Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Sakura12]

If Sara's not herself when she rises from the pit and Constantine comes in and bring her back, we could kind of count that has he resurrected the real Sara. 

[apinknightmare]

True. I'm hoping that she's not resurrected until 4x05 though, because I really don't care for all that much time to be tied up with Sara. Again. /unpopular opinion

[Sakura12]

For me I'm waiting for Sara to leave Arrow so I don't have to watch it anymore (except for crossovers). Nothing I've seen interests me enough to start watching again. 

[tv echo]

Previous spoilers for the 5th episode (4x04, previously 4x05):

-- Per MG, Billy Joel song for 5th episode would be a tie between: "Modern Woman", "Only the Good Die Young", "She's Always a Woman", "She's Right on Time" and "That's Not Her Style." (MG tumblr post, page 19 of Spoilers thread)
-- A character is getting resurrected during 4x05. (TVLine, EW and Hollywood Reporter articles, page 19 of Spoilers thread)
-- John Constantine (played by Matt Ryan) will appear in this episode. Per MG, he "will factor into the fallout from bringing Sara Lance (Caity Lotz) back to life via the Lazarus Pit." He will provide “critical support to Oliver (Stephen Amell) when arrows aren’t enough.” (SpoilerTV, TVInsider and EW articles, page 19 of Spoilers thread)
-- Per WM, John Constantine is tied to Sara Lance's resurrection. (Collider article, page 19 of Spoilers thread)
-- Per WM, Constantine's role was "born out of the storyline for Sara Lance. We needed someone to come in and help bring her back.". (IGN article, page 19 of Spoilers thread)

[dtissagirl]

Didn't the EPs (multiple ones) say that Constantine is brought on to help with a resurrection? I suppose there could be more than one, but IDK.

 

I think there are conflicting quotes.

 

Mark Pedowitz said in his TCA panel that "someone gets resurrected" in the Constantine episode:

http://tvline.com/2015/08/11/arrow-constantine-matt-ryan-guest-star-season-4/

 

“It’s a great one-shot episode,” CW President Mark Pedowitz said. Following the panel, Pedowitz teased that “a character will get resurrected” during the installment.

 

Then Wendy Mericle said it's tied to Sara's resurrection, but was way more vague about it:

 

http://collider.com/arrow-season-4-producer-wendy-mericle-talks-threats-and-challenges/

 

How long have you been working to get John Constantine onto Arrow, and was it a challenge to make that happen?

 

MERICLE: I wouldn’t say it was a challenge. It is tied to Sara Lance’s resurrection. We knew that Sara had died at the beginning of Season 3 and that she was going to be on Legends, so we had to find a way to bring her back. We were like, “How do you do that?,” and he was the most obvious character to do that. We feel honored and excited that we got him, and that Matt Ryan is available. He’s amazing.

 

 

And then there's this quote Guggenheim:

 

http://collider.com/arrow-season-4-producer-wendy-mericle-talks-threats-and-challenges/

 

Without spoiling the whole story, Guggenheim hints that the master of the dark arts will factor into the fallout from bringing Sara Lance (Caity Lotz) back to life via the Lazarus Pit. "Unlike Thea, who wasn’t fully dead, the consequences of using the pit on someone as dead as Sara was creates some unforeseen difficulties...and John Constantine is uniquely suited to help our team deal with those."

[tv echo]

From the MP, MG and WM quotes, it's arguable either way - Sara gets resurrected via the LP prior to the 5th episode but Constantine is needed to restore her sanity OR Sara gets resurrected via the LP during the 5th episode and Constantine is needed to do that.

[tarotx]

Tv echo thanks for continuing to bring back quotes and such to help with spoiler discussions. You are awesome!

[dtissagirl]

If Sara is brought back in 403, maybe she needs a second dip in the LP in 405 to fix whatever went wrong the first time around. And Constantine would be the one to figure that out. It would also explain PB & KC in the LP set in 405.

[AyChihuahua]

I'm guessing her body is resurrected in 4.03 or whenever, but her soul is brought back in 4.05 (in my spec it's not with her body bc it's busy haunting Thea). I really don't want her to have been in hell. She was fundamentally a good person...I don't want her to have been in hell anymore than I would want Oliver to go to hell if he died.

[HighwayFlower]

But if she is resurected in 3, and 3 is the last episode Katrina Law filmed, that does not bode well. No way Nyssa would take off while Sara was going through a bunch of "back from the dead" repercussions. She would be by her side trying to help... Unless she can't....

[tv echo]

Robert Dougherty did an analysis of the S4 trailer, 12 Biggest Takeaways From 'Arrow' Season 4 Trailer, and here are some interesting excerpts from it:

Nevertheless, this appears to be another season premiere where Oliver and Felicity are in bliss before everything blows up in their faces. The last time that happened, they weren't allowed to smile again for another seven months -- yet now co-showrunner Marc Guggenheim is at least giving the appearance he has learned his lesson this season.
*  *  *
One of the still lingering mistakes from the mess of Season 3 is the shattering of Oliver and Diggle, which unfortunately may have to take its sweet time to repair, even with Felicity using her 'loud voice' after they don't have each other's back. At the least, however, Diggle is recognizing the problem, unlike others still raging at Oliver.
*  *  *
Any hope that Captain Lance's renewed anti-Arrow crusade might start to calm down after the S3 finale was promptly shattered by one mid-trailer rant. Unfortunately, this seems to be one of the ugly Season 3 mistakes that Guggenheim may be doubling down on, hopefully not to the point that killing off another Lance would be merciful to his character by then -- even if the most bitter fans still think that would be killing off the wrong Lance.
 

Of course, the proper context is that it's been over a year and no one, especially Laurel, still hasn't told Quentin exactly why Sara's death is not on Oliver -- regardless of what that might bring on her then-brainwashed killer Thea.
*  *  *
Out of the many rotten story telling choices used to prop up Oliver's shark-jumping alliance with Malcolm last season, the one that lingered most at the end was him willingly giving Malcolm the League of Assassins over 'wife' and legitimate heir Nyssa. Fortunately, Nyssa seems to get at least one chance at a coup d'etat -- perhaps to the point that Malcolm goes to extremes to buy her off.
*  *  *
Sara Lance was only killed in the first place to justify Laurel replacing her, justify Quentin loathing Oliver again -- regardless of whether he was the right target -- justify misery and woe all season that even Guggenheim admitted he overdid -- well after everyone else recognized it -- and to eventually resurrect her for Legends of Tomorrow anyway -- a spinoff that also ruined Season 3 by making it necessary to put Ray Palmer in it, for no other truly good reason.
 

And yet launching Caity Lotz out of the Pit, and eventually into lighter attire, is designed to make it all okay. Two shows will be needed to answer if it was.
*  *  *
In just a few seconds of a trailer, Echo Kellum's Curtis Holt -- who also goes by the name Mr. Terrific -- shows more of a potential connection with Felicity than Ray was ever allowed to have, with or without the eternally unaddressed stalking. And since this new male partner of Felicity's is gay, the Olicity faithful can take it easy on him.

Edited September 8, 2015 by tv echo

[Starfish35]

it depends on whether Nyssa is involved in resurrecting her. If Nyssa is against it, she might not believe that whatever comes out of the pit is really her beloved Sara.

But I'm not going to deny that KL not being around doesn't sound good, especially if they do go back to the pit in 405. I just really hope they don't kill her though. She still needs to kill Malcolm - lol.

[Sakura12]

KL not being around is worrying. Although they could've filmed things out of order like filming 4x05 with Constantine before 4x04. Maybe KL filmed her scenes for 4x05 earlier too. When does filming for 4x06 start? 

[Morrigan2575]

KL not being around is worrying. Although they could've filmed things out of order like filming 4x05 with Constantine before 4x04. Maybe KL filmed her scenes for 4x05 earlier too. When does filming for 4x06 start? 

Wednesday

Edited September 8, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[AyChihuahua]

I'm guessing Nyssa is either dead, at MM's or crazySara's hand, or Malcolm's imprisoned her for defying him. I like Nyssa but I am not that riled up about it, personally. She's tied to too much of what I utterly loathed about last season, including all things LOA.

Edited September 8, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[calliope1975]

What is with supervillains need to kill cities? How does that benefit them? For once, I want a smart villain that doesn't want to destroy the universe. 

[HighwayFlower]

Nyssa and Sara need a resolution, or there has to be a reason she doesnt follow her to LOT.

[apinknightmare]

Since MG said they get a reunion "of sorts," I'm gonna go out on a limb and take a wild guess that Nyssa bites it.

[lexicon]

Since MG said they get a reunion "of sorts," I'm gonna go out on a limb and take a wild guess that Nyssa bites it.

 

But I don't understand, is Nyssa Raatko dead in the comics? From what I see on FB, this is show based on COMICS and any deviation from 'comic canon' is not to be countenanced or we face the ire of the comic fanboys.

 

I don't want the comic fanboys to riot if Nyssa is killed and surely that'll have them up in arms, or is it only Olicity that gets 'em riled up?

[AyChihuahua]

Two things: (1) apparently there's a bit of a freakout in the Olicity fandom right now that, based on the GA/BC Facebook pic, KC's "smug" behavior at the most recent con, and some of the spoilers, that either Felicity dies ASAP or turns out to be evil. I'm weirdly so not at all worried about that. They would lose a significant portion of their viewership pretty immediately if they really killed her or made her actually evil (v. temporarily controlled by magic or some such nonsense), and they know that.

(2) Someone on Tumblr had an interesting theory, that NM is not really Damien Darhk, that he's another "cutout." The idea is that Felicity's dad turns up a little later and is pretty normal and works to reconnect with her, and it turns out that guy is actually Damien Darhk. It's an interesting spec, BUT I think real world issues, particularly Neal McDonough being a fairly big get for Arrow, rule it out.

Edited September 8, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Morrigan2575]

Is this new?  If so I'll add it to the Spoiler Only Thread

 

http://tvline.com/gallery/fall-tv-2015-season-premiere-spoilers/#!1/fall-preview-arrow/

When Season 4 opens, "The city has declined drastically despite the best
efforts of Dig, Speedy and Black Canary," executive producer Wendy
Mericle previews. "And with the arrival of Damien Darhk (Justified's
Neal McDonough) on the scene, it's obviously big stakes." Hence, Oliver
and Felicity's return – though not everyone is welcoming back the
archer with open arms. Dig is still "frosty" toward his "brother,"
Mericle says, while Quentin still is not thrilled with the masked
vigilantes yet has come to see them "as a necessary evil." Speaking of
the Lance clan, Constantine (guest star Matt Ryan) will be "key" in
resurrecting Sara, whose presence will be met by "very different
reactions" from her family. As for Thea, her secret identity and new
love interest (Suburgatory's Parker Young) will force her to
tackle a challenge Oliver is all too familiar with: "She's now a
superhero, and she wants to have a normal life," Mericle notes. "How
does she balance both of those things?"

BONUS SPOILER!: Mericle shared this cryptic tease after we
mentioned a popular fan theory about Oliver running for Mayor: "He will
definitely be coming more to the fore as Oliver Queen and balancing that
with his new role as the Green Arrow. He'll be bringing some light to
the city. I can't say exactly how, but that's his goal."

RETURN DATE: Wednesday, Oct. 7 at 8/7c (The CW)

 

It sounds familiar but I can't tell if it's familiar because we've seen it before or if it's just a rewording of older stuff.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Sakura12]

But I don't understand, is Nyssa Raatko dead in the comics? From what I see on FB, this is show based on COMICS and any deviation from 'comic canon' is not to be countenanced or we face the ire of the comic fanboys.

 

I don't want the comic fanboys to riot if Nyssa is killed and surely that'll have them up in arms, or is it only Olicity that gets 'em riled up?

 

In the comics Nyssa was killed by the LOA.

[apinknightmare]

Is this new?  If so I'll add it to the Spoiler Only Thread

 

http://tvline.com/gallery/fall-tv-2015-season-premiere-spoilers/#!1/fall-preview-arrow/

It sounds familiar but I can't tell if it's familiar because we've seen it before or if it's just a rewording of older stuff.

 

I haven't seen this particular interview yet. 

 

Also:

 

 

 

Quentin still is not thrilled with the masked vigilantes yet has come to see them "as a necessary evil."

 

I, FOR ONE, AM SHOCKED.

[Morrigan2575]

OK, I'll add it to the Spoiler Only thread.  Thanks!

[Starfish35]

I, FOR ONE, AM SHOCKED.

Ha. :) Aren't we all.

[dtissagirl]

I keep waiting for someone to tell Quentin THAT MAYBE IF HIS POLICE DEPARTMENT WEREN'T THE WORSTEST IN THE UNIVERSE, maybe people wouldn't be going out dressed in Halloween costumes.

[Chaser]

Two things: (1) apparently there's a bit of a freakout in the Olicity fandom right now that, based on the GA/BC Facebook pic, KC's "smug" behavior at the most recent con, and some of the spoilers, that either Felicity dies ASAP or turns out to be evil. I'm weirdly so not at all worried about that. They would lose a significant portion of their viewership pretty immediately if they really killed her or made her actually evil (v. temporarily controlled by magic or some such nonsense), and they know that.

(2) Someone on Tumblr had an interesting theory, that NM is not really Damien Darhk, that he's another "cutout." The idea is that Felicity's dad turns up a little later and is pretty normal and works to reconnect with her, and it turns out that guy is actually Damien Darhk. It's an interesting spec, BUT I think real world issues, particularly Neal McDonough being a fairly big get for Arrow, rule it out.

People don't know that pic is apart of a series. Every time KC talks positively the fans freak out. I saw this going on last night. I think it was due to a popular blogger posting an If Felicity Dies/If People Stop Talking Olicity/If Laurel Gets A lot Of Attention then this could happen. Add in SAs comments about the hallway scene and a training scene and the fans freaked out. Suddenly spoilers can spell the worst, even if logic says they don't.

If I think too much about Felicitys dad I'm going to be disappointed.

Pretty sure Nyssa is toast. They are talking about her like they talked about Sara last summer.

[lexicon]

In the comics Nyssa was killed by the LOA.

 

Well that really does sound like sayonara Nyssa. It was nice knowing you.

 

I really am going to miss Katrina Law though, her Nyssa comes across as such a BAMF, man that woman can move.

[Angel12d]

But I don't understand, is Nyssa Raatko dead in the comics? From what I see on FB, this is show based on COMICS and any deviation from 'comic canon' is not to be countenanced or we face the ire of the comic fanboys.

 

I don't want the comic fanboys to riot if Nyssa is killed and surely that'll have them up in arms, or is it only Olicity that gets 'em riled up?

 

Olicity is to blame for everything if you listen to the fanboys. And on Facebook, Felicity is a cancer apparently. So if Nyssa dies, it'll be Felicity/Olicity's fault. LOL.

 

Not but seriously. STOP KILLING FEMALE CHARACTERS 2K15. 

 

I don't think it will happen because I feel like Nyssa is quite popular. But who knows?

Two things: (1) apparently there's a bit of a freakout in the Olicity fandom right now that, based on the GA/BC Facebook pic, KC's "smug" behavior at the most recent con, and some of the spoilers, that either Felicity dies ASAP or turns out to be evil. I'm weirdly so not at all worried about that. They would lose a significant portion of their viewership pretty immediately if they really killed her or made her actually evil (v. temporarily controlled by magic or some such nonsense), and they know that.

 

I wouldn't pay any attention to that. There's always some freak out going on and it's not widespread. And from what I understand, the person who started this new O/L theory if EBR left the show is the same one who was promoting the choo choo wedding theory last season. So yeah. There's a lot of reaching going on. 

Edited September 8, 2015 by Angel12d

[AyChihuahua]

I wouldn't pay any attention to that. There's always some freak out going on and it's not widespread. And from what I understand, the person who started this new O/L theory if EBR left the show is the same one who was promoting the choo choo wedding theory last season. So yeah. There's a lot of reaching going on.

I think it was originally callistawolf, who was somewhat angsting/somewhat hypothesizing that IF Felicity died, O/L could come back. I don't worry about O/L AT ALL. I think the anti-chem permeates their every interaction and is insoluble. I will never even buy them as teammates. If Felicity died bc EBR wanted off the show then I think either he'd be single, with someone new, or maybe they'd bring back Helena or McKenna. I also feel like SA has a little bit of say now and he would use all his pull to kill any move towards O/L. jbuffyangel (who is definitely an overly optimistic kook who reads a LOT into the show that is not there) tried to clear that one up.

[Chaser]

Why doesn't Diggle just wear a motorcycle helmet everywhere? What is the difference?

 

I think it was originally callistawolf, who was somewhat angsting/somewhat hypothesizing that IF Felicity died, O/L could come back. I don't worry about O/L AT ALL. I think the anti-chem permeates their every interaction and is insoluble. I will never even buy them as teammates. If Felicity died bc EBR wanted off the show then I think either he'd be single, with someone new, or maybe they'd bring back Helena or McKenna. I also feel like SA has a little bit of say now and he would use all his pull to kill any move towards O/L. jbuffyangel (who is definitely an overly optimistic kook who reads a LOT into the show that is not there) tried to clear that one up.

I would be more concerned if SA had brought it up on his own, but he was adding to KC's answer on something. And if it was something big I think KC would have jumped on it instead of saying Laurel isn't the love interest at the other panel. 

[Sakura12]

Diggle's helmet still looks so stupid. I think that kind of identity concealment would draw more attention then not wearing one. 

 

Get Diggle a regular motorcycle helmet 2015!

[Carrie Ann]

 

 

First pic: GOOD. Second pic: WHY.

 

I just...do not believe John Diggle would put that thing on his head. I feel like he would look at it, give the person who handed it to him a blank stare of doom, and then walk away.

[apinknightmare]

The first pick is GOOD, SO GOOD. 

 

The second pic makes me wonder if he uses that thing as a snack bowl when he's not fighting. 

[Angel12d]

He looks so yummy in the first picture and then it's ruined. Is anyone else secretly hoping that Felicity sees his helmet when she comes back and is like 'Oh no, we can do better than that' and then we get something else? PLEASE.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Angel12d

[Chaser]

He looks miserable in that thing.

[dtissagirl]

Who's gonna be looking at his face anyway WITH THOSE ARMS RIGHT THERE.

[Morrigan2575]

Love the first pic.  Hate the 2nd one.

[Angel12d]

No but poor David Ramsey having to work in that thing for hours. I just can't believe they thought that was acceptable. 

[Chaser]

Has anyone heard if BR is in Vancouver?

 

CR is headed to set today.

[HighwayFlower]

He looks miserable in that helmet! And they squished his face!

[Sakura12]

BR was at the table read for LoT that MG posted last week. 

[dtissagirl]

The LoT pilot starts filming tomorrow.

[Morrigan2575]

CR?

 

Oh Charlotte Ross.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[doesntworkonwood]

The helmet looks like it could poke him in the eye.

[AyChihuahua]

It's basically a leather jacket with a leather (maybe Kevlar?) vest underneath, black cargo pants, and boots. All stuff he'd have in his closet already. Then this utterly ridiculous but also very high-tech-looking helmet. It does not go together. I mean, IMO the ATOM suit looks idiotic, but at least it's not like all robot-y from the neck down, coupled with a Rockets baseball cap on his head.

[kismet]

Two things: (1) apparently there's a bit of a freakout in the Olicity fandom right now that, based on the GA/BC Facebook pic, KC's "smug" behavior at the most recent con, and some of the spoilers, that either Felicity dies ASAP or turns out to be evil. I'm weirdly so not at all worried about that. They would lose a significant portion of their viewership pretty immediately if they really killed her or made her actually evil (v. temporarily controlled by magic or some such nonsense), and they know that.

(2) Someone on Tumblr had an interesting theory, that NM is not really Damien Darhk, that he's another "cutout." The idea is that Felicity's dad turns up a little later and is pretty normal and works to reconnect with her, and it turns out that guy is actually Damien Darhk. It's an interesting spec, BUT I think real world issues, particularly Neal McDonough being a fairly big get for Arrow, rule it out.

(1) - KC usually always seems a little smug about BC at times onscreen & offscreen. I don't see that as a forewarning for anything good, bad, indifferent. It's like saying it seemed a little dark at night or the water felt wet. IMO, fandom freak-out managed.

 

(2) - They could play on DD not being the DD we meet in s4a. Earlier conversations have mentioned mind-control, glamouring, shape-shifting, etc. Depending on what DD/HIVE's powers & prowess is, he could still heavily be involved in FS's Father issues. NM could be the face of DD, but the man behind the curtain could be FS's father the real DD (not what I want). Or NM could portray FS father stuck in another body, he can access her father's mind & speak to her, like a medium. They could play so many different mystical/sci-fi/realistic angles if they wanted to, its really endless the possibilities if they wanted to explore that. Casting NM is a score, but they could use it to their advantage & have him in multiple different personifications of DD or HIVE/DD controlled characters. I just don't want FS's father to be pure evil. So if they must connect him to DD, I hope they found a loophole that makes him not DD.

[kismet]

Olicity is to blame for everything if you listen to the fanboys. And on Facebook, Felicity is a cancer apparently. So if Nyssa dies, it'll be Felicity/Olicity's fault. LOL.

For some fans, we can take it back to SAT test prep ~

Olicity is to Arrow what OQ/GA is to Star(ling) city. Answer - Absolute blame/fault for everything (at least according to some fans & QL).

 

It's getting a little tiresome. Nobody is without some faults, but seriously its getting old to blame everything on Olicity & OQ

[lemotomato]

"Thanks, Olicity/Felicity!" might as well be the fandom equivalent of the "Thanks, Obama!" meme

[kismet]

My thoughts on ARROW/LoT/Flash floater. I have a feeling the plan has changed & there will no longer be a permanent floater. Or at least there will not be an actor that has to physically perform that role. They might name drop, but I think the logistics of filming & contracts may have shelved that concept. But that is just my speculation.

 

However, if they do keep a floater/actor from what was dropped about JB & contract stuff in SDCC as well as his character having potential to be a good floater - he would be my first candidate for the job. I think JB has the acting chops to be able to float between shows & nail every scene. He also seems to keep a really busy professional life outside of ARROW, so professionally he may welcome the job of floater because it will enable him to keep his fingers in all the pies so to speak.

 

MM may become the floater after the fall-out of SL's resurrection. He was handed the title of Ras, it was not earned by LoA standards. The LoA (w/ or w/o Nyssa) may decide to overthrow his reign. It is very likely that he may be forced out of NP & pressed into abdicating his throne. If this is the masterplan of the writers, I hope they then put Nyssa back into her rightful place as Demon's head. This could explain why she is not in later episodes with SL & no longer on set. After defeating MM, and taking her throne the LoA may fall back into the shadows & no longer be part of the main ARROW plot. This would kill so many birds with one stone. It would allow them to keep KL/Nyssa as BAMF; undo one of the more stupid OQ's plans/choices of the finale; relinquish MM from a leadership role; release the writers from having to care about LoA for now & provide closure for some of s3's weaker moments. It would be a smart move from a TV/show production perspective that coincides w/ that other smart move of bring SL back.

 

MM as the floater gives MM both power & makes him a wild card at the same time. It loosens the writers to allow MM to have full reign of whatever story arcs they want. MM could be good. MM could be bad. MM could be playing both sides. His allegiances will be allowed to cater to the moment (which is how I see MM as a character). MM is nebulous by nature & that is where JB excels in characterization. I feel like the floater role could maximize his potential as a character, whereas the HoD role restricts him and makes the show stuck with LoA subplots. MM as HoD distracts from DD and any future major villains, which is why IMO making him the floater is the better creative option for the writers & TPTB.