Spoiler Discussion Thread

[kismet]

I don't understand the logic of bringing in BM/W in on the secret, but perhaps it is OQ trying a new way. Maybe he feels it makes the situation better.

I do know that I don't want the BM to turn on TA or be working for DD. They have already made her character too much of a caricature for plot purposes. I want them to find W and then I want BM/W to move away and live a happy life. Perhaps OQ & co can visit them from time to time.

I don't need or want BM escalated to this evil or bad person that works with the big bad. She was awful for lying to OQ & making him lie to everyone, but she was protecting her son. Working with DD would destroy what little amt of respect I do have for the character. Plus when TA finds out they would have to take care of W full time. I wanna see OQ as a father but not full-time. There is no upside if she turns them over to DD.

[bijoux]

The thing is, this isn't just Oliver's call. If there is one decision that required a team vote this entire season, it would be this one. And it should require agreement from every team member, not a majority vote. The presence of an unknown person puts them all at risk.

[tv echo]

I just hope they don't make it Felicity's call to bring BM into the Arrowcave!  You know, shifting the blame off of Oliver.

 

I think there's zero chance that BM will turn out to be bad. IIRC, in the flashback when Ollie told his mother that he got a girl pregnant, he also said that this girl was a good person. Then in 408, they made a point of saying that BM didn't cash the $1M check (likely forgetting about the second $1M check).  If anything, 415 will probably double down on saying or showing that BM's a good person and a great mother. (Ugh)

 

I think it's interesting that they chose to add Vixen to this particular episode - perhaps to draw in more viewers to counteract any loss of viewers due to the BMD?  Whatever the reason, it does the Vixen character a disservice, because her appearance is going to be overshadowed by the BMD.  I wish they had made her live-action debut in an episode more like the Constantine one.  But, yes, I haven't seen 415 yet, so maybe I'll be wrong and Vixen will be all anyone talks about come Thursday.

Edited February 21, 2016 by tv echo

[bijoux]

Not that I think Ollie was any judge of character (though he did realize what an ass Carter Bowen was, I'll give him that), but I doubt she'll turn evil.

[nksarmi]

I really hope they don't take Damien's powers yet. I love seeing him be evil. Neal is killing this role. I also think the show has not utilized him enough. The reason he is even in Star City or what ALL of his powers are hasn't been revealed and they are heading into episode 15. It might have been a mistake introducing the villain early if they weren't or didn't know how to use him properly.

 

I wonder if they are going to try something new and let this story line continue into the next season instead of closing it out. Right now IMO it seems like they have a lot of open ended story lines. Rushing through them to close out the season will be doing all of them an injustice again IMO.

 

Well I would have much preferred that a) Calculator was working for HIVE and b) we spent the entire back half of the season focused on Darhk and his powers - like no baby momma story AT ALL.  But honestly, I can see how they are going to prosecute him for anything or how the team can even defeat him while he has his powers.

[ComicFan777]

The thing is is that I would like Oliver to learn that chosen family is trustworthy.  If Oliver's inherent trust in blood family always pans out, it will never make him see that chosen family is just as important as blood family.  I know that BM will never turn out to be bad and it will further validate Oliver's actions.  For once, I just want Oliver to value Felicity and Diggle for everything that they do for him on a daily basis and see their love for him goes well beyond what blood family would ever do for him.  They have sacrificed so much to help him and it is not because of blood relation, it is purely out of love.

Edited February 21, 2016 by ComicFan777

[Midnight Lullaby]

I don't understand the logic of bringing in BM/W in on the secret, but perhaps it is OQ trying a new way. Maybe he feels it makes the situation better.

I do know that I don't want the BM to turn on TA or be working for DD. They have already made her character too much of a caricature for plot purposes. I want them to find W and then I want BM/W to move away and live a happy life. Perhaps OQ & co can visit them from time to time.

I don't need or want BM escalated to this evil or bad person that works with the big bad. She was awful for lying to OQ & making him lie to everyone, but she was protecting her son. Working with DD would destroy what little amt of respect I do have for the character. Plus when TA finds out they would have to take care of W full time. I wanna see OQ as a father but not full-time. There is no upside if she turns them over to DD.

I wouldn't want her to work for DD but it would fit her character perfectly IMO to ask DD to do an exchange (their identities/where's the lair) for her kid. She loves her son and doesn't know or care about TA. They are strangers. And she could even think she and her kid would be better off without Oliver after finding out he is the GA.

It wouldn't make her a particularly honorable person, not that she has showed she is so far, but it would be a logical behavior since all she cares about is to save her kid and she could see selling them out as the best option to assure his safety.

[bijoux]

The thing is is that I would like Oliver to learn that chosen family is trustworthy. If Oliver's inherent trust in blood family always pans out, it will never make him see that chosen family is just as important as blood family. I know that BM will never turn out to be bad and it will further validate Oliver's actions. For once, I just want Oliver to value Felicity and Diggle for everything that they do for him on a daily basis and see their love for him goes well beyond what blood family would ever do for him.

Thing is, this was actually true in the first two seasons. That's when the mood shifted to blood.

[dtissagirl]

I'm not even sure the blood family thing is intentional, or if it's just a subproduct of extremely bad writing.

Edited February 21, 2016 by dtissagirl

[ComicFan777]

If the writer's lesson of the day is that blood family more trustworthy than chosen family, I don't understand why they would think we would get invested in any of his other relationships.  Oliver is no hero if his loyalties would turn on a dime for blood family.  It would seem like a pretty sad story to watch. 

Edited February 21, 2016 by ComicFan777

[nksarmi]

I wouldn't want her to work for DD but it would fit her character perfectly IMO to ask DD to do an exchange (their identities/where's the lair) for her kid. She loves her son and doesn't know or care about TA. They are strangers. And she could even think she and her kid would be better off without Oliver after finding out he is the GA.

It wouldn't make her a particularly honorable person, not that she has showed she is so far, but it would be a logical behavior since all she cares about is to save her kid and she could see selling them out as the best option to assure his safety.

 

Oh my word - this would save the whole damn story for me on some level.  It would almost be poetic.  Oliver has been trusting a truly evil man - even going to great lengths to save that man's life - all because he is Thea's blood father.  Him deciding to trust BM with the entire team's secret (because I really don't think he held a vote for that one) when she has NO reason to protect their secret and EVERY reason (her son's life) to betray them - is the kind of dumb that deserves betrayal.

 

And I'm not sure it even would be betrayal.  I know we are hard on BM here, but for me - that's only because she asked him for this ridiculous lie and "mommy's friend" routine.  If she had just told him she didn't want him seeing her son and he could take her to court if he wanted - then I might have actually respected her.  Because the truth is - young Ollie did not want to be a father.  He wanted nothing to do with her or the baby.  Yes she lied (per Moira's request) and he never had the chance to change his mind - but does she really owe him the chance to just change his mind and pop in one day and decide he wants to be a dad after years of her doing it on her own?  Because I DO think it would have been years (with or without the Gambit sinking) before Ollie grew up enough to do anything but send her money.

 

Honestly, I don't think she even needed to lie. I think if she told young Ollie he had nothing to worry about and he wouldn't hear from her again - he wouldn't have asked any other questions than that. So once she walks out of his life and decides to raise the baby on her own - I'm not sure she owes him anything.  And she sure as heck doesn't know or owe Team Arrow anything. Oliver does, but she doesn't.  All she should care about is her son and his safety.  So her turning over a bunch of strangers who happen to be vigilantes to her son's kidnapper to get him back and scurry off to Central City actually makes a lot of sense to me.  I don't think she will do it - but I would be kind of impressed if she did.

 

Then maybe Oliver could learn that he should trust the people who have PROVEN themselves to him - not the people who just happen to share some blood with people he shares blood with.

[calliope1975]

I know this would never happen, but I would find it hilariously funny if one of DD's yellow zombie pills was given to Samantha before she was sent to Team Arrow and after everything that is said and done, she goes running back to DD with all info about Team Arrow.  That would show how monumentally stupid Oliver is for letting BM into the lair. 

 

You would think that, at some point, there would be consequences for having a revolving, open door to the lair. Why even keep it secret at this point? BMD, Nyssa, Malcolm, Lance, Andy, etc. all pop in at will apparently. I suspect Alex and Curtis may end up there before the season is done. 

 

I don't want TA to have to move again, but I would like the easy access to be addressed. 

[nksarmi]

You would think that, at some point, there would be consequences for having a revolving, open door to the lair. Why even keep it secret at this point? BMD, Nyssa, Malcolm, Lance, Andy, etc. all pop in at will apparently. I suspect Alex and Curtis may end up there before the season is done. 

 

I don't want TA to have to move again, but I would like the easy access to be addressed. 

 

William is going to be seen playing with baby Sara in the training area at some point.

[bijoux]

I suspect Alex and Curtis may end up there before the season is done.

Maybe they hold keggers there on the team's nights off. Seriously, I'm almost positive Curtis will be there before the season ends. At this point, why shouldn't he? He's been actively and knowingly helping GA since 4x03. It certainly makes him more trustworthy than some.

Edited February 21, 2016 by bijoux

[TwistedandBored]

These coming episodes are going to be loads of fun. I can just tell. 

[bijoux]

You should make your own fun. Somebody on Twitter commented the photos of Laurel and Samantha with, 'talk about a type'. And now I'm giggling as I imagine dumb Ollie being conditioned to interpret crossed arms as a mating call.

[TVHappy9463]

Reading this thread makes my head hurt, so many great ideas and theories, many better than the writers come up with.  I find it funny that a group of people who are not employed by the CW to write Arrow come up with better ideas than the people who are.

 

I agree with the quiet break up, it makes sense, i myself have had the quiet break up after the yelling screaming break up and reconciliation.  

I do not like seeing Samantha in the liar, to me that is more of betrayal then William. Not to mention all three standing there knowing they are all his x or current girlfriends. ewww.

 

I am on the fence about Laurel, I have never warmed up to her character, not sure if it's the writing or the acting.  While I would be ok with the character going, I am afraid of what they will bring in. What's that old saying, "sometimes the devil you know is better than the one you don't". I think it would be foolish to hope the creative team would not back fill the position on the team.  

 

In the end, the show will not completely fail this story line, but they don't have a great track record when it comes to executing on the "teases'.  We have a 50/50 shot, we either get dead Laurel or Samantha and William out off the show. I don't think we can have both. 

[statsgirl]

Anyone else just want this over with?  Give me the worst so I can just deal with it.

 BM bothers me because Oliver's been prioritizing her wishes over Felicity and now, with a shared son, she'll always be a part of his life. 

In real life, she'd be a part of Oliver's life, but I'm hoping not on the show.  Given viewer response to this storyline, which is hated as compared to the Poppy flashbacks which are just a yawn, I don't expect BM or William to show up again unless it's for a quick plot.  I'm even holding out hope that they won't show up for the wedding, although given that they brought back Ivy Town neighbour for just one (feeble) joke, maybe I'm too optimistic.

 

I don't need or want BM escalated to this evil or bad person that works with the big bad. She was awful for lying to OQ & making him lie to everyone, but she was protecting her son. Working with DD would destroy what little amt of respect I do have for the character. Plus when TA finds out they would have to take care of W full time. I wanna see OQ as a father but not full-time. There is no upside if she turns them over to DD.

It could make her somewhat consistent because right now, they're writing her all over the board.

 

She doesn't want William to know Oliver because ten years ago, when she was helping him cheat on his girlfriend, he was a douche and playboy. She admits he's no long like that but still wants him to stay away from William.  Then she agrees if he keeps it a secret from everyone including his CEO fiance to protect William he can spend time with him but lets Oliver go upstairs alone and play with William in his bedroom.  She hears that Oliver has been targeted by bad guys and his fiance is now paralyzed just by being with him but she still lets Oliver visit William.

 

She didn't cash Moira's cheque which would have been money to help William. If she didn't want to get her hands dirty herself, put it in a trust fund for him till he becomes an adult or needs it for university,

 

Going to DD and offering to trade information on Team Green Arrow for Willliam would not be bright but at least it would show that she's putting William first, which we haven't seen up to now because she's been putting Samantha first.  She can then be redeemed off-screen because this stupid show thinks everyone is redeemable.

[wonderwall]

Anyone else just want this over with?  Give me the worst so I can just deal with it.

 

This is where I'm at. I haven't really said much about the BM drama because there's really nothing to say because it's that illogical and nonsensical. There's nothing to justify Oliver's actions (because it's so nonsensical), and the whole storyline is so stupid that I can't find it in myself to complain because it is what it is and now I just want to get this storyline over and done with. I can't even find it in myself to fault any of the characters because the plot is so convoluted and contrived that it doesn't feel right to blame the characters, just MG. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

Since the synopsis of 4x15 talks about a heart to heart between Thea and MM I'm thinking DD isn't going to tell them MM told him about William? This way MM can go behind their back for the rest of the season, LOL. Even if how can Oliver not wonder if he might be responsible?

[catrox14]

I have an additional reason for hating all three being in the lair with Oliver.

 

Okay, Oliver has been an asshole and has done some really stupid things, but what is the show really trying to tell me by putting all of them together? I mean is it just to continue reminding the audience that he was a philandering asshole who philandered and we should NEVER ever forget that and he can't be allowed to move past it? I mean I just don't get it. 

Edited February 21, 2016 by catrox14

[way2interested]

Since the synopsis of 4x15 talks about a heart to heart between Thea and MM I'm thinking DD isn't going to tell them MM told him about William? This way MM can go behind their back for the rest of the season, LOL. Even if how can Oliver not wonder if he might be responsible?

I can picture Thea telling Malcolm that Darhk kidnapped William and Malcolm acting concerned for Thea's sake (since I'm guessing she had no idea what happened in 413) without revealing that he's the one who told Darhk in the first place.

Worst case scenario is that Malcolm ends up really feeling guilty about it and goes back to that awful "grey" area that the writers like him to be in for Thea. Best case scenario is that Thea finds out that Malcolm lied to her and decides to cut ties with him completely and joins the "kill the son of a bitch" train.

[Chaser]

If DD is depowered and arrested and they don't know that Malcolm turned on them, I could see them believing BM and Kid are safe.

That way when Felicity gives Oliver back the ring she can tell him to spend time with the Kid. Then she can say she knew in her bones he would be a great father.

I don't believe the actors have been seen on set, so we just get casual comments about Olivers weekends.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Chaser

[Morrigan2575]

If Oliver is seriously stupid enough not to think hmm, who knew about William and might have a grudge against me?

I'm just going to die laughing at the stupidity of the show and the EPs utter blindness when it comes to Malcolm Merlyn

[Chaser]

I wouldn't be surprised unfortunately.

[dtissagirl]

I'm like, 99% sure at some point in the near future Malcolm will totally see the demon spawn as the grandson he never had.

[DeadZeus]

William is going to be seen playing with baby Sara in the training area at some point.

Speaking of training area.. Where are the darn Workout scenes this season...

[SmallScreenDiva]

So how many know about Oliver, the team and the lair now? Might be easier to count those who are NOT in the know. Also, I'm sure the show is going to ignore this, until it needs it for a stupid plot later, but there is Malcolm and about a dozen former LOA members who have full knowledge of who Oliver, The Flash and the teams are (2x08, when Malcolm freaked Barry out by stepping out of the shadows). Why is Oliver & Co. not hauling ass and moving to yet another secret lair?!? (I know, I know, they blew the budget on the high-tech but easily penetrable lair). Oy, this show.

 

I'm also wondering if the power problems down in the lair will play a part later in the season or if they're just an excuse so Felicity keeps asking Curtis for help. That's twice now they've been mentioned.

[tv echo]

So how many know about Oliver, the team and the lair now? Might be easier to count those who are NOT in the know. Also, I'm sure the show is going to ignore this, until it needs it for a stupid plot later, but there is Malcolm and about a dozen former LOA members who have full knowledge of who Oliver, The Flash and the teams are (2x08, when Malcolm freaked Barry out by stepping out of the shadows). Why is Oliver & Co. not hauling ass and moving to yet another secret lair?!? (I know, I know, they blew the budget on the high-tech but easily penetrable lair). Oy, this show. 

 

And these former LOA members are now free to sell their services (and knowledge) to the highest bidder - which further illustrates the short-sightedness of Nyssa's decision.

 

ITA with what Laura Hurley said in response to a fan's comments about the promotional pics for 415:

Yep, I’ve seen the stills, and I second your “Good lord.”

 

I actually wish that Vixen was being saved for a different episode because I think that 4x15 should be about the climax of this stupid baby mama drama without trying to incorporate and do justice to a new character. I’ve been comparing the baby mama plot to food poisoning, with the climax being that moment when the queasiness turns into vomiting. You don’t experiment on a tasty new morsel while you’re vomiting. You want until you’ve stopped throwing up and your system has settled a little bit, and there’s nothing to do but wait out the sickness once you’ve eaten the bad food.

 

That said, I’m not going to start freaking out that 4x15 might be a Time of Death 2.0 when I haven’t seen it yet. The show has surprised me in the past. Maybe I’ll like the episode enough to come up with metaphors involving fewer bodily fluids afterward.

http://laurawritesabout.tumblr.com/post/139745295346/did-you-see-those-4x15-stills-good-lord-baby

Edited February 22, 2016 by tv echo

[kismet]

The poorly written BMD analogy to food poisoning is perfect!

This whole storyline is plot for plotty plot. It was so poorly prepared & concocted that it is just like a poorly prepared food item that poisons everything around it. And like food poisoning there is nothing you can do except wait it out. Perhaps stay hydrated with good vids & fics.

I was gonna say I love how they are filling the last week of sweeps with mini crossovers. Which is kina cool. However, I wonder if they thought they would pull people back in from Flash who were just desperate to find out how all this BMD played out or finished. MG is probably wondering why more audience members are not eagerly awaiting his next epic chapter in his ongoing BM saga.

[dtissagirl]

So the Philippines trailer shows O/F having a heartbreaking convo in a parking lot and then DD just showing up?

 

I guess they're in the parking lot so DD can show up?

Edited February 22, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Ann Mack]

I swear after seeing the Philippines 4x15 trailer my heart just aches for Felicity and the bomb shell about to be dropped on her! She deserves so much better than this damn story line is giving her IMO. 

 

I know I should wait and see, but I don't see any rainbows, unicorns, or puppies for Felicity in this episode. 

[apinknightmare]

So the Philippines trailer shows O/F having a heartbreaking convo in a parking lot and then DD just showing up?

I guess they're in the parking lot so DD can show up?

I like to have all my meaningful convos in areas where I can get run over!

Hopefully they're at the hospital meeting with a dodgy surgeon to implant that thingamabob into Felicity's spine, not just loitering. ::fingers crossed::

Edited February 22, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Midnight Lullaby]

They are really stressing how in love and perfect they are aren't they?

[cambridgeguy]

 

I love that they're probably going to have her approach some doctor and ask him to implant this non FDA-regulated thing in her spine. Since there seems to be only one doctor on this show, I hope she goes to the dude who told her he wouldn't inject him with the nanites.  Maybe Curtis can operate on her!

They know a doctor (Caitlin Snow) who has experience with unusual medical procedures.  Coincidentally enough, she also got to treat Barry after Zoom broke his back.  Felicity should head over to Star Labs and take Curtis with her.  Creating some sort of partnership would help explain how the Star Labs crew manages to pay their bills.

 

 

You would think that, at some point, there would be consequences for having a revolving, open door to the lair. Why even keep it secret at this point? BMD, Nyssa, Malcolm, Lance, Andy, etc. all pop in at will apparently. I suspect Alex and Curtis may end up there before the season is done.

Well, the lair was designed by Cisco, the guy who works at a lab where anyone (and boy do I mean anyone) can wander in without a problem.  It's consistent.

[Midnight Lullaby]

By the way judging from that scene Oliver has no idea his kid was taken which is kinda hilarious.

[looptab]

I love DD mocking them. The Christmas jab was lovely.

[Ann Mack]

By the way judging from that scene Oliver has no idea his kid was taken which is kinda hilarious.

I noticed that. I was wondering what time of day or night it is because Samantha the oh so concerned parent and protector of her son has either 1. Not realized the kid is missing 2. Think he's up in his room being really really quiet  3. Is fucking clueless 4. Doesn't think Oliver needs to know until she needs his help and the help of those she told him he couldn't tell about the kid. The same people who will drop whatever it is they are doing to find the kid.

 

This story line just keeps getting dumber and dumber.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Ann Mack

[Midnight Lullaby]

I noticed that. I was wondering what time of day or night it is because Samantha the oh so concerned parent and protector of her son has either 1. Not realized the kid is missing 2. Think he's up in his room being really really quiet  3. Is fucking clueless 4. Doesn't think Oliver needs to know until she needs his help and the help of those she told him he couldn't tell about the kid. The same people who will drop whatever it is they are doing to find the kid.

 

This story line just keeps getting dumber and dumber.

Well last episode they showed it's night. We also have to consider it takes time to get from CC to SC so I'm really wondering what his mom was doing all this time. Or like you said she simply decided not to tell Oliver like always! It's not like he has any right to know, LOL

[dtissagirl]

Please let Oliver have to call Baby Mama to tell her the kid's been kidnapped. PLEASE LET THIS HAPPEN.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Please let Oliver have to call Baby Mama to tell her the kid's been kidnapped. PLEASE LET THIS HAPPEN.

This would be hilarious.

[hogwash]

Isn't Arrow's timeline mostly real time? Even though it would be another hilarious addition to this garbage storyline, I hope it hasn't been a week since William's been kidnapped. 

[Morrigan2575]

I like to have all my meaningful convos in areas where I can get run over!

Hopefully they're at the hospital meeting with a dodgy surgeon to implant that thingamabob into Felicity's spine, not just loitering. ::fingers crossed::

That was my thought as well.  Then again. I'm convinced Felicity will get the surgery as part of the 4 minute montage that ends 415 and they'll use the 2 week break to cover down time so BTW 416 rolls around, Felicity will be walking.

[Ann Mack]

It's really amazing how much they are pushing the "VIXEN" aspect of the upcoming episode and NOT so much BM or at least not yet. I know the promo shows Oliver yelling something about "know my son is safe" (swear I feel no sympathy for him at all  (is that wrong of me?) and just want to punch him in the throat). I seriously, cannot wait for this episode to be OVER. Problem is I guess it won't be OVER until the end of the season because we have to continue to deal with the fall-out of Oliver's dumb decision and betrayal of Felicity's trust until this season ends hopefully it ends this season.

[dtissagirl]

That was my thought as well.  Then again. I'm convinced Felicity will get the surgery as part of the 4 minute montage that ends 415 and they'll use the 2 week break to cover down time so BTW 416 rolls around, Felicity will be walking.

 

SHE'LL BE WALKING DOWN THE AISLE IN OLIVER'S DREAM HAHAHAHAHA. Like, that's how 416 opens.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Isn't Arrow's timeline mostly real time? Even though it would be another hilarious addition to this garbage storyline, I hope it hasn't been a week since William's been kidnapped.

Usually it is. But even if this episode started as close at the previous one as possible Oliver and Felicity had the engagement party the night the kid was kidnapped so it's been at least a day. From their clothes it's a different night.

Also even if it wasn't he is ten so he should be home at night and it takes time to get from CC to SC so even in the best case scenario his mom wouldn't have called his dad after their kid went missing for hours at night.

[looptab]

Maybe DD can teleport other people beside himself?

And don't forget that they don't care about distances on this show..Nanda Parbat was just 3 bus stops from Verdant.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Even in that case how don't you realize a ten years old is missing at 9-10 at night? I swear I pay more attention to where my dog is, lol

[looptab]

Eh, I guess to me that's not much of a problem. I know they'll just explain it away with some dumb line. It wouldn't surprise me if she just pops up in Star City. But I'm okay blaming her and say she is a garbage human being who doesn't even notice her son's missing until the show will tell me otherwise :)

[Ann Mack]

I'm seeing the show having her a little disheveled (this is the CW) and shallow breathing telling all and any who cares to listen "I tried to stop him but couldn't" then "he did something to knock me out. When I came through I thought it was a nightmare then I realized William was missing". "That's when I decided it's better not to call you but travel the 6 hour distance to you so I could tell you in person". "Oh Oliver.. what are we going to do to find OUR son?" (only "our" now because it serves a purpose for her). Ugh I hate even imagining scenarios for this crap story line.