Spoiler Discussion Thread

[looptab]

Why wouldn't she be at Quentin's funeral then? I mean, unless they want to have Laurel/Dinah make the choice of keeping the funeral small and making them look like absolute assholes for not having her come. I don't think Donna would miss Quentin's own funeral, unless they've broken up in the episodes preceding it. And if Quentin is the one who has chosen to keep the funeral small between family and close friends for Laurel's funeral, it would be understandable, as Donna and Laurel don't know each other that well for Donna to come to her funeral. She would probably offer her support for the service afterward, instead. 

Oh, no, I wasn't trying to make it an argument for the funeral being Quentin's. I just honestly don't get the choice of not having Donna there. Before this last wave of photos, I would have thought that, if Donna were to appear in the funeral episode, she'd be at the funeral no matter who died, because she has some kind of connection with pretty much every character, except maybe Lyla. Or Diggle, perhaps? But who knows, maybe they'll explain it away as "Donna doesn't attend funerals" for whatever reason, or one of the points you raised.

Edited March 1, 2016 by looptab

[dtissagirl]

Maybe it wasn't a creative decision? Charlotte Ross could've had other commitments in LA last week.

[looptab]

Maybe it will be a funeral with only the people who knew about the secrets. Donna doesnt.

Could be, but, remind me, did Alex Kingston shot the funeral scene? Because she doesn't know either. And I'm inclined to think that she dies as Laurel Lance. Otherwise that midnight funeral they did for Sara makes even less sense.

 

@dtissagirl, you're probably right. :)

Edited March 1, 2016 by looptab

[Morrigan2575]

Maybe it's not a funeral, maybe you're just getting the funeral aftermath?  Like after everyone leaves you have the Team plus Dinah saying their last goodbyes?  Then there's a comment about how they have to get back to the repast and that Donna went ahead to set everything up?

 

Then you have the scene where everyone else walks off and Oliver is left alone at the grave for the flash forward and maybe they'll also pick up/expand on the Olicity limo scene afterwards

[Chaser]

I noticed that AK only had one look so I wondered if at Sara's funeral they will focus on Lance/Laurel and during the present they will focus on Lance/Dinah. It would be difficult to fit Donna into that. I could see Donna staying back to allow the parents to grieve together.

[bijoux]

Oh, no, I wasn't trying to make it an argument for the funeral being Quentin's. I just honestly don't get the choice of not having Donna there. Before this last wave of photos, I would have thought that, if Donna were to appear in the funeral episode, she'd be at the funeral no matter who died, because she has some kind of connection with pretty much every character, except maybe Lyla. Or Diggle, perhaps? But who knows, maybe they'll explain it away as "Donna doesn't attend funerals" for whatever reason, or one of the points you raised.

 

I refuse to believe Donna doesn't drop by the Diggles' place when she's at SC just to squeeze little munchkin's cheeks.

 

Could be, but, remind me, did Alex Kingston shot the funeral scene? Because she doesn't know either. And I'm inclined to think that she dies as Laurel Lance. Otherwise that midnight funeral they did for Sara makes even less sense.

Yes, there are photos of Alex Kingston in black on location while the funeral was being shot.

[apinknightmare]

Then you have the scene where everyone else walks off and Oliver is left alone at the grave for the flash forward and maybe they'll also pick up/expand on the Olicity limo scene afterwards

If one of them doesn't reach across the divide and take the other's hand, then WHAT IS IT ALL FOR?!?

[Lady Calypso]

Oh, no, I wasn't trying to make it an argument for the funeral being Quentin's. I just honestly don't get the choice of not having Donna there. Before this last wave of photos, I would have thought that, if Donna were to appear in the funeral episode, she'd be at the funeral no matter who died, because she has some kind of connection with pretty much every character, except maybe Lyla. Or Diggle, perhaps? But who knows, maybe they'll explain it away as "Donna doesn't attend funerals" for whatever reason, or one of the points you raised.

 

No, no I got you! I do get the choice. I mean, like I said, if Quentin chose to push Donna away because of his grief, he might have a really small funeral of just the Lance family and Laurel's friends. It could be a subplot with Lance/Donna, with Donna getting worried about him distancing himself and her coming to him for the service after the funeral. But if Quentin's the one who is dead, why wouldn't Donna come? Would she think she's intruding and not show up? That wouldn't make her look that good. But yeah, I do think you're right in that Donna would probably show up for Laurel's funeral to support Quentin, just as she would show up for Quentin's funeral because she's been dating him. 

 

Well then...I just argued for Laurel's death, even when there shouldn't even be an argument. I'm also running on no sleep in the last 22 hours. But yeah, I'm on the train, you guys. I am on the train and I am fully aware this could come back to bite me. 

[dtissagirl]

If one of them doesn't reach across the divide and take the other's hand, then WHAT IS IT ALL FOR?!?

 

I'm gonna need either of them to say "Laurel would have wanted us to be happy" at some point too. For reasons.

[Morrigan2575]

Could the new blonde villain be China White?  We're supposed to get a bunch of past villains coming back, so far that's only Cupid (Bugged Eyed Bandit if you included Flash 1.18)

[bijoux]

I think someone also caught Murmur in the promo.

[kismet]

I think Donna not being at the present day funerals could easily be explained away if CR was unable to film or perhaps they wanted to make it about the Lances. I could also see that they could have Donna at the funeral but just not show her. I would imagine that QL & DL are going to lean on each other during the burial of their daughter. And the writers did not know how to write Donna into those scenes. And if they did have Donna there, then they would have to cast DL's new boyfriend, so it would be more casting and more script finessing. IRL, Donna would have gone to either Lance Funeral, but its a TV show so things happen.

 

I'm not taking CR not being present during the funerals as a sign of anything, other than perhaps CR was not available. She could even show up at the end and claim her flight was delayed. Perhaps BA was supposed to pick her up and bring her to SC.

[looptab]

I'm gonna need either of them to say "Laurel would have wanted us to be happy" at some point too. For reasons.

LOL Yes please.

[Sakura12]

I can see Dinah requesting that Quentin doesn't bring his girlfriend to their daughter's funeral. Donna doesn't really know Laurel. Out of respect she wouldn't go an she can be waiting for him back at his house. 

 

I can't see Dinah telling Donna she can't go to her boyfriend's funeral. If they have broken up by that time, Donna would still go to Quentin's funeral, and would have even less reason to go to Laurel's. 

[foreverevolving]

I can see Dinah requesting that Quentin doesn't bring his girlfriend to their daughter's funeral. Donna doesn't really know Laurel. Out of respect she wouldn't go an she can be waiting for him back at his house. 

 

I can't see Dinah telling Donna she can't go to her boyfriend's funeral. If they have broken up by that time, Donna would still go to Quentin's funeral, and would have even less reason to go to Laurel's. 

I'd be fine with that (Dinah asking) as long as whoever she's seeing isn't there either!

[nksarmi]

It's probably Laurel.  I'm shocked, but it makes sense. 

 

We've been wondering for years if the writers secretly hated Laurel. But in the end, I think it comes down to the fact that their original premise failed and they never bothered to "fix" Laurel.  Even now, everything they could do to "fix" her probably won't happen because this show is Arrow and the focus is Oliver. Even when a character gets their own story arc - it still comes back to revolving around Oliver.  And that's ok - that's what the show was sold as and if they changed it - probably more people would dislike it than enjoy it.

 

So Laurel wasn't written as the future Black Canary - a badass member of the Justice League and founding member of Birds of Prey who is an autonomous superhero outside of Green Arrow's story.  She was written from the start as Oliver's past love interest and intended future love interest with a bit of comic destiny on the side. Once she failed as Oliver's love interest (and oh holy crap - who thought having him cheat on her WITH HER SISTER!?!!??! was a good basis for something they could come back from?) and they killed off Tommy - she had no place on the show and they never bothered to fix that.

 

I mean, if they had left Tommy alive at the end of season one under the impression that Oliver killed his father, had Laurel and Tommy grow closer while Tommy grew to hate Oliver, and then had Tommy go the Dark Archer path while Laurel was inspired by Sara to train and step into her shoes when she left at the end of season two (very much alive - Sara did NOT need to die for Laurel to become BC), we could have had Oliver vs. Tommy with Laurel in the middle by season three - all while Oliver was still surrounded by Diggle and "Olicity" was developing.  Laurel would have still "fit" in that storyline.

 

But given the choices they made for three years - Laurel does NOT fit on a show that is all. about. Oliver.  I think they either felt they owed it to KC to do the Black Canary storyline or they had some kind of contract obligation they felt they needed to fulfill. So between them saying they felt like seasons one through three were a trilogy and them deciding that they wanted to kill a mask and up the anti for the viewer - it makes sense to do away with the last of the original show setup this season and use Laurel/BC for emotional impact for the characters. 

 

I think it makes a lot of sense, but I'm still surprised they are doing it.

[dtissagirl]

I mean, if they had left Tommy alive at the end of season one under the impression that Oliver killed his father, had Laurel and Tommy grow closer while Tommy grew to hate Oliver, and then had Tommy go the Dark Archer path while Laurel was inspired by Sara to train and step into her shoes when she left at the end of season two (very much alive - Sara did NOT need to die for Laurel to become BC), we could have had Oliver vs. Tommy with Laurel in the middle by season three - all while Oliver was still surrounded by Diggle and "Olicity" was developing.  Laurel would have still "fit" in that storyline.

 

Wow, I would have quit that show so fucking fast in S2 I would be Flash instead of Barry.

Edited March 1, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Chaser]

I remember them saying the first three seasons was like a triology. Some fans were saying they played out Olicity and this is the set up for comic book GA and BC. That's funny.

SAs quote about remembering what they people loved in the first place. I'm wondering if he meant doing their own thing. S3 went very comic book, but bad comic book. It didn't translate well. IMO Arrow works best when it makes its own thing. Killing Laurel would certainly be a statement for that.

Does anyone remember that interview with KC were she says there is room for Oliver and Laurel? I know that is what she said before the Oliver is the Love of her life/Soulmate thing. Maybe it wasn't the engagement that changed her tune.

[looptab]

 

I mean, if they had left Tommy alive at the end of season one under the impression that Oliver killed his father, had Laurel and Tommy grow closer while Tommy grew to hate Oliver, and then had Tommy go the Dark Archer path while Laurel was inspired by Sara to train and step into her shoes when she left at the end of season two (very much alive - Sara did NOT need to die for Laurel to become BC), we could have had Oliver vs. Tommy with Laurel in the middle by season three 

Yeah, that's what the show would have been. What they planned for originally.

 

I don't know what to say about the writers. Some days I think they did all they could for Laurel, and I wouldn't say they never tried to fix her. Other days I think they misfired at each and every turn.

Edited March 1, 2016 by looptab

[spartan]

Why would KC want to leave?

- She got the role she always wanted to get, an action role
- She has a nice life in Vancouver, as she's training with her boyfriend Thomas
- She thoroughly enjoys working with cast and crew on Arrow and other shows, Danielle Panabaker is her flatmate, the hairdresser and make-up guys are friends, she besties with Caity Lotz and Emily

Why would she want to give this up, assuming she has to go back to LA for work?

No KC wouldn't want to leave Arrow, she loves it.

[nksarmi]

Wow, I would have quit that show so fucking fast in S2 I would be Flash instead of Barry.

 

Really? I would have loved it if Tommy lived and Laurel's story revolved around him rather than her being a drunk/addict and hating on Sara.  I would have liked it even better if she had embraced Sara rather than being pissed about Sara and Oliver being together again.  In my head, Tommy wouldn't have gone dark until season three (perhaps playing Thea's role with Malcolm if they had to bring him back) and Laurel would have picked up the BC mantel after Slade told her about Oliver and Sara left town - but not to replace a dead sister - just inspired by what the two of them had done.  Of course, I would have also given her a martial artist background so we could skip over the "she has no experience" crap (just give me a line about her getting a black belt after Oliver and Sara died - I'll take it).

 

Then the emotional drama of season three could have been between Oliver and Tommy and Laurel trying to figure out which one of them to support.  And Oliver still could have had a budding relationship with Felicity admits all of this and his man pain could have come from having to battle his former best friend.  I mean, yes it does sacrifice the character of Tommy (whom I loved) but I would have done that in a heart beat to replace Malcolm/Ra's last season.

 

Anyway - way off topic now.  I was just kind of thinking about the fact that they never gave Laurel anything to be once they decided she wasn't Oliver/Green Arrow's future love interest.  Maybe that's why KC insanely still has it as her head canon that Laurel and Oliver are soulmates.  The show never gave her anything else to work with.  That's kind of sad in my opinion and explains why her character failed.

[ComicFan777]

Yeah, I think the writers did everything they could to fix Laurel...I mean these are the writers that thought BMD was going to be great...yeah, so not accounting for taste...I think they did try their best to fix things. 

[dtissagirl]

If it's really true that they wanted to recast KC or write Laurel out of the show entirely after the pilot, then everything they did with Laurel afterwards finally makes sense to me. This is the missing piece of info I didn't have before. They kept Laurel as far from Oliver and the A plot as possible in S2-S3 while they were taking whatever steps in making her BC; they also made everything related to her easily skippable on Netflix binge-watching, because not watching her scenes doesn't disrupt the main plot in anyway; and this season she had a momentary narrative role in bringing Sara back in 403-405, but since then: bupkis.

 

Her death will be the most significant thing she'll ever do to the narrative.

[Chaser]

I don't think it's China White. I was curious so I checked Kelly Hu Social Media. She was at the Elton John Oscar Party. She could have taken the red eye to Van but there was no indication.

[bijoux]

I can see Dinah requesting that Quentin doesn't bring his girlfriend to their daughter's funeral. Donna doesn't really know Laurel. Out of respect she wouldn't go an she can be waiting for him back at his house. 

 

I can't see Dinah telling Donna she can't go to her boyfriend's funeral. If they have broken up by that time, Donna would still go to Quentin's funeral, and would have even less reason to go to Laurel's.

I would find it extremely lame if Dinah requested that Donna not be there. Whatever for? Quentin has obviously had a closer relationship with Laurel than she did for the past decade, so if the man needs his girlfriend to comfort him, what right does his ex-wife have to demand she not be there?

[looptab]

If it's really true that they wanted to recast KC or write Laurel out of the show entirely after the pilot, then everything they did with Laurel afterwards finally makes sense to me. This is the missing piece of info I didn't have before. They kept Laurel as far from Oliver and the A plot as possible in S2-S3 while they were taking whatever steps in making her BC; they also made everything related to her easily skippable on Netflix binge-watching, because not watching her scenes doesn't disrupt the main plot in anyway; and this season she had a momentary narrative role in bringing Sara back in 403-405, but since then: bupkis.

 

Her death will be the most significant thing she'll ever do to the narrative.

Then please help me make sense of it too, haha. Because I'm here wondering why the hell they didn't kill her in S1.

Edited March 1, 2016 by looptab

[nksarmi]

Yeah, that's what the show would have been. What they planned for originally.

 

I don't know what to say about the writers. Some days I think they did all they could for Laurel, and I wouldn't say they never tried to fix her. Other days I think they misfired at each and every turn.

 

They definitely misfired at each and every turn.

 

-Season one's sex scene between Oliver and Laurel makes them both look disgusting and hurts Tommy.

 

-Season two's "crucible" makes Laurel so nasty that even when she's technically right (regarding Oliver and Sara and rubbing their relationship in her face) that she comes off so badly we sympathize with the people who are kind of in the wrong.

 

-Season two's sisterly issues just make it look like Laurel never cared all that much for her sister to begin with.

 

-Season three's lie to her father makes her look as bad as Oliver does every time he lies rather than a concerned daughter.

 

-Season three's let's watch her become a superhero plot makes her look like an idiot because we never convincingly see her train and people are resentful over Sara's death anyway *Sidenote - Oliver really hasn't been shown becoming an excellent archer and fighter in the flashbacks or all the other things that make him into the Arrow but at least we got something - and something is better than nothing

 

-Season three having Oliver act as if he wants absolutely nothing to do with Laurel highlights why she doesn't fit rather than creates a smooth transition for her becoming part of the team. Oliver welcomed every other member of the team in himself - he feels as if Laurel is being forced upon him and that does not make the audience feel any different.

 

-Season four's handling of Laurel and Sara's resurrection makes her look selfish, foolish, and a little bit nuts.

 

While it is clear that MG in particular has not understood why these decisions were failures - it almost seems like someone who hates Laurel/KC was floating bad ideas as good ones as a kind of passive aggressive way to deal with having to have a character on the show that didn't really work in any possible way.  They didn't even bother to give the poor girl a love interest who turned out to be connected to HIVE.  Sure, that would suck for Laurel - but it would have at least kept as part of the story!

[kismet]

Yeah, that's what the show would have been. What they planned for originally.

 

I don't know what to say about the writers. Some days I think they did all they could for Laurel, and I wouldn't say they never tried to fix her. Other days I think they misfired at each and every turn.

I really think they failed LL/BC from the beginning by not giving her a better backstory. The cheating sister was a misstep, but surmountable. The fact that they never had LL show any inclination to marital arts training was really a misstep. They didn't even have her start boxing until the season they gave her the mask. So they already were starting from a negative score with her belivability as BC, especially when they had someone like CL who excelled at stunts as the original Canary & inspiration for LL.

 

I believe they did try to fix her, but they never understood what the problem was. It's hard to say what it is about KC & her relationship to the other characters, but the only one she seems to click with onscreen post-s1 is QL. So whether its the writing or the acting, there is something that stops LL/BC from blending seamlessly into the group. I also think they waited too long to have OQ & LL find a place of forgiveness. I'm not saying I wanted them buddies, but most of s3 & s2 they were at odds with each other, and that certainly does not help to integrate a character into the main group.

 

I also think s3 seriously failed LL, because the you catch 'em, I cook 'em would have been a good plan to get LL & TA to work together. But they dropped that in order to pursue their comic book LoA/Batman homage. So rather than LL gradually becoming part of TA, perhaps gradually being drawn to vigilantism, when the criminal justice system was failing. One day she just decided to steal her sister's mask, and do some arts & crafts to create her own costume and then hit the streets untrained. She was a forced addition into the lair, that was allowed to be in there only because the show brutally killed off her sister. She was never invited to TA, she was just there. And I think that makes a difference in how the audience accepts a character if they are not a fan of that character.

 

I do wonder if she has been the sacrificial lamb all along, that they would use her death to symbolize the high stakes again in ARROW. Contractually, I think they had to make KC the BC and she had to be it for more than 1 season. So now that they have achieved 2 seasons of her being a mask & 4 seasons on the show, contractually they can kill her. And what better way to establish that they are in control of their own destiny and their own show ideas than by killing a major comic character that has deep connections to the GA mythos? They knew from 401 that they were killing someone. I always think LL/BC was on the shortlist, I just think they were waiting for some legal stuff to come through. They set-up other potentials, but knew who would be in that grave if they had their choice.

 

I do think they tried to fix her character, I just think they had no idea how to do it. And I agree they misfired on every turn. And then by s4, I think they gave up. Her s4 arc was either completely delusional or people in the writers room were working through some issues. I will continue to say it, but the major problem with LL/BC was that they kept on trying to tell us one thing about her, but then consistently showed her being the complete opposite. They wanted us to believe this version of her that they (or some of them) had in their heads, but forgot to write that character into the script. At the end of the day, the audience responds to what is on the screen and not what is in the writers' heads.

[dtissagirl]

Really? I would have loved it if Tommy lived and Laurel's story revolved around him rather than her being a drunk/addict and hating on Sara.

 

Everything you're saying makes sense to me in theory, however, it's not a show I would want to watch [disclaimer: I never really cared for Tommy]. In fact, it would have been my nightmare scenario for Arrow: it would have kept Laurel in the A plot. I'm forever and ever grateful they kept her completely out of the A plot for the past 3 seasons.

 

Then please help me make sense of it too, haha. Because I'm here wondering why the hell they didn't kill her in S1.

 

Because the network didn't let them?

 

And I've been told by two separate people who ~know people~ that even this death this season, it took the CW forever to decide who it would be. That they had a list of possibilities since the EPs pitch for the season, and only made the final choice over Christmas break.

[Chaser]

Christmas break would make sense with the producers visit to Van City.

Did the people in the know hint or tell you it was KC?

[SonofaBiscuit]

Huh.  And here I was thinking that they had decided Laurel would be in the grave before season four premiered.  It's pretty crappy that they set the whole thing up not even knowing if they would be allowed to kill off the character of their choice.  What if the network had signed off on Diggle?!  Not that I think that would have actually happened...but the grave flashforward was kind of a risky move.  Oh well, it payed off for me :)  

[SmallScreenDiva]

Everything you're saying makes sense to me in theory, however, it's not a show I would want to watch [disclaimer: I never really cared for Tommy]. In fact, it would have been my nightmare scenario for Arrow: it would have kept Laurel in the A plot. I'm forever and ever grateful they kept her completely out of the A plot for the past 3 seasons.

 

 

Because the network didn't let them?

 

And I've been told by two separate people who ~know people~ that even this death this season, it took the CW forever to decide who it would be. That they had a list of possibilities since the EPs pitch for the season, and only made the final choice over Christmas break.

 

Quentin's gotta be on that list. I'm curious, who else? All regulars or did they try to swerve with, say, Alex or Curtis? Did CW consider Diggle (which probably would have made me quit the show)?

[lexicon]

And I've been told by two separate people who ~know people~ that even this death this season, it took the CW forever to decide who it would be. That they had a list of possibilities since the EPs pitch for the season, and only made the final choice over Christmas break.

 

Can I be nosy and ask if those people you know - who know people - have given any further confirmation that the death is in fact LL? 

[dtissagirl]

Christmas break would make sense with the producers visit to Van City.

Did the people in the know hint or tell you it was KC?

 

Nope, I was just told there was a kill list. I even asked if it was a list of regulars, but they wouldn't say.

[looptab]

Because the network didn't let them?

And I've been told by two separate people who ~know people~ that even this death this season, it took the CW forever to decide who it would be. That they had a list of possibilities since the EPs pitch for the season, and only made the final choice over Christmas break.

Yeah, right, I got tangled in my own reasoning and somehow convinced myself that the network influence was in place just for the first season, haha. But it's even more disconcerting. I can maybe let pass the insistence for the pilot, but everyone pointed at the character as a failure by the end of S1. Why keep insisting.

So you think the EPs just kept her busy - and away from everything - waiting to finally get rid of her?

Wonder what finally made the network agree.

[AyChihuahua]

It was really a combo of acting and writing. The first thing she said to the hero was that she hoped he'd spend more than five years in hell. That's despicable. He cheated on her with her sister (disclaimer: IMO he did not kill Sara or get Sara killed...that was MM, everyone thought it was a random storm, and Oliver did not force Sara on the boat and there's no indication that LL THOUGHT he forced Sara on the boat). He didn't murder LL's child. 

 

So that's a writing problem. Then, even though she was super ragey, she kept hanging around Oliver. Okay, you hate him, then FUCKING STAY AWAY FROM HIM. I don't want to see a person who hates another person keep hanging around him. Either stop hating him or stop hanging around him. Nothing is forcing you to, among other things, go to his family's Christmas party. Just tell Tommy no, JFC. All that makes her look incredibly passive-aggressive or borderline or something unpleasant. The sister-swapping was also writing. Dumb as hell. Just make it a friend, not a sister.

 

But, Kim Manners, a regular Supernatural director, said she was the most uncoordinated person he'd ever worked with. So, here's a thought...don't cast an incredibly uncoordinated actor as an action character. It doesn't matter how much she works out if she's fundamentally uncoordinated. I am uncoordinated. It is not a character flaw, but it does mean I should not be cast as a badass fighter. Then there was a total lack of chemistry. They were idiots to cast KC and SA without a chem test. IDIOTS. Plus in general she just plays brittle and angry well, but she does not play warm and caring well. It's not in her wheelhouse, which should be fairly apparent from her prior roles (mostly pretty brittle and angry). So that's acting.

 

Oh, and not having LL already be an accomplished martial artist prior to Oliver's return was dumb as hell, too. Not a few self-defense classes. Writing her as having trained in martial arts in a big way after Oliver and Sara disappeared would just be common sense considering the eventual plan. Of course, you'd still come up against the huge lack of coordination roadblock, but that's acting. It would have made her constant kidnappings a little more difficult to work, but just have her surprised or come up against big groups or get drugged or something. 

 

Just a total clusterfuck in every way: casting, writing, and acting. 

Edited March 1, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[kismet]

I can believe that it was the network that was putting the kibosh on LL being allowed to be killed until s4. I can only believe that the network is willing to do it now because KC is starting to age out of their demographic. And more importantly, after 4 seasons, there is quantitative evidence now that perhaps KC's salary does not justify her being on the show anymore.

 

Also, as a Tommy's fan... I can safely say that I am glad he is dead rather than him being forced into an extended love triangle, hating OQ and being forced down a dark path. I will truly believe that Tommy is not dead, but rather he is somewhere living a happy life away from the hell hole that SC has become, perhaps he even has amnesia. And perhaps, in the final seasons he will come back when OQ needs him the most, as a good guy. I was really bummed when he didn't rescue OQ from the mountaintop, but I get why it didn't happen. Tommy lives in my head, but I'm glad they never made him the Dark Archer.

[ComicFan777]

I imagine the network wouldn't have any reasons to justify her sticking around now because she fulfilled her comic book destiny...at least the writers said that she is a full-fledged hero...and supposedly presumed "equal" in fighting skills as Oliver. The numbers just don't support her sticking around even when she is at her best.  She probably doesn't bring in the kind of popularity/press expected of someone who is being paid as the lead actress.

Edited March 1, 2016 by ComicFan777

[nksarmi]

If Laurel being on the show and eventually becoming BC was forced - than I do think that explains everything about what has made me scratch my head for years.  I have wondered if they hated the character/actress for a very long time.

 

If they wanted to change things from the pilot than it makes me more convinced that they wrote her badly on purpose.  And I do think there has been a huge failing in writing for the Laurel character.  KC might not be the best actress ever and she and SA might not have the greatest chemistry ever (certainly NOT SA/EBR level chemistry) but Laurel could have been written a thousand times better by a fanfic writer (and probably has been).

 

If they "tried" to fix things - they are idiots.  I'd find it easier to believe they wrote her poorly on purpose.  It's unprofessional, but it's believable.

[AyChihuahua]

I'm glad Tommy didn't become the Dark Archer bc that is just too much insta-badass. A lazy shallow billionaire boy just suddenly develops an affinity for archery and martial arts and gets incredibly good at it extremely quickly? To this day the only one that makes sense is Oliver. I know Thea was trained by MM, and LL had a few boxing classes, but COME ON.

 

Re Laurel in fic, there's not a single fic, no matter how well-written, in which I like Laurel. Not one. I think she's fundamentally kind of a goody-goody? I'm not sure what it is, but, for example, that otherwise really well-done Regency fic has a lot of Laurel scenes, and they bore me to tears. I guess bc I read O/F fic, and if O and F are together, then there's just no real place for Laurel. Even in fic I can't really buy Oliver and Laurel as friends.

Edited March 1, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[dtissagirl]

Can I be nosy and ask if those people you know - who know people - have given any further confirmation that the death is in fact LL? 

 

Nope, sorry. I asked over the weekend, and nobody got a confirmation.

[Morrigan2575]

Can I be nosy and ask if those people you know - who know people - have given any further confirmation that the death is in fact LL? 

It's Laurel, no question Katie Cassidy was fired.

[kismet]

Question for the legal minded on the site ~

 

If they did fire KC, do they have to pay out her contract if it was longer? Is there a difference between writing her character out and firing the actress? Because I can see them choosing to fire her rather then pay out her contract. They don't have to give her a severance package, which in the budget tight CW may be more reflective of their business practices than KC's professional behavior.

[nksarmi]

Question for the legal minded on the site ~

 

If they did fire KC, do they have to pay out her contract if it was longer? Is there a difference between writing her character out and firing the actress? Because I can see them choosing to fire her rather then pay out her contract. They don't have to give her a severance package, which in the budget tight CW may be more reflective of their business practices than KC's professional behavior.

 

I'm curious as well because the last time I followed any kind of contract issue was when Charmed fired Shannon D.  I thought that went down very badly, but the impression I was left with after that was that a show could fire an actor/actress any time and only had to pay them if they used their image afterwards.  Depending on the contract, they might get some royalties if the show goes into syndication but that's it.

 

I really want to know how KC got such a good deal if the EPs were ready to let her go at the end of season one.

[Nagevs]

I can believe that it was the network that was putting the kibosh on LL being allowed to be killed until s4. I can only believe that the network is willing to do it now because KC is starting to age out of their demographic. And more importantly, after 4 seasons, there is quantitative evidence now that perhaps KC's salary does not justify her being on the show anymore.

 

 

 

This is how I see it too. They agreed to let KC go now because it was financially in their best interests to do so.  I'm now wondering if the CW will cast her in a new show...

Edited March 1, 2016 by nagevs85

[tarotx]

Maybe the final decision was actually dealing with KC in stunts. Even she admits that sometimes they have to do a number of takes and she still does not get the skill right for camera. You know how much time that waste? That time should be spent on getting SA to do something cool that make Oliver stand out. Instead they have to teach KC the move and after take after take she can't get it right so the stunt double does the move on camera. So spending time to highlight a stunt women.

[Artsda]

 

I really want to know how KC got such a good deal if the EPs were ready to let her go at the end of season one.

It's possible her great deal came from CW itself cause they loved her. She was their one star from Melrose Place reboot but that was cancelled. Then they cast her on Gossip Girl which I always thought happened because she was still contracted to CW for a period of time after Melrose so they put her there.

[AyChihuahua]

I'm a contracts attorney, but not entertainment contracts. I have read a bit about entertainment contracts, and basically, it's unlikely that they had to pay her anything beyond probably the end of this season. (Not sure how regulars on tv shows are paid...monthly, biweekly, or in one big chunk at the beginning of filming for the season.) Severance isn't really an issue with service contracts. She's not exactly an employee, she's more like an independent agent.  

 

All things considered, this is not great for her career. She'll likely get at least some BTS gossip about her behavior/abilities, she's spent four years playing a character that often makes worst-of lists, and she's nearing 30. 

[catrox14]

Maybe Donna isn't at the funeral because she was being held captive by someone?

Dinah has a new boyfriend and a life in away from Quentin and Laurel. Why would she care if Quentin's new GF came to the funeral?

[kismet]

Maybe Donna isn't at the funeral because she was being held captive by someone?

Dinah has a new boyfriend and a life in away from Quentin and Laurel. Why would she care if Quentin's new GF came to the funeral?

Perhaps that is the cliffhanger.... where is Donna? And then we get a panicked phone call or threatening message. dun dun dun...