which it clearly doesn't.  There's not a hint of any moral ambiguity in the Sansa marriage story, for instance, where the bulk of the attention is painting Sansa as naïve and childish for not wanting to marry him, and where all objections she could have to marrying him are dismissed in a scene where Margaery is clearly constructed to act as the audience surrogate.  The show takes enormous pains to elide him having sexual interest in her or wanting to inherit Winterfell, and suggests they're equally forced into it, including having Sansa herself defend him as blameless.

 

The last one may seem defensible but my god what ingratitude. When someone saves your life you're really supposed to return the favor.

He was grateful.  Until he learned that Jaime had lied to him to help facilitate the gang-rape and exile of quite possibly the only woman who had ever actually loved Tyrion.  What are you "really supposed" to do in that case?

Edited February 1, 2015 by SeanC

[Winnief]

Well judging from Tyrion's look in previews for the coming season, I think D&D *do* want to demonstrate that killing his father, (even if the old bastard brought it on himself) has clearly left some marks on Tyrion-it's just unlike the books he won't be in any sense irredeemable.  And as partner to Varys he will be in the grey area because while Varys (unlike outright villain LF) has the greater good of the Seven Kingdoms at heart he's definitely willing to get his hands dirty.  I think that's the direction they'll be taking with Tyrion; that he's not a bad man and there's a deeper purpose in his attempts to overthrow the current regime, but no one's going to accuse him of being a saint or even of being Ned Stark or Jon Arryn.

 

Basically everyone on the show at this point, (except maybe Brienne and Podrick) has at least some moral grey area to them unless they're outright villains.

[Advance35]

Dianna Rigg did a television interview recently and she talked about the new season and how she had to film a scene in a brothel.    This makes me think LF and she will have a meeting in Kings Landing and it's likely that it's LF she is threatening in the promo about how "They'll never find what's left of you",   I really hope the writers give us more insight on the Tyrell/LF alliance.   The nobility is wired to underestimate those beneath them on the social latter, even wiley players like Olenna.

[jeansheridan]

 

I have to agree with a lot of what ElizaD said; the problem is that the villains comeuppance too often fails to satisfy, (i.e. Tywin not living long enough to see things fall apart in front of him or learn the truth about White Walkers and Dragons,) and we don't see enough triumphant moments for the heroes.  I

I think Cercei's walk of shame was pretty horrific.  I felt for her in that agonizingly long scene and I wanted her to be so much tougher.  But why would she be after at least 18 years of ease as a Queen?   Oh she's a horrible person, but that didn't make me like the nuns (or whatever they're called) any better.  Martin made them sadistic rather than just.  I think it is interesting that he finally chose to humanize her.  I think show Cercei has always been more human thanks to Lena's performance and her great rapport with Peter Dinklage.  I know their characters are supposed to hate each other, but there's a warmth between them that I like.  They're siblings.  They will always understand each other.  I love that. 

 

I didn't like ADWD all that much, but I did love that Theon was able to redeem himself just a bit, so I hope that stays.  I think the show runners like Alfie, so I have good hopes that plot piece stays. 

 

And I love love love that Jaime is going to Dorne.  To me that is the best possible change.  It's an opportunity for the show to give Myrcella a personality and maybe some agency (unlike the books).  And a chance for Jaime to have a conversation with his daughter.  So I hope the Dorne scenes aren't all sex and instrigue and the Sand Snakes, but Jaime growing a bit.  And I like the idea that he has a reverse role as The Viper.  When Oberyn showed up in King's Landing, it was all false politeness and veiled threats.  I'm hoping Jaime can be equally smarmy.  Of course he doesn't have his fighting ability anymore, so he'll have to use his brains.  Another thing I liked in the book--Jaime using his head for a change.  I like the idea of Jaime becoming the best possible version of himself, but it isn't the version anyone expected.  Jaime the diplomat.  Jaime the fair leader (like Ned).  Jaime who is unambitious enough to withdrawal from the game of thrones once his family is relatively safe. 

[Hecate7]

I think they'll all survive. I don't fear for any of them to be honest. Maybe Arya could die but I honestly think that's a long shot. 

 

I do agree that the Lannisters we know best will probably die though. Jaime, Cersei, Tyrion, Myrcella, Tommen, Lancel, Daven

(he's the one getting married in TWoW, right?)

--they all seem like they're marked for death. Also, I think the only people who had the nerve to think of House Lannister as above being wiped out are Tywin and Cersei. Kevan, Jaime, Daven seem like they would have/would try to make things right if given the chance. 

 

I just dislike the idea of an entire house being wiped out because of the actions of a couple of members. I've always hated the way Sansa thinks that she hates all Lannisters even though she's seen for herself that they aren't all bad and that they aren't all the same. She saw how different Myrcella and Tommen were from Joffrey and she saw that Tyrion was different from Cersei.

I think Arya will survive no matter what, but I think by the end of the saga she will be the only Stark alive, and at least ONE other Stark will have perished at her hands. Not sure which one, but I have my theories.

 

Agree that no Lannister will be alive by the end, precisely because they are the most numerous and their house is on top at the start of the story. Also no Freys, Boltons, and probably no Targaryens, despite the astounding number of secret Targs. Possibly one Baratheon but only because the survival of said Baratheon looks so very unlikely. Oh, and no Ironborn or Dornish royalty, either--I expect them to all be wiped out completely in the coming war.

 

In the end it'll just be snow, Arya, a tree (unless Stannis and Melisandre cut it down or burn it, which is a distinct possibility)

Shireen, and Jon Snow, standing atop a mountain of bodies. And Arya will be poised to kill at least one of the other two survivors as the curtain falls.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Hecate7

[Winnief]

 

 

I think Cercei's walk of shame was pretty horrific.  I felt for her in that agonizingly long scene and I wanted her to be so much tougher.  But why would she be after at least 18 years of ease as a Queen?   Oh she's a horrible person, but that didn't make me like the nuns (or whatever they're called) any better.  Martin made them sadistic rather than just.  I think it is interesting that he finally chose to humanize her.  I think show Cercei has always been more human thanks to Lena's performance and her great rapport with Peter Dinklage.  I know their characters are supposed to hate each other, but there's a warmth between them that I like.  They're siblings.  They will always understand each other.  I love that.

I didn't like ADWD all that much, but I did love that Theon was able to redeem himself just a bit, so I hope that stays.  I think the show runners like Alfie, so I have good hopes that plot piece stays.

And I love love love that Jaime is going to Dorne.  To me that is the best possible change.  It's an opportunity for the show to give Myrcella a personality and maybe some agency (unlike the books).  And a chance for Jaime to have a conversation with his daughter.  So I hope the Dorne scenes aren't all sex and instrigue and the Sand Snakes, but Jaime growing a bit.  And I like the idea that he has a reverse role as The Viper.  When Oberyn showed up in King's Landing, it was all false politeness and veiled threats.  I'm hoping Jaime can be equally smarmy.  Of course he doesn't have his fighting ability anymore, so he'll have to use his brains.  Another thing I liked in the book--Jaime using his head for a change.  I like the idea of Jaime becoming the best possible version of himself, but it isn't the version anyone expected.  Jaime the diplomat.  Jaime the fair leader (like Ned).  Jaime who is unambitious enough to withdrawal from the game of thrones once his family is relatively safe.

ITA with everything you just said.  LH is going to *kill* during the Walk of Shame-though one thing they noted in the books and I don't know if they'll make explicit on the show is that her situation mirrors Ned's a bit when he was executed in front of Baelor.  Also as SeanC has noted, everything Cersei went through she was trying to inflict on Margaery…it was the classic case of falling into your own bear trap…but damn if I didn't feel for her anyway.

 

And yeah Tyrion/Cersei on the show while incredibly nasty and vicious, (in the most fascinating way,) do feel like *siblings* more than they ever did in the books.  They don't like each other but they are brother and sister and as you say their shared upbringing gives them a certain bond even if they'd prefer it hadn't.  That's what makes it all so compelling and tragic.

 

And Jaime growing into the "just leader" role is definitely one of the few good parts of the last two books and one I hope to see more on the show.  There's been some speculation that Jaime might be the 1000 LC of the Night's Watch…which might actually be what makes him most happy.  Having an honorable cause to fight for he could *truly* believe in.  Frankly, I think it would have been better if he'd taken the black ages ago, like say after Aerys's death and the Sack but of course Tywin would never have allowed that just as Tywin never allowed Tyrion to join the Citadel-which was also a huge mistake.  And of course Tywin insisted on making Cersei a Queen though she was the worst possible choice.  Tywin didn't get a damn thing right about any of his children

[Constantinople]

I'm not speaking to finer points of law.

It's not a fine point of law.

People have a right to defend themselves against intruders.

Intruders don't have a right to attack those people and cry self-defense.

 

You can't seriously believe

As an authority on myself, I must disagree - Olenna Tyrell

 

that Shae lunging at him with a knife when he (a character the audience has been told to see as a saintly hero) has done nothing more than walk toward the bed and stare at her was not meant to exonerate him of wrongdoing (which, if you read the reviews from the Unsullied, it did).

Shae didn't lunge at Tyrion with a knife. She reached for the knife and then pulled back, all the while staying on the bed. Unless Shae had the wingspan of a pterodactyl, Tyion was in no danger until he jumped on the bed towards the knife.

If people want to see Tyrion as a saintly hero, I can't control that. I see him for the most part as entitled hypocrite who was Lannister all the way until he was on the receiving end of the Lannister treatment.

They've definitely whitewashed Tyrion. They've done with all the Lannisters (and many other loathsome characters). If a character does 5 or 10 or 15 shitty things, most are bound to be cut due to time considerations, so the character looks relatively better.

The most egregious, IMO, was changing Jaime's failed escape attempt. On the show, it's just Jaimie winging it (and throttling his TV-only cousin Alton). In the book, Tyrion sends an envoy to negotiate a hostage exchange (including Jaimie), and arranges for some of the men accompanying the envoy to try to free Jaime. It looks a lot like the Westeros version of violating diplomatic immunity (and I'm not sure how it doesn't involve violating guest right). Conceptually, it's not much different than the Red Wedding (so Tyrion tut tutting Tywin in the show about the RW is a little precious).

But even with that change, Tyrion's still an asshole.

[BlackberryJam]

 

Basically everyone on the show at this point, (except maybe Brienne and Podrick) has at least some moral grey area to them unless they're outright villains.

 

Sam.  Samwell Tarly is just a truly good guy.

 

I wish they had made Tyrion's murdering of Shae a little more obvious on the show. Tyrion's an asshole, but he's a funny asshole. I love having him on my screen. I can't wait for the snarky lines he'll be spewing in Essos.  *fingers crossed hoping he insults Daario*

[Hecate7]

Only if the show intends for them to be, which it clearly doesn't.  There's not a hint of any moral ambiguity in the Sansa marriage story, for instance, where the bulk of the attention is painting Sansa as naïve and childish for not wanting to marry him, and where all objections she could have to marrying him are dismissed in a scene where Margaery is clearly constructed to act as the audience surrogate.  The show takes enormous pains to elide him having sexual interest in her or wanting to inherit Winterfell, and suggests they're equally forced into it, including having Sansa herself defend him as blameless.

Sansa in the books also considers Tyrion blameless. She feels bad when he looks at her as if he's a starving child. She feels bad that she can't desire him or love him, and she doesn't see this as his fault at all.

 

However, Tyrion's marriage to Sansa is a feature of his character which renders him unredeemable to modern audiences, even though he didn't have much more choice than she did. He should have died rather than marry an underage girl. He should have gone into exile. He should have done anything rather than perform this inexcusable act which, no matter how much it's excused in both the books and on the show, a modern audience cannot excuse. There is no coming back from it, and most people consider him a waste of skin once it's done. Although great care has been taken to preserve some moral ambiguity about this choice, a goodly percentage of audience members pretty much write him off as unredeemable after that.

 

They would rather see Sansa abducted by the Hound, (who has killed a lot of people, including Mycah) or married to Littlefinger, who literally masterminded Ned, Robb, AND Catelyn's deaths. Or even set up with Sweetrobin. She'll still be redeemable after she sleeps with an 11 year old, but Tyrion's unredeemable because the thought of sleeping with a 14-year-old briefly crossed his mind once he was married to her.

 

In the books it's clear that the author still considers Tyrion redeemable, but I think he's naive. Tyrion might as well have raped Sansa--he's damned for it anyway. He also might as well kill every person he meets from here on out--no one considers him one shade lighter than Tywin, Littlefinger, or Joffrey anyhow. The proof that he IS lighter on the scale is that doing so would be agony for him. It would not be fun, nor would he consider it "acceptable losses." He refrains from doing certain things because he does have a conscience. Unfortunately, all the guilt and agony in the world won't redeem Book!Tyrion. I believe that is why Show!Tyrion is kept more clearly to a gray area. I don't call it white-washing--he still does bad things. He just does them with the best of intentions. That's still gray, folks, not white. The only good guy in this whole story is Samwell Tarly, and I won't bet on him staying that way, either.

[BlackberryJam]

The only good guy in this whole story is Samwell Tarly, and I won't bet on him staying that way, either.

 

Sam for the WIN!

 

I love Brienne for a multitude of reasons, but her "Two quick deaths" scene in the show, while showing her badass side, ignores the remorse she felt in the book when she first kills.  Show Brienne is a little too badass and not enough innocence. Brienne is totally going to be faced with the "Which oath do I betray" issue, same as Jaime, even if there is no LSH in the show.  (And I'm not convinced LSH truly out.) Everyone will want her to protect Jaime because, as a show only friend said, "You don't have your characters see each other naked and bare their souls to each other if it's not a romance."

 

Pod is also a good guy, but I am disappointed in his Sex God status, although I'd be happy if they paired him with Sansa.

 

Dark!Sansa looks like she's going to be more interesting than regular Sansa ever was.  Maybe a Stark will grow a brain!  I have money on the Sansa bathtub scene in the trailer occurring right after she bangs LF.  Ew.

[SeanC]

However, Tyrion's marriage to Sansa is a feature of his character which renders him unredeemable to modern audiences, even though he didn't have much more choice than she did. He should have died rather than marry an underage girl. He should have gone into exile. He should have done anything rather than perform this inexcusable act which, no matter how much it's excused in both the books and on the show, a modern audience cannot excuse. There is no coming back from it, and most people consider him a waste of skin once it's done. Although great care has been taken to preserve some moral ambiguity about this choice, a goodly percentage of audience members pretty much write him off as unredeemable after that.

 

They would rather see Sansa abducted by the Hound, (who has killed a lot of people, including Mycah) or married to Littlefinger, who literally masterminded Ned, Robb, AND Catelyn's deaths. Or even set up with Sweetrobin. She'll still be redeemable after she sleeps with an 11 year old, but Tyrion's unredeemable because the thought of sleeping with a 14-year-old briefly crossed his mind once he was married to her.

 

In the books it's clear that the author still considers Tyrion redeemable, but I think he's naive. Tyrion might as well have raped Sansa--he's damned for it anyway. He also might as well kill every person he meets from here on out--no one considers him one shade lighter than Tywin, Littlefinger, or Joffrey anyhow. The proof that he IS lighter on the scale is that doing so would be agony for him. It would not be fun, nor would he consider it "acceptable losses." He refrains from doing certain things because he does have a conscience. Unfortunately, all the guilt and agony in the world won't redeem Book!Tyrion. I believe that is why Show!Tyrion is kept more clearly to a gray area. I don't call it white-washing--he still does bad things. He just does them with the best of intentions. That's still gray, folks, not white. The only good guy in this whole story is Samwell Tarly, and I won't bet on him staying that way, either.

At no point is Show!Tyrion indicated to be doing bad things.  The show frames him as a hero all the way through.

 

And I really have no idea why you think that about book Tyrion.  The modern audience that read the books reacted to the marriage, in the majority, by calling Sansa a bitch for not kneeling and praising Tyrion for not raping her.

[BlackberryJam]

Can we talk about Oathkeeper?  I think the Two Sword episode made it pretty obvious that Oathkeeper is Lightbringer.  There is no other sword, other than Widow's Wail, which got so much attention.

Edited February 2, 2015 by SilverStormm

[SeanC]

Can we talk about Oathkeeper?  I think the Two Sword episode made it pretty obvious that Oathkeeper is Lightbringer.  There is no other sword, other than Widow's Wail, which got so much attention.

Assuming Lightbringer is a pre-existing sword, the most common theory (other than Dawn, which hasn't been introduced at all in the show) is that it will be a reforging of Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail into a single blade.  A lot of people think Gendry will be the one to do it, since he studied with the two who forged them.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Mya Stone

[jjjmoss]

As a diehard Sansa fan, I agree with SeanC that Tyrion marrying the future Queen of the Seven Kingdoms does not permanently blacken him in that exaggerated fashion.

 

Even though I am against the supermajority he acknowledges, as Sansa rarely if ever annoys me post-Baelor.

[Mya Stone]

I've taken the liberty and made a couple of edits to posts regarding ShowTyrion and BookTyrion. I  think that horse is as dead as the Mountain's mount in the joust against Loras. 

In other words: Don't be the Mountain. 

[Winnief]

Oathkeeper is definitely Lightbringer-yet another reason I think that Brienne and/or Jaime at some point are going up North.

[Hecate7]

At no point is Show!Tyrion indicated to be doing bad things.  The show frames him as a hero all the way through.

 

And I really have no idea why you think that about book Tyrion.  The modern audience that read the books reacted to the marriage, in the majority, by calling Sansa a bitch for not kneeling and praising Tyrion for not raping her.

I keep reading tons and tons of people who think Sansa is a rape victim and that Tyrion raped her in that scene where he, you know, doesn't actually rape her. It's tough logic to follow.

 

I think it's inane to complain that the show doesn't show Tyrion doing bad things. He does tons of bad things. He just does them with good intentions. That is what gray is. In the books he descends into madness and becomes a moustache-twirling villain. I am not disappointed that they avoided this on the show.

[WearyTraveler]

Oathkeeper is definitely Lightbringer-yet another reason I think that Brienne and/or Jaime at some point are going up North.

 

I don't think we can make that assertion so categorically.  Longclaw could as easily be Lightbringer too.  Jon has managed to keep it by his side even though he has been through some very rough challenges and the sword has been given as much space in the books, probably more, than Oathkeeper.

 

It's hard to tell with GRRM, I think, because there's so much going on peripherally that it's hard to separate which events will bear on the main plot and which ones are just there to enhance the story of other characters.

Edited February 3, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[Holmbo]

Sam for the WIN!

 

I love Brienne for a multitude of reasons, but her "Two quick deaths" scene in the show, while showing her badass side, ignores the remorse she felt in the book when she first kills.  Show Brienne is a little too badass and not enough innocence. Brienne is totally going to be faced with the "Which oath do I betray" issue, same as Jaime, even if there is no LSH in the show.  (And I'm not convinced LSH truly out.) Everyone will want her to protect Jaime because, as a show only friend said, "You don't have your characters see each other naked and bare their souls to each other if it's not a romance."

The thing about Brienne though is that she is older in the show than in the books. She's like about 18 in the books right? In the show I see her as an older version of book Brienne. It would be cool if the show gave us some backstory about what she'd been doing before she joined Renly's kingsguard. If she was just of at Tarth being a sword practicing spinster or was in service somewhere.

[Winnief]

I think it's inane to complain that the show doesn't show Tyrion doing bad things. He does tons of bad things. He just does them with good intentions. That is what gray is. In the books he descends into madness and becomes a moustache-twirling villain. I am not disappointed that they avoided this on the show.

 

 

ITA!  Also one thing that's always been 'grey" about Tyrion is that he's clearly fighting for his family's best interests and to support the current regime and he does so in a way that's entertaining and shows a brilliant mind, and he's capable of compassion as well...but fact is he's working for the Seven Kingdoms version of the Evil Empire.

  

His position in the show is similar to that Varys described for Kevan at the end of ADWD of being a good man supporting an evil cause.  His rallying the city's defenses at Blackwater is brave and his strategy was brilliant...but in the end he was working to keep Joffrey Baratheon, the vicious, idiot, bastard born on incest on the throne and Stannis who's he in opposition to, is in fact the rightful King at this time as Tyrion knows damn well.  He sends LF to convince Cat to release Jaime in exchange for her daughters but he was dealing in bad faith there too; after all he doesn't even *have* Arya in custody and while it wasn't his idea to marry Sansa, the odds of him letting her go were always pretty low.  He's depicted as the most sympathetic of the Lannister's, but he was playing for the wrong side until recently and now (however much we sympathize with him on it,) he's a patricide and kin-slayers in Westeros are cursed...

Edited February 3, 2015 by Winnief

[jeansheridan]

 

I think it's inane to complain that the show doesn't show Tyrion doing bad things. He does tons of bad things. He just does them with good intentions. That is what gray is. In the books he descends into madness and becomes a moustache-twirling villain. I am not disappointed that they avoided this on the show.

I would agree, although in the last book, as much as I hated the whole slave saga, I think Tyrion had some redemption.  Being enslaved does that to a chap.  I do think he went mad with rage in the book and then went on a total bender for far too long.  But I sense potential for a comeback. 

 

Regarding Brienne, to me she is the only representative of true chivalry on the show.  I don't know if that means she'll go down in flames eventually, but I love her for staying true to her idea of chivalry and "right". 

 

Her slaughter of those three men was necessary in my opinion to establish her bad-ass credentials.  We needed to believe she could fight a weakened Jaime and hold her own again the Hound (although that was a lovely show surprise and I'm ever so grateful for the showrunners making that change because AWESOME).

And Jaime does promptly remind her that she killed Stark men, not Lannister men and she quickly retaliates that she works for Catelyn and Catelyn alone.  Brienne does have a very narrow sense of mission which is probably dangerous, but it does keep her focused. 

 

I would love to meet her awesome father someday.  I imagine he's a bit Ned-like in that he recognized that his awkward daughter needed something beyond the usual feminine pursuits.  I do wonder who gets Tarth however if she can't inherit.  And she's never mentioned a brother.  Although wouldn't that be kickass if Brienne had a great brother and she had a less involved relationship with him.  A healthy mirror image to Jaime/Cersei. 

 

I will admit the incest thing between them never especially bothered me especially given they live in a society where incest was fairly recently practiced by the elite (in their lifetimes).  The deception around it and the horrific fallout was the main problem.  If Jaime and Cersei wanted to vanish to some remote kingdom somewhere and be happy, I wouldn't mind at all other than Cersei is a horrible human being and I think Jaime deserves better.

 

What would it take to redeem Cersei?  I think I agree with Tyrion that her love for her children is her one great redemption.  If she sacrifices herself for her children, I could see some inkling of redemption.  Except for the fact that she tortures people.  A lot of people.  Okay, not redeemable. 

[BlackberryJam]

Yes, Brienne is older and yeah, they needed to establish her as a badass with a sword. I just wanted a little remorse for killing men, no matter who they were. Killing someone is an emotional thing. I wish we'd gotten a little of that. I did love the bath scene and GC played that vulnerability well.

About the incest, yes, it seems like 20 years ago all of Westeros was "Yeah, Targaryens our kings and queens, sibling marriage, it's all good." And then Robert rebelled because of Rhaegar, who did not marry his own sister. The Rebellion wasn't about incest. But then JC are banging and it's all, "Stain forever on your name, you are the evilest!"

Cersei, yeah...no. She doesn't deserve the Walk, but I don't think anything could redeem her.

[Winnief]

Well, as even Cersei noted the Lannister's aren't Targaryens.  Basically the Targaryens Valryian blood and dragon affinity kinda set them apart in the popular imagination from the rest of humanity and they weren't held to the same rules.  (Which probably wasn't a good thing when you think about it-certainly the Targ incest had to account for a fair amount of the family madness and one reason Jon's so much more...balanced is because they got some fresh blood in through Lyanna's side.)  But the Lannister's however, arrogant they are personally were never seen as magical/borderline gods by the smallfolk like the Targaryens were in the first place-and even the Targaryens had to deal with rebellions brought on by the Faith Militant in protest of the incest.  It's worth noting that no one outside the Targaryens in Westeros practiced brother/sister marriage.

 

The Walk was *not* the way I would have handled Cersei, (instead of misogyny and slut shaming let's do a fair trail for one of her many, MANY actual crimes,) but it's also pretty obvious she's well aboard the crazy train anyway and she is indeed truly evil. 

[Maximum Taco]

I would love to meet her awesome father someday.  I imagine he's a bit Ned-like in that he recognized that his awkward daughter needed something beyond the usual feminine pursuits.  I do wonder who gets Tarth however if she can't inherit.  And she's never mentioned a brother.  Although wouldn't that be kickass if Brienne had a great brother and she had a less involved relationship with him.  A healthy mirror image to Jaime/Cersei. 

 

She has. In AFFC.

 

Galladon of Tarth, Lord Selwyn's only son, drowned when he was 8 and Brienne was 4. She also had two elder sisters, Arianne and Alysanne, but both died in the cradle. 

 

Brienne is currently the last issue of Lord Selwyn, so if she doesn't inherit, they'll probably go looking for one of Selwyn's reletives to take the Lordship of Evenfall Hall.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Winnief]

A couple of VERY interesting links...

 

https://racefortheironthrone.wordpress.com/2015/02/04/quick-analysis-of-the-ur-text/

 

The above isn't THAT spoilery since so much has changed in the planning, but nevertheless it does offer insights and hints to the eventual conclusion.  And I have my own theories which I left in comments.

 

For more concrete info look here...

 

http://watchersonthewall.com/season-five-casting-news-updates/

 

Great to hear Kevan's coming back, and it certainly seems like we'll be getting the Battle of Winterfell in episode 9 or 10.

[Skeeter22]

I've complained about the growing length of the novels, but I'll take pointless travelogues over that proposed trilogy any day. It just sounds really lame. The thought of a power-hungry Jaime does make me laugh. It seems GRRM changed a lot from his original plans.

[Avaleigh]

Nice, there's some interesting stuff to ponder there.

 

So much though for the argument that GRRM wouldn't go there regarding any Stark incest.

[SeanC]

Everybody is clearly significantly older in this telling of the story (perhaps most obvious in Sansa's story, which went from her having Joffrey's baby and picking him and her kid over her parents to her have a preteen crush on him).  Tyrion also doesn't appear to be a dwarf.  I guess all the Jon/Arya shippers out there can feel a bit of vindication.

[Avaleigh]

I don't think it's just the Jon/Arya shippers, I also think it puts/keeps Jon/Sansa on the table as well. The whole point is that GRRM isn't necessarily opposed to the idea of Arya or possibly even Sansa being capable of seeing Jon as something other than a brother and vice versa. I actually think there have been more hints for Jon/Sansa so I'm glad to at least get confirmation that GRRM isn't opposed to writing an incestuous Stark relationship since so many people have claimed that GRRM would never abandon the sibling dynamic that Jon has with Arya and (to a much lesser extent) Sansa.

[Skeeter22]

  I guess all the Jon/Arya shippers out there can feel a bit of vindication.

And all the Tyrion/Arya shippers. I'm sure there are some out there.

I do think that if GRRM goes there, it'll be Sansa and Jon, just based on age and character changes. I hope that isn't something that made it into ASOIAF.

[Winnief]

It's also noteworthy that originally Martin made no mention of Cersei Lannister...and really what would the series BE without the Queen We All Love to Hate?!?

 

On the topic, I'm going to be very interested to see what happens with the return of Kevan next season and to see if he'll play a similar role in the books as the one remaining member of the family willing to stand up to the Queen Regent.  And I'm very hyped indeed about Johnathon Pryce; I think he and Lena could very, VERY good together.

 

I do think that if GRRM goes there, it'll be Sansa and Jon, just based on age and character changes. I hope that isn't something that made it into ASOIAF.

 

 

Well it WOULD make Jon seem more Targaryen wouldn't it?!?  But with this series you never know.

 

I will say this; besides the fact that I'd definitely prefer Jon/Sansa to Jon/Dany, one thing in favor of the former, (though this is hardly conclusive proof,) is that Sansa/Jon is one way for Sansa to be the YMBQ.  And there's no one else in the series, and I mean no one who would be a more dramatic choice for the YMBQ than Sansa because of all the possible candidates, she has the most powerful back story and the most personal baggage with Cersei.  Even Arya never really had any personal interaction with Queen C...but on the show they had Sansa introduced to Cersei in the first episode.  Now again that doesn't mean it will be Sansa, (Martin certainly loves to subvert expectations,) but she is the one for whom the eventual showdown between Queens would be the most compelling-and the one most likely to make Cersei's head explode.  And I can just imagine how awesome ST and LH would both be.

 

Of course it could just as easily be Martin's revisiting Beauty and the Beast with Sansa/Tyrion, and for that matter if poor Shireen survived to adulthood a marriage between her and Jon would make great dynastic sense.  Or even Jon/Margaery. 

 

God I'm getting impatient to see the next few seasons!

Edited February 5, 2015 by Winnief

[SeanC]

It's also noteworthy that originally Martin made no mention of Cersei Lannister...and really what would the series BE without the Queen We All Love to Hate?!?

Cersei's character actually tracks pretty closely to ur-Jaime.

 

 

Of course it could just as easily be Martin's revisiting Beauty and the Beast with Sansa/Tyrion

If there's a Beauty and the Beast dynamic involving Sansa, it would be with the Hound, I should think.

[Winnief]

If there's a Beauty and the Beast dynamic involving Sansa, it would be with the Hound, I should think.

 

True but the Hound is dead while Tyrion is very much alive.  Plus on the show it does seem like they're trying to play up more of a Sansa/Tyrion 'connection' somehow. 

 

Personally I hope they *don't* go there,  I'm just saying it might be Martin's planned end game. 

 

Good point about Cersei being a little like Ur-Jaime...but still I think the former is more...colorful than the latter.  And I know we all prefer the version of Jaime that Martin went with.

 

Tyrion in his original conception interestingly *wasn't* a dwarf...and sounds like he was styled more on well...Tywin.

[Holmbo]

That first outline seems crazy in how different it is.

Also it somehow makes me wonder when he decided on an end game did he have all the characters like they are now? Maybe a reason he is stuck is because he planned for some characters to have certain roles in the end but they haven't grown that way. So he had to introduce new characters to fill those roles.

[Avaleigh]

I kind of love that there are people over at Reddit who are trying to decipher what's behind the black bars on the third page. I'd be lying if I didn't admit to wanting to know.

 

I'm glad that he made the changes that he did but there are some parts of the old outline that I would have liked to have seen. Joffrey getting maimed in battle, that totally different version of Jaime, Catelyn dying via the Others. 

 

I'm really glad that Sansa has more of a role than was first envisioned. Cersei, Stannis, and others seem like they were probably conceived a lot later.

[Lady S.]

What I got out of those crazy original plans is that there were originally only the four Starklings and Jon, Rickon, I always knew you were a useless little feral child.

 

True but the Hound is dead while Tyrion is very much alive.  Plus on the show it does seem like they're trying to play up more of a Sansa/Tyrion 'connection' somehow. 

 

Personally I hope they *don't* go there,  I'm just saying it might be Martin's planned end game. 

The Hound is dead, not Sandor Clegane. And the show's also played up Sansa/Littlefinger by scaling back Sansa/Dontos, maybe she'll have his baby instead of Joffrey's and then come to "bitterly rue" hooking up with Baelish. Apologies for putting that thought into the world, I wasn't really serious, but still think there's more basis for that than Jon/Sansa. A Jon/Dany/Tyrion triangle would certainly make Jon/Dany interesting enough for me. 

 

Also, while most of this is scrapped, his description of the Others and Jon's "true parentage is finally revealed" go a long to debunking "Maybe the Others are as misunderstood as Jaime Lannister" and "Jon Snow is Ned's bastard, just like it says", right? 

[Advance35]

Wow, that outline is incredible in how different it is to what actually came about storyline wise.    Since the original concept was so VASTLY different to what's unfolding in the published story I wonder if his ending has evolved as well.   What sucks for me is that the 5 central characters are NOT my favorites.   Dany, Arya, Bran, Jon and Tyrion.   The only storylines I was especially fond of are Jon's (On and of, currently on) and Tyrion's and that's because he always seemed to be at the center of so much political intrigue.

 

It's clear he wanted Tyrion involved with a Stark daughter and that evolved, as to whether they'll end up together, who can say.  I DO think the show has played up Tyrion/Sansa more than it EVER did Sandor/Sansa.   The parallell between Sansa's lack of a bedding ceremony with Catelyn's, Tyrion's reaching out to Sansa during the Jousting dwarfs (in the book he's WAY to self-centered and embarrased to do that for Sansa) and Sansa reaching for the cup to hand to Tyrion.   I think the show runners have sprinkled the seasons with some very quietly nice Tyrion/Sansa moments.

 

I will say this; besides the fact that I'd definitely prefer Jon/Sansa to Jon/Dany, one thing in favor of the former, (though this is hardly conclusive proof,) is that Sansa/Jon is one way for Sansa to be the YMBQ.  And there's no one else in the series, and I mean no one who would be a more dramatic choice for the YMBQ than Sansa because of all the possible candidates, she has the most powerful back story and the most personal baggage with Cersei.  Even Arya never really had any personal interaction with Queen C...but on the show they had Sansa introduced to Cersei in the first episode.  Now again that doesn't mean it will be Sansa, (Martin certainly loves to subvert expectations,) but she is the one for whom the eventual showdown between Queens would be the most compelling-and the one most likely to make Cersei's head explode.  And I can just imagine how awesome ST and LH would both be.

 

I find book!Cersei MUCH more menacing than Show!Cersei and in the books it's my fondest hope (as a Sansa fan) that the two never meet face to face again.  Cersei is absolutely out of her mind.   The woman contemplated keeping a knife on her person and accosting/murdering Margaery Tyrell in a hallway in the Red Keep.  She's insane.   Sansa's learing to recognize plots but I don't think she's up for Cersei's kind of crazy.

 

In terms of Jon/Sansa, I just keep coming back to Sansa aft, when she's watching House Lannister reward all those who have helped them  and she silently hates Janos Slynt and wishes someone would take his head, but that there are no heroes in the world and than 4 books later has Jon Snow behead Slynt at the Wall.   I just feel like in whatever form, the reader will see MUCH more Jon/Sansa interaction in the future.

 

Though the fact that Sansa's not listed as one of the BIG 5 makes me question her chances of surviving all that's to come.

[Winnief]

In terms of Jon/Sansa, I just keep coming back to Sansa aft, when she's watching House Lannister reward all those who have helped them  and she silently hates Janos Slynt and wishes someone would take his head, but that there are no heroes in the world and than 4 books later has Jon Snow behead Slynt at the Wall.   I just feel like in whatever form, the reader will see MUCH more Jon/Sansa interaction in the future.

 

 

Not to mention the "knights in black" at the Wall.  I am certain Sansa will go North and be re-united with Jon even if it's not the slightest bit romantic it should be emotional. 

 

One thing that makes me hopeful for her survival is that it doesn't feel like Martin's completed her story arc yet and  until he does, Sansa will remain.  THough, of course you're right that she might not be alive when all this is over. 

 

It's clear he wanted Tyrion involved with a Stark daughter and that evolved, as to whether they'll end up together, who can say.  I DO think the show has played up Tyrion/Sansa more than it EVER did Sandor/Sansa.   The parallell between Sansa's lack of a bedding ceremony with Catelyn's, Tyrion's reaching out to Sansa during the Jousting dwarfs (in the book he's WAY to self-centered and embarrased to do that for Sansa) and Sansa reaching for the cup to hand to Tyrion.   I think the show runners have sprinkled the seasons with some very quietly nice Tyrion/Sansa moments.

 

Yeah, and then there's the way they both *knew* the other wasn't behind Joffrey's death without being told.  So I'm not sure where that's going or not but I have the feeling that on the show at least they're likely to meet again.

 

Also, while most of this is scrapped, his description of the Others and Jon's "true parentage is finally revealed" go a long to debunking "Maybe the Others are as misunderstood as Jaime Lannister" and "Jon Snow is Ned's bastard, just like it says", right?

 

Agreed.  It all but confirmed R+L=J AND that the Others while not necessarily 'evil' (they probably look upon themselves as advancing their own race,) are certainly not at all good for humanity and they ARE the ultimate threat in the series.

[Avaleigh]

 It all but confirmed R+L=J AND that the Others while not necessarily 'evil' (they probably look upon themselves as advancing their own race,) are certainly not at all good for humanity and they ARE the ultimate threat in the series.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the "neverborns"?

[Holmbo]

Fun to read that thread on reddit too. Specially since most of the post are of the kind "we shouldn't be doing this" "it's insane". I'm gonna look in after a few days to see if they've come up with something. I'm betting on the ending being different enough for it not to actually spoil anything for certain.

[Lady S.]

Does anyone have any thoughts on the "neverborns"?

It sounds maybe like confirmation of what we see with Craster's son. As in, not born an Other, but made one. Or maybe that was just his original term for wights, since that word doesn't show up. Reddit also says the Others were called the neverborn at some point.

 

I find book!Cersei MUCH more menacing than Show!Cersei and in the books it's my fondest hope (as a Sansa fan) that the two never meet face to face again.  Cersei is absolutely out of her mind.   The woman contemplated keeping a knife on her person and accosting/murdering Margaery Tyrell in a hallway in the Red Keep.  She's insane.   Sansa's learing to recognize plots but I don't think she's up for Cersei's kind of crazy.

IA, I don't see Sansa wanting to ever meet Cersei again, she has no sense of unfinished business there. Sansa taking down Cersei reminds me of wishes for Robb or Arya or Sansa to kill Joffrey, a triumphal Stark revenge on a Lannister just doesn't seem likely. And Cersei does already consider Sansa an enemy and probably a threat (see her passionate rant about making the she-wolf beg for death after Sansa's name was mentioned in council), Marg just represents the YMBQ for the moment because she's right there being a younger queen trying to steal Tommen. Sansa was already in future younger queen position in the first two books, the only reason I wouldn't consider her a threat to Cersei back then is because I think Evil Santa pulled the prophecy out of his ass in Feast and definitely didn't have it in mind in the classic Cersei/Sansa days.  Dany would be the YMBQ to really shock Cersei, as Cersei has not given her one serious thought while she's busy hating the Tyrells, Tyrion, Bronn, Sansa and pretty much everyone else she already knows. Moreover, "Most Beautiful Woman In The World" is practically another one of Dany's titles at this point, right?

 

Not to mention the "knights in black" at the Wall.  I am certain Sansa will go North and be re-united with Jon even if it's not the slightest bit romantic it should be emotional. 

 

One thing that makes me hopeful for her survival is that it doesn't feel like Martin's completed her story arc yet and  until he does, Sansa will remain.  THough, of course you're right that she might not be alive when all this is over.

AU Sansa was probably killed off by King Jaime as her son was Joffrey's heir. This does re-enforce my problems with AGoT Sansa, who was basically just set up as "the bad Stark" to contrast Arya right until her last two chapters. It goes past trope deconstruction to making the character feel a parody. The "betrayal" of her family is still in there in a sense both at the Trident and when she goes running to Cersei, and in the case of the latter it felt more like doing for the sake of a thin "bad Stark" characterization rather than any real development, I'm glad the show changed that as the mistaken trust in the Lannisters is still there without the vastly exaggerated plot importance of Sansa's mistake. (She spilled the beans only an hour at most before Robert died, and Cersei was already prepping her knights for action, while Ned had already warned Cersei in his own way and trusted Baelish to secure the gold cloaks. He was getting himself arrested no matter what.) But by Clash she was as fully dimensional as Bran and Arya, and I feel confident she's not as disposable as when she was just "the bad Stark".

 

Come to think of it, I also think the Jon/Arya parts are still there, just without the outright incestuousness. Their constant cheeseball lovey-doveyness stands out from all the other siblings in the series. I mean, taken out of context...

“Put down the sword first,” Jon warned her, laughing. She set it aside almost shyly and showered him with kisses… The memory of her laughter warmed him on the long ride north.

 

yet she could always make Jon smile. He would give anything to be with her now

 

She would not betray Jon, not even to their father.

 

but it was Jon Snow she thought of most.... She’d tell him, “I missed you,” and he’d say it too at the very same moment, the way they always used to say things together. She would have liked that. She would have liked that better than anything.

 

Arya missed Jon most of all. Just saying his name made her sad.

 

She had never cared if she was pretty, even when she was stupid Arya Stark. Only her father had ever called her that. Him, and Jon Snow, sometimes.

 

What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister?

Not so much that there's anything unnatural in their closeness, but it feels like these two think of each other almost as often as Jaime thought of his sister back in full Cersei-worship mode in the first part of Storm, and the sheer unrelenting cutesyness does make it weirder than any sibling relationship I know. Which is why I never could get into Jon/Arya the way I was supposed to, thinking of it as scaled back incest instead of just repetitive corniness makes them much more interesting to me.

And then there's the fact that not only does Jon compare Ygritte to Arya three different times, but we also have this for Arya/Gendry, which has become one of fandom's most popular ships.

"NO!” Arya and Gendry both said, at the exact same instant. Hot Pie quailed a little. Arya gave Gendry a sideways look. He said it with me, like Jon used to do, back in Winterfell.

And lastly, while it's not a romantic triangle, Jon's love for Arya is driving his dramatic conflict in Dance.

I am really looking forward to a Jon/Sansa reunion, though I imagine there might more excitement on Sansa's part, now that she wants to see the only brother she has left, while Jon would basically be settling for the other sister as better than no family at all.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Lady S.

[Winnief]

 

AU Sansa was probably killed off by King Jaime as her son was Joffrey's heir. This does re-enforce my problems with AGoT Sansa, who was basically just set up as "the bad Stark" to contrast Arya right until her last two chapters. It goes past trope deconstruction to making the character feel a parody. The "betrayal" of her family is still in there in a sense both at the Trident and when she goes running to Cersei, and in the case of the latter it felt more like doing for the sake of a thin "bad Stark" characterization rather than any real development, I'm glad the show changed that as the mistaken trust in the Lannisters is still there without the vastly exaggerated plot importance of Sansa's mistake. (She spilled the beans only an hour at most before Robert died, and Cersei was already prepping her knights for action, while Ned had already warned Cersei in his own way and trusted Baelish to secure the gold cloaks. He was getting himself arrested no matter what.) But by Clash she was as fully dimensional as Bran and Arya, and I feel confident she's not as disposable as when she was just "the bad Stark".

 

Good points all.  I think Martin *was* pumping the "bad Stark" angle a bit with the whole, "she lost her wolf" bit but as time went on his perspective of the character changed.  In the final Sansa chapter of AGOT, what sticks out at the end is a simple but stunning realization-Sansa at this point in time isn't stupid or a traitor-she's a little girl.  And one whose childhood up until now was extremely sheltered. And after that the character evolved in a very different direction indeed; there may now be Six Central Characters than Martin's original plans for Five.

 

And "neverborn" is most likely another term for the Others, (especially given how we now they make new ones!) but frankly I've grown to like "White Walkers" better.  It's so descriptive and well...wintry.

[Advance35]

I also have to admit that her actions in GoT might have been even more understandable to me as the excerpt says Sansa was also choosing her CHILD.  

 

Dany would be the YMBQ to really shock Cersei, as Cersei has not given her one serious thought while she's busy hating the Tyrells, Tyrion, Bronn, Sansa and pretty much everyone else she already knows. Moreover, "Most Beautiful Woman In The World" is practically another one of Dany's titles at this point, right?

 

It wouldn't surprise me if Dany is the YMBQ I just don't think I'd like it.   I'll enjoy Cersei's downfall regardless but I doubt I'll feel any emotional attachment to it.   Dany just nears "Mary Sue" territory for me.   Maybe GRRM will write it in a way that MAKES it compelling instead of the situation and circumstance that being organically so.

 

And one whose childhood up until now was extremely sheltered. And after that the character evolved in a very different direction indeed; there may now be Six Central Characters than Martin's original plans for Five.

 

It's amazing to me that Sansa was supposed to be nothing but a foil for Arya in terms of original conception.   It makes me really appreciate just how amazing Sansa's story is IMO.   The character has taken on such a life of her own.

 

One thing that makes me hopeful for her survival is that it doesn't feel like Martin's completed her story arc yet and  until he does, Sansa will remain.  THough, of course you're right that she might not be alive when all this is over.

 

It just makes me wonder where he plans on taking her with only 2 books left.  He pushed her ADWD chapters back to TWOW because apparently she'll be kicking off a new storyline.......looks like the show will tell me what's next for her instead of GRRM.   As for Sansa's survival.  There's Cersei, The Boltons, The Freys ( Sansa or every Stark that's left, dead), there's the Others, A potential Greyscale Outbreak, to say nothing of her being a wanted fugitive for regicide.  Mix with a Little Baelish and you've got a perilous journey still ahead.  Oy.

[Winnief]

It just makes me wonder where he plans on taking her with only 2 books left.  He pushed her ADWD chapters back to TWOW because apparently she'll be kicking off a new storyline.......looks like the show will tell me what's next for her instead of GRRM.   As for Sansa's survival.  There's Cersei, The Boltons, The Freys ( Sansa or every Stark that's left, dead), there's the Others, A potential Greyscale Outbreak, to say nothing of her being a wanted fugitive for regicide.  Mix with a Little Baelish and you've got a perilous journey still ahead.  Oy.

 

 

LOL, but that's true for every main character!  And Jon is technically dead right now, but we don't expect it to stay that way.  So yeah, I'd say Sansa's in a very dangerous position but not necessarily doomed-she does have to survive at least long enough to "slay the Titan" aka Baelish still. 

 

And yeah, Dany could very well be the YMBQ-its certainly logistically possible but there's just no emotional element to that narrative, (and besides Dany so far has played no role in the deaths of any of Dany's children while Sansa however unwittingly was involved in Joffrey's death.) And while I can see certainly how Dany could hold the throne by the end or co-rule with Jon, I don't fancy the idea myself.  My mother is a GoT fan too and she likes Dany, (probably more than I do,) and she didn't think Dany should rule Westeros.  It doesn't feel like she *belongs* there.  Dany creating a new empire out of Volantis, ruling the Dothraki, or re-settling Old Valyria all seem right but on a fundamental level Dany, (even if she gets better at ruling and learns some valuable lessons,) just feels more Essos than Westeros at this point.  But hey it could still happen, and perhaps the character will develop in a direction that will make her seem more of a palatable Queen to the Seven Kingdoms.  Perhaps. 

[Constantinople]

What I got out of those crazy original plans is that there were originally only the four Starklings and Jon, Rickon, I always knew you were a useless little feral child.

 

Martin realized he was one Starkling short a wolf pack.

 

Robb was too dead.

 

Jon was too busy with ancestry.com

 

Bran was branching into another line of work (Sorry - I couldn't leave the pun alone).

 

Sansa Turncoat was dropping soon-to-be-murdered-by-Jaimie Joffreyspawn

 

Arya was too caught-up in her Jon-Arya-Tyrion love triangle.

 

Someone has to return Winterfell to its former glory.

 

Hence Rickon.

[Winnief]

Martin realized he was one Starkling short a wolf pack.

 

Robb was too dead.

 

Jon was too busy with ancestry.com

 

Bran was branching into another line of work (Sorry - I couldn't leave the pun alone).

 

Sansa Turncoat was dropping soon-to-be-murdered-by-Jaimie Joffreyspawn

 

Arya was too caught-up in her Jon-Arya-Tyrion love triangle.

 

Someone has to return Winterfell to its former glory.

 

Hence Rickon.

 

 

Precisely!  His sole purpose in the story is to be a male Stark heir to rule Winterfell at the end and carry on the family line.  And since that *is* his purpose we can be pretty sure he will make it back from Skagos/HH even if Davos or Osha don't. 

 

Though, actually I hear Martin was influenced by the show's use of Osha a bit and is hoping to expand on her character in Winds if that ever comes out.  In any event, I do think it might be a good thing indeed if the next Wolf Lord of the North is one familiar with Wildling culture for obvious reasons.  And hell, a slightly feral Stark ruler is actually in keeping with the more ancient family lineage.  (Who have some of the mountain clans in their veins remember?!?)  It's still much, MUCH better than being ruled by a Bolton!