Spoiler Discussion Thread

[wonderwall]

This seems on point:

 

[Morrigan2575]

You know this would all make a ton more sense if 415 and 416 were aired in reverse order. 414 debate, wedding fast approaching. 416 wedding happens but gets crashed by Cupid and never completes. 415 Samantha/ William come to town, Felicity finds out secret and dumps Oliver.

I'd almost prefer that to 416 fake/dream wedding butx it is what it is.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

I know people really want the kid to go away forever but I don't see the show doing that, especially since the show had Lyla and Digg have baby Sara. The whole team leads a dangerous life, not just Oliver.

[dtissagirl]

So, Calculator in 412 + 413, and then LIES LIES LIES and BMD in 414 and 415.

I really hope while Oliver's hallucinating weddings in 416, Felicity is on vacation at a super fancy spa.

[AyChihuahua]

Isn't that the one we pegged was going to be an engagement party?

 

Now I'm wondering if the wedding is actually for real because David Ramsey referred to Oliver as Felicity's "husband" in one interview. 

Fiance is future husband. It is not a real wedding.

I know people really want the kid to go away forever but I don't see the show doing that, especially since the show had Lyla and Digg have baby Sara. The whole team leads a dangerous life, not just Oliver.

Huge difference bw very young child of supporting character and ten-year-old kid of main character. 

[hogwash]

Thanks for the replies. Wow at this being so predictable. So the death brings them together. 

[AyChihuahua]

You know this would all make a ton more sense if 415 and 416 were aired in reverse order. 414 debate, wedding fast approaching. 416 wedding happens but gets crashed by Cupid and never completes. 415 Samantha/ William come to town, Felicity finds out secret and dumps Oliver.

I'd almost prefer that to 416 fake/dream wedding butx it is what it is.

If my theory is correct the hallucinated/dreamt wedding has an actual story purpose, so it has to happen post-breakup.

[apinknightmare]

I know people really want the kid to go away forever but I don't see the show doing that, especially since the show had Lyla and Digg have baby Sara. The whole team leads a dangerous life, not just Oliver.

 

Right, but the whole reason the mother has for wanting to keep the kid away from Oliver is because she's worried he's going to get hurt by being in Oliver's shitty life. If he gets kidnapped because of who his father is, why on earth would she let Oliver spend time with William, and why on earth would Oliver risk him? Seems like a setup for the shittiest parents of the year award if BM and the kid stick around. 

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

 

Huge difference bw very young child of supporting character and ten-year-old kid of main character. 

I'm just talking about the danger aspect. It makes Digg and Lyla look awful for willingly bringing a kid into this situation knowing the life they choose to lead.

[Guest]

My brain hurts from all the dumb contrived storytelling. 

[AyChihuahua]

I'm just talking about the danger aspect. It makes Digg and Lyla look awful for willingly bringing a kid into this situation knowing the life they choose to lead.

She lives with two professional badasses, and per S3, is babysat by ARGUS badasses. The spawn lives with a single mother [who's an awful terrible disgusting person] with no protection. Even if they got him a protection detail, that's nothing like actually living with the Green Arrow.

[dtissagirl]

The problem isn't the danger. Baby Sara isn't a character that needs to be written. She's a prop. William so far has been used like that too, but any kind of long term presence means treating him like a real character -- giving him storylines, conflict, building him sets, dealing with the nightmare that is shooting kids his age who can't be on set for hours on end per child labor laws, etc. THAT is the problem.

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

She lives with two professional badasses, and per S3, is babysat by ARGUS badasses. The spawn lives with a single mother [who's an awful terrible disgusting person] with no protection. Even if they got him a protection detail, that's nothing like actually living with the Green Arrow.

And we just saw ARGUS can be infiltrated at any time if someone wants to bad enough. Lyla herself was just kidnapped. Waller just died. Lyla, I'm sure has made many enemies over the years. Nobody should have had kids on this show while doing what they do.

[AyChihuahua]

And we just saw ARGUS can be infiltrated at any time if someone wants to bad enough. Lyla herself was just kidnapped. Waller just died. Lyla, I'm sure has made many enemies over the years. Nobody should have had kids on this show while doing what they do.

No one should live in Star City, either. 502 people who had nothing to do with vigilantes died in the Undertaking. Slade killed how many people? That's just the premise of the show.

 

Your original statement is that they won't send the kid to offscreenville, see Sara existing and living with her parents. Now your statement is that neither Sara nor the spawn should be on the show, bc none of these people should parent children. So, I'm confused...what is your argument here?

Edited January 29, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[wonderwall]

I know people really want the kid to go away forever but I don't see the show doing that, especially since the show had Lyla and Digg have baby Sara. The whole team leads a dangerous life, not just Oliver.

 

Why would you put this out in the world??? :p 

 

I think that there's no place for a 10 yo kid on teh show.... But then again the writers may disagree, so...

[hogwash]

Wait. So Oliver's still not gonna tell her after everything they've been through since coming back to Starling + an engagement party, set wedding date, etc. Because the BM made him pinky swear. This is what they're going with to break up them up? I can't wait for the reviews for this lazy/contrived mess.

[tarotx]

Sara wasn't planned but both her parents are in the business, Though remember Diggle has already wondered about moving her away from Star.  William's mom isn't in the business and since there is a chance to give him a loving parent away from the business I can see why that would be what Oliver and baby mom decide. 

 

Which makes me wonder if they will go with the irony that it's the sending the child off to live without a father that is the final push for Felicity into giving back the ring. Like before it's a I don't know-we're talk after saving William and then knowing how William will feel Felicity is broken and gives the ring back.

Edited January 29, 2016 by tarotx

[apinknightmare]

Wait. So Oliver's still not gonna tell her after everything they've been through since coming back to Starling + an engagement party, set wedding date, etc. Because the BM made him pinky swear. This is what they're going with to break up them up? I can't wait for the reviews for this lazy/contrived mess.

 

Yes, the whole reason they had BM make that ridiculous-ass request was so that it would wind up breaking up Oliver and Felicity. Because this is obviously a storyline they had planned for Oliver and Laurel, and there it would've made sense for him to keep the kid a secret willingly, since he was conceived while Oliver and Laurel were still together. They decided to stick with it here, I guess, because they are hacks.

[Guest]

With how long they've planned this kid storyline, I definitely think we're gonna see daddy Oliver at some point. This is the whole reason why SA was so excited about it. Not the lie, but the chance to play dad on the show. The saving grace is I don't think we'll see it very often. Maybe once or twice a season if we're lucky. I just can't see them bringing on this kid full time or as full time as Oliver having a child would be. Like even if O/F ever had a kid (highly doubtful and not something I want) I doubt we'd even see their baby that much tbh LOL.

[AyChihuahua]

Wait. So Oliver's still not gonna tell her after everything they've been through since coming back to Starling + an engagement party, set wedding date, etc. Because the BM made him pinky swear. This is what they're going with to break up them up? I can't wait for the reviews for this lazy/contrived mess.

Yes. Too all of that.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Fiance is future husband. It is not a real wedding.

 

Uhm, yeah, thanks, I'm familiar with the definition ... except he didn't say future husband, or fiance for that matter. This is the quote from the Entertainment Tonight interview: His advice to Oliver was, "Put the mission aside and give into the man, to the husband, to the lover and go be by her side." That will be his advice to him, but I'm betting you good money he won't listen.

 

My thinking is that the interview was probably done Tuesday (ET and other media asked for questions for David on Monday) after they've shot the "wedding" scene. I just find David's word choice interesting. Although it raises another question, why is Diggle giving this kind of advice to Oliver again? 

[thegirlsleuth]

This sounds terrible. I hate all the contrived misery they are heaping on Oliver and Felicity, and in particular, I hate the public humiliation it sounds like Felicity is going to have to go through.  I think I could put up with the stupid storytelling because it would be offset by the pleasure I would get in ranting about the stupid storytelling, but I don't know if I can bring myself to watch Felicity get publicly humiliated. I may read your comments of those episodes and enjoy your rants and return in episode 17.

[Guest]

I think the worst part of this storyline is that it's happening to Felicity at probably her lowest point. She's paralyzed, then she meets her evil dad and that probably shakes her and makes her question some things. Then she finds out the man she loves has been hiding a secret kid, and she'll very likely find out in the worst way possible. Then they break up. Then someone they love dies. SO GREAT! SUCH FUN! 

[dtissagirl]

Wait. So Oliver's still not gonna tell her after everything they've been through since coming back to Starling + an engagement party, set wedding date, etc. Because the BM made him pinky swear. This is what they're going with to break up them up? I can't wait for the reviews for this lazy/contrived mess.

The best part? Per what Steve said last weekend at HVFF, the original script for 408 had Oliver telling Felicity a blatant lie at the end. Which got changed to a ~lie of omission~ [that doesn't even have to exist because HOW would BM even know if Oliver told Felicity anything anyway?], but by the looks of it, the conclusion to this lamefest was built upon A LIE, so here we are.

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

No one should live in Star City, either. 502 people who had nothing to do with vigilantes died in the Undertaking. Slade killed how many people? That's just the premise of the show.

 

Your original statement is that they won't send the kid to offscreenville, see Sara existing and living with her parents. Now your statement is that neither Sara nor the spawn should be on the show, bc none of these people should parent children. So, I'm confused...what is your argument here?

...ok? So how is it a good choice to bring a baby into this situation that they are facing?

 

My original point while maybe half formed is that I just that I think its dumb if the show says Oliver can never ever have a relationship with his son because of the life he leads but its ok to bring a baby directly into this world. They choose to introduce parenthood into the show before they brought on Oliver's kid. I think there is a reason for that. Oliver will eventually have some kind of relationship with his son in my opinion.

[AyChihuahua]

...ok? So how is it a good choice to bring a baby into this situation that they are facing?

 

My original point while maybe half formed is that I just that I think its dumb if the show says Oliver can never ever have a relationship with his son because of the life he leads but its ok to bring a baby directly into this world. They choose to introduce parenthood into the show before they brought on Oliver's kid. I think there is a reason for that. Oliver will eventually have some kind of relationship with his son in my opinion.

I...didn't say it was good. I said they were very different situations, both in-show and out-of-show.

Uhm, yeah, thanks, I'm familiar with the definition ... except he didn't say future husband, or fiance for that matter. This is the quote from the Entertainment Tonight interview: His advice to Oliver was, "Put the mission aside and give into the man, to the husband, to the lover and go be by her side." That will be his advice to him, but I'm betting you good money he won't listen.

 

My thinking is that the interview was probably done Tuesday (ET and other media asked for questions for David on Monday) after they've shot the "wedding" scene. I just find David's word choice interesting. Although it raises another question, why is Diggle giving this kind of advice to Oliver again? 

We had a whole discussion about this earlier, that DR had probably just finished filming the fake wedding when he did the interview. And that people, especially in in-person interviews, tend not to use perfectly precise language. I do not see any possible way for this to be a real O/F wedding.

[hogwash]

The worse part is when 408 aired I could kinda see what they were doing. But now? I'm supposed believe the Oliver from 409-411 wouldn't tell his fiancee about his kid? 

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

I...didn't say it was good. I said they were very different situations, both in-show and out-of-show.

 

No, I get Oliver's life is paramount and the most dire always. But for me they can't have Oliver selflessly walking away from his child because of the life he leads and not make Digg and Lyla look a little selfish for bringing a baby into a similar life. Just my opinion. I'm going to drop it now.

[hogwash]

I'm pretty sure Diggle and Lyla had a conversation about this in that S03 Suicide Squad aka the beginning of the DCU culling. Diggle was definitely thinking about walking back while Lyla quit ARGUS completely. Plus Oliver benched him in 301 because of Baby Sara. I don't know what happened with Diggle but Lyla's still not really doing anything too dangerous anymore (insert gif of her punching that dude out). 

 

Oliver's got that "the life I lead" speech memorized. BM doesn't know about Oliver's side job. If she did, it might change her personal opinion about him (bye douche Ollie!) but I don't see why it would change how she feels about Oliver's relationship with her son. 

[calliope1975]

I give up

 

I'm with you. I don't even know what's happening anymore. When I've said I wanted Felicity to walk away from Oliver over the BMD when she dumps his ass, I didn't mean down the aisle. And I can't believe I want the break up to happen ASAP just to get the contrived bullshit over. 

 

When this airs, I won't even have the luxury of checking East Coast reactions because I'll be (temporarily) living on the East Coast. Frowny face. 

 

Don't know if it's at the loft but there is a fancy dress party.

 

The one bright spot. I do love fancy dress parties.

 

The worse part is when 408 aired I could kinda see what they were doing. But now? I'm supposed believe the Oliver from 409-411 wouldn't tell his fiancee about his kid? 

 

This whole story line is a mess. By ignoring the BMD for so many episodes, they've failed the entire reason for the impending breakup. It doesn't help that Oliver/SA hasn't looked at Felicity with any level of guilt, only adoring heart eyes. And he can do nuance, so I don't know what is happening with this arc. 

[way2interested]

Part of me thinks that this whole debacle between Felicity and her father has to prompt something in Oliver, like a "oh, right, I should probably visit my son," or "oh, I should probably not abandon my child like this guy did," which then prompts him to feel guilty in 414. I'm just thinking that this kid thing is coming back almost out of nowhere after not being mentioned coming onto 4 episodes now. I just kind of wonder if there is a trigger to bring this kid back into the story rather than just a last-minute mention of Oliver visiting the kid or a dramatic reveal during the debate. Those two things may happen, but I hope that there's at least a small set-up that makes it less random or abrupt.

 

To me, I just want the parallel between Felicity and her dad and Oliver's son situation. It's there if they want to make it, and that would at least carry some of what I wanted from an "Oliver's son gets in between of Oliver and Felicity's relationship" story, even if it's definitely not this one.

[Guest]

Even though this show burns through plots, I can't believe they'd have O/F move in together, get engaged, get married and then split up all in the same season. That wedding isn't happening. Nope. It's trap and we're being played somehow. I'm still going with hallucination or dream. It doesn't add up with what we know pre 416 otherwise. 

[jay741982]

I'm sorry but Oliver just starting to feel guilty in a few weeks for Felicity not knowing makes him look like a Douche. I won't have sympathy if Felicity dumps his ass hard cause I'm pretty sure BMD won't be the only reason. I want Olicity together and Happy but no unnecessary drama has to be created

[statsgirl]

That's probably right, that Felicity's reaction to her father is what makes Oliver think he should tell her about William.  Is this the episode where MM tells him he's pretty but stupid?

 

Possible saving grace -- written by WM and Oscar Balderrama, even if it is Bam Bam directing.

 

And we just saw ARGUS can be infiltrated at any time if someone wants to bad enough. Lyla herself was just kidnapped. Waller just died. Lyla, I'm sure has made many enemies over the years. Nobody should have had kids on this show while doing what they do.

Sara is the reason Lyla quit ARGUS last season, because when she was on a mission with Diggle, Cupid & Deadshot, Sara almost lost both her parents.  So they have addressed it in-show.

 

Oliver's got that "the life I lead" speech memorized. BM doesn't know about Oliver's side job. If she did, it might change her personal opinion about him (bye douche Ollie!) but I don't see why it would change how she feels about Oliver's relationship with her son. 

This is why BM's conditions make zero sense -- she doesn't know about Oliver's side job, she just wants him away from William because he was a douche 8 years ago.  Yeah, but he's cleaned himself up and he's running for mayor, he's someone William could brag about as a father.

[wonderwall]

Wendy wrote 320, 401, 403, 409 which were all really good (seriously since when did Wendy become really good at writing episodes??). Oscar Balderrama wrote 320, 405 (which was entertaining regardless of the ridiculousness that was Laurel in that episode), and 410 which the Olicity scenes were pretty perfect if you ask me (but I seem to be in the minority on this board about Oliver in that episode)

 

so right now i'm leaning towards being a tad bit more positive. 

 

I'm worried about 416 though because that's being written by newbies. 

Edited January 29, 2016 by wonderwall

[theacostov]

Hahahaha oh arrow. They're actually planning a wedding and Oliver just suddenly starts feeling guilty about his lies he hasn't shown any indication of even remembering. Like maybe I should tell my impending wife that's she's about to become a step mother. This storyline is so bad it's actually hilarious. Hahahaha.

[looptab]

Then all that BMD setup would have been for five minutes of relationship tension? 

 

SA said 4.15 ends on a note that Olicity people will not like. Then they reconcile in the first five of 4.16 and have enough time to get a fancy wedding set up, and then what, are divorcing by the time of the FF? And again, get married outside of sweeps?

 

It seems FAR more likely that DR is being loose with language and talking about scenes he just filmed.

You must have missed the part where I said I was joking :P I put it there as a worst case scenario, just in case Stephen had lied at the con - there had been that misunderstanding with a fan sating at first that 415 would be good. But I do agree that there is no way the wedding in 416 is really happening, because:

- Outside of sweeps;

- No one from the cast, or the EPs, has said a word about it. Last year we knew about the Dyla wedding not just from CG, but the cast posted photos from the wedding, too. There's no way anyone involved with the show wouldn't hype an Olicity wedding.

 

And, there is no way it's supposed to be happening and then gets interrupted or someone gets dumped at the altar or whatever even, because Donna would be there if it were the actual, real, planned wedding.

 

So I'm definitely with you guys that's not real and it's either a hallucination or a dream, because of the reasons stated above and because I do like and wish for @dtissagirl's Oliver #foreveralone scenario.

Edited January 29, 2016 by looptab

[bijoux]

Hahahaha oh arrow. They're actually planning a wedding and Oliver just suddenly starts feeling guilty about his lies he hasn't shown any indication of even remembering. Like maybe I should tell my impending wife that's she's about to become a step mother. This storyline is so bad it's actually hilarious. Hahahaha.

 

This is basically my reaction to that "Oliver starts worrying/feeling bad" bit. I didn't want to respond when I first read it, thinking maybe it was just a kneejerk reaction. Nope. Still hilarious as hell.

[dtissagirl]

I just kind of wonder if there is a trigger to bring this kid back into the story rather than just a last-minute mention of Oliver visiting the kid or a dramatic reveal during the debate. Those two things may happen, but I hope that there's at least a small set-up that makes it less random or abrupt.

 

What KILLS ME WITH HYSTERICAL LAUGHTER is Oliver needing a trigger to remember that he's hiding the kid in the first place. Which I totally think is what these hack writers are gonna go for, but all it does is me worrying that maybe Oliver should go see a neurologist for these super weird memory problems he seems to have.

Edited January 29, 2016 by dtissagirl

[bijoux]

I was wondering just the other day whether the good doctor from the pilot ordered a brain scan.

[apinknightmare]

How would we know whether he remembers now or not though? No one on the show knows, so he'd either have to call Barry for a chat about feels, or call the BM for a chat about feels. He won't have anyone to talk to about it until he spills to whoever it is that isn't Felicity (Diggle, I guess, if DR's interviews are anything to go by) like the moron he is.

[dtissagirl]

There's no way to know because they aren't writing it in any way. Which I think they're doing on purpose, because this is how they think secrets and lies should be written: it's not really a storyline, it's something that lurks in the background and suddenly jumps onto unsuspecting audience members from behind a bush.

 

They could have done some script work on it. Have Oliver looking up William's school site and looking at his picture at some school function the start of a scene, and then closing the site when someone else arrives. But they haven't.

[bijoux]

I'm reacting to the description saying Oliver begins to feel guilty. And that, to me, is hilarious. Although that's a little over two months after the fact so by their timeline. Progress? That's even more hilarious.

 

The episode may turn out to be great and I'll be, 4x11? Feh. This one is the best! I'm doubtful, but ok, possible. The description still kills me.

[apinknightmare]

I forgot about the "begins" part of the synopsis, haha. Disregard my previous comment, then!

[Morrigan2575]

I do wonder if we'll find out that Oliver has been visiting Samantha and William offscreen between 411 and 414? 

 

BTW - I'm not convinced that the EPs believe the ultimate/only ending for this story with Samantha/William is to give them the Chuck Cunningham treatment.  I certainly would like it but, the EPs very rarely agree with me about what is good/right/smart/ storytelling.  If they did, Sara wouldn't have been thrown in a dumpster and they never would have had Oliver/Nyssa marry

Edited January 29, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[apinknightmare]

I don't know what their plan is, but I'm really curious about how this storyline ends up, since in order to provide (flimsy) reasoning for the lie, they've written it so that the only believable outcome is for them to disappear from Oliver's life. I'm prepared for them to stick around though.

I wonder what happens to make Oliver "begin" to feel guilty? I certainly hope it's not some off-handed comment from Felicity about their first child or something followed by a sad faced close up, LOL.

[looptab]

What if Oliver goes to CC in 14? Since he begins to feel uneasy lying to Felicity, he decides to go there and ask Samantha to revise her conditions. And that's what leads to the kidnapping in 15. The secret is exposed then.

I know this sounds completely stupid, but mostly I really don't want Bamford directing anything to do with this so I'll be grasping at straws from now on to keep my peace of mind.

[bijoux]

I wonder what happens to make Oliver "begin" to feel guilty? I certainly hope it's not some off-handed comment from Felicity about their first child or something followed by a sad faced close up, LOL.

 

I didn't even think about it, but oh my God, it's totally going to be this. I will seriously die laughing.

[apinknightmare]

What if Oliver goes to CC in 14? Since he begins to feel uneasy lying to Felicity, he decides to go there and ask Samantha to revise her conditions. And that's what leads to the kidnapping in 15. The secret is exposed then.

Could be! If this does happen, BM/the kid sticking around will make even less sense.

[looptab]

It's nice of them, though, that they don't even give us 24 hours to enjoy the post-episode good feeling before bringing us back to reality. I appreciate it.

Could be! If this does happen, BM/the kid sticking around will make even less sense.

As long as that's the endgame, haha.