Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Starfish35]

From the tvline article:

Laurel wouldn't have the Cry at all without high-tech help, so... wut?

Yeah I caught that too.

[Chaser]

Maybe they realized that the flashbacks really really suck and they decided to go less heavy on the flashback episode.

[lemotomato]

I'm not really excited about more powers on the show, and I hope Vixen is a one episode thing, not recurring. Way too many dangling storylines as it is.

Edited December 18, 2015 by lemotomato

[wonderwall]

I mean....... We already have magic on the show, I can see Vixen helping TA trying to beat Damien Darhk. I'm actually really excited! I really enjoyed the Vixen series

[apinknightmare]

Maybe she'll be able to help them figure out where DD's magic comes from, since she has her necklace. 

[lemotomato]

I guess it makes sense to bring her on in a season that deals with "magic and mysticism", but all I see is another mask and yet another character that will have dazzling stunts while Oliver gets his butt kicked in the field.

[kismet]

Oh my God. That's sort of brilliant. Although I'm placing my bets on Donna. And if it is a genuine good person who finds out, I assume they would be understanding of Oliver, not encouraging him to go on lying. More, I get where you're coming from, rather than going, Rah, rah, go on wih the lying. Following up on that, not presenting whatever Felicity's feelings end up being ass wrong to her or anyone else, just giving another perspective on Oliver's actions.

 

While on the subject, I'm betting he gets made the first time he tries to visit William after the crossover. There have been no reports of him and the mother shooting if I'm not mistaken.

I tend to agree with you. I have always thought that Donna makes the most amount of sense to support OQ & some of BM's choices even before they revealed someone would. She has the most hands-on perspective from all of the characters having been a single mother, dealing with an absentee father who perhaps would have been a bad* influence, and she loves her daughter more than anything so she can understand going to extreme lengths out of love/protection.

 

I also like that her bringing perspective to the situation can still address the wrongness of the secret keeping & lying. MM would just be someone who gives OQ a pass to do it & that doesn't resolve the real issue. I can't see Dig or TQ taking OQ's side. LL will simply cross her arms & blankly stare her opinion. It's frankly none of QL's business to be stepping in and giving his opinion & I don't see either FS or OQ asking for it. And Lyla is too outside of the shooting loop for them to bring her in just for that conversation.

 

I don't think OQ is going to get made trying to visit BM/William. I wager we won't even see them again until the issue is resolved between O/F. I think its going to be a Villain reveal to FS. Or FS is going to stumble upon the information herself and OQ is going to have no poker face about it. He doesn't want to lie to FS and he generally is not good at it. Secret keeping, yes - Lying, NO. So if she finds the information and confronts him directly about it there is no way he is going to be able to cuddle his way out of that conversation.

 

*Edited - because bed & bad are not the same thing, although one can lead to the other ;)

Edited December 18, 2015 by kismet

[kismet]

I think Nyssa coming back for a few episodes makes her a candidate for the grave if the "him" is Malcolm. She has been a prominent character in the past. She has helped the Team take down 2 big bads so they would feel sad. It ties up the threads of her "marriage" to Oliver and her relationship w Sarah. Frees them up for other relationships.

Malcolm is supposed to go dark late 4B so this could begin the set up of him as big bad again for S5.

I may be wrong but I think I read Nyssa is killed by LOA in comics. Dark Archer is Green Arrow's nemesis in comics. Remember the original premise was that this show would go 5 seasons.. Their original storyline may still be on track with some modifications such as who the love interest is, not Connor Hawke, etc.

 

Why random grave in Starling?  It could happen in Starling and/or simply that Laurel would want to bury her friend.   Wasn't there just one flower spray?

Why would Oliver shed a tear?  Mr. emotional gets attached to people quickly.  Another loss?

Barry?  I think Barry's primary purpose in the scene is to provide support for Oliver (not to mention giving him someone to voice his thoughts to.).

 

If it's a regular I still think it's Quentin but as I read other opinions and the potential story from deaths it all sounds like repeats.  I know they like to recycle but I also thought they might like to tie up some loose ends as well as giving fans something to talk about most of the season.  What about Nyssa & Sara?  Will she be joining her on LOT?  Is Oliver's marriage to Nyssa real?

I had a similar thoughts & posted something similar but less detailed about Nyssa in the Relationship thread. It does tie up so many loose strings r/t her marriage & MM rightful place as Heir. But it was too much to fit under the spoiler tags and was too tired to come to spoilers to post about it, especially considering there is little concrete spoilers about what KL is going to be doing. Part of me is still hoping she is going to LoT, esp after

MN's Ras is going to be making an appearance on that show.

, but the article said ARROW and TPTB said she would be back. I hate to say it but if Nyssa is coming back to be on ARROW & not LoT for me she is almost certainly being brought back just for her death. And as much as I prefer to not have Nyssa as a regular on ARROW - I do prefer her alive to make kickass guest appearances.

 

I could see OQ shedding a tear for Nyssa, it would make sense in that they were friends. Or perhaps he shed a tear for SL or his other friends that loved her. I shed a tear at my friend's ex-husband's wake (whom she was reconciling with) and I never knew the guy because the tear was for a life loss of potential & for my friend who was suffering.

 

As for the burial in SC, I think OQ believes in properly burying the dead. And if MM does become bad again, burying her in NP is probably not an option. So SC is probably the next best thing. It would also make sense then that would only be two flower sprays. One from TA & one likely in honor of LoA.

 

Barry being there makes less sense. But if they choose to go with Nyssa, I don't think she was the first choice. I think it was going to be a Lance, and for whatever reasons they were forced to change their story. Which is why when they filmed it they put BA there, not thinking that he really has even less connection to Nyssa. Although that being said, I have shown up to funerals to support my friends & not the deceased. So BA showing up late to chat with OQ is not that odd or OOC. Especially considering they didn't really talk about the person who died. It was like a mini-strategy meeting for how to stop what was happening.

 

I still think the Him could be DD killing Nyssa. But I do think it could also be MM and perhaps that is one of the final scenes of s4 that sets-up s5. Although I can't imagine they want to pit OQ against MM so early in the series when they still have people contracted for s6 and keep on talking about this show going on for many seasons.

Edited December 18, 2015 by kismet

[way2interested]

Something that I've noticed so far in speculation is the fact that there doesn't seem to be many villains-of-the-week coming up anytime soon. The last real one we had, besides the crossover, was in 404, and there doesn't seem to be anymore coming up unless you count The Calculator in 412 (who, like Brick has multiple episodes, and I predict that he's not just going to go away forever by the end of 413). Are there going to be any other villains for 410 or 411? If not, what would the driving plots of either of those episodes going to be? I get that a reaction/recovery story is enough plot for a bunch of the characters, but even 310 still had a villain to deal with.

[Primal Slayer]

I wish they would bring in some more side villains. Did DD drive out all the other bad guys? All there are, are Ghosts who just keep multiplying everytime you see them.

[kismet]

I feel like I'm okay with the Ghosts & DD being the only villains for 410. It does allow OQ to avenging. As of 411, I guess it depends on how long they want to do the FS recovery arc. If she doesn't wake up until 411 then a random villain of the week might just distract from her story. Or perhaps they may start to set up Calculator without needing TAmandes around to shoot scenes. They could start laying the ground work and that could be what drives the bad guy plot.

 

However, my biggest theory is with 411 being AWOL, I feel like it is going to be a Diggle centric episode with his brother. And in that case his brother will be the "bad guy". I wouldn't mind a Diggle driven plot and for that they don't need a villain of the week. Especially if Andy escapes, which at this point should be a given to get the story actually going. They can do some flashback stuff that can help starts Andy's pull to the dark side. He can be AWOL for the good side. AWOL from his jail cell. And then we could get some type of resolution or perhaps Andy just runs back to DD and we have him to marinate until the final battles.

[lemotomato]

Is that the engagement ring on the chain?

[way2interested]

I feel like I'm okay with the Ghosts & DD being the only villains for 410. It does allow OQ to avenging. As of 411, I guess it depends on how long they want to do the FS recovery arc. If she doesn't wake up until 411 then a random villain of the week might just distract from her story. Or perhaps they may start to set up Calculator without needing TAmandes around to shoot scenes. They could start laying the ground work and that could be what drives the bad guy plot.

 

However, my biggest theory is with 411 being AWOL, I feel like it is going to be a Diggle centric episode with his brother. And in that case his brother will be the "bad guy". I wouldn't mind a Diggle driven plot and for that they don't need a villain of the week. Especially if Andy escapes, which at this point should be a given to get the story actually going. They can do some flashback stuff that can help starts Andy's pull to the dark side. He can be AWOL for the good side. AWOL from his jail cell. And then we could get some type of resolution or perhaps Andy just runs back to DD and we have him to marinate until the final battles.

 

I agree with your theory about 411. They seem to have Diggle flashbacks in that one, so some Andy stuff has to be happening there, and I do think he'll probably be gone for a little bit after that (whether from the plot organically or not, since I know Eugene Byrd got pink eye after 411, so I'm wondering if that affected anything filming-wise). 410 with just the Ghosts is fine, since I'm guessing the main "antagonist" for that episode will be Oliver's dark side itself in addition to just the universe against Oliver having nice things. I'm just wondering if there will be anyone else besides them. Like Primal Slayer was saying, there seems to be a never-ending supply of Ghosts, and that, IMO, is going to get a little boring after a while. Honestly, I like the VOTW episodes for Arrow because they usually include some great character moments, so I would love a chance for one or two more. 

[kismet]

It's definitely a ring. I don't see the diamond.... of course my computers at work suck so that could be it. But even so, that diamond was pretty hard to miss. And why would she wear it on a chain. Only time I see that is when people need their hands/fingers free from jewelry or if there is fit problems with the ring.

 

I can’t see either being the case with FS. And if its during their “break time”, I imagine that ring is either on her finger (highly doubt it) or in a bowl/drawer/decorations box somewhere else. I can’t imagine if she is unwilling to wear it on her fingers (for good reason), she would want to wear it around her neck.

[kismet]

I agree with your theory about 411. They seem to have Diggle flashbacks in that one, so some Andy stuff has to be happening there, and I do think he'll probably be gone for a little bit after that (whether from the plot organically or not, since I know Eugene Byrd got pink eye after 411, so I'm wondering if that affected anything filming-wise). 410 with just the Ghosts is fine, since I'm guessing the main "antagonist" for that episode will be Oliver's dark side itself in addition to just the universe against Oliver having nice things. I'm just wondering if there will be anyone else besides them. Like Primal Slayer was saying, there seems to be a never-ending supply of Ghosts, and that, IMO, is going to get a little boring after a while. Honestly, I like the VOTW episodes for Arrow because they usually include some great character moments, so I would love a chance for one or two more. 

Should somebody clean the set? After BR's pink eyes last season - somebody needs to check that stuff out. What's going on in the make-up or food trucks?

 

I do agree that after 415 they need to bring back some good VOTW. I never had a problem with their VOTW, so many were good in s1/2. Although Anarky & Lady Cop were kinda a fizzle this year for me. The Ghosts will get boring after awhile... and there is only so much material they can make NM do before it's going to become repetitve. They need to find some way to keep 416-18 interesting. Perhaps  this is when Alex will turn out to be bad?

[Guest]

Aw, EBR looks so sunshine-y in that pic. And that's definitely not the engagement ring. That necklace/ring is gold. 

[way2interested]

Should somebody clean the set? After BR's pink eyes last season - somebody needs to check that stuff out. What's going on in the make-up or food trucks?

 

I do agree that after 415 they need to bring back some good VOTW. I never had a problem with their VOTW, so many were good in s1/2. Although Anarky & Lady Cop were kinda a fizzle this year for me. The Ghosts will get boring after awhile... and there is only so much material they can make NM do before it's going to become repetitve. They need to find some way to keep 416-18 interesting. Perhaps  this is when Alex will turn out to be bad?

Ha, I'm pretty sure I heard that he got it from filming the flashback scenes with DR. As for BR...I always thought he just had a bad cold along with a case of very bad timing considering the episode it was for. Yeah, Anarky and Lady Cop as villains weren't really that great, I still loved the scenes with Thea and Lance that we got because of them, would love to see some of those again. I totally forgot about Alex! Yep, we've got to find out something about him by then. And Oliver has to "fight another Wilson" at some point too, right? And unless DD is going to actually fight again or interact with another main character besides Oliver or Lance, I'm going to need another purpose for him other than looking menacing and giving one-liners (but do not stop the DarhkSnark, never stop it!) 

[Primal Slayer]

Anarky was suppose to have an actual ark, though who knows if they will follow that through. I thought Lady Cop would be reoccurring, it really was a waste of a character and actress.

[kismet]

I wonder if they are going to hold off on Anarky for another season like they did with Count Vertigo. Although v1 was so much better than v2 on that VOTW. I did like Anarky, I hope they don't have to recast him because they delay his arc.

There are days I miss the list because at least you knew there was someone they could take down besides common criminals. And now with the Ghosts even your basic criminals have moved out of town. Maybe Star city does need to die, just so we can get some criminals to move back into town.

I'd laugh if at the end of the season they plan on rebranded it back to Starling City, bad things happened but it certainly seemed less depressing than the current Star City.

[Primal Slayer]

I doubt they will recast Anarky, they are against recasting Ted Grant for some strange reason (probably just so they have a reason not to use him tbh)

[Chaser]

CR is in 4x10/4x13 & 4/14 so far?

 

I'm going with time jump between 4x10 and 4x11. 

 

I like VOW plots. Double Down was great. When they first announced Anarchy, I really liked the idea of them fighting contrasting villains, but Anarchy had a subpar introduction and know I'm not sure where he would fit in.

[Morrigan2575]

I thought Anarky was a multiple episode character but, I looked back at the casting announcement and they only mentioned 402. I'm sure he'll be back at some point, maybe S4 or maybe they'll do a S5 story about Anarky wanting revenge on Speedy.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Password]

Yeah I believe it was WM who said Oliver and Thea instigate his rise to real villainy so I can see him returning in season 5.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Password

[way2interested]

I thought Anarky was a multiple episode character but, I looked back at the casting announcement and they only mentioned 402. I'm sure he'll be back at some point, maybe S4 or maybe they'll do a S5 story about Anarky wanting revenge on Speedy.

 

It could have just been over-hyped by the producers, as per usual, but I honestly did think that he would come back at least once at this point. They set up for his return alright, and I thought the fact that he probably heard Felicity's name was surely going to come back to bite them by 409. 

 

As for s5, are they even throwing out ideas for that yet? I know s1-s2 were planned pretty close together, and that during s2 they were already creating ideas for s3, but have we heard anything about them planning s5 yet? The end of s3 was definitely setting up for s4, so I believe they were planning out s4 at least during the breaking for 318-320, since 321 had the first mention of DD, but I wonder what they would have for ideas at this point. The writers are notoriously known for pushing back plots for later seasons, so maybe they already considered it with Anarky?

[wonderwall]

Because I'm hopelessly bored, I wanted to make a death scorecard. So here it is: 

 

Felicity (*)

• After everything Felicity went through in the midseason finale, I really think it would be (pardon the pun) overkill to kill her off. 
• Oliver would've been MUCH more broken up about her death. If he went crazy when she got kidnapped, I don't think he'd just shed one manly tear if she died. And judging by how harrowed he looks in the promo, I doubt it's her
• Felicity creates a lot of buzz about the show and so does Olicity (a lot of the main media pages talk about them without fail every time Arrow is mentioned.

Lance(****)

• The most obvious choice right now because his death has been heavily foreshadowed
• He's in the crosshairs of Damien Darhk
• The show won't really change much without him
• BUT I doubt Oliver would kill for Lance nor do I think that he would shed a tear for Quentin

Diggle(**)

• There has been little to no indication that he's going to die
• As callous as this sounds, he's one of the very few PoC on this show
• There would be zero benefit to Diggle dying

Thea(**)

• It was foreshadowed that she's going to die
• Thea dying would give Malcolm more to do and try to hunt down and kill Oliver
• Would the show really kill Oliver's last remaining family member? 
• Her death would be very "been there done that" and would make Oliver's sacrifice last year mean nothing

Laurel(***)

• If Laurel's name wasn't Laurel Lance and she wasn't BC, I would probably put five stars next to her name
• She contributes very minimally to Oliver's journey and now is often just the extra body in the field
• Offers nothing special to the show
• There have been a lot of anvils regarding her death but people generally have ignored said anvils
• She has no storylines and I honestly don't think that they're keeping her arc a secret
• Laurel's death would be shocking, affect everyone on the show, and wouldn't change much of the narrative

Donna(***)

• Donna is going to be on this show more often this season (I believe she's also in episode 10,11,13,14 if I'm not mistaken?)
• Her death would only affect Oliver, Felicity, and Lance though so it won't create that big of an impact
• Oliver would have felt guilty about her death

BM/Kid(*)

• If BM dies, then the kid will most likely be on this show more regularly which is terrible and I doubt the writers would want that
• The show isn't above killing a kid
• Oliver would've felt more guilty about either death
• Either death would add nothing to the show

[catrox14]

 

Oliver would've been MUCH more broken up about her death. If he went crazy when she got kidnapped, I don't think he'd just shed one manly tear if she died. And judging by how harrowed he looks in the promo, I doubt it's her

 

 

 

I could almost see it being in character for Oliver's PTSD to come flying back and him just shutting down and going into a weird deadly silent killer mode.  Not because he doesn't care but because he will have lost everything and he might go back to that internal fucked up but amped to the nth degree Killer!Oliver.

[TwistedandBored]

I will totally be fine with anyone but Diggle/Felicity dying. I will be sad for a moment if it is Thea or the others but I won't stop watching the show because of them. #sorrynotsorry

[way2interested]

I could almost see it being in character for Oliver's PTSD to come flying back and him just shutting down and going into a weird deadly silent killer mode.  Not because he doesn't care but because he will have lost everything and he might go back to that internal fucked up but amped to the nth degree Killer!Oliver.

 

That's what I'm wondering is up with the circumstances of whoever dies and how. I mean Felicity injured/kidnapped = Unbridled Rage Oliver and Character death = Quiet Killer Oliver? Both reactions from Oliver make sense to me, but it would depend on how the person actually ends up dying. Even if it were Felicity, the writers would have to strategically create a death scene that differs from 409 to show the audience why Oliver would be quietly planning vengeance instead of going all rage-y like we would have seen, at that point, 2 times before.

 

The show has already given Oliver multiple and consistent reactions to death/injury/trouble of loved ones. Thea=quietly devastated, doesn't match 401; Thea kidnapped (201, 219, 409) = rage-y Oliver with determination; Diggle captured or in trouble (206, 409) = rage-y Oliver or Oliver with determination; Felicity captured (121, 207, 223, 409, and further reaction in to injury in 410) = rage-y Oliver with determination. None of these quite match up with the reaction in 401.

 

Now, Laurel in trouble (barring s1 when she got into trouble when she was still the main love interest, 203, 211, 217, 223, 306) = quiet Oliver dedicated to the mission, whether it concerned saving Laurel or not; Lance in trouble (203, 404, and a bit in 407 with Oliver asking if Lance was in trouble) = quiet, concerned Oliver. These two reactions to them in trouble match up closer to Oliver's reaction to the grave in 401.

 

The writers can always retcon Oliver's reaction towards the grave or write the death scene of Thea, Diggle, or Felicity in a way that would impact Oliver in a way that would change Oliver's already established reactions to them in danger. I know Oliver might get some character development from Felicity's near-death experience that will support his quiet, silent-killer reaction in the grave, but I'm just basing this of what we've seen in Oliver so far. 

[AyChihuahua]

I'm with Laura Hurley: it ain't Felicity.  Guggie isn't the one with the power here (and I can actually see him thinking it'd be epic and game-changing to kill Felicity), the suits are.  Not even really Berlanti, although he has a lot more power than Guggie.  There is exactly no way the CW would let them kill Felicity.  They care about ratings.  Nothing except ratings, and killing Felicity would, realistically, adversely affect ratings.  And media interest.  It's really, really not Felicity.  It's almost certainly Quentin, because again, it's always the obvious person (Tommy and Sara were destined to die post-Lauriver, and Moira was fairly obvious once Slade showed up).  

 

I am curious re why people disregard the anvils re Felicity (obvy fake), but take seriously the anvils re Laurel?  I'm guessing the anvils and foreshadowing will hit every character at some point and effectively cancel one another out.  The main clues, really, are show structure, not anvils...which narrows the contenders to Quentin, Laurel if they have the guts, or a secondary character.

[way2interested]

The main clues, really, are show structure, not anvils...which narrows the contenders to Quentin, Laurel if they have the guts, or a secondary character.

 

This. From 401, this is what I've been feeling. Lance would be dying because this is how Arrow works, not because of any desire to really take risks or shake the show up. The "shocker" that I've just been waiting for is how and what happens next. 

[chaos is welcome]

Would magical vixen on island make more sense than in present?

[way2interested]

Mari didn't become Vixen until 2015 (around 316), so she can't be Vixen on the island five years ago, unless the writers decide to change that. Although, honestly, that was immediately what I thought as well. 

[AyChihuahua]

Would magical vixen on island make more sense than in present?

A bit of an aside, but the actress playing Vixen was in one of the worst S1-S5 (when it was still good) episodes of Supernatural, and she was both gorgeous, and a terrible actress.  She may have improved (whatshername from Veronica Mars S2, who said "supposably" is getting rave reviews in Creed, and I appreciate improvement), but I'm not as thrilled as some that she's showing up, bc sure, it was an episode about an evil possessed monster truck, but really, she was quite bad.

 

Also, she got to bang Dean Winchester, and had no chemistry with him.  How that is possible I do not know.

[Chaser]

I'm anticipating plenty of anvils for everyone but there were a couple things about the ones for Laurel in 4x09 that gave them more weight in my eyes.

1) Her pep talk to Oliver was similar to his talk to the grave.

2) Quentin's "I don't know what I'd do" set up a storyline for Quentin after Laurels death.

3) Felicity and Laurel having the same line. Felicity is the Red Herring so Laurel may be the real death.

And

4) This one just occurred to me and it's kind of a joke but I'm also kind of serious. Anvils mean more when they involve Laurel because anvils are how they tell Laurels stories (fishnets, black leather jackets, meant for the mask).

[AyChihuahua]

I guess for me Laurel makes the most sense in every way (story, saving money to spend on FX/guest stars, etc.), but I doubt the producers have the guts.  They should have killed her off instead of Tommy in S1, her at the end of S2, and her in S3 instead of Sara.  But they didn't.  

[chaos is welcome]

Mari didn't become Vixen until 2015 (around 316), so she can't be Vixen on the island five years ago, unless the writers decide to change that. Although, honestly, that was immediately what I thought as well.

Hahaha, because this show is great about continuity :)

I suppose they could you're her in to something magical with dahrk.

I wonder what on earth the topic of the fb ep is going to be. Because everything Islam's is so zzzzzzz.

[tangerine95]

Yes the Laurel anvils were more subtle imo then for Felicity or even Quentin.There's more meaning imo to her talk with Oliver mirroring what he says at the grave or her saying the same line as Felicity who later in the episode almost died,than to a shot from happy Olicity kissing to the shot of the grave scene.The first on feels like it could be death set up and the second is a clear red herring.Also looking at that plus the out of show reasons like Laurel being the only one not to even get a hint of a storyline in the second half or the fact that she can still be totally taken out of the show without much impact just makes me take her seriously as a suspect for the grave.

Edited December 20, 2015 by tangerine95

[AyChihuahua]

I'm anticipating plenty of anvils for everyone but there were a couple things about the ones for Laurel in 4x09 that gave them more weight in my eyes.

1) Her pep talk to Oliver was similar to his talk to the grave.

2) Quentin's "I don't know what I'd do" set up a storyline for Quentin after Laurels death.

3) Felicity and Laurel having the same line. Felicity is the Red Herring so Laurel may be the real death.

And

4) This one just occurred to me and it's kind of a joke but I'm also kind of serious. Anvils mean more when they involve Laurel because anvils are how they tell Laurels stories (fishnets, black leather jackets, meant for the mask).

That is these [idiot] writers writing it.  All the foreshadowing/anvils will be that...meaningful, because they mean it to seem like something.  Other than one character who will actually die (as has happened every season and has never been particularly surprising), the writers are intentionally working to fool the audience.

 

William Faulkner Guggie is not.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I'm still betting on Quentin being the big death, but after just 3 months of guessing games about who's in the grave, if it's anybody other than a regular cast member at the end of the season, I would definitely feel like I've been gypped. Maybe the EPs want me to feel relieved my fave didn't get the ax (whoever it is), but after teasing a death as big as Felicity's? They have to match that, I think. They can't just do Nyssa or Donna. I sure as hell wouldn't care if it were baby mama. 

[thegirlsleuth]

For me,  both Thea and Felicity are off the table.  Both have already "died".  I don't think they would kill Oliver's last remaining relative (well, last except for his son *shudder*) and Felicity/Olicity is generating heat and money right right now.  I would think they have been signaling Laurel for the reasons people listed above, except I have reached tin-foil hat territory and am convinced that there are behind the scenes/corporate reason she's untouchable.  Unless they are planning to go full force in giving Sara the Black Canary back story and have Laurel die and Sara pick up her mantle/name, I don't think it is Laurel, although I will mail the writers an excellent chocolate pecan pie if it will somehow tip the scale in her direction.

 

Which leaves Lance and Diggle, assuming you exclude Lyla and Donna. I think we are reaching the point where Oliver is the teacher not the student, and you will see him equal or leave behind his "elders".  Diggle would be a gut-punch to both viewers and Oliver, and no one seems to be watching for this death--it could be a surprise.  Also, and I am aware of how offensive the following statement is and it would outrage me if the producers had this attitude, they may be adding diversity in the form of Mr. Terrific and Vixen to balance out the loss. Finally, there are off-camera reasons.  Hasn't David Ramsey been filming a movie?

 

That said, I do think it's Lance.  I think the Donna storyline is to add extra pathos to his death.  Although I think they could do some neat things with him as police chief and Oliver as mayor, they can give those beats to DA Laurel and get by.  And again, I think it is part of Oliver becoming the older generation and leading.  

[tarotx]

Diggle is literally Oliver's only in show friend. I know they kill off one of Oliver's Teachers each season but Diggle isn't just a teacher, he's Oliver's drinking buddy. Laurel can never be that. Curtis is Felicity's employee and her person to talk to to voice her side of frustrations out on. Oliver is the star of the show. My god he needs his only friend. Plus hello HOT. Echo is nice looking but Curtis is just not in the same yum as DR and Diggle. Shallow as that might be.....

[kismet]

I am curious re why people disregard the anvils re Felicity (obvy fake), but take seriously the anvils re Laurel?  I'm guessing the anvils and foreshadowing will hit every character at some point and effectively cancel one another out.  The main clues, really, are show structure, not anvils...which narrows the contenders to Quentin, Laurel if they have the guts, or a secondary character.

For me I take the anvils towards LL more seriously because the anvils match up with what would cause minimal damage to the show. FS dying would result in a complete restructuring of the show and the characters. There is no way a post-FS ARROW will operate in the same way it does now. So those anvils to me are just overdramatics or red herrings. The anvils for the Lances on the other hand lineup with the fact that if both or either Lances were killed there would be some adjustment to the show but certainly not to the degree of losing FS. ARROW has already killed 3 major characters that are on the same tier of the Lances and the show has not needed to do much to move forward. FS & Dig are on a higher tier (FS is on the highest tier), so if they died it would be a different show altogether. So when anvils match logical show structure & characterization, I don't disregard them for me they are clues.

[wonderwall]

I think Diggle is safe... 

 

Something unique and important the following people bring to Oliver: 

 

Diggle: Only best friend/mentor/guide

Thea: Only living family member/sister

Felicity: Only person he wants to spend the rest of his life with

Laurel: ??

Quentin: ??????

 

Something unique they bring to the show: 

 

Diggle: Only PoC on the team and a part of OTA (as the network calls it)
Thea: The major source of sassy one liners and the only apprentice
Felicity: The only hacker, major source of levity, part of OTA, often claimed to be the heart of the show
Laurel: Being the ADA
Quentin: Connection to the police, one of the very VERY few older people on the show

Edited December 20, 2015 by wonderwall

[kismet]

I'm still betting on Quentin being the big death, but after just 3 months of guessing games about who's in the grave, if it's anybody other than a regular cast member at the end of the season, I would definitely feel like I've been gypped. Maybe the EPs want me to feel relieved my fave didn't get the ax (whoever it is), but after teasing a death as big as Felicity's? They have to match that, I think. They can't just do Nyssa or Donna. I sure as hell wouldn't care if it were baby mama. 

I'm preparing myself to be gypped. Because the more I start to put the clues together and the more I try to see the bigger picture ~ it becomes less and less clear that they will have the balls to kill LL. Which as has been pointed out makes the most sense from a narrative & character perspective considering 90% of her current screentime feels like an afterthought to the writers. You can remove her from nearly every plot in s3&4 and not miss any part of the story or character development.

 

Which frankly only leaves QL as the other show regular and as much as I think they could create a good story from his death (sad as it might be), I don't think they want to kill their only connection to the Police Force. Having to introduce a new police connection would just be cumbersome. And unless its a budget or BTS thing, I can't see why they would want to get rid of PB when he puts in good work for the limited amount of screentime they give him. Tommy & Moira's death added to OQ's narrative and I can wax poetic about the QL/OQ relationship (because I actually enjoy it & think it means a lot to OQ)  and how it would add to his narrative, but its been done before with Yao Fei, Slade, RQ and even Maseo. OQ continues to lose these mentor like figures. Maybe they'll do it again. QL certainly fits the profile of who the show would kill. And between his heart & DD, he's making himself an easy target.

 

But I really am beginning to think its going to be Nyssa. How many times have these EPs or TPTB promised us this epic, game-changing, life-altering plot development or twist??? Now ask how many times have they delivered on it??? The show has had some shocking moments, but very few to none of those have been promised ahead of time. The whole Al-Sha-Him Arc is a perfect example of the EPs overpromising this dark story and we all remember how is turned out. They weren't even brave enough to have him be brainwashed or truly give into the dark side. All the dark stuff he did was run-of-the-mill OQ on a mission stuff when you break it down. The fact that they went through with the wedding was shocking but then they never bothered to really address it beyond a punchline.

 

Which leads me back to being prepared to be gypped. In the 3.5 years that I have watched or read about ARROW, I have come to believe one thing as an absolute. These writers are not to be trusted. They manipulate words and phrases with the best of them. Maybe they'll surprise me this year and actually deliver on their promises. But the more the season unfolds, the more I believe the writers will cave on their killing ambitions (if they ever had them). They may want to believe that they are Games of Thrones, but nothing in their previous storytelling since s2 have indicated that they are as ballsy as GoT. And in their defense they do not have the budget, the creative liberties or the cast that GoT has. They cannot kill off characters as easily on a CW show with the cast size & show budget of ARROW. Which makes me think they will take the easy way out and kill Nyssa. She just matches all the criteria and actually resolves more issues with her death than with her survival. I never would have put her on the top of my list as a potential. But now that she is coming back, it just makes so much sense.

[kismet]

Something unique and important the following people bring to Oliver: 

Laurel: ??

Quentin: ??????

Laurel brings nothing unique to him. She is a friend and an ex-girlfriend. He has enough of those roaming the world. And now that we have BM, LL even loses more of her uniqueness as BM can trump her by having a child. She is NOT even unique in her role as the ex.

 

Quentin has been a Father figure to him. That is a unique role, since Dig is his mentor & friend, but never a father figure. And OQ has always wanted to make QL proud and saw him as a role model. In s3, it was FS unavailability & QL's disappointment in him that made him seriously consider giving up his life and joining LoA before Ras forced his hand. QL played into that decision. And now that they are positioning him with Donna, I think that with the impending nuptials between FS & OQ next season(s), he can move into his role as Step-Father-in-Law. FTR I'll say it now- I bet the DS & QL will be married before O/F.

 

I always think they planned to have QL become the official father figure to OQ whenever O/L got back together. Since clearly that is not happening, the writers have found another way to make that happen. I feel like CR's good reception on set & in the media/fandom made it easier to want to make her a bigger part of OQ's journey via O/F. And as much as a think PB promoting the idea of SmoakinLance might have made it happen sooner. Like the promotion EBR, I think the writers/TPTB can see an opportunity and seized it. Very few things on scripted TV happen because of chance or servicing of cast & fans.

 

Now maybe the writers just wanted to get QL laid before he died, but they had ample opportunity to have him meet anybody at a bar or even have him reconnect with DL if she came back to town. They chose to have him hook-up with & begin dating Donna in particular and I don't think that was just done for fun. Not at the rate they are writing DS & OQ as close buddies. There is mischief at work with that match making that has more to do with just the whole getting laid before one dies trope. Which honestly when you look back at it has never been true on ARROW. Everyone that has died has been recently dumped or mourning a loved one. The writers seem to favor celibate deaths over recently shagged deaths.

Edited December 20, 2015 by kismet

[tarotx]

Nyssa's death is also Ironic because she distroyed the Lazarus pit. And now that Malcolm is Ra's Thea is the one destined to kill her father imo. I think Nyssa may die but not be the death. I'm back to Laural and how Death wants a Lance daughter. He's been after Sara but she keeps coming back. With Laurel being the one bringing her back this time. A Lance daughter for a Lance daughter. That would really get Sara. The two women who saved her life. If this was Sara's story I could so see them going here :p

I'm at it being anyone but Oliver's real family-OTA,Thea and William. This season isn't a personal villain (someone bad because of Oliver or a long time family friend) for Oliver. I don't think the death will be personal for him. His ex girlfriend and ex wife sound personal but they really are not.

I still don't think they have the balls to kill BC so it'll be Lance. And he fits the loose connection to Oliver and A Lance death.

[statsgirl]

I am curious re why people disregard the anvils re Felicity (obvy fake), but take seriously the anvils re Laurel?  I'm guessing the anvils and foreshadowing will hit every character at some point and effectively cancel one another out.  The main clues, really, are show structure, not anvils...which narrows the contenders to Quentin, Laurel if they have the guts, or a secondary character.I

The wild card is Laurel's role in the mythology so for me,none of the anvils apply.  In terms of the show's structure, she's useful as the ADA but they've used her in that role exactly once this season in Dark Waters (standing beside the DA as she dies I'm not counting) and on the Team, she's muscle and they already have Oliver, Diggle and Thea for that.  They still haven't learned to split up the Team when they're in the field so that it isn't the crash of bodies they have this season. So based purely on show structure, Laurel is a significant candidate.

 

But we can't base it entirely on show structure because Laurel has something unique that the others don't, and that is her importance in the DC comics world when makes me seriously question whether she should be in the death pool.  Come to think of it, none of Thea, Quentin, Diggle or this version of Felicity existed in the original comcs.  Only Laurel has that.

 

It will be interesting to see the audience reaction if it is a secondary character like Alex, BM or William and whether they will see it as a cheat since the EPs promised that it will be a significant character and the death will stick.

[wonderwall]

But we can't base it entirely on show structure because Laurel has something unique that the others don't, and that is her importance in the DC comics world when makes me seriously question whether she should be in the death pool.  Come to think of it, none of Thea, Quentin, Diggle or this version of Felicity existed in the original comcs.  Only Laurel has that.

 

You're absolutely right that Laurel is the only character (apart from Oliver) that's existed in the original comics... But I still fail to see how this contributes to anything in the show in a narrative sense because Dinah from the comics =/= the Laurel we see on the show. I mean, I could understand the argument that she could bring in viewers but Laurel is a B/C grade comic character so I don't see her bringing in a lot of viewers (considering her character is very polarizing in the comic community). 

 

So basically what I'm getting is Laurel just offers her name from the comics to the show? I don't really see how that's significant tbh. 

Edited December 20, 2015 by wonderwall

[statsgirl]

Weren't Tommy and Malcolm in the comics too?

 

I was thinking of the two guys from the TVOvermind review who are glad that Oliver is finally acknowledging Laurel as his equal, one of whom wants Felicity gone so he can finally get his Oliver/Laurel romance.  There's a  whole lot of emotion and expectation around the name Dinah Laurel Lance even now or maybe especially now, not just with viewers but also with the show's EPs and that's why I don't think we can place our bets purely on the show's structure.

 

I am intrigued at the idea that the LoT episode after the presumed death is Left Behind and that argues that it's either Quentin or Laurel for Sara to be Left Behind.  Sadly, I think I'm going to be mourning Quentin this summer. Poor Donna, she finally snags a good guy and then he's gone.

[Morrigan2575]

I think you guys are totally focused on the wrong things. I don't think this comes down to "creative decison" or "because comics". I think it'll come down to money, especially going into a syndication year.

As for why the "anvils" don't count for Felicity it's because they just almost killed her in 309/310. And they are milking her "death" for Winter Hiatus talk just like Oliver in S3. I don't think this show ended the MSF on Felicity's death only to turn around and kill her for real 7-8 episodes later.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Morrigan2575