Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Morrigan2575]

I think the issue with the 3 shows Stephan was talking about was that The stunt team are doing all 3 shows. So if there was a stunt yesterday the body doubles would be needed.

LOT will have a crossover though it isn't part of the "cross over evet" since the show won't have started airing yet. I think it's probably for their premiere. On October 6th Stephen tweeted: "Crashing into hour 14 of a day that features two shows, neither of which are Arrow. Today is the stuff of Legends."

.

Yes but that isn't part of the Flarrow Crossover which is only 208/408. We already know that actors from Arrow and Flash will appear on LoT. We know that DD will appear and there's little doubt that Barry and Oliver will appear in the LoT premiere since Oliver already appeared in the Flash Pilot.

However, those crossovers are totally independent from the Flarrow crossover that is being filmed now.

As for what SA was talking about it's more likely scheduling around the actors than the stuntmen.

[tarotx]

I know LOT isn't a part of the cross over event. I said so in my post. I don't get the need for the long post explaining how the crossovers work? I mentioned the LOT stuff because it did mean the actors were filming for all 3 shows. Not specifically the Cross over event. We don't know when they will cross over to affect filming. 

 

I do think yesterday was probably a stunt day which is why I mentioned the stunt team and the body doubles. They also work on all 3 shows. 

.
Yes but that isn't part of the Flarrow Crossover which is only 208/408. We already know that actors from Arrow and Flash will appear on LoT. We know that DD will appear and there's little doubt that Barry and Oliver will appear in the LoT premiere since Oliver already appeared in the Flash Pilot.

However, those crossovers are totally independent from the Flarrow crossover that is being filmed now.

As for what SA was talking about it's more likely scheduling around the actors than the stuntmen.

[wonderwall]

 

Why is LL giving Sara a disgusted once-over? YO LL YOU KNEW THIS WAS GOING TO HAPPEN AFTER YOU SAW WHAT HAPPENED TO THEA. 

 

Sit your selfish ass back down. This is your fault. 

 

Lmao I'm so done with her character. So done I'm just not even going to bother trying to sound respectful. Huh... That's never happened before. 

Edited October 18, 2015 by wonderwall

[AyChihuahua]

I'm so far just so thrilled that Oliver is not a complete and total moron, that I don't really care that Laurel, and Quentin, and to some extent Digg, are now morons.  

 

I wonder if the backlash against Laurel will affect their decision re who's in the coffin.  I don't believe they don't know who was in the coffin, but it could change.  Like, for example, go from Lance to Laurel?   It seems like even viewers who've been fine with Laurel are not fine with this storyline.

 

Also, KC cannot sell this.  This storyline requires acting out complex emotional reactions, and KC can't do it.  She really does look like she smelled a fart when she's disdainfully staring at poor Sara.

Edited October 18, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[dtissagirl]

 

Why is LL giving Sara a disgusted once-over? YO LL YOU KNEW THIS WAS GOING TO HAPPEN AFTER YOU SAW WHAT HAPPENED TO THEA.

 

That's the exact same once-over she gave Oliver when he was giving out orders in 401. KC's acting range =

[Chaser]

 

Why is LL giving Sara a disgusted once-over? YO LL YOU KNEW THIS WAS GOING TO HAPPEN AFTER YOU SAW WHAT HAPPENED TO THEA. 

 

Sit your selfish ass back down. This is your fault. 

 

Lmao I'm so done with her character. So done I'm just not even going to bother trying to sound respectful. Huh... That's never happened before. 

That's where I'm at. I used to say something really harsh about the character/actress and then feel bad and try be more respectful next time. Yeah. No. 

 

She is an insult to the narrative and as such an insult to the audience. All this is made worse by an actress who can't act. 

 

Permanent FF. I'll be watching these scenes in gif form.

[calliope1975]

 

Why is LL giving Sara a disgusted once-over? 

 

I know it's a 1/2 second shot but disgust is also what I'm getting from that look. She's probably going for concerned, but it looks like she skated right past that emotion. 

 

If anyone on this show blames Oliver for this mess, I may have to drive down the street to the WB studios and key some cars. With the way TIIC roll, though, I'm sure someone on The Flash will comment on how everything ever is Oliver's fault. 

 

Side Note - I now need that funeral to be a double burial because I cannot deal with either Quentin or Laurel after either one of them dies. The self-righteousness would break me. 

Edited October 18, 2015 by calliope1975

[Chaser]

I'm seeing an annoyed "WTF is wrong with you?"

Edited October 18, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Primal Slayer]

She looks fine to me, but I can already tell I will be cringing so much during this. 

[AyChihuahua]

I'm seeing an annoyed "WTF is wrong with you?"

"I went to all the trouble of digging you up, which didn't mess up my clothing or chip my manicure or require the removal of my 8,000 rings, or even make me develop so much as a sheen of sweat, but still, I went to all that trouble, and this is all the appreciation you give me?!?  You are so selfish, Sara!"

 

Maybe she'll keep Sara's resurrection/crazy a secret from Lance bc HEART TROUBLEZ and then Lance can punish everyone except Laurel for her secret-keeping, and we can re-do that whole awesome storyline again.

[wonderwall]

I will be using this gif a lot until the mid-season finale it seems...

 

Because if Sara is still suffering after she leaves and LL is all okay and well in Star City, I'm going to call total bullshit and it will be yet another example of her not being accountable for her actions. I expect the team not to trust LL after her doing this, I expect them not to tell her anything and not trust her with information like this, I expect LL to be thankful that Oliver knows Constantine because without him, Sara would never have been okay, I expect Quentin to question LL and yell at her about what she did...

 

But we all know none of this will happen... -_-

Edited October 18, 2015 by wonderwall

[Primal Slayer]

Thankfully we know that won't happen. 

 

Maybe she'll keep Sara's resurrection/crazy a secret from Lance bc HEART TROUBLEZ and then Lance can punish everyone except Laurel for her secret-keeping, and we can re-do that whole awesome storyline again.

[wonderwall]

"I went to all the trouble of digging you up, which didn't mess up my clothing or chip my manicure or require the removal of my 8,000 rings, or even make me develop so much as a sheen of sweat, but still, I went to all that trouble, and this is all the appreciation you give me?!?  You are so selfish, Sara!"

 

Maybe she'll keep Sara's resurrection/crazy a secret from Lance bc HEART TROUBLEZ and then Lance can punish everyone except Laurel for her secret-keeping, and we can re-do that whole awesome storyline again.

 

I think MG was the one who said LL will be straightfoward with Quentin and that she learned this lesson last season...

 

Hey... At least she learned 1 lesson about not to lie and keep things from people........ wait...............

[Primal Slayer]

She learned not to keep the secret for 2+ months. Do it and get it over with.

[Velocity23]

You mean she is only gonna reveal the secret after its a done deal and people have to clean up her mess. Yup dumbass LL as she lives and breathes.

[Chaser]

I will be using this gif a lot until the mid-season finale it seems...

 

Because if Sara is still suffering after she leaves and LL is all okay and well in Star City, I'm going to call total bullshit and it will be yet another example of her not being accountable for her actions. I expect the team not to trust LL after her doing this, I expect them not to tell her anything and not trust her with information like this, I expect LL to be thankful that Oliver knows Constantine because without him, Sara would never have been okay, I expect Quentin to question LL and yell at her about what she did...

 

But we all know none of this will happen... 

WM said Laurel will be in a much more positive place after Sara moves on and I get the impression we will see Sara struggling on LOT. More evidence of the fantastic Lance Sister relationship.

[Starfish35]

Maybe she meant she'll be in a better place.....

:) j/k

[dtissagirl]

If anyone on this show blames Oliver for this mess, I may have to drive down the street to the WB studios and key some cars.

 

I'll be your alibi, you're set.

[tarotx]

People will bitch at Oliver. It will be about bringing this mess with Rising Thea. Laurel will just be a victim because someone should have made it clear to her what messing with unnatural forces really means. Laurel was just missing her sister after all...

[AyChihuahua]

I still don't think they'll kill BC, but I wonder if maybe, just maybe, she'll just leave when/if her dad dies?  They can easily get a new police contact.

[Angel12d]

People will bitch at Oliver. It will be about bringing this mess with Rising Thea. Laurel will just be a victim because someone should have made it clear to her what messing with unnatural forces really means. Laurel was just missing her sister after all...

 

This is exactly what will happen, I can see it now. There's already comparisons made, like Oliver did what he needed to do to save Thea, which is absolutely true. Except Thea wasn't already dead and buried in the ground for a year and she was still technically alive so...

 

Ugh, I hate this storyline so much because I know it will be like one episode of mess for Laurel and then she'll come up smelling of roses. 

[lemotomato]

We already know from what SA said at Dragon Con that Oliver and Laurel are going to have some kind of reconciliation scene ("opposite of the hallway scene in 2x13") in 4x05, I think? So. Laurel's consequences last all of 2 episodes, tops.

[dtissagirl]

Do people just forget Ra's shish-kabobed Thea JUST SO he could offer the use of the Pit? In exchange for Oliver giving up his family and friends forever to serve the LoA?

[Angel12d]

I still think this whole thing would have been more interesting if the grave had already been empty and maybe Malcolm had already bought her back, even though he hates the pit. He could have done it as an act of manipulation to hold over their heads or something. "I gave you your sister back, now you have to do something for me" kind of thing. Or maybe even hold it over Nyssa who could have been giving him trouble with the whole Ra's thing. Actually, no, I like the sound of that but it wouldn't be about Laurel  so scratch that one.

 

Still, Laurel still could have had lots of storyline from the whole thing, Sara would be back and this whole mess wouldn't make me even more annoyed with her than usual. But once again these writers took the lamest and least creative way out. 

Edited October 18, 2015 by Angel12d

[AyChihuahua]

Do people just forget Ra's shish-kabobed Thea JUST SO he could offer the use of the Pit? In exchange for Oliver giving up his family and friends forever to serve the LoA?

I think people forget that RAG skewered her, period.  Because people thought that whole LOA thing was so cool, which is, frankly, a bit sick, since, among other reasons, the impetus was a young woman being horribly and violently near-murdered.  I will never be okay with Oliver saying a nice prayer over that sick fucker.

Edited October 18, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[apinknightmare]

Do people just forget Ra's shish-kabobed Thea JUST SO he could offer the use of the Pit? In exchange for Oliver giving up his family and friends forever to serve the LoA?

 

Seriously. He had some atoning to do there. Sara wasn't killed because of Laurel (in the show, anyway). 

Edited October 18, 2015 by apinknightmare

[tarotx]

[Edited by mod because talking about discussions you had with Laurel fans leads to:

Do people just forget Ra's shish-kabobed Thea JUST SO he could offer the use of the Pit? In exchange for Oliver giving up his family and friends forever to serve the LoA?

Edited October 19, 2015 by MuuMuuChainsmoker

[dtissagirl]

Seriously. He had some atoning to do there. Sara wasn't killed because of Laurel (in the show, anyway). 

 

Oh, ITA that Oliver felt responsible. But my point is -- it wasn't really Oliver who used the pit on Thea. It was Ra's. He manipulated Oliver into a corner with really only one outcome -- accepting to LP Thea in exchange for LoA servitude. And Ra's ~magnanimously~ let him dump Thea into the pit. I doubt the old fart really cared that she was gonna suffer horrible side effects. And had he succeed in turning Oliver into his new sidekick, feral!Thea would have also been without a brother.

 

But then, not worrying about how any of this affects Thea is what an evil villain is supposed to do. Oh, wait.

Edited October 20, 2015 by dtissagirl

[apinknightmare]

I agree, I just think that argument works really well in the Oliver using the pit for Thea vs. Laurel using it for Sara debate. On top of the fact that Thea wasn't dead and Laurel had to do a little grave robbing, Oliver would've felt like he owed it to Thea to give her another shot at life by any means necessary considering he would've considered it his fault that Thea got run through in the first place, since he turned Ra's down. 

 

I'm really hoping that someone doesn't make that "well, you did it for Thea" argument to Oliver when he's pissed at Laurel for what she did, but I'm guessing someone will. It'll probably be Felicity. 

Edited October 18, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Primal Slayer]

Laurel thinks she can help Thea along with getting her sister back. Nothing villainous about it. Oliver gave a mass murderer his own assassin group just because he thought if Malcolm died, Thea would lose her innocence or whatever. They make very questionable decisions all the time.  Now will they actually portray all of this in the way they should? I doubt it.

[AyChihuahua]

Insane troll logic that leads to Lauriver.

 

I wonder what RAG would have done if Oliver had just let Thea die?  Killed Felicity, to see if Oliver would take that bait, or just kidnapped him and brainwashed him?  It makes NO SENSE that he wanted Oliver to agree to do it, since RAG was just going to brainwash him into it anyway.

 

Oh wait, I keep forgetting that NOTHING IN S3 MADE ANY SENSE.

 

#NEVERFORGIVE.

 

 

I'm really hoping that someone doesn't make that "well, you did it for Thea" argument to Oliver when he's pissed at Laurel for what she did, but I'm guessing someone will. It'll probably be Felicity.

You think they'll have Felicity make that argument?  In S3 I would say yes, because they were kind of awful to each other, but so far they've been great.  I think they'll have Laurel say it, or maybe even Thea.  (I totally agree SOMEONE will say it.)

Edited October 18, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[apinknightmare]

 

Laurel thinks she can help Thea along with getting her sister back. Nothing villainous about it.

 

[Edited by mod.]

 

And IMO, the way they played that Laurel/Thea scene doesn't make it seem like she's concerned at all about Thea's state of mind because of Thea. Seems like she's concerned about Thea's state of mind because of Sara, and what would happen to her post resurrection. 

You think they'll have Felicity make that argument?  In S3 I would say yes, because they were kind of awful to each other, but so far they've been great.  I think they'll have Laurel say it, or maybe even Thea.  (I totally agree SOMEONE will say it.)

 

Yeah, I think she'll say it, but not in an awful way. She'd bring it up in an adult conversation (not throw it in his face) where she gently talks him through his anger with Laurel.

Edited October 19, 2015 by MuuMuuChainsmoker

[AyChihuahua]

Because it's helpful to take the 20-year-old emotionally-disturbed woman to help grave-rob the grave of the woman she murdered, and then take her back to where she was brought back to life using a dark magic Jacuzzi after she asked not even to be taken near any non-dark magic Jacuzzis.  All while lying by omission to her older brother, who just asked you to take care of her.

[bijoux]

But Ollie probably wants that in his bones, so it's cool.

[tangerine95]

Laurel is not doing this to help Thea at all.The show could have set it up that way but it really didn't.Every scene where Thea was talking about the pit played out like LL was looking for info,KC gave a reaction of forming a plan and thinking about Sara not concern for Thea.

She says maybe the League can help but she has no idea since she only just found out about the pit.Malcolm is the new Ras and has been in the league for years if he knew of a way to help Thea right after she was brought back he would have done it.If she wanted to see if the league could help Thea she could have suggested it to Oliver who can actually just call Malcolm.Laurel is also lying to the person who loves Thea the most.If she was helping her and not just trying to get to the pit for Sara she would have involved Oliver in it but she had to lie so no one would try and stop her.There's no way to make this not look selfish for Laurel IMO.

Edited October 18, 2015 by tangerine95

[Primal Slayer]

Yeah she went about it the wrong way, her heart is in the right place but her actions could've been better. Thea wants to help her though and if they are able to find a way to subdue the side effects Thea caused, it could only help them. Something needs to be since Thea seems like she will only get more aggressive until someone is not there to stop her. But who knows, maybe if the others knew about Thea setting Anarky on fire, Laurel might've dealt with it differently.

 

[Edited by mod.]

Edited October 19, 2015 by MuuMuuChainsmoker

[Angel12d]

I find it hard to believe that Laurel thinks she can help Thea while saving Sara (although can you really be saved if you're already dead?). I'll accept that as their intent because LL in the writers' heads is like a saint whose halo never grows heavy, but IMO the scene didn't come across that way at all. Helping Thea came across as an afterthought or just an excuse to get what she wanted. I saw nothing but a rash and selfish act. Do I blame her for wanting her sister back? Of course not! But the way she went about it was wrong.

 

You know what actually would have made this better? A simple "Will you help me, Thea?" Not making a decision and dragging Thea into it afterwards.

Edited October 18, 2015 by Angel12d

[AyChihuahua]

If it turns out that Laurel knows that Malcolm is now RAG, it will be very apparent that she's not doing it for Thea.  Because yeah, Malcolm knew there'd be bad side effects and he loves [barf] Thea, and he's a pretty proactive guy, so obviously if he knew of or learned about something that would have negated the LP effects he would have already talked to Thea and/or Oliver about it.  But isn't it an INTERESTING coincidence that Laurel's all about helping Thea when she knows that MalcolmRAG would do something for Thea he'd never consider doing for Laurel?

Edited October 18, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[dtissagirl]

I'm never gonna buy it that Laurel is "saving" Sara. Not even when Constantine shows up and probably reveals that Sara's soul is being tortured in hell or something, and isn't it grand that Laurel ~had the foreshight~ to do it. Yeah. Nopety nopey NOPE.

[Angel12d]

Either way, whatever happens, this is giving Sara such a rich backstory for LoT. She's died like 3 times now, one time for real. Gets brought back from the dead. Trained with the LoA. Now she's gonna be a legend. It's pretty damn amazing actually.

Edited October 18, 2015 by Angel12d

[Sakura12]

They even have Malcolm saying that putting Sara in the pit doesn't mean that it's Sara that will be coming out. The summary for the episode also says that Nyssa is against it and it still looks like Laurel continues it after having two people that actually have access to the pit telling her not to use it. 

[apinknightmare]

I think the more people who tell Laurel what she's doing is wrong, the more right she's going to be for doing it. Sara will thank her, all will be well, etc. 

[AyChihuahua]

Nyssa not wanting to do it should be a colossal red flag for Laurel, because Nyssa knows about the Pit and loved Sara, and Laurel knows both those facts.  

[wonderwall]

Nyssa not wanting to do it should be a colossal red flag for Laurel, because Nyssa knows about the Pit and loved Sara, and Laurel knows both those facts.  

 

Selfish people don't care. It's just who she is. And it's not the good kind of selfish (you know, the kind where you take a moment to take care of yourself), it's the bad kind.

 

ETA: And this is my last post about LL for a while. Why even bother when it was always inevitable that the writers are going to screw her up again. The writers just don't care about her. 

 

ETA Again: apparently I can't stop shutting up about this -_- I hate myself.

Edited October 19, 2015 by wonderwall

[statsgirl]

I think the more people who tell Laurel what she's doing is wrong, the more right she's going to be for doing it. Sara will thank her, all will be well, etc. 

Because that's the way the writing for Laurel always rolls.

 

I hate it that I can't even hold her to account for her actions because the writing always makes her brave&strong&loveswithallherheart.

[EmeraldArcher]

Frankly, if LL is not either dead or relocated by the end of this season - I may seriously consider dropping the show live and just watching it after the fact when it comes out on DVDs and I can borrow it from the library. I can't survive another season of trying to apply logic to her character or analyze where they went wrong or could have done better. And I've yet to find that happy zen place some people here have found where they can just point and laugh.

I'm with you, @kismet! I NEVER thought I would get to the point where a single character could ruin my favorite show, but I despise LL and HATE how the show always lets her off the hook for her outrageous stupidity, selfishness, manipulation, haughtiness, and disgusting assholery. [Edited by mod.] my problem with LL is that she degrades my beloved characters when they accommodate her horrible behavior. The thought that Oliver can ever forgive her for her gross manipulation of Thea or for violating Sara angers me so much. I agree with @AyChihuahua that Oliver's prayer for RAG was disgusting, but I could almost hand wave that because the writers were going for artistic symmetry more than respecting Oliver as a character. In fact, I believe they intended it to be a noble gesture. Oliver sucked in S3 for sure--everyone did--but LL has consistently sucked since the beginning.

I also perceived LL/KC's expression as disgust when she looked at the resurrected Sara in chains. She just fails in every conceivable way, and neither the actress or the character can sell a modicum of affection for SL. I probably should stop complaining about LL/KC and focus on the things I love about Arrow, but she casts such a dark shadow on something I've been a loyal fan of since the pilot. Ugh.

Edited October 19, 2015 by MuuMuuChainsmoker

[jay741982]

All of this crap that Laurel does and never truly pays for the consequences reminds me of Lana from Smallville. I grew to hate Lana cause of it and same for Laurel. Yet Felicity bashers act like she's the Mary sue

[Chaser]

That's interesting timing. TV Guide has an article about how Sara loses her humanity (the side effects are much more worse for her than Thea) and her story on LOT is trying to regain it. 

 

It also says Laurel will be by her side. Unless Laurel exits or becomes the Floater (if that's still a thing), Laurel will be by her side for like two episode. 

[EmeraldArcher]

That's interesting timing. TV Guide has an article about how Sara loses her humanity (the side effects are much more worse for her than Thea) and her story on LOT is trying to regain it. 

 

It also says Laurel will be by her side. Unless Laurel exits or becomes the Floater (if that's still a thing), Laurel will be by her side for like two episode.

You're giving me ideas, based on that TV Guide spoiler. What if the reason we haven't heard anything about LL in 4B is because she exits and/or is the floater? It might put the Reverse!213 scene in the right context--maybe Oliver and Laurel make nice because they want to part on better terms, given their history?!

[tarotx]

The Sara info is a quote from LOT'S show runner but The Laurel info isn't-seems it's coming from what WM said earlier.

"Her story is really a simple one. It's her trying to regain her humanity, trying to find a human connection," Legends showrunner Phil Klemmer says. "It's kind of this paradox that she's selected for the team because she's this ruthless, cold-blooded assassin and what she really wants is to feel again. And these two things are at odds."

But despite all the ways Sara will have drastically changed when she comes back from the dead, Laurel will continue to stand by her sister's side.

http://www.tvguide.com/news/arrow-legends-of-tomorrow-spoilers-sara-lance/