Season 3 episode 3 question

[paladyr]

Before Edith's wedding, the Dowager Countess is talking to Lord Grantham and she says:

“Robert, Edith is beginning her life as an old man’s drudge. I should not have thought a large drawing room much compensation.”

Is she commenting in Sir Strallan's modest wealth? Thanks!

[sugarbaker design]

I thought she meant:  "No amount of money is worth being an old man's nursemaid."

[JudyObscure]

I thought that's what she meant, too. I had the impression from the first episode that Anthony Strallen  had been their neighbor forever and that he was pretty much equal in wealth and estate size, and only slightly lower than Lord Grantham in rank.  As Edith says to her American grandmother during her visit, he was perfectly suitable in every way.

 

The Dowager's "drudge," remark was rather silly considering the number of servants Sir Anthony had.  He would have had a gentleman's gentleman to dress him just as Lord Grantham has always had in Bates as well as a huge staff for every other need.  I expect her real concern was that he might be too old to have children with Edith, but there was no real reason to worry about that.

 

I was furious with the Countess and Lord G for discouraging Anthony and playing to his insecurities to the point that they did.

[Badger]

I don't think Edith helped much by telling him that taking care of him would be her life's work.  

[Tetraneutron]

I thought that's what she meant, too. I had the impression from the first episode that Anthony Strallen  had been their neighbor forever and that he was pretty much equal in wealth and estate size, and only slightly lower than Lord Grantham in rank.  As Edith says to her American grandmother during her visit, he was perfectly suitable in every way.

 

The Dowager's "drudge," remark was rather silly considering the number of servants Sir Anthony had.  He would have had a gentleman's gentleman to dress him just as Lord Grantham has always had in Bates as well as a huge staff for every other need.  I expect her real concern was that he might be too old to have children with Edith, but there was no real reason to worry about that.

 

I was furious with the Countess and Lord G for discouraging Anthony and playing to his insecurities to the point that they did.

The point is Anthony was older. Possibly impotent. And he'd get older while Edith was in the prime of her life. He'd physically break down and Edith wouldn't be able to go out to parties, have fun, her life would revolve around caring for him and managing him, even if she wasn't the one to actually feed or bathe him. It was agreed on by everybody that this was a bad match, that no parents or grandparents with sense would want that for their child. 

 

If this were a different kind of show, Robert and Cora would urge Edith to marry him because otherwise she'd be an old spinster hanging around depressing everyone. But this is a light soap, so everyone, even Strallen himself, understands that Edith is making an unhappy marriage. Everyone knew the score. 

[JudyObscure]

If this were a different kind of show, Robert and Cora would urge Edith to marry him because otherwise she'd be an old spinster hanging around depressing everyone.

 

And look what happened.  Edith didn't marry and hung around depressing everyone. 

 

I think it was Edith's decision to make, not "everyone's."   Edith knew that young men were thin on the ground after the war, and that she had never had a serious beau.  She would have spent enough time with Anthony to make a good guess about whether he was impotent or not.  Even without what Mary calls a trial run, women can tell if physical passion is there.  In either case, if Edith chose  the life of a titled woman, mistress of a large manor and the social clout that came with that, plus the companionship of a man she had loved for years, over the unlikely possibility of  hot young guy coming along and giving her a dozen children, then that sounds sensible to me. 

 

In aristocratic society there was often a much younger wife.  She still went to parties and had a social life even if her husband got to the place where he preferred to stay home.  I don't really see much difference in Edith  running Sir Anthony's estate and having their friends for dinner, than Mary's life with the endless evenings sitting up straight in Downton Abbey's drawing room.  At least Edith would get to choose stimulating dinner guests, something Lord Grantham doesn't usually approve of.

[Andorra]

I'm always amazed that Violet and Robert get all the blame for Sir Anthony leaving Edith at the altar. It was him after all who made that decision. Nobody forced him to do it! Edith was clearly better off without a man who would do that to her. 

[caligirl50]

"Everyone knew the score."  Except Edith.

"She would have spent enough time with Anthony to make a good guess about whether he was impotent or not."

Do you really believe this statement?  

[SusanSunflower]

I think if Strallan were impotent we'd have been told ... infertile, too ... both might have been reasons for him to opt-out of / beg-off marrying Edith, but since neither was suggested much less stated, I'm assuming that neither was the case... he was only in his early 50's same age as Robert -- who just a few years earlier had fathered Cora's miscarriage .... 

Since Strallan and his first wife were not "blessed" with children and consequently he was without an heir, ample reason for him to say "damn the torpedoes" and go for a second marriage ... and for Robert and Cora and even Violet to approve wholeheartedly .... 

 

The "large drawing room" suggested Edith marrying for Strallan's ample wealth and impressive estate (ie money) rather than for love ... so what else is new under the sun??  except it ignores the obvious benefits to Robert and Cora of having their most dutiful daughter and whatever grandchildren might arise next door ... 

Edited December 25, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[statsgirl]

I think it was Edith's decision to make, not "everyone's."   Edith knew that young men were thin on the ground after the war,

THIS.

 

The idea that the Crawleys would be opposed to Edith marrying Strallan strikes me as absurd. This was the era where you married with your head, not your heart especially in the upper and lower classes.  For Violet's cohort, even more so.  Edith was a second daughter, she didn't have money to attract men as Mary did, and there were very few single young men after The Great War, and even fewer who weren't damaged mentally or physically.  Strallen was a known factor, he had money and they knew that he was a good guy, and he who lived close by so that Edith would remain in the same social circle and close to her family.

 

The Crawleys should have been celebrating the successful marrying off of Edith, not tanking it.

 

Harrison Ford is 22 years older than Callista Flockhart, his grandchildren are older than her adopted son, but I've heard no one saying she shouldn't have married the old man.

 

 

I'm always amazed that Violet and Robert get all the blame for Sir Anthony leaving Edith at the altar. It was him after all who made that decision. Nobody forced him to do it! Edith was clearly better off without a man who would do that to her. 

I think they deserve the blame for two reasons:  first, they should have been looking out for what is in Edith's best interests and given the state of their world and who Edith was, I think Strallan would have been in her best interests.  Secondly instead of dealing with the issue up front, they played on Strallen's insecurities and low self-esteem to end the relationship.  I think he would have been happy married to Edith and she certainly would have been happier being a married woman who breakfasted in bed rather than a spinster who had to get up and go downstairs.  (Such a sad little line.)

 

I blame Violet more than Robert though. Robert was generally clueless back then and may have genuinely thought that an ideal young man would turn up for Edith even after the War.  But Violet should have known better.

 

But leaving her at the altar was a terrible thing to do to her.

 

The overall situation reminds of the book The Listening Valley by D.E. Stevenson.  Set mostly in the 1930s and early 40s, the protagonist, Tonia, is shy and insecure and overshadowed by her older sister (luckily someone who loves her unlike Mary and Edith).  A much older man (40 years older) falls in love with her before she's twenty and she marries him, partly because she likes him and partly to get away from her toxic parents.  He helps her to come out of her shell and she grows to love him.  He dies after a few years but because of his love, she's a changed person and much better able to be who she is meant to be, and her journey goes on from there.  I guess that's proof that D. E. Stevenson is a better writer than Julian Fellowes.

Edited December 26, 2015 by statsgirl

[ZoloftBlob]

Harrison Ford is 22 years older than Callista Flockhart, his grandchildren are older than her adopted son, but I've heard no one saying she shouldn't have married the old man.

 

Yes but come on, I'd be Harrison Ford's sister wife even now.

[JudyObscure]

I'd be Harrison Ford's drudge. 

 

(I'm going to look for that D.E. Stevenson book.  I love the quiet heroines like Jane Eyre and Rebecca.)

[Llywela]

The point is Anthony was older. Possibly impotent.

Why would anyone assume that a many of Anthony Strallan's age would be impotent? He's only around Robert's age - older than Edith, to be sure, but hardly in his dotage! Many a baby has been fathered by much older men than him!

[Badger]

I think the only person who was really worried about the age difference was Stralian.  It was the fact he was now disabled that was the sticky point for everyone else.  

 

I don't think he was considered a brilliant catch, more like someone you settled for if you were "damaged goods" like Mary or not a social success like Edith.  

[SusanSunflower]

One of the strange things (of many) wrt Fellowe's writing habits is his lack of continuity.  Strallan ( according to Downton Wiki) had been widowed for 2 or 3 years (wife died 1912, show began 1914) and, with his wife, had been a close neighbor to Downton and contemporary of Robert and Cora from the time the girls were toddlers if not before....which would mean that

(a) Robert and Cora likely know why there were no children (childlessness being something that at least Cora and the late Mrs. Strallan would have discussed as Robert and Cora were "blessed" with their 3 daughters) ...

(b) The late Mrs. Strallan was known to Edith as an adult figure while she was growing up and she was likely aware when and how she died and of Anthony's adjustment (just 2 years before the start of the show)

and yet neither of these aspect of this 20-30 year relationship were ever referenced. Did Mrs. Strallan die after a lengthy illness or was she struck down by a galloping fever? Was she a robust womanly wife whose infertility was blamed on her husband -- or -- a delicate flower who suffered a series of miscarriages before her doctor said another pregnancy would kill her!!!! 

I suspect that as with Edith on so many occasions, Fellowes had no interest in Strallen -- except -- we learn

In 1896 - when he was around thirty - Anthony attended a party at Lady Londonderry's and met the Duchess of Marlborough when she arrived from America; he thought that she was "the most beautiful woman" he had ever seen[2].

and

Sometime later that year [1914] but before the outbreak of war, Strallan visits Downton shortly after having returned from the Continent where he had been engaged in high-level diplomatic talks. It is not known what position Strallan has in the British government but it seems an important one him having been sent to Austria and Germany only months before the outbreak of the Great War. Also, from what he tells Edith, he seems somewhat familiar with Kaiser Bill.  

and

 

 

At a dinner party, he saves the day when Larry Grey, former suitor to Lady Sybil Branson, being jealous of her newly wedded husband Tom Branson, spikes his drink out of sheer malice, causing him to embarrass the family at dinner: it is Strallan who exposes the crime and the culprit.

 

 

all of which paints an intelligent and competent individual -- bafflingly at odds with his characterization as a "loser" -- even an embarrassment as a future in-law ...

 

http://downtonabbey.wikia.com/wiki/Anthony_Strallan

Edited December 26, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[SusanSunflower]

The problem is that it wasn't a good story ... it contradicted everything we knew about Strallan and Edith ... that's why it "sticks" and irritates .... because it's so obviously contrived ... because Unca Julian needed some way to keep Edith on the estate ... even if she really wouldn't have let Downton's orbit ... 

I'm guessing the actor playing Strallan (Robert Bathurst) either decided to leave the series or made "demands" Fellowes refused to meet ... but I read nothing on the matter at the time or since ... more Fellowe's "cone of silence" ... because everyone loves Julian .... 

 

eta: Apparently he wasn't "asked back" 

http://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/theatre/538702/Robert-Bathurst-Downton-Abbey-Cold-Feet-interview

Edited December 26, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[ZoloftBlob]

Thanks Susan. I am genuinely curious what the "tell all" behind the scene book will look like and who it will come from....

[SusanSunflower]

and an honorably acquired war wound at that .... compared to any number of horribly mutilated, burned and otherwise scarred survivors of that war ... including the newly introduced "gas warfare" that killed William 

[Roseanna]

SusanSunflower, I disagree. It was really according to what we know Strallan's character, especially his low self-esteem.

First, he believed Mary's lies and didn't dare ask Edith the truth. He never contacted her during the war. It was she who pursued him, not he her. He really believed that she was too good to him and set her free, albeit in a bad way.

If he really had been in love with him *and* had had a self-esteem of a normal man, no displeasure from Edith's family would have mean anything to him.

As for Edith, it was the best thing that could happen to her. Without it, she would have had a very dull life and stayed "poor Edith"

[caligirl50]

Susan Sunflower - Downton Abbey begins in 1912.  

[Andorra]

Actually I always wondered how it happened that Strallan was in the war at all. He was Robert's age after all and the army didn't want him back. So why Strallan?

[Dejana]

Actually I always wondered how it happened that Strallan was in the war at all. He was Robert's age after all and the army didn't want him back. So why Strallan?

 

I was wondering that as well. Maybe he was Robert's age in the sense that they were of the same generation, but Anthony was a few years younger and just able to be accepted for the front lines. If they were neighbors or ran in the same circles, it seems like his war injury would have been something the family should have heard about a year after the war, and they would've known not to invite him around for hunts. Everything about Strallan's return feels like a writer contrivance created for the result of Edith being humiliated at the altar. Sure, it all worked out for her in the long run, but that doesn't mean this story makes much sense upon closer examination.

Edited January 2, 2016 by Dejana

[caligirl50]

Remember Mosley was afraid that he would be drafted and he was 51?  Maybe they didn't have an a cutoff age back then.

[Andorra]

He wasn't 51 in 1916. He was 51 in 1924, so during the war he was between 41 and 45. 

[Featherhat]

Maybe Strallen had more up to date experience? I know Robert and Bates were together in a war (Boer War?) but maybe Strallen served longer/had more useful knowledge/was less "important" (artisto-wise) than Robert.

Edith did make a brilliant match in the end.

It's not so much "why are people upset she didn't end up with Strallen?" But "why did everyone think it was a terrible match at the time?"

1) He's a neighbour who has ample servants to help.

2) His big injury seems to be his arm/shoulder. A lot of men who were still alive in Edith's generation had way worse injuries.

3) He's rich enough to be able to have a nurse/doctor on call if his limitations get worse.

4) The prospect of her marrying a wealthy Marquess was miniscule at that time, given that she'd never been a "diamond" of society and was in her late 20s.

5)If Strallen really was that ill and on the verge of dying then soon Edith would be a wealthy widow and a) not have to depend on Cora and Robert for the rest of her life, b) be able to seek out her own company as she chose.

6)As his wife she'd actually have a life as aristocratic society defined it. Which might not be best for her but her grandmother and parents should at least have given lip service to it. Spinsters were often treated as 3rd rate in their (father's/brother's/nephews) home.

It wasn't so bad for Edith as it would have been a generation earlier, but that makes it all the stranger that Violet was so fully against the match.

Of course the reason was so that there would be one wedding and one failed wedding all in one season. And the start of the Gregson saga, which I think was meant to go on longer but the actor became unavailable.

[Tetraneutron]

All that's true. By the standards of the day, the well-born yet ugly and boring (as she was characterized on the show) second daughter of an Earl probably would consider herself lucky to marry a Strallen. Especially after the War when the ratio of men to women was so skewed. 

 

But we aren't watching a documentary, and we aren't watching a 1920s version of The Wire. We are watching a show set in the 1920s but where everyone inexplicably has 2015 viewpoints. And that's fine. But it means that Robert, the hero, is never going to treat Edith the way a real stuffy traditionalist Victorian-era Earl  would treat his daughter. He's never going to resent her for being a spinster. He's never going to treat her badly and order her to get married because he doesn't want to waste his money on her. He's never going to be shoving her at worse and worse men. 

 

The point is, to show to the audience how undesirable Edith is (since in the real world Laura Carmichael actually is quite attractive) they had to show Strallen was a bad match. So they made him old, ugly, boring, at the lower end of being titled (he was Knight, I believe). The point is to show the audience that Edith couldn't do better. That she's not marrying him based on love or sexual attraction. Of course since the show is being filmed in the twenty first century and Robert is supposed to be sympathetic, he isn't going to say "God I'm glad Edith is going to marry that old bore so I don't have to waste money feeding her." And since Edith is a character modern audiences are supposed to like and respect, she isn't going to actually love this guy, and will sort of ignore that she's marrying him for what little status and security she can get. 

[TheGreenKnight]

And the debate about whether or not Edith was attracted to or in love with Strallen goes 'round. Another reason that plot was a failure.

[Roseanna]

And the debate about whether or not Edith was attracted to or in love with Strallen goes 'round. Another reason that plot was a failure.

Actually I think it shows quite opposite. A bad novels, movies or series are so one-dimensional that they can have one interpretation.

I also believe that in this case different interpretations may be basically due to different values of the audience. To me, the most important matter in life is to development. A person rarely develops if she has security and (so called) happiness. Often it's misfortunes that *forces* her to develop.

[Roseanna]

All that's true. By the standards of the day, the well-born yet ugly and boring (as she was characterized on the show) second daughter of an Earl probably would consider herself lucky to marry a Strallen. Especially after the War when the ratio of men to women was so skewed. 

 

But we aren't watching a documentary, and we aren't watching a 1920s version of The Wire. We are watching a show set in the 1920s but where everyone inexplicably has 2015 viewpoints. And that's fine. But it means that Robert, the hero, is never going to treat Edith the way a real stuffy traditionalist Victorian-era Earl  would treat his daughter. He's never going to resent her for being a spinster. He's never going to treat her badly and order her to get married because he doesn't want to waste his money on her. He's never going to be shoving her at worse and worse men. 

 

The point is, to show to the audience how undesirable Edith is (since in the real world Laura Carmichael actually is quite attractive) they had to show Strallen was a bad match. So they made him old, ugly, boring, at the lower end of being titled (he was Knight, I believe). The point is to show the audience that Edith couldn't do better. That she's not marrying him based on love or sexual attraction. Of course since the show is being filmed in the twenty first century and Robert is supposed to be sympathetic, he isn't going to say "God I'm glad Edith is going to marry that old bore so I don't have to waste money feeding her." And since Edith is a character modern audiences are supposed to like and respect, she isn't going to actually love this guy, and will sort of ignore that she's marrying him for what little status and security she can get.

I agree with you: this isn't a documentary and the story is written to 21st century audience. As is all else in CS.

The question is why many object this story but not others although in them the characters don't behave as they should in the period as the audience would dislike them if they do so. The best example is of course Edith and Bertie's story where happy end wouldn't be possible in the period. But nobody is protesting although it's purely fairy tale.