Spoiler Discussion Thread

[SonofaBiscuit]

Ha, when I did the little recap of the video, I was going to put sanguine in quotes so that people would know it wasn't my word choice.  What are the chances that real people use that word?  I have never used the word sanguine in my entire life, wtf?

[chaos is welcome]

So Ra's can't even brainwash people properly, what is the point of him then? Last season they made him up as the man to fear above all other men. Now they show that he runs the lamest group of assassins ever shown on screen and can't even tell that his heir is faking it.

And he's indecisive as fuck. Kill sarah, nah,must kidding. Alsahim, kill nyssa, nahhhh, just kidding.

They covered the whole "is oliver savable" thing last ep....Felicity asked if they could get him back and they were all like "nope" and that was that. Smh

[Reba]

I am curious as to why Oliver hasn't clued anyone in. Even some sort of head nod. Maybe he's just mad no one clued him in on Roy's plan.

I think that's where Malcolm's statement about them being bad actors comes in.  Seems like Malcolm and Oliver had a plan, they didn't clue in TA because they were worried they could not sell it. Then TA doesn't believe Malcolm and Tatsu needs to convince them.

[looptab]

I guess my disconnect here is that I don't think that they're arguing that he's brainwashed or not brainwashed. It seems like they're believing that this is who Oliver is - that's why it's strange to me that Laurel says "how can you be so sanguine (ugh)" about it - like why is Felicity that optimistic about Oliver after everything they've seen him do - that he's a good guy who was lost after he joined the League. The way this comes off to me is that Diggle and Laurel are arguing that this is showing them that Oliver just is a bad guy. 

Yes, and my problem with this are:

A- Why are they convinced it's him, when last week they found out he is brainwashed? They shouldn't hold it against him, since he is not in his right mind, yet they are pissed.

B- If they aren't considering the brainwashing factor, what the hell were they thinking he was going to have to do once he was in the League? And they knew full well that him joining the League meant being down to do awful things. So I don't get it, are they pissed that he followed orders? That he recurred to targeting Lyla to reach his original target, Nyssa? Are they appalled he did that? To me, it seems excessive. considering that at the end of the day, no one was harmed.

Just this. If they were in search for a reason for them to be at odds, this doesn't seem a good one to me.

[apinknightmare]

I think we're both arguing basically the same thing. It doesn't make sense. 

 

It seems like Felicity is thinking that the League turned Oliver into something that he's not, while Laurel and Diggle seem to be arguing that it's letting him be who he is. Which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. So, to get back to the initial argument (haha), Laurel and Diggle aren't going to be proven right in this argument, because they're wrong - Oliver isn't this kindapping child abandoner at heart. 

[statsgirl]

*winces*  I actually use 'sanguine' a fair bit because it covers things other words don't.

 

I'm so tired about how dark and depressing this show is. It's like the comic book version of kitchen sink drama, and I grew out of that with my teens.  It's like MG thinks he's writing for the Grand Guignol (theatre specializing in horror).

 

It's nice to know that they realize that the heart of the show is Oliver/Diggle/Felicity because look, it's the end of the season and they're focusing on them again!  Just like the first two seasons.  Except it doesn't make up for all the shitty plotting in 20 of the season's 23 episodes.

 

Has the SCPD given up entirely? Is that why Laurel is going after meth dealers?  What about her day job?

 

 

Diggle and Laurel think that IS Oliver as in something he would do just to fuck with them if he wasn't in the League? I'm not getting where they're coming from. Felicity's arguing that he's not the same person, and Diggle is arguing that the real Oliver did this, like this is the person he always was is not who they thought even though (at least, for Diggle) three years of friendship proves otherwise? 

 

Like he would've been capable of fucking with Digg's family (in, again, what is the blandest kidnapping EVER) just because if the stakes weren't, you know, HUGE?

The impression I got is that Digg and Laurel think that Felicity is deep in denial and she's separated the pre-Ra's Oliver from the current one   They think this is who Oliver is now and Felicity needs to wake up and realize it.  And that it's okay for them to be angry at Oliver because he's making these decisions now, while Felicity is holding on to the idea that this is not the real Oliver, who wouldn't be behaving like this.  Not that any of this makes much sense, but if I try really, really hard, I can see it as coping mechanisms for Diggle and Laurel to deal with their anger..

 

The frustrating thing is that yeah, he did kidnap Lyla but no one was hurt and if anyone was capable of taking care of herself it was Lyla.  This is all just a bunch of made up drama to create friction between Oliver and Diggle, even more flimsy than Quentin's anger at him.

Edited May 6, 2015 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

Anyone else think that Ra's knows that Oliver's faking and is going to do something terrible to Felicity to get him to react? 

[AyChihuahua]

One of the tvline columnists went into comments to say that Felicity is key to the plot to save SC by going to NP. 

 

 

A different commenter said that the Canadian promo shows the not-searching of Felicity bc of Oliver's order happening again.

[apinknightmare]

The impression I got is that Digg and Laurel think that Felicity is deep in denial and she's separated the pre-Ra's Oliver from the current one   They think this is who Oliver is now and Felicity needs to wake up and realize it, and it's okay for them to be angry at Oliver because he's making these decisions now.  Not that any of this makes much sense.

 

Yeah, I guess I just don't get it? Pre-Ra's Oliver is different than the one they're dealing with now. She said he died when he joined the League. So I don't really see where the denial is, because that is true. He is a different Oliver now, which she's not arguing? And I don't even know where Diggle and Laurel are coming from. 

[statsgirl]

Sanguine is a weird thing for Laurel to say, and not just because she doesn't usually talk like that, because Felicity isn't optimistic or hopeful, she's in denial that she's lost Oliver permanently.

[looptab]

I think we're both arguing basically the same thing. It doesn't make sense. 

 

It seems like Felicity is thinking that the League turned Oliver into something that he's not, while Laurel and Diggle seem to be arguing that it's letting him be who he is. Which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. So, to get back to the initial argument (haha), Laurel and Diggle aren't going to be proven right in this argument, because they're wrong - Oliver isn't this kindapping child abandoner at heart. 

LOL, yes, I think we are. It's just that a long day and my brain basically fried make it hard for me to find the right words :)

But, re your final sentence, I think the show won't play it this way. I think they're going to have Diggle extremely pissed off even after finding out Oliver was faking, because in his mind he crossed a line, and there are no excuses for what he did, Which, I think it's dumb.

Edited May 6, 2015 by looptab

[catrox14]

The thing is that Laurel didn't even use the word properly as far as I can tell

 

Sanguine is optimistic and cheerful, confident. I didn't get sanguine from Felicity at all. Unless I don't understand the meaning of the word anymore.

[chaos is welcome]

^^ and there is really the rub.

Oliver is already damaged. What in the world is Dig's anger, one of "the only two that matter"...the one who was supposed to help him find himself when he lost his way...what's that going to do to him. Ugh.

[calliope1975]

Poor plotting, poorer dialogue. Digg didn't seem to have a moral quandary when Roy straight up murdered a guy, and he was way less close to Roy than he should be to Oliver. I mean, sure, he then inexplicably wanted to drop Roy, but whatever. Maybe he's still smarting over Lyla. Of all the things they've been through together, a fakeish kidnapping of Lyla is pretty low on the list.

Now Laurel, I think this would be the perfect reason for her to turn on him. She can barely stand him, and this is the perfect opportunity to confirm her feelings.

[lexicon]

Well, they know it'll get people talking, good or bad, so I suppose they're getting what they wanted.

 

THAT RIGHT THERE. That's the whole philosophy behind their promotion strategy. Doesn't matter if its good or bad as long as ppl are talking about it. Which is nice in theory, but what happens when people say enough is enough and decide to walk away? 

 

Of course that's presupposing they even give a fig about promotion because nothing I've seen so far suggests that they do. Well, not about promoting Arrow at any rate, it's all systems go when it comes to the Flash and the yet to debut Epic Gamechanging Superhero Team Up Show. If I sound bitter, it's because I am. I've never seen another shows fans have to beg for interviews/photoshoots/promo material for their favourite characters before. It's beyond ridiculous at this point.

[jay741982]

Anyone else think that Ra's knows that Oliver's faking and is going to do something terrible to Felicity to get him to react?

It's my biggest fear. I see him doing something to her to get Oliver to reveal he's faking or Threaten to do something to her.

[statsgirl]

Stupid plotting for the drama of trouble between Diggle and Oliver. I don't mind if there is friction between them but I want it to be for a good reason.

 

This is all so paint-by-numbers. Give Diggle and Felicity a couple of good scenes with Oliver (Diggle in Nanda Parbat the Suicidal Tendencies; Feliciny in The Offer and The Fallen) and then blow them up and bring on the angst.  Real people don't behave like that.

 

The thing is that Laurel didn't even use the word properly as far as I can tell

Sanguine is optimistic and cheerful, confident. I didn't get sanguine from Felicity at all. Unless I don't understand the meaning of the word anymore.

 

It's more likely Laurel doesn't know the meaning of sanguine.  Anything bloody, and she's there.

[AyChihuahua]

I'm not sure about killing Felicity...EBR's not off the show, but would they use the LP again?  Also, this show hasn't shown that the LP works on actual dead people.  I thought it was somewhat interesting (but these writers are really sloppy, so who knows) that Thea was still (barely) alive when they LPd her.  So if Ra's runs Felicity through (which I'd be quasi-okay with, because it wouldn't be permanent and I'd like Oliver to see that there are consequences TO OTHER PEOPLE for his constant irritating self-sacrificing BS), I'm going to go with time travel.  Totally agree it's not been so much as hinted at in this show, but they've had fairly important Arrow stuff happen on Flash, so that's another sloppy moment for theses hack writers. 

 

However however, Oliver seems sort of normal on the Flash episode, so if Felicity's croaked, I'm guessing it'll be undone quickly?  Overall I guess I doubt that she's killed.

[jay741982]

One of the tvline columnists went into comments to say that Felicity is key to the plot to save SC by going to NP. 

 

 

A different commenter said that the Canadian promo shows the not-searching of Felicity bc of Oliver's order happening again.

I would LOVE to see Felicity have another Big Hero Moment!

[statsgirl]

Positive:  Felicity says "my Oliver".

 

I guess Lyla and Sara are out of SC so they're safe from the virus. That just leaves a few million innocent people.

[tarotx]

Sanguine was used in Mumford and sons' song Lover of the light. So that's what I was thinking when Laurel said it.

I know I've tried

I was not stable

And flawed by pride

I miss my sanguine eyes

So hold my hands up

breathe in and breathe out

So love the one you hold

And I'll be your gold

To have and to hold

A lover of the light

[catrox14]

So cheerful eyes, or bloody red eyes? I'm totally confused...and I think I'm a fairly articulate person and there is no way that sanguine makes any sense at all in that scene.  Yes, I'm nitpicking but was just so glaring.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Sanguine was used in Mumford and sons' song Lover of the light. So that's what I was thinking when Laurel said it.

 

 

Thank you!  I was thinking that the word was part of some song lyrics, and now I know where I've heard it before.  Perhaps Laurel is a Marcus Mumford fan?  

 

I'm expecting lots of not exactly sanguine posts after tonight's episode.

[lexicon]

They covered the whole "is oliver savable" thing last ep....Felicity asked if they could get him back and they were all like "nope" and that was that. Smh

 

That got me so angry. It's been 3 weeks and they're already ready to give up on him. Where are the people who tranq'd him so he wouldn't hand himself over to Slade? Or who worked at his side and saw his scars both physical and mental for the past three years, who saw what he overcame for 5 years to return to SC? Shouldn't they have more faith in him? I would've thought so. I mean, we the audience seem to have more faith/doubt in the effectiveness of Ra's brainwashing techniques than the people who know and love him best. Stupid writers and their need to adopt the stupidest reasons to further their stupid plot.

 

While I'm at it, I don't get Dig being mad enough at Oliver for kidnapping Lyla for it to resonate into the next season. It was done either under duress or under the influence of brainwashing and after all they've been through together I'd think more would be needed to drive a wedge between them. Also, it's not like Lyla is some wilting flower, she a BAMF and she was taken and returned unharmed. What more could a brainwashed/faking it Oliver do in that situation? Not kidnap Lyla? Sure but it resolved the whole capturing Nyssa thing without bloodshed so it's hard for me to hate on it as a plan. So once again stupid writers...

[Chaser]

Just watched the clip. Both right and both wrong. Idk 

 

I do know I love Felicity's outfit.

 

Diggle going out and beating up criminals to take out his anger. Yep, he is spending lots of time with Laurel.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Where is this virus going to be released?  Nanda Parbat?  

 

The birth of a major DC superhero begins tonight.  I guess that means Thea is getting her mask.

[Tallis]

I never thought I'd be glad to hear there are no shirtless Oliver scenes.

[tv echo]

The TVLine comments are actually pretty interesting to read - so thx for pointing them out, AyChihuahua...

Vlada Gelman says:

May 6, 2015 at 9:45 AM
“When Diggle, Felicity, Laurel, Malcolm and Tatsu land in Nanda Parbat with the hopes of saving their city from the Alpha Omega virus”
Felicity is key in that plot.

Edited May 6, 2015 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

Since Felicity is key in saving Starling from the virus, I wonder if she somehow unleashes it in Nanda Parbat? Or if she contacts Barry and STAR Labs and somehow manages to get something going so they could drop it nearby and they could take care of it? That would give Oliver a reason to be in CC for the Flash ep, and then Ra's tries to destroy SC by other means in the finale? 

 

Maybe Felicity somehow finds a way to get rid of the virus but has to expose herself to it in order to do that? 

[catahoulamama]

THAT RIGHT THERE. That's the whole philosophy behind their promotion strategy. Doesn't matter if its good or bad as long as ppl are talking about it. Which is nice in theory, but what happens when people say enough is enough and decide to walk away? 

 

Of course that's presupposing they even give a fig about promotion because nothing I've seen so far suggests that they do. Well, not about promoting Arrow at any rate, it's all systems go when it comes to the Flash and the yet to debut Epic Gamechanging Superhero Team Up Show. If I sound bitter, it's because I am. I've never seen another shows fans have to beg for interviews/photoshoots/promo material for their favourite characters before. It's beyond ridiculous at this point.

And it would be even worse if not for Amell's own personal presence and interaction with the fans on social media.  There would be very little at all if he wasn't as engaged as he is.  It's pathetic. The show's good enough to use as a launching pad for other spinoffs, yet not worthy of it's own press and interview with the central cast.  What the hell ever.

[Chaser]

All I know is her smarts better be the key and not a rehash of hide the gun/syringe with Felicity.

[tv echo]

Damn... so Oliver does actually marry Nyssa.  And his brainwashing is still ambiguous by the end of tonite's episode.  Double damn.

 

I wonder if the insane cliffhanger that this episode ends on is Team Arrow being exposed to the virus?

[chaos is welcome]

Remember how yest we were wondering if they would stay tight lipped or spoil EVERYTHING? I think it's the latter. Oliver isn't back to his old self by the end of the ep, so is flash gonna make sense at all? Guessing no. Which defeats the purpose of a shared universe IMO.

I hope these last two eps are terrible so I can just let this train wreck go. Although I still ma buy the soundtrack. Darn u blake neely.

Who is gonna buy a DVD of this???????

[apinknightmare]

Damn... so Oliver does actually marry Nyssa.  And his brainwashing is still ambiguous by the end of tonite's episode.  Double damn.

 

I wonder if the insane cliffhanger that this episode ends on is Team Arrow being exposed to the virus?

 

 

Yeah, I was just thinking that. I posted it a couple of comments above. I wonder if that's how Felicity is key - she disposes of the virus, but has to expose herself to it in order to do that. They'll probably end the ep with blood coming out of her mouth like with Akio.

[statsgirl]

Maybe Felicity somehow finds a way to get rid of the virus but has to expose herself to it in order to do that? 

I'd be so happy if that happened.  And then the cliff-hanger can be 1.  Can Oliver and Nyssa get rid of Ra's and 2. Will Felicity survive or will Ray have to find someone else to run his company.

 

Bonus marks for showing that Felicity can be a badass even if she doesn't wear black leather and buckles.

[tv echo]

Ugh... so maybe tonite's ep. ends with Felicity, Diggle, Laurel, Tatsu, Maseo, Ray and nameless assassins collapsed all over Nanda Parbat, while Ra's, Oliver and Nyssa escape in the jet.  Oliver leaving his friends behind like that would be difficult to forgive (irredeemable).

Edited May 6, 2015 by tv echo

[Tallis]

Who is gonna buy a DVD of this???????

Well... there are one or two things I'd like to revisit. Plus, there may be extra scenes of those certain things. I'll definitely be waiting till the price drops though.

[TanyaKay]

I hated Laurel's presence in that scene. I mean last week, she was willing to let Lyla stay kidnapped with LoA/Al Sah-him in order to save her 3 weeks old BFF Nyssa and this week she is judging Felicity for still having faith in a man she loves and who has done so much for everyone, esp Laurel herself. What a really horrible person. For most times, I switch my brains off when they put Laurel in a scene and I do not notice much but I absolutely loathe it when she had the gall to mock Felicity for her faith in Oliver.
Someone needs to tell Laurel that people who actually love are like that. Not that she would not know what it is considering she never really loved anyone. Neither Tommy or Oliver or even her sister. Everything always had to be about her.

Edited May 6, 2015 by TanyaKay

[NoWayOut]

Maybe Felicity somehow finds a way to get rid of the virus but has to expose herself to it in order to do that? 

Perhaps this is what EBR meant when she talked about what Felicity's willing to sacrifice, including herself.

[AyChihuahua]

"That got me so angry. It's been 3 weeks and they're already ready to give up on him. Where are the people who tranq'd him so he wouldn't hand himself over to Slade? Or who worked at his side and saw his scars both physical and mental for the past three years, who saw what he overcame for 5 years to return to SC? Shouldn't they have more faith in him? I would've thought so. I mean, we the audience seem to have more faith/doubt in the effectiveness of Ra's brainwashing techniques than the people who know and love him best. Stupid writers and their need to adopt the stupidest reasons to further their stupid plot."

 

I had such a big debate about that on this very thread before the last episode, that previews for the last episode made it seem like they were just giving up on him and throwing him an informal wake, and I was so mad.  I would be all "I was right, they did pretty much give up on him," except that I'm so over this season, and even pretty much over Oliver now, that I just don't have the energy to be angry at them on his behalf.

 

"That would give Oliver a reason to be in CC for the Flash ep, and then Ra's tries to destroy SC by other means in the finale?

 

Maybe Felicity somehow finds a way to get rid of the virus but has to expose herself to it in order to do that?"

 

Good idea, because we know there is fighting in the streets in the final episode, which there wouldn't really be if there was some terrible virus there.  Maybe that's the cliffhanger...she's infected, and Oliver has to get her to CC for Caitlin to cure? 

[apinknightmare]

Ugh... so maybe tonite's ep. ends with Felicity, Diggle, Laurel, Tatsu, Maseo, Ray and nameless assassins collapsed all over Nanda Parbat, while Ra's, Oliver and Nyssa escape in the jet.  Oliver leaving his friends behind like that would be difficult to forgive (irredeemable).

 

I wonder how this would work though. Does no one check to see if they still have the vial? Did they switch it out with a fake one? Why would Oliver get on a jet to spread the virus if there is no virus because TA already unleashed it?

[tv echo]

They would be getting on the jet to escape the virus which was unleashed on Nanda Parbat (the contaminated area).

 

But I really don't think this is what will happen.  It would make Oliver both callous and cowardly.

Edited May 6, 2015 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

They would be getting on the jet to escape the virus which was unleashed on Nanda Parbat (the contaminated area).

 

Ah, yeah, haha. Good point.

[Starfish35]

@Sandwood: Will Quentin Lance be in this episode? Will he reconciliate with Laurel before the final episode?

Unfortunately, there's no Quentin (Paul Blackthorne) in tonight's episode. And we hear his trust issues with Laurel are going to continue past this season's finale.

Huh. I'd have put money on Quentin dying in the finale. Guess it's a good thing I'm not a betting person. ;)

[jay741982]

Yeah, I was just thinking that. I posted it a couple of comments above. I wonder if that's how Felicity is key - she disposes of the virus, but has to expose herself to it in order to do that. They'll probably end the ep with blood coming out of her mouth like with Akio.

Or she will Collapse or Something like that :(

[statsgirl]

I still don't understand why Nyssa wouldn't have hidden the real virus in Starling City and put a fake one in her staff if she didn't want Ra's getting hold of it.  Why steal it only to put it someplace he can get at it?

[apinknightmare]

I still don't understand why Nyssa wouldn't have hidden the real virus in Starling City and put a fake one in her staff if she didn't want Ra's getting hold of it.  Why steal it only to put it someplace he can get at it?

 

I know, that's incredibly stupid. 

 

Or...maybe Felicity brought the one Nyssa took to Starling with her to wipe out NP? 

[jay741982]

I hated Laurel's presence in that scene. I mean last week, she was willing to let Lyla stay kidnapped with LoA/Al Sah-him in order to save her 3 weeks old BFF Nyssa and this week she is judging Felicity to still having faith in a man she loves and who has done so much for everyone, esp Laurel herself. What a really horrible person. For most times, I switch my brains off when they put Laurel in a scene and I do not notice much but I absolutely loathe it when she had the gall to mock Felicity for her faith in Oliver.

Someone needs to tell Laurel that people who actually love are like that. Not that she would not know what it is considering she never really loved anyone. Neither Tommy or Oliver or even her sister. Everything always had to be about her.

Yeah Laurel acting like that towards Felicity pissed me off. I'm thinking Bitch she loves Oliver and knows him better than you ever did.

[tv echo]

Here's a completely insane idea - Felicity or Diggle is exposed to the deadly virus and, dying, crawls into the Lazarus Pit (virus mixes with LP water)... and emerges as a new DC superhero!  Or wait - Ray is the one who does this... and emerges with the ability to shrink!

 

Yeah, I know MG has already said that Felicity and Diggle won't be turning into costumed superheroes, but my brain is fried at this point, trying to figure out where this season is going to end up.

Edited May 6, 2015 by tv echo

[calliope1975]

I'm just glad this season has been spoiled to high heaven. If I had walked into this season blind, I probably would have thrown something large and heavy at my TV. Skipping episodes saved my sanity.

I'm down with Felicity exposing herself to the virus to save people. She's always been self sacrificing. My girl's a big damn hero.

Don't care if Ra's is evil, this sham of a wedding will never be anything other than gross and homophobic. MG can save his breath trying to justify this Batman ripoff. Not a good look.