Spoiler Discussion Thread

[dtissagirl]

I hate it that when Oliver looks at Felicity babbling all weirded the fuck out is when I love him the most.

Edited December 9, 2015 by dtissagirl

[Morrigan2575]

Ok, I know the whole thing was done to set up Felicity's babble about engagement and then the souffle reveal but I absolutely hate that Curtis was likely "I work for Mr. Queen's girlfriend"...ugh!

Edited December 9, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[apinknightmare]

Hopefully that scene is better in context. And this scene makes it seem like she knew about the ring, just not when he was planning to propose?

[Guest]

I haven't watched the video on TV Line but is it as embarrassing as the write up sounds? That Felicity considers them practically engaged? Cringe.

 

 

Does anyone recall seeing an interview/article/spoiler where they said Felicity was keeping her father's identity a secret from Oliver and that when it comes out it would have a huge impact on the Olicity relationship?

 

 

I've never heard anything like that before.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Guest

[Morrigan2575]

Hopefully that scene is better in context. And this scene makes it seem like she knew about the ring, just not when he was planning to propose?

I thought she just figured the whole thing out. She knew he was acting weird that night and then she put it together with the souffle and hidden engagement ring talk.

[apinknightmare]

I haven't watched the video on TV Line but is it as embarrassing as the write up sounds? That Felicity considers them practically engaged? Cringe.

Yes. I'm hoping it was a slip that she knew about the ring beforehand or something. The scene wasn't great.

[looptab]

Weird introductions, Arrow-Style.

I'm guessing she must have found the ring, or Donna has being saying something-maybe she knew about Oliver's intention to propose?

[tv echo]

Does anyone recall seeing an interview/article/spoiler where they said Felicity was keeping her father's identity a secret from Oliver and that when it comes out it would have a huge impact on the Olicity relationship?

No - that's new to me.  

 

The closest spoiler I have to that is when WM said the story of Felicity's father is "going to be something that is more personal, emotional, speaks directly to her story, and a big bombshell that’s going to be coming out - a big reveal between her and Oliver later in the story - and the story is going to really speak to that.” (EW article, page 26 of Spoilers thread)

 

I guess that the "bombshell" and "big reveal" is the BM secret that Oliver's keeping.  And, as others have speculated, there'll be some sort of parallel with Felicity's dad.

Edited December 9, 2015 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

I thought she just figured the whole thing out. She knew he was acting weird that night and then she put it together with the souffle and hidden engagement ring talk.

Yeah, it was at the beginning of the conversation when she mentioned being practically engaged that I thought she might have known he had the ring and just put together that he was going to ask her that night when they were talking about soufflés.

Edited December 9, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Guest]

It feels like we're missing something then because there has never been any hint that Felicity knows Oliver was going to propose. I hope they fill that in because I'm embarrassed by the idea that she just assumes them to be practically engaged. Uh, no. Let's not do that please.

[apinknightmare]

Since she was looking for her mother, I'm guessing that Donna might have let something slip beforehand.

Edited December 9, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Morrigan2575]

No - that's new to me.

The closest spoiler I have to that is when WM said the story of Felicity's father is "going to be something that is more personal, emotional, speaks directly to her story, and a big bombshell that’s going to be coming out - a big reveal between her and Oliver later in the story - and the story is going to really speak to that.” (EW article, page 26 of Spoilers thread)

Ok maybe that's what they were thinking of. Knowing what happened in 408 seems this is about the reveal of Oliver/William as well as Felicity/ Dad Edited December 9, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[SmallScreenDiva]

I clicked. I'm weak. I think Felicity just figured it out when Curtis' husband mentioned straight people and proposals using dessert. I mean, Oliver WAS acting weird that night in Ivy Town so it's not surprising Felicity puts 2 and 2 together. The scene is awkwardly written, like Morrigan2575 mentioned above the whole I work for Mr. Queen's girlfriend was a bit odd, but they were doing a parallel speech pattern with Digg's I work with Mr. Queen. I didn't find the "practically engaged" part cringe-worthy, though. It makes sense for both Oliver & Felicity actually to think they're it for each other and engagements and weddings will happen eventually. That's why it wasn't odd for me that Oliver was proposing after 5 months of bliss, or for Felicity to think they are "practically engaged." Maybe I'm just determined to get past last week's UGH, but it looked to me like Oliver would have been OK with Felicity not qualifying what she meant about practiclly engaged. He looked seriously amused.

[looptab]

Imagine Laurel answering all those  phone calls with her sunny disposition. LOL

Dig, I appreciate you are a polite person, but really, we know you don't care.

[apinknightmare]

Maybe I'm just determined to get past last week's UGH, but it looked to me like Oliver would have been OK with Felicity not qualifying what she meant about practiclly engaged. He looked seriously amused.

He did look amused. I don't find anything cringe-worthy about assumptions, but I did think the dialogue in that scene was not very good. And not just for Felicity. It might just be one of those things where it makes more sense in context, because it feels like there's something missing IMO.

[dtissagirl]

Anyone good at reading lips? What is Oliver mouthing to Felicity while she's babbling?

[tarotx]

I wonder if Felicity and her mom have found the ring?

[SmallScreenDiva]

He did look amused. I don't find anything cringe-worthy about assumptions, but I did think the dialogue in that scene was not very good. And not just for Felicity. It might just be one of those things where it makes more sense in context, because it feels like there's something missing IMO.

 

Agree, the dialogue is off. And I don't think it's going to improve with context. It's just not well-written, is what it is. Which seems to be Arrow in general. I get what the writers are trying to do and convey, but damn if they don't miss the mark quite a bit. 

[way2interested]

Anyone good at reading lips? What is Oliver mouthing to Felicity while she's babbling?

 

I saw someone suggest, "Why are you explaining?" or something along the lines of that.

[looptab]

How sad would it be if Felicity thinks that  he was weird in CC  because of the proposal?

[apinknightmare]

Anyone good at reading lips? What is Oliver mouthing to Felicity while she's babbling?

He's actually whispering something, but ugh, I can't make out more than "what are you doing?" Or something like that.

[way2interested]

I wonder if Felicity and her mom have found the ring?

 

I immediately guessed that Felicity found the ring, probably earlier in the episode. That's why she was acting jumpy with the "practically engaged" comment. I feel like this clip is just her reacting to the idea that he's actually had this idea to propose to her since their stay in Ivy Town. I wonder if she might think that his secret that he was keeping in 408 was just this engagement ring and decide not to press him on it. 

[tarotx]

Oh she will. Either she and her mom talked about Oliver's weirdness or she found the ring and thinks that explains it.

How sad would it be if Felicity thinks that he was weird in CC because of the proposal?

[bijoux]

Poor guy hasn't had sex since Sara was swept out to sea the second time almost two years ago. This is Ollie we're talking about.

I actually thinks it's since Shado. I never got the impression that Sara and Oliver slept together on the island. All I remember is a kiss before she was sucked off The Amazo. I thought he was wracked with guilt over Shado's death and Slade way with them for a good chunk of time (talk about a death wish) or they were separated.

[Chaser]

Poppy is pure.

 

I'm bored.

[kismet]

Does anyone recall seeing an interview/article/spoiler where they said Felicity was keeping her father's identity a secret from Oliver and that when it comes out it would have a huge impact on the Olicity relationship?

I see your secret family member and I raise you a secret family member who is Evil .... oh the fun and games of Secret Lies - Sweeps Edition.

Edited December 9, 2015 by kismet

[wonderwall]

I guess I'm in the minority when I say that scene didn't feel off or cringeworthy? Because while watching it I saw what @smallscreendiva was talking about. 

[kismet]

I immediately guessed that Felicity found the ring, probably earlier in the episode. That's why she was acting jumpy with the "practically engaged" comment. I feel like this clip is just her reacting to the idea that he's actually had this idea to propose to her since their stay in Ivy Town. I wonder if she might think that his secret that he was keeping in 408 was just this engagement ring and decide not to press him on it. 

If I get myself inside the head of the Arrow Writer - it's probably just them laying the groundwork for FS eventual forgiveness of OQ for the whole BM debacle.

 

From their POV - If she knew that he loved her enough to propose in Sept, but it was delayed because of TA and the Mayor thing. Then BM drops this ultimatum on him forcing him to lie to her must not have been his choice, because he there is no way he would have willingly lied to her if he intended to be married to her long before BM-Secrets & Lies. So it somehow will be used to strengthen the concept that OQ deeply loves FS long before BM & William. But BM forced him to lie, using his relationship with his son as leverage, which might have hurt O/F relationship except she knows how much family means to him. So she will understand the forced secrets & lies scenario as a display of love for both.

 

I'm not saying it should absolve him of the shittiness it was to keep secrets & lies. I'm not saying it really even makes that much sense from the average person's view on relationships. For me personally, it's a little messed up from a respect for yourself & the relationship perspective. But these are the Arrow Writers and they will pretzel their reasoning into all shapes and sizes. So this little reveal that she already felt practically engaged will be used in the absolution of OQ - forced keeper of secrets & lies.

 

 

I guess I'm in the minority when I say that scene didn't feel off or cringeworthy? Because while watching it I saw what @smallscreendiva was talking about. 

I cringed at the horrible writing! Probably helped that I had forewarning that the scene had issues. The acting was not off and even by Arrow Scripts the wording was not cringeworthy as it could have been. But the way they pretzeled the concept of comparing proposals & gay v. straight was a lot cringy for me.

 

Also, I'm mildly offended that they chose to suggest using the actual reef as an integral part of the proposal. When I visited the Great Barrier Reef, we were told it was a major criminal offense to be caught tampering with the reef in anyway... I don't mean to be super critical of the Arrow Writers team because it was a sweet thought. But for me, I feel like they should have fact checked that its probably wicked illegal to leave a ring in a shell in the Great Barrier Reef. The GBF is one of the seven wonders of the world & the ecosystem is fragile, people just can be willy-nilly dropping shells full of engagement rings. Unless, it explains why Curtis can't visit Australia for a future mission... Anyway, irrational rant against the writers skipping over vital reality facts over... if they wrote better stories I wouldn't be so hypercritical over some of their actual writing choices they use to pretzel stories together.

[EmeraldArcher]

I thought Curtis's line about working for "Mr. Queen's girlfriend" was an easy way to reference his crush on Oliver. As in, "We're married, the hot guy has a girlfriend, nothing to see here, husband, nothing to see."

Edited December 9, 2015 by EmeraldArcher

[dtissagirl]

I don't like Curtis' line, but I get it, because he just met Diggle [well, without him being called 'Spartan'], and he has no idea what kind of relationship Diggle has with Felicity.

[Starfish35]

Oh that was kind of painful. :( Oliver was looking at Felicity kind of like I was feeling. Definitely a secondhand embarrassment moment.

The soufflé lightbulb moment was cute though.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Starfish35

[looptab]

If I get myself inside the head of the Arrow Writer - it's probably just them laying the groundwork for FS eventual forgiveness of OQ for the whole BM debacle.

 

From their POV - If she knew that he loved her enough to propose in Sept, but it was delayed because of TA and the Mayor thing. Then BM drops this ultimatum on him forcing him to lie to her must not have been his choice, because he there is no way he would have willingly lied to her if he intended to be married to her long before BM-Secrets & Lies. So it somehow will be used to strengthen the concept that OQ deeply loves FS long before BM & William. But BM forced him to lie, using his relationship with his son as leverage, which might have hurt O/F relationship except she knows how much family means to him. So she will understand the forced secrets & lies scenario as a display of love for both.

Except he did?

[Ann Mack]

Only problem I had with that scene is I know Curtis is with his husband but these writers are trying to tell me  this man well actually either one of them looks at John Diggle in his damn suit with those biceps bulging and nothing is muttered. Okay Curtis this is another one of those time when you remind yourself your married.

 

C'mon we are talking John Diggle all dressed up looking hella good and no response, hmmm? (I'll give Curtis and hubby a bye since they were attached to each others hip)

Edited December 9, 2015 by Ann Mack

[Chaser]

Writing was awkward. Acting was great tho.

[wonderwall]

Writing was awkward. Acting was great tho.

 

This episode was written by Wendy........ So.... I'm expecting it to be awkward at times :p

[kismet]

Except he did?

I understand your point. But in the writers' minds he did not lie, he is doing what needs to be done for the plot to work. So the writers will have FS character take the hit that the lie doesn't matter. Like I said, it's just the writers laying breadcrumbs that they will twist into bread to absolve OQ of his secret keeping. I'm not saying I agree with their choices, just pointing out what I think they are trying to achieve as writers.

 

Also, I thought of another reason why the awkward exchange about almost engaged had to be dropped in the episode. This way the first engagement can be seen as something spontaneous and inspired by FS accidental babble. OQ was going to wait to propose until after the whole BM thing was cleared up. But the life & death of DD situation and FS's babble made him want to make her confident of where she stood in her life. So once again, the writers can shuffle some of the blame onto FS's character.

 

It's not great relationship writing. But its the classic Arrow writers we have a plot point that we need to transition for drama, so let's just drop a few breadcrumbs that we can twist to our advantage later.

[dtissagirl]

 

But BM forced him to lie, using his relationship with his son as leverage, which might have hurt O/F relationship except she knows how much family means to him. So she will understand the forced secrets & lies scenario as a display of love for both.

 

I'm willing to accept that Oliver is emotionally stunted, and dumb enough to truly believe BM is forcing him to keep secrets, but if they end up making Felicity also accept that BM's ultimatum could be enforced in anyway... well, I'm gonna hulksmash capslock A LOT.

[looptab]

Really hoping that they don't do that. 

 

I understand your point. But in the writers' minds he did not lie, he is doing what needs to be done for the plot to work. So the writers will have FS character take the hit that the lie doesn't matter. 

[apinknightmare]

Really hoping that they don't do that. 

 

I think they're going to come up with a "really good reason" for him to keep lying. Like, Felicity's impending injury, or (ugh, I really hope they don't do this) her thinking she might not be able to have children after whatever happens tonight, and Oliver not wanting to burden her with that or some other type of idiocy that's going to make her look like the bad guy when it comes out and she gets upset about it. 

 

I'll be pleasantly surprised if they don't do this. The one thing that gave me hope about it was a post-mortem last week where WM talked about the secret blowing up - I'm hoping that she meant "in Oliver's stupid face," but who even knows at this point.

[kismet]

Really hoping that they don't do that. 

Totally agree with you... but with these writers I have lost a lot of faith in them not resorting to character bending to fix their crappy writing choices - especially if the season is running out of time.

[bethy]

 I'll be pleasantly surprised if they don't do this. The one thing that gave me hope about it was a post-mortem last week where WM talked about the secret blowing up - I'm hoping that she meant "in Oliver's stupid face," but who even knows at this point.

But, of course it's going to blow up in Oliver's stupid face, right? I mean that's the only reason they're having him lie in the first place, isn't it? None of the post mortems gave me any hope because they only confirmed what I knew - that they're creating drama for drama sake. And it'll be another reason - I would bet money - that they'll have Laurel call Oliver a hypocrite for lying after getting mad at her for doing the same thing.

[apinknightmare]

But, of course it's going to blow up in Oliver's stupid face, right? I mean that's the only reason they're having him lie in the first place, isn't it? 

 

They're definitely having him lie to create drama - what kind of drama they're creating, and how it'll ultimately make Oliver look, I'm not sure. They could be doing it to make trouble for him, or maybe they're doing it to stretch some stupid parallel they're trying to make...IDK. 

Edited December 9, 2015 by apinknightmare

[bethy]

True. We don't know how it'll make Oliver look. But given these writers' track record, I assume it'll show him in the worst possible light. I guess I'm just tired of Oliver having to be the only one who has to deal with consequences for his dumb decisions.

[statsgirl]

I agree, it looked like Felicity only clicked in when Curtis' husband talked about how straight people hide rings.  I assumed the "I have to call my mother" was fake and it was Oliver she was going to talk to.

 

 

From their POV - If she knew that he loved her enough to propose in Sept, but it was delayed because of TA and the Mayor thing. Then BM drops this ultimatum on him forcing him to lie to her must not have been his choice, because he there is no way he would have willingly lied to her if he intended to be married to her long before BM-Secrets & Lies. So it somehow will be used to strengthen the concept that OQ deeply loves FS long before BM & William. But BM forced him to lie, using his relationship with his son as leverage, which might have hurt O/F relationship except she knows how much family means to him. So she will understand the forced secrets & lies scenario as a display of love for both.

Yeah, that makes sense.

 

Was it one of these EPs or from another show who said that they write themselves into a hole and then try to find a way out of it?

[dtissagirl]

True. We don't know how it'll make Oliver look. But given these writers' track record, I assume it'll show him in the worst possible light. I guess I'm just tired of Oliver having to be the only one who has to deal with consequences for his dumb decisions.

 

This is why this show is so frustrating. I really wish they'd move on from the Oliver making super dumb emotional decisions thing, but I don't think that's gonna happen, since MG has admitted that it provides them with a lot of story.

 

But if they keep writing their protagonist as an emotional fool, then I also need his dumbassery to have consequences, for the story to make sense to me. I'm tired of this already, but I'd rather this blows up in Oliver's face, than the wacky consequences-free writing they give Teflon Canary when she makes dumb choices.  So for me, if it turns out the narrative makes Oliver totally justified in hiding the kid, it'll mean that they're writing him like they write Laurel. And that might seriously be the point when I break-up with Arrow for good.

Edited December 9, 2015 by dtissagirl

[apinknightmare]

Although I don't like Oliver continuing to be a moron and making terrible life choices, I do think they made a good case for it blowing up in Oliver's face by showing us that Felicity was angry at the lie, not at the existence of the child. So, I don't think they're going to have him in the "right" necessarily, but I'm not sure they aren't still going to try to make his reasoning sympathetic (apart from the idiocy of BM wanting it a secret), like him wanting to tell Felicity in this ep before she gets hurt and then continuing to not tell her after because he doesn't want to "burden" her. Who knows. 

[dtissagirl]

Yeah, what I got from the episode is that Oliver is wrongity wrongy wrong to be keeping the kid a secret. I truly get no ambiguity there -- I think the writing was telling me that while Oliver truly feels like he needs to lie, that that was a stupid/wrong choice. And the ultimate consequence will be that Felicity will stop trusting him/dump him/evict him from the Arrow bunker and then he'll be walking in the rain to the sound of All By Myself.

 

But because this show is terribad, I also think that they'll write the secret keeping towards "it's complicated" from now on. Most likely by putting Felicity through several wringers, that'll make it sympathetic to the audience that Oliver's not telling her he's a father.

 

/tiiiired

Edited December 9, 2015 by dtissagirl

[bijoux]

I guess I'm in the minority when I say that scene didn't feel off or cringeworthy? Because while watching it I saw what @smallscreendiva was talking about.

  

It didn't come off as cringeworthy to me either. My world isn't on fire because of it but it's fine.

I agree, it looked like Felicity only clicked in when Curtis' husband talked about how straight people hide rings.  I assumed the "I have to call my mother" was fake and it was Oliver she was going to talk to.

 

It totally clicked for her at that point but I really do think she goes off to look for Donna and her 'almost engaged' babble is the consequence of an earlier scene with Donna. Either they've found the ring or Donna comes right out with, "so, has he popped the question yet?"

[BkWurm1]

I'm willing to accept that Oliver is emotionally stunted, and dumb enough to truly believe BM is forcing him to keep secrets, but if they end up making Felicity also accept that BM's ultimatum could be enforced in anyway... well, I'm gonna hulksmash capslock A LOT.

She doesn't have to believe BS's ultimatum could be enforced, just that Oliver thought he had to honor her ultimatum for some reason.  It could be spun that he was trying to act honorably by being honest but of course that part blows up when he then lies to Felicity.  Maybe his plan really is to ask for forgiveness and hope that Felicity comes through for him.

 

I'm probably giving Oliver too much credit.  It seems more like he doesn't have a plan at all which may be what will allow his redemption in my eyes. If he had an emotional break down and admitted he doesn't know how to handle any of this and admit that no matter what he does he's afraid he's going to regret it for the rest of his life, then yeah, I could handle Felicity forgiving him - not letting off the hook, but not needing to punish him or take it as a make or break commentary about their relationship. 

 

Really, Felicity being infinitely understanding that the lying is a part of Oliver's trauma and stunted emotional growth is my only remaining hope to avoid the cleched drama of an angsty break up.  It's not really fair to put my last hopes on the person who IMO is the wronged party but she's all I've got if Oliver isn't going to come clean. 

Edited December 9, 2015 by BkWurm1

[GirlvsTV]

I'm just holding out hope tonight's episode will open with Oliver waking up and telling Felicity all about this weird dream he had where Barry time-traveled, there were reincarnated ancient Egyptian bird people, an immortal dude with a magic stick and Oliver had a secret kid. Lol, I mean, crazy right?

I'm totally turning it off when they get in the limo though. If I don't see it, it didn't happen!

Edited December 9, 2015 by GirlvsTV