Some People Are Indifferent To Raymond: Your Least Favorite Moments

[ByTor]

6 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

I suspect the writers didn't think through the wedding tape timing to the same extent as this thread's participants.  ;-)  As for me, any episode with Father Hubley is gold.

I saw some Stephen King movie that Charles Durning was in, and I yelled out loud "noooo you killed Father Hubley!!!"

[KLovestoShop]

What I've always hated was Ray's childish line of "You don't care about me".  He used that line many times, and every time he used it, I would just scream at the TV to grow the hell up.  He used it on the episode when Debra got her hair stuck in the curling iron and he was "ass in seat" at 7pm.  He left without her and once he got to the ESPY's, he realized he screwed up royally.  

[readster]

17 hours ago, KLovestoShop said:

What I've always hated was Ray's childish line of "You don't care about me".  He used that line many times, and every time he used it, I would just scream at the TV to grow the hell up.  He used it on the episode when Debra got her hair stuck in the curling iron and he was "ass in seat" at 7pm.  He left without her and once he got to the ESPY's, he realized he screwed up royally.  

If Ray wouldn't been like that, I would have swung more to Debra's side, but sadly, she also screwed up. She just had to fix that curl, she couldn't just come down and tell Ray what happen. Not like the curling iron was glued to the wall and so the way the episode ended, I wanted to smack Debra when she laughed with: "I screwed up, but I still win!" 

[Guest]

I hate Debra's behavior in that episode.  Yes, she had a valid reason to be late that one time, but they'd made a deal based on the fact that she was ALWAYS late.  She shouldn't have been surprised when Ray did what they agreed he would do!

[Homily]

What I hated about that episode was that it was a typical sitcom situation set up for this one episode.  Most of the time it's Ray who was late (not late when they were getting ready to go but almost always late coming home from work or golf or anything that took him away from his family) or it was Ray who couldn't get his act together to get ready.  The wedding episode comes to mind where Debra gets herself and three kids cleaned up, dressed and ready to go and Ray is still standing in the bedroom in his boxers and needs Debra to help him put his suit on.  So annoying.

[ShadowSixx]

Another thing that annoyed me was "The Angry Familyl" when they went to see Father Hubbly and Frank pointed out that the main problem is that Marie didn't like the fact that Ray & Debra got married and they didn't delve into it, they just had Marie go off on a rant on how the mother's are always blamed. We all knew that was the main reason why Marie mostly barged over all the time because she didn't want to lose her children cause all she had was Frank who insulted her. She didn't want Robert to move out of the house and didn't want Ray to get married.

Also in Debra's rant in "The Angry Family" when Debra said she got a freaksow that set their tent up across the street holds no merit because Debra moved across from Frank and Marie when Ray told her that it would be a terrible idea, yet didn't know what she would get herself into. It's Debra's fault for wanting to move there and not taking any action to prevent Marie and Frank from coming over all the time like locking the damn door.

"The Will" episode Marie and Robert were insufferable because Ray & Debra wanted Bernie & Linda to be guardians of their children if something happened to them. Them coming over to sabotage the whole dinner was ridiculous. It's kind of obvious why they didn't pick Frank & Marie because of their age and Robert is just a mess plus he's a police officer so of course Ray & Debra had reservations in choosing him to be guardians.

"The Walk to the Door" episode was so lame because Ray is acting all stupid because he didn't walk a date he had for the dance so just acting silly all night. Then when he meets his dance date, she tries to play it off by saying she hopes that Ray didn't wait all those years just to tell her that and come to find out in the end she had a problem with it as her father mentioned that Ray's the schmuck that didn't walk her to the door. Then Ray was just dumb when he couldn't think of one thing he regretted doing to Debra throughout the years that he stole Robert's regret.

Another thing that bugged me was when Frank, Marie, & Robert would enter Ray & Debra's house through the kitchen sometimes. Seeing the exterior of the house it makes it look like they are walking by the side of the house to get all the way to the back where the kitchen is. That made no sense, why do all that unnecessary walking? I can understand Ray coming through Frank & Marie's kitchen instead of the front door is because Frank & Marie's kitchen leads to their driveway. So with Frank & Marie's house you can go to the front door or walk up the driveway and knock. It was also weird when they came home in "The Angry Family" episode after Michael's story they all come through the kitchen instead of the door leading to the garage. That door in the kitchen leads to the backyard for Ray & Debra's house.

Edited June 15, 2016 by ShadowSixx

[ByTor]

5 hours ago, ShadowSixx said:

"The Walk to the Door" episode was so lame because Ray is acting all stupid because he didn't walk a date he had for the dance so just acting silly all night. Then when he meets his dance date, she tries to play it off by saying she hopes that Ray didn't wait all those years just to tell her that and come to find out in the end she had a problem with it as her father mentioned that Ray's the schmuck that didn't walk her to the door.

Interesting, I never looked at at it that way!  I always assumed Elizabeth truly didn't remember the non walk to the door but or some reason her father held a grudge about it.

[ShadowSixx]

Elizabeth's face kind of gave it away when Ray was confronting her lol.

[CherryAmes]

Quote

 

"The Will" episode Marie and Robert were insufferable because Ray & Debra wanted Bernie & Linda to be guardians of their children if something happened to them. Them coming over to sabotage the whole dinner was ridiculous. It's kind of obvious why they didn't pick Frank & Marie because of their age and Robert is just a mess plus he's a police officer so of course Ray & Debra had reservations in choosing him to be guardians.

It would have been nice if they'd actually ever talked about Robert, they make it sound like they considered him but they didn't. They leapt right to Bernie and Linda after they dismissed their parents as potential guardians. 

Quote

"The Walk to the Door" episode was so lame because Ray is acting all stupid because he didn't walk a date he had for the dance so just acting silly all night.

Not a favourite episode of mine but I have to watch it when it comes on just for the scene where Robert is doing the bunny hop.  That kills me every time.

Edited June 16, 2016 by CherryAmes

[ShadowSixx]

Would you really think of Robert as someone who's a guardian to your children. He was a single man at the time with a dangerous job of being a police officer. Robert would be very low on my list as well and it's not because he was single but because he is a police officer and who knows what would happen to him while out on the job. 

[Homily]

Quote

It would have been nice if they'd actually ever talked about Robert, they make it sound like they considered him but they didn't. They leapt right to Bernie and Linda after they dismissed their parents as potential guardians. 

That always bothered me too.  I mean I do get that they needed to pick Bernie and Linda to set up the rest of the episode but it still bothered me that (a) they act like they actually discussed Robert as a possible guardian when they didn't even mention him and (b) that they assumed family friends would even want to take on the guardianship of 3 children. It's asking an awful lot of anyone to do that let alone people who are not even related to you!

Quote

Would you really think of Robert as someone who's a guardian to your children. He was a single man at the time with a dangerous job of being a police officer. Robert would be very low on my list as well and it's not because he was single but because he is a police officer and who knows what would happen to him while out on the job. 

I've got lots of family members in the military and I don't think they'd be unfit guardians for my kids just because there is a greater potential for risk on the job.  Robert was always portrayed as a loving and caring uncle that should have been enough reason to choose him at the very least as their second choice when Bernie and Linda turned them down.

[ShadowSixx]

In Ray's Ring, I didn't like that after Ray came home, Marie comes over and is just giddy that another woman was hitting on Ray and did like that Ray bascially told Marie that it's not going to happen and he's not leaving Debra, but then Marie says that Debra may now want to start putting on some mascara. 

Also same episode Debra is upset with Ray and says she's stuck at home with the kids while he's off flirting with other women. Ray in no way flirted with that woman cause as soon as she invited him to have a drink at the bar, Ray immediately told her that he's married. Ray could have also not make it seem like he liked it when he was discussing it with Debra and telling her that she's jealous. 

They were both acting silly but I will point out that I like that Ray is committed to Debra, especially when he told Marie.

[CherryAmes]

That's like the "walk to the door" episode where they are all in the car heading to a wedding and Marie talks about the way Ray was with girls when he was  a teenager "he was picky then".   

[qtpye]

On 6/21/2016 at 3:40 PM, ShadowSixx said:

Marie comes over and is just giddy that another woman was hitting on Ray and did like that Ray bascially told Marie that it's not going to happen and he's not leaving Debra, but then Marie says that Debra may now want to start putting on some mascara. 

How bizarre is this?  It is one thing to be happy that you raised a handsome and attractive guy, but why would you be so happy that your married son got hit on?

Did Marie believe that if Ray left Debra, that there would be a giant line of women at his door?  Any woman interested in Ray would be put off by his mother.

I heard the Mama's boy syndrome, that is not uncommon in southern Italy, occurs because a wife feels ignored by her spouse.  I wonder if this was the case with Marie, though I never understood why Ray was her favorite.

[CherryAmes]

7 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Did Marie believe that if Ray left Debra, that there would be a giant line of women at his door?

I think she did.  She also seemed to be under the illusion that if Ray and Debra split up Ray would get the kids.  I can't remember which episode she says that in but she comes right out and says (paraphrased) "If you and Debra split up you and I get the kids".  Yeah, like Debra would have given up custody and Ray would have wanted it!  So not going to happen.  If Marie had ever succeeded in pushing Debra out of the family circle she would also have been pushing out her grandkids.

[ByTor]

23 hours ago, qtpye said:

I heard the Mama's boy syndrome, that is not uncommon in southern Italy, occurs because a wife feels ignored by her spouse.  I wonder if this was the case with Marie, though I never understood why Ray was her favorite.

That's probably safe to assume, being that Frank was a huge jackass.  As to why Ray is the favorite...because 1) Roberts was an "oopsie" before marriage and 2) Ray was the baby.

[ShadowSixx]

It always seems the first born is always the "practice" child if you have more than 1 child. I know I have 5 siblings and I'm the second oldest. The first 3 my mother was strict as hell with us especially with the oldest while the 2 youngest was spoiled rotten by my mother. I don't know why, but I wouldn't say my mom had a favorite though. It seems that parents lighten up on their parenting when it comes to the youngest or if they try different ways of parenting, I don't know what it is because I don't have kids.

I'm thinking finances played a part because when we were young, my mom didn't make a lot of money so maybe it's why she was strict and didn't buy us everything we wanted (we got some stuff don't get me wrong) and couldn't get us name brand stuff but when the two youngest came around she made money and brought them stuff that they asked for name brand and everything.

Edited June 26, 2016 by ShadowSixx

[CherryAmes]

On 6/24/2016 at 9:07 AM, ByTor said:

Ray was the baby.

I wonder if Ray's position as favoured child  would have changed if Marie had gotten her way and they'd had a third child.  IME it's almost always the oldest or youngest who is favoured - rarely the middle kid.

[qtpye]

18 hours ago, ShadowSixx said:

I'm thinking finances played a part because when we were young, my mom didn't make a lot of money so maybe it's why she was strict and didn't buy us everything we wanted (we got some stuff don't get me wrong) and couldn't get us name brand stuff but when the two youngest came around she made money and brought them stuff that they asked for name brand and everything.

I was the oldest child and remember getting one present for Christmas that was a toy (the rest were useful things like clothes and not trivial)  My younger brother had a fit because he thought he would not get a $300 gaming system one holiday.  The funny thing is my father went out on Christmas eve and waited three hours in line, so he could have that system for Christmas.  My parents would have never done that for me.

[BogoGog24]

That sounds like something that would happen to Ray and Robert lol! Except Robert probably wouldn't have even gotten a toy at all, like maybe Marie bought it for him and then forgot to give it to him like the pair of shoes she forgot about. 

[CherryAmes]

Well they did remember to give him shoes at least once though!  In one of my favourite scenes, the one in the Christmas episode about the records when Robert describes how he came to wreck Frank's jazz records, Robert says:

Quote

I wanted the hot wheels race track set so bad. I would see those commercials, I could see myself setting up that beautiful bright orange track with the maroon connectors. And you know what was under the tree waiting for me? Custom-order corrective shoes.

So on the subject of playing favourites, Ray gets hot wheels, Robert gets shoes.  Poor Robert!

Edited June 28, 2016 by CherryAmes

[ByTor]

I love Robert talking about the happy brotherless boy on the Hot Wheels box.

[NutMeg]

Yeah, I may end up being chased from here, but truly, I don't see this as a comedy at all, to me this show has always read rather tragic actually. And when I say tragic, I mean in a sad way, tragedy, you know. A family so disfunctional that the mom never roots for her son(s)' marriage to work (brackets in because I bailed out, then caught it again, was amazed that it was still on, that neither Deborah nor Robert had run away from that poisonous situation, and that they had just aged - it showed - with nothing changing, but still not sure if Marie was as hell bent as destroying Robert's marriage as she was Ray's). Most depressing thing ever on a scripted supposedly comedy show.  

[CherryAmes]

It's interesting how differently people can see the same show.  For me, Everybody Loves Raymond is the equivalent of comfort food.  That is not to say there haven't been episodes I didn't like, and as the series progressed I did find Marie more and more unbearable!, but all in all ELR is the show I turn on when I am feeling down and need a pick me up.  Someone else somewhere (Bytor perhaps?) likened ELR to a warm blanket on a cold night and that's a pretty good description of it for me.

[Homily]

Yeah,  I discovered ELR at a pretty difficult time in my life and it definitely became "comfort food" for me.  Still is for that matter even though my life has taken a turn for the better :).

[NutMeg]

4 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

It's interesting how differently people can see the same show.  For me, Everybody Loves Raymond is the equivalent of comfort food.  That is not to say there haven't been episodes I didn't like, and as the series progressed I did find Marie more and more unbearable!, but all in all ELR is the show I turn on when I am feeling down and need a pick me up.  Someone else somewhere (Bytor perhaps?) likened ELR to a warm blanket on a cold night and that's a pretty good description of it for me.

Very interesting indeed that what is comfort for some (you!) is hell on earth for others (me!). It was very interesting for me to read your post because obviously the show hit a cord with you and many others that just passed me by :)

[ByTor]

@NutMeg, maybe you've only seen the bad episodes that none of us like :)  But really, we all have different taste. I know I get looked at like I have 3 heads when I say I don't like Friends!

[CherryAmes]

For me it's Modern Family - I just can't get into it but most of my family and friends love it.  

[Maharincess]

Big Bang Theory for me.  I HATE that show so much.  I can't stand the lead actor and I just hate every thing about the show. 

Raymond was hard for me to watch because of Marie,  she was so horrible and I kept waiting for her to get her come uppance but she never did.   I can not think of one good trait that character had.  If she was my mother in law, after I went off and told her what an absolute bitch she was,  I'd take her beloved son and her grandkids and move as away as humanly possible.  Never to be heard from again. 

Edited July 1, 2016 by Maharincess

[BogoGog24]

ELR is sort of like "comfort food" for me as well. There is something comforting and familiar about it, maybe because everyone has a bit of a family like the Barones, like obviously not to the extreme extent like on ELR, but everyone's family has a bit of that dysfunctional dynamic. I never viewed it as tragic, more like a lot of it was so over the top ridiculous (Marie would rather throw away a chicken leg than give it to Robert, Marie crashing the car into the house, Marie writing a letter to the FBI about Robert, etc.) that it was funny. I always thought the punchlines were clever and they had a great cast of actors as well, particularly Patricia Heaton, Brad Garrett, and Doris Roberts (RIP). It's kind of one of my "go to" shows right now and I have been working my way through the DVD box set. I'm currently on season 5. 

[qtpye]

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Raymond was hard for me to watch because of Marie,  she was so horrible and I kept waiting for her to get her come uppance but she never did.   I can not think of one good trait that character had.  If she was my mother in law, after I went off and told her what an absolute bitch she was,  I'd take her beloved son and her grandkids and move as away as humanly possible.  Never to be heard from again. 

By the end of the show, I hated Marie so much.  The character was more nuanced in the beginning and Doris Roberts was a very good actress..the writers then changed the way they wrote the character.  I hated the way Marie was always insulting other women, particularly if they dared not to be married or did not raise their families to her standards.  I wanted someone to snarl back why the heck a lonely pathetic woman whose husband hates her and has to bribe her sons with food to spend time with her, thought she should be giving out advice about how people should live.

The closest we got was when Amy's mother called her out on being a narcissist after almost ruining Amy and Robert's wedding.

[CherryAmes]

2 minutes ago, qtpye said:

The character was more nuanced in the beginning and Doris Roberts was a very good actress..the writers then changed the way they wrote the character. 

In Cruising With Marie we are shown a woman who could be the life of the party, was popular with the other passengers on the ship and who blossomed without Frank being there to berate and insult her.  Then fast forward to the last season and we've got a woman who is loathed by everyone in her retirement community and is starring is what has become a one woman show.  I don't know if we're meant to assume that in those intervening years Marie became horrible where she wasn't before or if the writers just thought writing Toxic Marie was funnier.  But I liked early seasons Marie when she could be annoying but also could be loving.  Not like by the end when she was just awful!

[readster]

Much like other TV characters who had annoying or toxic traits, Marie fell into the same troupe where the writers decided to just keep writing those capital toxic traits because they 1) thought it was funny or 2) had ran out of ideas. Very prompt in my TV shows over the years even going as far Archie Bunker to current in Big Bang Theory. All of a sudden, these traits have to be front and center because other wise the writers would have to you know, actually focus on writing more enriching character evolution when it gets into: "The best characters change." Of course then it turns into: "Now you will hate these characters to death."

[qtpye]

Quote

In Cruising With Marie we are shown a woman who could be the life of the party, was popular with the other passengers on the ship and who blossomed without Frank being there to berate and insult her.  Then fast forward to the last season and we've got a woman who is loathed by everyone in her retirement community and is starring is what has become a one woman show.  I don't know if we're meant to assume that in those intervening years Marie became horrible where she wasn't before or if the writers just thought writing Toxic Marie was funnier.  But I liked early seasons Marie when she could be annoying but also could be loving.  Not like by the end when she was just awful!

Every other character were given sides to make them more human.  Marie, just became more and more horrible.  Remember, when she harassed Amy to send out thank you cards for the wedding, just so she could feel smug about the gift she told her friend to give Amy?

It's like they never could show Marie being kind or thoughtful without there always being an ulterior motive.  She turned into a manipulative lunatic by the end of the show.  My mother (who has a son) always hates the ending where they have Doris Roberts literally jump into Ray and Debra's bed.

It's almost as if the writer's did not know how to write for a woman of a certain age.

I missed the Marie who would sometimes do things other then obsessing about Raymond, like take an art class and make a sculpture.

Edited July 5, 2016 by qtpye

[CherryAmes]

Yeah a lot of people over at TWOP hated Debra and talked about how awful she was and while I can't disagree that by the last couple of seasons she'd gotten harder and meaner there was also plenty of reason for her to change.  It would have been strange if she hadn't.  But I never could see what was happening that would explain why Marie changed so much.  I mean with the exception of Amy none of the characters were as nice by the end of the series as they were when it started but they were still IMO likeable.  Except for Marie.

[BogoGog24]

Last night I watched the episode Ally's Birth and while I understand "TV logic" and the fact they didn't want to tip Marie off when the baby was coming, I didn't understand why they made Robert take them to the hospital instead of just calling an ambulance. Perhaps Debra didn't know/expect she was going to (or feel like she was going to) give birth in the car on the way there but like really, how is it at all logical to make someone drive them to the hospital if they thought the baby was on its way right then? Why not call an ambulance if you're so anxious to be able to run lights? 

[ByTor]

On 7/5/2016 at 11:59 AM, CherryAmes said:

In Cruising With Marie we are shown a woman who could be the life of the party, was popular with the other passengers on the ship and who blossomed without Frank being there to berate and insult her. 

I was JUST going to respond to the original post with pretty much this.  Great minds think alike! :)

On 7/5/2016 at 0:07 PM, readster said:

Much like other TV characters who had annoying or toxic traits, Marie fell into the same troupe where the writers decided to just keep writing those capital toxic traits because they 1) thought it was funny or 2) had ran out of ideas.

Which, IMO, is why shows really should go out while they're still good.

[CherryAmes]

My husband and I just saw the Wedding Tape episode and he made a comment I hadn't thought about before.  Ray is supposed to be a writer, and a good enough writer that he's won awards for doing it yet he couldn't come up with a quick little speech off the cuff when he was supposed to recite his vows?  I said I figured the point was that Ray is so clueless about being able to say anything nice about Debra that he froze.  And of course he redeems himself by remembering her flowers.  But still!  my husband has a good point.  They made Ray a writer. a prize winning writer. but they seemed to forget that a lot of the time!

[BogoGog24]

He was a sports writer though. Maybe he could only really write if it was about sports, since that's what he was really interested in. Plus with writing you have time to read it over, edit, sort out your thoughts. I'm not sure those who are good at writing are necessarily good at improvising something on the spot. I know I personally am far better at expressing myself in writing than speaking off the cuff.

[HyeChaps]

He gave a fine speech at Robert's wedding. 

[BogoGog24]

I haven't seen that episode in awhile. Was it improvised or did he write it out beforehand?

Speaking of writing speeches, it does remind me of the episode where Ray forgot to thank Debra in a speech. I think it's meant to show Ray's negligence when it comes to Debra more than him not being able to write or improvise a speech. 

[CherryAmes]

The speech at Robert's wedding was definitely improvised.  Ray had spent all his time prior to that moment trying to think of something so say.  Then material just presented itself :).  Anyway I can agree that just because someone is a writer that doesn't have to mean they are good at public speaking or giving speeches but it's just that this wasn't a speech.  I guess at least he didn't talk about how their marriage is like oatmeal that can sit in a pot on low heat all day!

Edited July 18, 2016 by CherryAmes

[Homily]

2 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

I guess at least he didn't talk about how their marriage is like oatmeal that can sit in a pot on low heat all day!

That leads to one of my all time favourite (and much used in real life) quotes from ELR: "hands off girls, he's mine."

Edited July 18, 2016 by Homily

[mmecorday]

The episode where Ray and Debra are responsible for supplying a snack during a little league game has always bugged me because I totally concur that pretzels and warm Hawaiian punch were not acceptable. They couldn't even spring for a dollar store foam cooler to keep the beverage cold? Not all kids like pretzels, either.

[readster]

Yeah, the episode still bothers me to this day. The way it was handled, the lack of variety and then you add in the end when Ray went over the list. I mean that was a pretty bad list, and Helicopter Parent thought kids would eat those right up? It was the mid 90s, not like today where you have teens and pre-teens eating various foods, more organic and so forth. It just came across as all of them were out of touch with reality.

  Flash forwarding a few years, I caught the episode where Michael didn't want to go to school because he called the teacher: "mommy". While it showed both Ray and Debra being normal parents, it just confused me that there wasn't really a call to school and a talk with the teacher about Michael missing so many days. It wasn't like they couldn't have said: "He just wants to avoid going to school." "Did something happen in class or with another student?" Instead it was just: "He doesn't want to go, and I can't figure out why." I liked how they resolved with with Michael admitting what happened and even the punch line of both Ray and Ally saying: "Why, was she yelling?" However, it came out that this entire plot could have been resolved with either a call to the school or the school calling Ray and Debra. When a kid missings more than two days of school or if a parent calls in at least three times and says their kid just doesn't want to come to school. There are questions, not a: "Oh, sure no problem, have a nice day." *Click*

[qtpye]

5 hours ago, readster said:

Yeah, the episode still bothers me to this day. The way it was handled, the lack of variety and then you add in the end when Ray went over the list. I mean that was a pretty bad list, and Helicopter Parent thought kids would eat those right up? It was the mid 90s, not like today where you have teens and pre-teens eating various foods, more organic and so forth. It just came across as all of them were out of touch with reality.

The only thing I like about the episode is seeing the real Homer Simpson and knowing Homer would never go for any healthy snacks.  He would probably bring them a hamburger wrapped in bacon and deep fried in butter with donuts on the side.

Edited July 21, 2016 by qtpye

[CherryAmes]

I always wondered how Coach Bryan expected the parents to serve those plantains to the kids.

[qtpye]

22 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

always wondered how Coach Bryan expected the parents to serve those plantains to the kids.

Yeah, those plantains looked raw.

I had a mom who would not follow the rules...sometimes you just gotta suck it up for the kid's sake...like the way Debra stopped fighting with the mom that was bullying Ray, because their girls were best friends.

[tribeca]

The one where Ray had am important interview the owner of the Yankees.   I hate that one.  It was important for his job.   I cant remember now why Debra could not take one of the sons. 

[Homily]

It was because Michael wouldn't go to school and of course they needed to set things up so that Ray would actually step up and be a father for a change and figure out what was bothering his son.  It was pretty dumb though, they had it that Debra was driving kids to a field trip but she makes some comment like "I have to leave now I have ten kids waiting for me" - how big was their car???  And why couldn't Marie have taken care of Michael if they aren't going to force him to go to school and neither of the parents could be home?  I wish they'd tried a little harder with the back stories sometimes but I guess that was never important enough to the writers.