Spoiler Discussion Thread

[looptab]

To me it could go either way, either Oliver needs to keep his mind occupied, or he could be convinced it's going to end badly anyway, might as well throw some Ghosts off a roof and electrocute them.

I agree that they will play the whole episode with Felicity's fate up in the air. The shots of thr grave in the promos are hilarious, though. :)

[BkWurm1]

The shots of thr grave in the promos are hilarious, though. :)

 

They really went all in on them, didn't they.  My first reaction was how glad I was a veteran TV viewer because I'm sure back in my teens I would have fallen for what they were selling.  I mean, a preview wouldn't try to mislead me, would it? 

 

What I am really curious about is this the episode that Donna finds out about TA? Or she reveals that she already knew. Because OQ needing to not be near Donna to support her only makes sense if Donna gives him the ok and FS would want you tracking down bad guys. But no mayoral candidate would be needed in the field tracking down leads. Which makes me think that Donna is gonna have her own "I know" moment with OQ. Which if it happens I will be so psyched for. DS may not be as smart as FS but she is certainly not dumb.

 

I'm curious about this too.  They had Donna claim she never watches news and thus missed the man hunt for Oliver aka the Arrow but that kind of news story seems to be unavoidable.  Even if she didn't catch it until it came with oops, they got the wrong guy, she has to know the rumors.  I'd also think she might have put two and two together that her daughter and boyfriend just happened to have JUST moved back to Star City and this Green Arrow character shows up. 

 

Still, Donna could remain in the dark whether on purpose or accidentally.  Oliver as Mayor wouldn't have reason to go hunt anyone down but he could say the police had more questions or some other excuse.  Mayor's in Star City get targeted so it's not like she'd be surprised that Felicity was in danger. She wouldn't need to go looking for another reason why Felicity was in danger. 

 

Still, I would love if she'd known since last season and just didn't think it was any of her business. 

Edited December 25, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Belinea]

Once again I cannot stress enough how much I hate the 'Felicity is in a wheelchair' speculation. Because the more spoilers come out, the more it seems as though it might really happen. I am still holding out hope that it will only be a temporary paralysis because I somehow don't have faith that the writers could sell a permanent paralysis all the well on an emotional level. Furthermore it would be somewhat of a drag to always have Felicity stuck in the lair because she literally holds back the action. Additionally wouldn't it be awful the go after a handicapped person who cannot help herself alone (as much as she used to) anymore. 

Couldn't they come up with an emotional storyline for Felicity without it being so overdramatic. I would have enjoyed watching that too. 

[Morrigan2575]

I doubt Felicity is going to be in a wheelchair for very long. I'm thinking 2-3 episodes at most. Maybe, as someone pointed out, they'll want to keep her in the wheelchair until 413 so they can get their Calculator/"Oracle" showdown.

The show doesn't really do long-term continuous storylines. Normally they set something up, drop it and then revisit when they're ready to complete the story. Laurel’s addiction, Thea's bloodlust and Oliver's secret kid all follow the same pattern. I just really can't see them wanting to spend the time on a long-term paralysis story.

There's also the fact that this is The CW, the pretty people network. I can't see a Network Executive being OK with their defacto leading lady and 1/2 of the main Arrow "ship" being in a wheelchair. Beyond that, very few shows are willing to keep characters in wheelchairs for very long.

Supernatural had Bobby in a wheelchair for most of S5 but since Bobby was a recurring character that ended up being only 7 out of the 9 episodes he appeared in.

Dark Angel, which only lasted 2 seasons, kept coming up with ways to get Logan out of the wheelchair (Max's healing blood and later the leg braces).

Edited December 25, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[dtissagirl]

My guess is sometime during 410-413 Felicity will *think* she's gonna be in a wheelchair forever, but then she won't. Probably still during February sweeps, because this is the CW.

[Chaser]

And then she is healed and then celebration (possible wedding) and then surprise kid and then break up,

[Morrigan2575]

My guess is sometime during 410-413 Felicity will *think* she's gonna be in a wheelchair forever, but then she won't. Probably still during February sweeps, because this is the CW.

Oh yeah, can't forget the power of February sweeps

[AyChihuahua]

There's also the fact that this is The CW, the pretty people network. I can't see a Network Executive being OK with their defacto leading lady and 1/2 of the main Arrow "ship" being in a wheelchair. 

That's really the most important factor. EBR is becoming too known for her figure for the CW to let it be mostly covered up.  The longest I can see it going is the big board meeting.

[looptab]

I've watched that promo again, and I have to say Diggle doesn't seem particularly heartbroken to me. He could be talking about the weather o.O
But maybe that's just me :)

Edited December 26, 2015 by looptab

[way2interested]

So, looking at the promo again, is all of that footage from 410 alone? If 411 is probably going to be a Diggle-centric episode, then I couldn't picture them squeezing Anarky in there, although they could, I suppose, to give the other characters something to do. 

 

It just seems strange to me considering Flash had footage for all the way to 213, while Arrow is just focused on 410. I get that they really want to focus on the immediacy from where 409 ended and really milk the grave thing, but I would have thought that they would have shown more.

[chaos is welcome]

Can they realistically show footage from after 410 without giving up on the whole felicity dies charade though?

Plus anarchy could pay in to the blood debts title, seeking revenge on thea for burning him. Not too mention adding to Oliver's dilemma of "stay with felicity or fight ghosts" by adding in a threat to thea.

Edited December 26, 2015 by chaos is welcome

[bijoux]

I assumed Anarky is in a later episode. I don't see him fitting in 4x10.

[Morrigan2575]

I think it's 410-411 but mostly 410.

[way2interested]

I assumed Anarky is in a later episode. I don't see him fitting in 4x10.

That's what I'm ultimately thinking, but it's just weird because so much of the promo felt like it was from the same episode, so him coming from another episode does actually make sense but it's just strange that they would jut randomly stick him in the promo.

 

Although he does kind of fit the "revenge" theme the promo was selling.

[chaos is welcome]

We don't have any spoilers for anarchy's timing, right?

[way2interested]

Nope, didn't even know for sure if he was even coming back myself. The shot of him does look like he's in someone's house though, so I'm wondering when and where exactly he shows up.

[chaos is welcome]

In a random conversation with a fan boy who lives the comics, Arrow and felicity, I asked fan boy who gee thought was in the grave. He said he knew for sure it wasn't laurel. This gives me hope it will be laurel because it would be ! Shocking!, at least to the fanboys who are still ga/bc for evah. I tried really hard to laugh at his justification for why it couldn't be laurel (because bc marries ga)

[Chaser]

Earlier there was a conversation about whether or not Felicity would leave TA around 4x14. I forgot this, but I find it hard to believe she gets a codename in 4x11 only to leave the Team a couple a episodes later.

 

Unless they do want to play homage to BOP and have the Teams split for a bit (for whatever reason not related to Oliver's lie). Oliver/Diggle on one Team and Felicity/Thea/Laurel on another.

Edited December 28, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[AyChihuahua]

I don't think she'll quit, but if it were RL she'd definitely take a couple weeks away to grieve the relationship before being in the lair with him again. If 4.15 is the flashback episode they could just mention she went to Vegas to visit her mom, and boom, she's taken some time off.

[way2interested]

I honestly don't think that they would have the team separate, just because that was one of the things that even they realized that didn't work and that they messed up on.

 

I feel like she only gets the codename in 411 for the sake of having her go against her father in 412 without either of them knowing who each other are (for the *surprise twist* at the end of 412 for 413's "Sins of the Father"). It would be nice if they acknowledged the real danger Felicity is in now and that they should be calling her something else over comms (which, who knows? that might be the in-show reason), but in actuality, I'm thinking this is the real reason, just how like the reason for Diggle giving a codename was just so they could have Curtis on the team without letting him in on all of the secrets, not because they reasoned that Diggle needed protection (although, namewise, I would argue that at least being called "John" has better protection than a name like "Felicity")   

[Morrigan2575]

Props to the Anarky actor for waiting until after the Anarky in 4B was revealed in promos before posting pictures of him getting fitted for a mask.

Granted it's old news at this point but, it's cool that he kept a lid on something he was probably super excited to spill.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[looptab]

A lot more restrained than the regulars :)

BTW, while I do not want the team to split long term, I wouldn't mind some mixing up. Either boys/girls, or OTA/Laurel and Thea, or whatever other iteration as long as they find some way to not have 23 people show up to take up some bad guy. They did it for 8 episodes and it's old already. Besides ridiculous.

[GirlvsTV]

I feel like 4x01 pretty firmly established that Felicity is a just as, or even more so, commited to helping people/being a hero as Oliver. Even if they do break-up, I wouldn't be surprised if she continued on with the team without needing away time from Oliver. Tbh, of the two of them at this point, I'd expect Oliver might need the down time more than Felicity.

ETA: I really don't want an extended estrangement or mixing up of the Team at all. They've tried that numerous times and it's never worked for me. The show works best when it's focused on OTA and when they are not working together, for whatever reasons, stupid stuff starts to happen and I'm worried we'll end up with another s3b.

Edited December 28, 2015 by GirlvsTV

[Morrigan2575]

Apparently the Billy Joel Song title for 410 is Angry Young Man.

Title Only = Oliver/Green Arrow

Title/Lyrics = Anarky

[looptab]

I meant mixing it up as in, a part of the team deals with something while the other deals with something else, whether it's villains or personal stuff. Like in 403, for example. :) I agree that an estrangement of whatever kind, like last year after Oliver's return or at the beginning of this season with Diggle wouldn't be handled well.

[DrSpaceman10]

BTW, while I do not want the team to split long term, I wouldn't mind some mixing up. Either boys/girls, or OTA/Laurel and Thea, or whatever other iteration as long as they find some way to not have 23 people show up to take up some bad guy. They did it for 8 episodes and it's old already. Besides ridiculous.

 

Exactly. All of the costumed characters walking into a fight in a row every episode is both repetitive and ridiculous.  

 

 

This doesn't look badass, it looks like a bunch of cosplayers walking into Comic-Con. 

[tangerine95]

I agree.Somehow all those masks make having a mask seem less badass.Right now there are more regulars with masks then without it and that's just so dumb.Way to make your lead character less special and unique by adding a bunch of people who do the same thing as he does and got there in less then half the time it took him.

[Proteus]

Exactly. I liked the show better when it was just the Arrow going into battle. It sucks now that Oliver's needs three other masks tagging along with him all the time.

[Primal Slayer]

Green Arrow has a family of superheroes so that was always going to end up getting translated, they just need to up the stakes. But in the end all they've really done is add 1 extra body. Diggle was fielding it with Arrow for a while and he already had a masked-sidekick in Roy.

[tangerine95]

Yeah but it was never like this.Oliver was never sidelined to fit other masks like he is now.Its pretty clear he's not getting the focus he should in fights scenes,he's not being given solo action scenes and his skills are being dumbed down.It wasn't a problem in season 1 or 2 or even most of season 3 though thats when it started.At least if the fights were more impressive done by other masks so they focus on them i would get it.But it just looks like a mess compared to season 1 and 2.

[Primal Slayer]

I agree but I am not surprised since the team that brought us S1/2 is now split in half and Arrow isn't their sole focus which shows.

[chaos is welcome]

The number of times Oliver has been thrown into a shelf this year...ugh. I can't get over how much skill he seems to have lost, and how much less crisp/believable the stunts are. I would love to see a return to that aspect of s1 deliciousness.

[Lady Calypso]

I think, for me, it's more like we don't need every single member of the team out there fighting in every single fight scene ever. Have them do it in rotations, at the very least. Have them do different jobs; Diggle was the getaway driver for a while, but I want him out in the field while someone else drives the van. Have someone on lookout to make sure no bad guys sneak up on the fighters. But for Thea/Diggle/Laurel/Oliver to be out there fighting, doing the exact same job, it just looks ridiculous and it sidelines Oliver just to make the others look good. That's all that needs to happen. The number of members isn't the exact problem (because if we had to keep the same number of members and add in Roy again, I'd be all for it because I love Roy), but it's utilizing them and not making the main character look like an absolute idiot. Have Oliver be lookout, or give him a fight night off. Have someone learn the command centre so Felicity can take some time off. Just stop having four fighters out there when we've seen Oliver do the fighting entirely on his own.

[Primal Slayer]

Just as Felicity has picked up some basic moves from Diggle, the team should pick up some basic moves on the computer from her. And 100% agree on the breaking up of the team. With as many Ghosts as Darhk has, I doubt they are all in the same place, they should be in multiple places around the city doing various things. Even if they don't do that, criminal activity in general should still exist in Star City to a certain extent and 1 or 2 of the team members can be tackling that front. The writers have become lazy and uncreative as the show has gone on.

[dtissagirl]

As someone who couldn't care less about the fighting scenes -- what happened this season is that they're now an actual hindrance in my viewing. Before, when Oliver was super efficient, I just waited for them to be over so I could go back to actual dialogue that I care about. But at least Oliver was getting the job done. Now, all I see are the problems -- Oliver having the yips, Diggle having a gun, but not killing everyone in 3 seconds and ending the fight, and the fact that KC and Atlin are completely different body types, plus BC not having neither mask nor wig, so all I see is Atlin, which takes me out of the diegesis.

 

I wish they'd go back to doing way more practical stunts -- which can be filmed from a greater distance, thus masking the stunt folk better -- rather than four people in close combat martial arts scenes, which is when the problems become visible to me. Jumping off buildings >>>>> throwing punches.

[EmilyBettFan]

The thing though is they want them all fighting at the same time because of time constraints. Plus they think it's bonding when the masks fight or something. Lol

But it's funny because Diggle just wanted it to be him and Oliver in that one scene to fight the ghosts in episode 3X07 right? Just shows how ridiculous it is to have them all fighting together because even Diggle doesn't want that story wise.

What's funny is that narrative wise, anyone can become a vigilante. Not everyone can be Felicity Smoak.

They are basically saying "who cares if Oliver had 8 years of training/brutality/ptsd. Look at all our masks.

Edited December 29, 2015 by EmilyBettFan

[Primal Slayer]

Everyone has different speeds at which they learn. Oliver being able to take on a slew of people who have 20+ years and make them look like jokes can be a joke within itself.

[EmilyBettFan]

I'm talking about the team itself. I'm not talking about say Oliver vs. a league member. I'm talking about how they try to tell us and show us how much better everyone else is or how loyal everyone else is story wise than Oliver.

[AyChihuahua]

I think it comes from people trying to figure out just why Samantha/William and THE secret were setup in the episode before Felicity gets injured. 408 + Felicity getting shot in the stomach area = Felicity losing baby and/or ability to have kids to ratchet up the DRAMA.Plus it could be used to give Oliver an excuse (gag) for why he keeps the secret/lie going for several episodes (how can I tell Felicity about William when she just lost the ability to ever have kids of her own!?)

If they do that to give him an excuse I am not watching again at all, and I'm already not watching again until she dumps him.

 

I think the timing is meaningless. They set up that the kid's in CC, and the crossover was the first time they were in CC this season. Once they decided to do BM crap this season, the crossover is the obvious place to put it. Also, nowadays totally losing the ability to have kids, if you have money, is not that common. She has two ovaries, after all. I'd find it highly unlikely the shot happened to take out both ovaries, which are on opposite sides of her body, and her uterus. If she has one ovary they could use a surrogate and have a biological child.

 

Re where she was shot, to make it look serious they're pretty much stuck with abdomen, head, or chest. Head ain't going to work for obvious reasons. Chest would make survival look too unlikely...look at how quickly they moved Oliver's RAG stabbing from his chest where it actually WAS, to his abdomen. Because there are fewer really super-important things in the abdomen than in the chest (or, obviously, the head). So I think it's just practicality. I really don't believe this show, which trafficks in melodrama but more comic book-y melodrama, will go there.

[Happy Harpy]

As someone who couldn't care less about the fighting scenes -- what happened this season is that they're now an actual hindrance in my viewing.

Fight scenes are like love/sex scenes for me. If there are too many of them without a point -even when they are a given and therefore automatically justified because of the genre, I lose interest. For example and among many, I loved scenes like Oliver saving himself and Tommy from Moira's goons in S1, or the boardroom attack and Oliver/Sara vs the Mayor in S2, or Arrow Girls vs Boomerang in S3. Because it said something about the characters and the general narrative, too. Those moments imo counted beyond the fight itself. In S4, I have the feeling that visual is privileged over substance. The characters have imo less and less place in action scenes, they are more often just interchangeable masks, so I find the scenes gratuitous and I'm disengaging.

 

I wasn't engrossed by all the fights in previous seasons, of course. Some others, like Oliver vs China White in S1 or Oliver vs Ra's in the S3 finale, did fall quite flat for me; notably because the characters opposing Oliver did, too. So it certainly doesn't help that BC/Laurel falls flat for me, considering her presence there in S4. I feel that a certain number of group fights serve mostly to give the character something to do -and, I agree, at the sake of other characters and especially Oliver.

So I would like more fractioning of the team in action scenes, I'm sure that technically it would be an improvement -bigger isn't always better imo. But if it's to get Oliver/Thea/Laurel (since IIRC, M.Guggenheim said there were more action scenes with them to come) instead of Oliver/Diggle, Oliver/Diggle/Thea or Diggle/Thea, I'm not sure that it will solve my current lack of enjoyment of the fights on Arrow.

[wonderwall]

lol but if they do fraction the team in fights... Laurel won't even be in half of the upcoming episodes considering she has zero upcoming storylines and she literally has zero impact and importance on the show other than the fact that she's just an extra body in the team. 

 

At least Thea has connections with Malcolm/Oliver to keep her relevant. Diggle/Felicity have always remained relevant as Oliver's family as well as a part of the original team that's always had Oliver's backs and the people who know him the best. 

 

Take Laurel out of the fight scenes, and she's just nothing and no one to any of the major/minor plot lines this season. 

 

Sorry, I've just been rewatching this show and I'm just renewing my bitterness about this character. It frustrates me how much she drags the show.

Edited December 30, 2015 by wonderwall

[tangerine95]

I do think not spliting up the team and having group fights all the time is at least in part to give Laurel something to do.But they know if they give too many BC/GA solo missions or even push someone out of the action scenes for Laurel's benefit like in season 3 then they'll get backlash like they did last season with Diggle being clearly sidelined for her.So we get all of them out there all the time.But she's the only one that has nothing else but being a mask that is in fights scenes right now.I mean it could be just my dislike of the character talking but action scenes and team arrow dynamic was never the problem until she joined.Thea imo is the same function as Roy,a younger sidekick and she's not the one being given scenes with Diggle and Felicity that seem forced.

[hogwash]

They need to figure something out cause the fight scenes look objectively worse. The only one I've liked so far was Thea vs Oliver. It was amazing and barely counts. I also liked what they tried to do with Anarchy vs Thea but the actual fight was eh compared to Thea lighting him on fire (yikes).

 

The weapons switch during the Mayor fight scene. Oliver rescuing Walter. The Dark Archer constantly kicking Oliver's ass. Slade vs Oliver in the s02 finale. Nothing this season compares. The fight in the tunnels from the S02 finale where the costumes walk up in unison and Roy learned to use a bow in a dream is probably what they're going for but it hasn't worked yet. 

[BkWurm1]

Pretty much every fight with the ghosts is throwaway.  Nameless and all indistinguishable attacking for some nebulous reasons we don't even understand.  They are like the disposable league of assassin members that are in endless supply and just don't matter.  This season half they time they open the show with some battle whose only purpose is to show them fighting.  It just doesn't mean anything.

 

I liked Oliver chasing down Anahrky in the daylight.  I liked seeing him react to his surroundings. Maybe I just like chases, lol.

 

 I also liked Oliver getting "captured" by Blood and that fight and I even liked Ray's rescue because there was a clear plan unfolding.  Just beating the bad dudes isn't enough of a story.  What does stopping them earn?  What are the emotional stakes?  Why should I care about this fight out of a hundred similar fights?

[Happy Harpy]

They need to figure something out cause the fight scenes look objectively worse. The only one I've liked so far was Thea vs Oliver. It was amazing and barely counts. I also liked what they tried to do with Anarchy vs Thea but the actual fight was eh compared to Thea lighting him on fire (yikes).

Anarky is easily my least favorite new character this year (BM isn't new and Poppy isn't a character imo) but for me Thea is the MVP of the fight scenes this season so far, even against him. 

I did enjoy the fight scenes of the OTA episode, but in all honesty, it was more thanks to the characters and Diggle/Oliver finally interacting normally/together on the field again than to the action in itself.

I feel a bit bad because I know that such scenes ask for a tremendous work and lots of dedication from the cast and crew, but I can't lie and pretend that I find them as organic or enjoyable as they once were. For me, though, the main issue is with the writing.

Just beating the bad dudes isn't enough of a story.  What does stopping them earn?  What are the emotional stakes?  Why should I care about this fight out of a hundred similar fights?

Exactly. On a side note, I have the same problem with the flashbacks. I don't see the stakes, and most of the characters are completely generic imo.

I'm curious of my own reaction to Oliver beating down bad guys in response to Felicity being hurt. I don't expect those scenes to be epic or part of my favorite ever; but I wonder if the emotional resonance will be enough to engage me, even though he's opposing mooks only. Maybe I'll just be overjoyed if Oliver is allowed to be badass, in spite of "badass" being seemingly quite synonymous to "unhinged" nowadays on the show (see also: Queen, Thea).

[dtissagirl]

I'm curious about the emotional resonance of Oliver's upcoming hulksmash too. In theory, that should be the bread and butter of every fight on this show -- I might find the actual choreography a bore, but give me the emotional hook to get through it, and I'll be fine.

Otherwise, it's the Thea vs, Andy fight. All show, zero substance. Why was THEA, and not Diggle, fighting Andy? Which is why I was watching the camera and wondering what kind of steadycam they use, instead of being emotionally connected to the characters.

[wonderwall]

Nothing will piss me off more than if we come back in episode 10 and a lot of the fight scenes are focused on LL/TQ in the field. Because that would make least sense to me and resonate the least considering they're the ones who don't even know Felicity.

 

I want to see Oliver's rage and obsession to take down Darhk for what he did to Felicity, I want to see Diggle's worry and anger. Because in the end, to Felicity, THEY are her family. This mission they're going to go on means more to Oliver/Diggle than it does LL/TQ. Sad to say it, but it's true. So yeah, I honestly want TQ/LL in the background in episode 10 while Digg/Oliver are the center stage both on the field and off (with Donna). 

[hogwash]

I'm so afraid it's gonna be as weird as when Oliver literally died and no one cared. All the times Diggle/Felicity saved Oliver's life and brought him back from the brink and.... they completely wasted it.

 

Diggle's line in the trailer makes me optimistic. I was afraid he would get lost in the shuffle. I want Felicity, Diggle, Oliver, and Donna to be front and center too. 

[AyChihuahua]

I was thinking about Oliver's line at the grave flash-forward about killing "him." I figured it was Darhk, bc that's obvious, and Guggie's favorite thing is the obvious. But if he tries to kill Darhk for hurting Felicity, which I would think he'd do (I've never thought it made any sense for him to let Slade live after murdering Moira and trying to murder Felicity...some dudes just need killing), then having him reiterate, at one of the most important scenes maybe ever in the show, that he's going to kill DD, is entirely meaningless. Because dude, you have been trying to kill Darhk for months now.

 

So maybe it really isn't Darhk? Now admittedly I kept thinking that last season MM was the real villain rather than RAG, and that turned out not to be correct. (Although it should have been, bc RAG was SUCH a fail.) So maybe it's MM? That seems the most obvious second choice. Maybe MM and DD team up and MM is the one who actually kills Quentin or whoever's in the grave? MM has no scruples, so he'd totally join up with DD if it suited his purposes. Then MM could be the bad guy again and Oliver could finally get over whatever weird daddy issues he has going on and just work to freaking kill MM already.

[chaos is welcome]

I am all kinds of worried that it is malcolm....worried because if the he is malcolm, I am pretty sure thea is in the grave, and it's finger pointing for the path that brought her in to this life. Maybe it would be laurel and Kane and it's another convoluted sara-like death plot.

Little hints about that....the whole blood lust can't be best unless you kill the person that wronged you (ship kinda sailed on blood lust sara killing thea).

From a good story telling point of view, Malcolm makes sense as the big bad for s 5. Because full circle on a 5 year flashback plan and all that.

Aside, I can't talk about the bloodlust story line without being really annoyed at how little sara/threes interaction we got. The lack of discussion about anything relevant involving sara after.get res is grrrr. Between this and fights discussion, I owe the bitterness thread a visit.

Random horrible wish, laz pit Tommy and HE can kill laurel for being so stupid that she went to cnri after EVERYONE told her not to. I really liked laurel until that moment. Anyway, then Oliver can want to kill malcom for lping tommt, which resulted in laurels death. Tommy lives, laurel is gone, yay.