S02.E10: Rise Of The Villains: The Son Of Gotham

[paigow]

Jim hit new lows of stupidity by not getting "son of Gotham". 

He was confused because the SUN never seems to shine in Gotham...

[HoodlumSheep]

I liked this episode better than last weeks. I'll give it a 6 on the Bullock meter.

Waiting for Lee to find out about Kris Kringle. She's come too close too many times to not find out about Ed.

The ending made me giggle. It was so corny with the Penguin busting in and slapping an already 99% unconscious Jim senseless, wanting to know where Theo was.

Alfred vs Tigress was cool.

Yay for Bruce wising up.

Edited November 29, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[queenanne]

Jim hit new lows of stupidity by not getting "son of Gotham". I don't think he needs to be quite that idiotic for plot purposes.

 

Agreed, I got it in three seconds and I'm only moderately smart about plot.  That ranks up there with the pilot episode of the Following, where the writers thought they needed to have Kevin Bacon exposition out the writer of "The Raven".

[Timetoread]

You mean where he slapped/punched Selina for killing his former friend in cold blood, depriving him of an opportunity to say goodbye or find out more information than a couple of teens. Or when he tried to disarm the female assassin with a whip and a gun...

 

This is what I find interesting, a writer make a bad guy a woman because of equal opportunity of violence delivery and then people complain about those women being hit by men. If they only fight women the writer gets accused of pandering to a male audience with all the 'cat fights'. The impression I got of Tabitha is that she's a stone cold killer who crushed a mans windpipe with her boot. Alfred didn't even have a weapon till the end of the fight. Should Alfred simply have been choked to death by her whip just so there's no man on woman assaults ? 

 

I consider Alfred to be a good soldier. If someone's coming after him, he's going to take them out regardless of age, gender or optics.

I guess you missed the part where I said I was fine with the Tabitha takedown. But to your point, I don't like or condone fictional scenarios that set up the concept that it is acceptable for men to strike women. I don't care what Selina did, it's not okay for that grown ass man to put his hands on a young girl. Period. Selina wasnt a soldier coming after him, or even Tabitha who fights and kills for sport and was actively trying to kill him. With Selina he was putting the little woman in her place because she pissed him off. Fuck. That. Shit.

I hate this new trend of "tough" women who fight toe to toe with men in tv and movies. It perpetuates the old trend of gutless assholes proclaiming "If she is going to act like a man, I'm going to fight her like a man." and other bullshit of it's ilk as an excuse to batter. The strength differential is too great to make it even remotely justifiable. In my opinion there are two types of men, those who hit women and those who don't. I liked Alfred but I no longer consider him a good man. He loves Bruce so he works for story purposes as an attack dog but I don't ever want to see him near another female on this show.

[wayne67]

I guess you missed the part where I said I was fine with the Tabitha takedown. But to your point, I don't like or condone fictional scenarios that set up the concept that it is acceptable for men to strike women. I don't care what Selina did, it's not okay for that grown ass man to put his hands on a young girl. Period. Selina wasnt a soldier coming after him, or even Tabitha who fights and kills for sport and was actively trying to kill him. With Selina he was putting the little woman in her place because she pissed him off. Fuck. That. Shit.

I hate this new trend of "tough" women who fight toe to toe with men in tv and movies. It perpetuates the old trend of gutless assholes proclaiming "If she is going to act like a man, I'm going to fight her like a man." and other bullshit of it's ilk as an excuse to batter. The strength differential is too great to make it even remotely justifiable. In my opinion there are two types of men, those who hit women and those who don't. I liked Alfred but I no longer consider him a good man. He loves Bruce so he works for story purposes as an attack dog but I don't ever want to see him near another female on this show.

 

I don't get what your point is exactly. I can't tell if you're saying that you don't want females in situations where they have to engage males in combat because they're physically inferior to men? Which can be easily over come with a ranged weapon and distance or several martial arts styles. 

 

Selina made Bruce an accessory after the fact to murder... From what you're saying it sounds like you think it's irrelevant what the context is, men can't hit women because women can't be held accountable for their actions. To me there's a big difference between a woman wearing pants and deliberately engaging in murder. Which Selina and Tabitha have both done by aiding street gangs/evil conspiracies. 

Edited November 30, 2015 by wayne67

[Timetoread]

I don't get what your point is exactly. I can't tell if you're saying that you don't want females in situations where they have to engage males in combat because they're physically inferior to men? Which can be easily over come with a ranged weapon and distance or several martial arts styles.

 

My point is that I, as in me personally, think that it is wrong and potentially dangerous to portray the fiction that females can and SHOULD engage males in one-on-one physical fights - particularly fights that they themselves instigate with a violent act.  And let's not obfuscate this by implying that I am taking a stance on females in the military.  That is not at ALL what we are discussing.   Yes a woman can learn to fight, shoot, and engage from a distance and perhaps she will have a chance at survival.  I believe in, and am trained in, self-defense - the operative word being DEFENSE, not OFFENSE.  The point of this engagement is to create a possibility of buying enough time to distance oneself from harm.  Not to morph into Buffy the Vampire Slayer and throw grown men across the room because it is both fun and easy to do so. 

 

Why potentially dangerous?  Because we live in a society that more and more confuses fiction with reality.  I am all for "girl power" and my dvd collection has both Buffy and Xena and other shows featuring women with physical strength or prowess.  But ACTUAL women - with the exception of the few that are 4th degree black belts or ninja's, in shape, armed to the teeth and dealing with men who aren't equally equipped - should not have a reasonable confidence of emerging unscathed (or even alive) from a physical altercation with an adult male.  TV should not give that false expectation.  And the same generation of females confusing themselves with Buffy is matched by a generation of males who feel that it is permissable for a man to fight a woman in the same fashion as he does a male.  That "hitting" is an acceptable means of controlling.  That controlling a female is permissable at all.  That a male is permitted to "discipline" a female by any means necessary should he be unhappy with her.  This is wrong in my book and it is why domestic abuse is INCREASING, not decreasing.  Boys should be taught not to hit girls (unless your actual life depends on it) and girls should be taught not to hit boys.  Hitting in general is juvenile - and, I might add, actually illegal when perpetrated by adults - it's called assault.

 

Selina made Bruce an accessory after the fact to murder... From what you're saying it sounds like you think it's irrelevant what the context is, men can't hit women because women can't be held accountable for their actions.

 

What I'm saying doesn't sound like that at all.  But I'll try one more time.  Selina murdered a murderer who was threatening her and Bruce.  Then she convinced Bruce to lie about it.  Definitely wrong - and I'm no fan of Selina - but not Alfred's place to hold her accountable and dole out punishment as he sees fit.  If he was concerned, he could turn her in to the cops.  He could threaten her to stay away from Bruce or else.  He could buy her off.  He could simply tell her that as Bruce's guardian, he will not tolerate this behavior or his keeping company with people who exhibit this behavior.  Not his job to be the punisher - nor to punish corporally.  Did you notice that he didn't slap Bruce who WAS the accessory and has been very disobedient and disrespectful?  Why no passion on that behalf?  Honestly I wish they hadn't included that scene because I now view Alfred as a sick and dangerous man who has no real boundaries.  Selina would be smart to steer clear of Bruce - Bruce's friendship has been the thing to put her most in harm's way.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Timetoread

[Kathemy]

Boys should be taught not to hit girls (unless your actual life depends on it) and girls should be taught not to hit boys.

The unfortunate truth is that boys have been taught not to hit girls since they were little kids, and girls have never been taught not to hit boys. In fact television increasingly glorifies girls hitting men, portraying it as something funny and well-deserved that the girls will always get away with, and that is exactly why domestic abuse is increasing.

[Ailianna]

How about we teach everyone not to hit everyone else? No gender needed.  Just don't hit people.  It's not a problem-solving tool.

[jhlipton]

Just like the guy who wrote The Count Of Monte Christo, yep. Nice little oomp by the writers!

 

 One of the Dumas' (there was a father and son) also wrote The Three Musketeers (and its sequels) and The Man in the Iron Mask. Lots of Gotham-esque fun!

 

How about we teach everyone not to hit everyone else? No gender needed.  Just don't hit people.  It's not a problem-solving tool.

 

Sounds good to me.

[Timetoread]

How about we teach everyone not to hit everyone else? No gender needed.  Just don't hit people.  It's not a problem-solving tool.

 

That's a good idea, but gender does need to be specified.  A woman should not hit a man because, for starters, it's obnoxious and could incite return violence for him.  However, most women, unless they use a weapon or hit very specific places on the body, won't cause permanent - or even temporary damage - to the person of an adult male.  A man can kill a woman with one punch to her head or adbomen.  The fist of a grown man is a deadly weapon and part of the rearing of boys should include controlling their strength.  They should be taught that brandishing a weapon is not a method of conflict management.  Are there violent women who harm males?  Absolutely! And these women should be prosecuted and incarcerated if need be.  But I hate false equivalencies - a man hitting a woman IS NOT THE SAME THING as a woman hitting a man.  Both are wrong, but one is more dangerous.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Gotham Goes Underground
The secret was right below us the whole time. Unless you're in the basement; then it was on the same level as you.

[wayne67]

What I'm saying doesn't sound like that at all.  But I'll try one more time.  Selina murdered a murderer who was threatening her and Bruce.  Then she convinced Bruce to lie about it.  Definitely wrong - and I'm no fan of Selina - but not Alfred's place to hold her accountable and dole out punishment as he sees fit.  If he was concerned, he could turn her in to the cops.  He could threaten her to stay away from Bruce or else.  He could buy her off.  He could simply tell her that as Bruce's guardian, he will not tolerate this behavior or his keeping company with people who exhibit this behavior.  Not his job to be the punisher - nor to punish corporally.  Did you notice that he didn't slap Bruce who WAS the accessory and has been very disobedient and disrespectful?  Why no passion on that behalf?  Honestly I wish they hadn't included that scene because I now view Alfred as a sick and dangerous man who has no real boundaries.  Selina would be smart to steer clear of Bruce - Bruce's friendship has been the thing to put her most in harm's way.

 

Wait when was it shown that the guy was a murderer ? He stabbed Alfred and he survived. So attempted murderer maybe. Alfred couldn't call the cops on Selina's activities without endangering Bruce as Accessory to the fact to murder and getting Alfred in trouble for that whole false police report where he told Gordon that he didn't see who stabbed him. 

 

We didn't really see what Alfred's reaction to the news of Bruce's activities. It cut away before we could get much in the way of response from Alfred. As for whether it's his place to punish Selina. It's not his place. Then again neither is it Batman's place to punch people into submission. This whole show glorifies violence and death. There is so much death, mostly of mooks who are typically male and nameless. 

[John Potts]

Just how dumb are the Gotham Cops/DAs? All they had on Galavan was the testimony of the (ex-)Mayor and nothing else, yet they still went to trial? And why is he the ex Mayor anyway? Galavan attained the post because the previous Mayor had (supposedly) absconded - but by either his initial or revised testimony he as kidnapped - doesn't he retake his post iin that case? I guess he could have claimed he was too traumatised by his ordeal to carry on but otherwise shouldn't he replace Galavan?

 

Loved the fact that the Gotham cops offered to let Gordon "talk" to Galavan with the cameras off and then Harvey asked him the same thing! Though I was glad that Gordon pointed out the obvious that a fanatic who is into self mutilation and prepared to suicide to avoid capture is probably not going to talk just because you beat him up - it shows a level of both pragmatism and awareness that suggest he might one day make a vaguely competent. Of course, he'll need to keep his temper in check.

 

Glad that Galvan at least seems to behaving FUN as a villain. It was great to see him going "I've got five minutes!" even if  thought Gordon ought to have landed one or two punches (given Galavan's goons present, it wasn't as if he was really taking that much of  risk).

 

Spartan Girl  I loved Bruce and Selina outsmarting Silver. Also Selina's response to Bruce's declaration of love? "I'm gonna steal one of your cars."

 

Absolutely! I'm a big fan of when our heroes win by outsmarting their enemies and gives you an inkling of how Bruce might become Batman in time. And Selina - it's not really stealing if you TELL him you're going to take them!

 

amass -  "Don't worry, he'll be fine. And if he isn't, he can always regenerate."

Lantern7 - Anybody else wonder if Alfred used Venusian Aikido against Tabitha?

 

 

That takes a lot more gurning and saying "Hai!" (though I love a good Who reference).

[Chas411]

How many cops have died this season... the guy who was set on fire, the rookie with the book in his neck, the massacre in the opening of the season.... but it's the rookie cop we barely knew who tips him over the edge?

[Kathemy]

On 8/22/2016 at 11:01 PM, Chas411 said:

How many cops have died this season... the guy who was set on fire, the rookie with the book in his neck, the massacre in the opening of the season.... but it's the rookie cop we barely knew who tips him over the edge?

"The straw that broke the camel's back." It's a dialectical concept.