Spoiler Discussion Thread

[ban1o]

Ok the glimpses in this promo are way to short fast to tell and this question is probably stupid but is the guy in the ski mask holding a gun Diggle  (at like 8 seconds)?? 

Edited January 8, 2015 by ban1o

[jay741982]

I'm going to be mad cause MG expects the fans to believe that Diggle Roy and Felicity would take Malcolm at his word that's Oliver is Dead with no Body no proof besides a sword with blood on it

[Password]

I'm pretty excited to see team Arrow mourn Oliver. That probably sounds weird but the dramatic inhale and Diggle's 'I don't know what we do now' made me go YAAAAAAAS.

...WTF is Ray doing? I really thought we wouldn't see his ATOM suit but that ish looks ready to go.

[Chaser]

*Shrug* Lots of action. Not so much emotion. Totally agree about the music being weird. I'm underwhelmed by it; if I was on the fence about the episode it wouldn't push me over. I hope the extended is better.

 

The way Malcolm says "Oliver Queen is Dead" amuses me. I'm curious to see how it plays in the scene, because the delivery in promo seems a little….jokey dramatic and not serious dramatic. Especially the breath he takes...I can't even describe it properly. 

[ban1o]

I'm going to be mad cause MG expects the fans to believe that Diggle Roy and Felicity would take Malcolm at his word that's Oliver is Dead with no Body no proof besides a sword with blood on it

haha this has been discussed so much :P I  do kinda agree that Malcolm is a lying liar who lies and they  shouldn't really believe him but I can kinda understand that they believe Oliver is dead.  They KNOW he went to fight Ra's who is a leader of a group of expert assassins. Oliver barely has any experience with sword fighting from what I've seen. Also if they don't hear from Oliver after a long time the they will probably start to believe it.

Also who knows? Maybe Malcolm has other "proof"

[Carrie Ann]

I agree with others here that that promo was lackluster because there's too much they're trying to keep under wraps for now. Felicity's inhale looked more like "Here we go again" exasperation than any sort of emotional upheaval, but like everything else in the promo, it goes by too fast to really judge anything. I just kind of wish they'd gone with something sort of moody--just shots of people's faces and solemn music. But maybe they are trying to steer away from the feeling that 3B is going to be as dour and grim as 3A. Ha. Ugh. Try not killing off two major characters every few weeks, see if that helps.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[ban1o]

. But maybe they are trying to steer away from the feeling that 3B is going to be as dour and grim as 3A. 

lmao. Everyone knows the best way to make things less grim is to "kill off" the main character. 

Edited January 8, 2015 by ban1o

[Chaser]

Saw a gif of Diggle's line "I don't know what happens next." He is saying it to Laurel. That is their epic scene. 

 

I have a new theory about the scene and I don't like it. I'm thinking its towards that end of the episode. In his grief, he is expressing doubts about continuing without Oliver and thinking about leaving the mission. Laurel takes this as her queue to suit up at the end of the episode. That's why they keep mentioning the Diggle/Laurel; it pushes Laurel to Black Canary.

Edited January 8, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Genki]

*Shrug* Lots of action. Not so much emotion. Totally agree about the music being weird. I'm underwhelmed by it; if I was on the fence about the episode it wouldn't push me over. I hope the extended is better.

 

The way Malcolm says "Oliver Queen is Dead" amuses me. I'm curious to see how it plays in the scene, because the delivery in promo seems a little….jokey dramatic and not serious dramatic. Especially the breath he takes...I can't even describe it properly. 

 

I noticed it too, but out of everyone in the clip, I kinda think Malcolm was the most emotional of all. 

 

Also agree with @Carrie Ann Felicty's was not projecting sadness. 

 

Maybe Malcolm brings back Coma-Oliver and states "Oliver Queen is dead" as a plan to prevent the LOA from finishing him off.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Genki

[ban1o]

Nevermind

Edited January 8, 2015 by ban1o

[Ariah]

Well, it's really difficult to say if anyone's projecting sadness from 0,2 sec clip, even if it's been giffed and prolonged, it's still a cut from a larger scene.

 

Having said that, I don't get either epicness or misery from the trailer - apart from this one scene, when the lights go out. But if it's true that Team Arrow goes dark and gets back to work because Laurel dons the buckles and shames them into fighting for their city, I will seriously consider watching American Idol instead. Or any other reality show.

Because nothing infuriates me more than making an established character dumb in order to prop a character with zero personality (hey, I've been recently trying to write a fanfiction piece and came to Laurel. I seriously don't know how to write her.)

[chaos is welcome]

Ok the glimpses in this promo are way to short fast to tell and this question is probably stupid but is the guy in the ski mask holding a gun Diggle  (at like 8 seconds)?? 

i think that's flashback oliver, there is writing on something in the shot that is Chinese, I think.

I have never been less excited by a promo.  

 

Saw a gif of Diggle's line "I don't know what happens next." He is saying it to Laurel. That is their epic scene. 

 

I have a new theory about the scene and I don't like it. I'm thinking its towards that end of the episode. In his grief, he is expressing doubts about continuing without Oliver and thinking about leaving the mission. Laurel takes this as her queue to suit up at the end of the episode. That's why they keep mentioning the Diggle/Laurel; it pushes Laurel to Black Canary.

"But what now? WHAT ABOUT FINDING SARA'S KILLER" 

Oh lord you are probably right.  They are in love with that scene and it makes sense that this is the reason why. 

[tv echo]

In that promo, we see Laurel as the BC kicking someone with her leg.  But we've never seen Laurel train to fight with her legs or even do any conditioning to build up strength in her legs.  We've only ever seen her build up her shoulder and arm muscles.  So realistically if she kicked someone with her leg, she'd likely hurt her leg and not have the leg strength to make a dent in that guy.  Anyway, nothing in that promo makes me want to watch Ep. 310.

 

I think someone suggested this once - that Sin would be the more logical successor to Sara as the Black Canary.  She was kinda Sara's protege.  Sin is still young enough to be trainable into a believable martial artist, and she doesn't have a full-time job to distract her from training.  She has no real ties to Starling City.  She has no trust or respect for the authorities or the justice system.  I could see her being willing to join the LOA in order either to avenge Sara's death or get the needed training so that she'll never be a victim.  I could see Nyssa taking Sin under her wing.  Unfortunately, I don't think the EPs will go that route.  Most likely, Guggenheim will have Laurel undergo martial arts training during the summer hiatus and return next season magically transformed into an expert martial artist.  Worse, maybe he'll have Nyssa or Ra's(!) take an interest in high-maintenance Laurel for some ludicrous reason and train her, but for some contrived reason, don't force her to leave the city and join the LOA as an assassin.

[Angel12d]

Count me in as underwhelmed by that promo, although I don't ever judge things by promos anyway so it doesn't bother me. They can't really give much away in 20 seconds tbh. 

 

That said, I've not been hooked by Laurel's BC arc (when they easily could have hooked me, I never hated Laurel, I just hate the way she's written most of the time and KC makes some questionable acting decisions but I was there to be convinced) and I can't stand Ray so I pretty much don't care what's going to happen the next few episodes, especially as the reason I watch Arrow isn't even there.

[Password]

That promo just seemed inappropriate. I thought the music they used during Oliver's death would've been good so the music they chose was jarring right away.

I pretty much blanked on that entire promo except for Felicity and Diggle's reaction. I look forward to the episode because of team Arrow, everything else just seemed inappropriate considering Oliver died. If Ray is blowing crap up I'm here for that, although considering he wants to save the city that seems counter productive. Is he a villain or a hero? I shouldn't STILL be asking this question.

I don't care about Laurel or Brick or whoever so, yeah I just blanked on anything other than team Arrow.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Limbo

[ostentatious]

Oh man, if it's LAUREL putting the idea to DIG and not the other way around then yep, the writers hate her character and want me to hate her too. Laurel should be the one who doesn't think she has anything to contribute and Dig should be recruiting her because she is a woman in the know who fits BC stature and isn't needed on headset, and they want to give the illusion that Sara is patrolling with Oliver.

If it is once again Laurel forcing her way in....

[apinknightmare]

Saw a gif of Diggle's line "I don't know what happens next." He is saying it to Laurel. That is their epic scene. 

 

I have a new theory about the scene and I don't like it. I'm thinking its towards that end of the episode. In his grief, he is expressing doubts about continuing without Oliver and thinking about leaving the mission. Laurel takes this as her queue to suit up at the end of the episode. That's why they keep mentioning the Diggle/Laurel; it pushes Laurel to Black Canary.

 

I don't know about this - Diggle already expressed doubts about continuing with the mission - he said so to Oliver. I don't know why he'd be confiding in Laurel of all people. And Diggle didn't suit up as a vigilante, so him leaving the team wouldn't leave some void that Laurel could fill by buckling up and going out to fight crime. There's just too much unknown to even guess at this point. What do they tell her about Oliver? Do they tell her he's dead, or just that he's out of town? Does her buckling up have anything to do with that, or does it have something to do with Quentin or her "revenge?" If they tell her what happened to Oliver and why, do they tell her the whole story? Do they leave Thea out of it, and tell her Malcolm really is to blame? How rage-filled is she going to be when she finds out Nyssa and/or Oliver had a chance to kill him but didn't? Is she going to want to work with the team then? 

 

I'm guessing she is going to go out and try to be a hero since MG said she wasn't going to be very good at it, but that doesn't necessarily mean that's what initially compels her to buckle up, especially since we're apparently going to touch on all the bases of the superhero journey throughout this arc. Maybe she's trying to channel her rage? 

 

Either way, since this is supposed to be some epic emotional moment, I think the talk between Laurel and Diggle is going to be about what it's like to lose a sibling and want revenge and not be able to get it. That "I don't know what comes next," could very well be followed-up by "but we're going to keep doing what we do," and might not have anything to do with their "moment." I just don't think Laurel of all people is going to have to compel them to keep going - Roy told Oliver he gave his life meaning FFS - I don't think he's going to quit. And I doubt Felicity would let him go it alone. If she does wind up convincing them to carry on or whatever, someone's going to have to remove a shoe from my TV. 

Edited January 8, 2015 by apinknightmare

[jay741982]

I wouldn't be surprised if Guggenheim wrote in Diggle and Felicity quitting Team Arrow in grief over Oliver then have that Bitch Be the one who pulls them back in. He's a big Laurel fan it seems.

[Ariah]

The whole situation reminds me of the end of S2, when Oliver wanted to give himself up to Slade and Team Arrow sort of failed to stop him... Until Laurel came and asked them to try again (with a tranqualiser dart and a talk from Laurel in the Foundry). I know, I know - at that time I thought Laurel was just an afterthought, that she happened to stumble into the Foundry AFTER Team Arrow decided to put an end to Oliver's martyrdom escapade. But I guess it was the other way round - the Team decided to tranq Oliver once Laurel talked them into it...

(again: that's not the way I viewed the scenes the first time around, it's my interpretation after some of the talk here)

 

So it wouldn't be surprising and it wouldn't be against what has been done in the series before, to have the Team give up but have Laurel still fighting.

 

I'd very much preferred to have the Team go ballistic on Malcolm's fine ass. But that's not going to happen soon.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Ariah

[apinknightmare]

I wouldn't be surprised if Guggenheim wrote in Diggle and Felicity quitting Team Arrow in grief over Oliver then have that Bitch Be the one who pulls them back in. He's a big Laurel fan it seems.

 

It's not out of the realm of possibility, I just don't think there's anything to suggest that she does that. 

 

And I personally don't care about Laurel, but could we maybe just refer to her by name or Buckles or any other of the many good-natured/snarky nicknames people have given her instead of getting derogatory with it? Not trying to be a mod here, but we generally seem to be able to keep a good level of discourse when talking about her, and that makes this a more pleasant place to post. 

[chaos is welcome]

In that promo, we see Laurel as the BC kicking someone with her leg.  But we've never seen Laurel train to fight with her legs or even do any conditioning to build up strength in her legs.  We've only ever seen her build up her shoulder and arm muscles.  So realistically if she kicked someone with her leg, she'd likely hurt her leg and not have the leg strength to make a dent in that guy.  Anyway, nothing in that promo makes me want to watch Ep. 310.

 

I think someone suggested this once - that Sin would be the more logical successor to Sara as the Black Canary.  She was kinda Sara's protege.  Sin is still young enough to be trainable into a believable martial artist, and she doesn't have a full-time job to distract her from training.  She has no real ties to Starling City.  She has no trust or respect for the authorities or the justice system.  I could see her being willing to join the LOA in order either to avenge Sara's death or get the needed training so that she'll never be a victim.  I could see Nyssa taking Sin under her wing.  Unfortunately, I don't think the EPs will go that route.  Most likely, Guggenheim will have Laurel undergo martial arts training during the summer hiatus and return next season magically transformed into an expert martial artist.  Worse, maybe he'll have Nyssa or Ra's(!) take an interest in high-maintenance Laurel for some ludicrous reason and train her, but for some contrived reason, don't force her to leave the city and join the LOA as an assassin.

Did anyone notice that it looks like the thigh area of that BC person's legs are exposed?  

I wish it could be sin but I don't think Bex filmed until 12. 

[tv echo]

Oh man, if it's LAUREL putting the idea to DIG and not the other way around then yep, the writers hate her character and want me to hate her too. Laurel should be the one who doesn't think she has anything to contribute and Dig should be recruiting her because she is a woman in the know who fits BC stature and isn't needed on headset, and they want to give the illusion that Sara is patrolling with Oliver.

I think the EPs have to have it work this way because, with Oliver gone, they need to work Laurel into a leadership role on Team Arrow.  So she has to be the one to pull the team together (esp. since she would never follow someone else's orders).  Like Season 1 Oliver, Laurel has to be the one to convince Diggle and Felicity to join her mission and essentially become her team.  That way, when Oliver returns, she can be regarded as an equal co-leader with Oliver (even though she still can't fight worth a damn).  If Diggle is the one to pull the team together, then he would naturally be the leader.  I hope I'm wrong. though, and that Diggle does lead Team Arrow in Oliver's absence.  But it would be OOC at this point for Laurel to think she doesn't have anything to contribute.

 

There was an old BBC mini-series on Robin Hood starring Michael Praed.  At the end of the first season, Robin is killed and his gang falls apart.  The next season, someone else (Jason Connery) takes over as Robin Hood but that person has to first track down the old gang of merry men and convince them to join him in the fight again.  The leader is the one who pulls the team together.

 

To clarify, I wasn't suggesting that Sin was the BC in the promo.  It was just wishful thinking on what will never be.

Edited January 8, 2015 by tv echo

[chaos is welcome]

She's going to need her own team though, IMO, if they ever want me to watch again.  I also thing these new heroes in starling will need their own support/need to be self sufficient. B/c if Felicity has to help every dang hero out . . .  And Laurel mustering the rest of Team Arrow to arms will make me throw things at my TV. 

If they were smart they would use this to build a repore with Felicity/Laurel, but they will never do that for ?? Reasons. 

Edited January 8, 2015 by chaos is welcome

[apinknightmare]

I think the EPs have to have it work this way because, with Oliver gone, they need to work Laurel into a leadership role on Team Arrow.  So she has to be the one to pull the team together (esp. since she would never follow someone else's orders).  Like Season 1 Oliver, Laurel has to be the one to convince Diggle and Felicity to join her mission and essentially become her team.  That way, when Oliver returns, she can be regarded as an equal co-leader with Oliver (even though she still can't fight worth a damn).  If Diggle is the one to pull the team together, then he would naturally be the leader.  I hope I'm wrong. though, and that Diggle does lead Team Arrow in Oliver's absence.  But it would be OOC at this point for Laurel to think she doesn't have anything to contribute.

 

I really hope this isn't what happens. I see what you're saying, and I agree to an extent, but to me the only way that would ever work is if Laurel a) had some kind of actual fighting talent/expertise and b) had actually done some vigilante-ing prior to Oliver leaving. Roy doesn't even have the experience/gravitas to take on a leadership role, and he's been working with them for a year now. 

 

I totally expect her to believe she has something to contribute - I think it's in-character for her to believe she has more to contribute than she actually does. But it's another thing to try and take on a leadership role, and yet ANOTHER thing for the people who have been at this longer than she has to follow her. Please, just...no.

Edited January 8, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Ariah]

OK, crazy thought: we see in the promo Ray experimenting with his suit and a lot of sparks fly -> what if there is an accident and ray ends up in the ER, which makes Felicity freak out, because - you know - another man in her life (barf) almost died... Hence the two get closer?

 

I wouldn't be shocked with these writers.

 

As felicity's mind finds the worst possible ways to say things, the Arrow writers find the worst possible ways to present plot points and tv tropes :)

[apinknightmare]

OK, crazy thought: we see in the promo Ray experimenting with his suit and a lot of sparks fly -> what if there is an accident and ray ends up in the ER, which makes Felicity freak out, because - you know - another man in her life (barf) almost died... Hence the two get closer?

 

I wouldn't be shocked with these writers.

 

As felicity's mind finds the worst possible ways to say things, the Arrow writers find the worst possible ways to present plot points and tv tropes :)

 

 

Hopefully she freaks out because, hello, aren't you supposed to be some kind of genius? Everyone knows we don't work on our super suits without proper eye and/or skin protection, sir!

[dtissagirl]

If the Crazy Eyes scene is not an exact rip-off of Tony Stark testing the Iron Man propulsion system and exploding things and going "this wasn't supposed to happen" to Pepper, er, I mean Felicity, I'm gonna be REALLY surprised. Copycatters R Us is the Arrow motto.

Edited January 8, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Password]

I've been watching Iron Man and Avengers and for some reason was surprised at how alike Ray seems to Tony. Though I still call Ray Fony Starc.

If anything the difference is people acknowledge what a self centred prat Tony is whereas Felicity, currently our only point of reference is now endeared to Ray.

[apinknightmare]

If the Crazy Eyes scene is not an exact rip-off of Tony Stark testing the Iron Man propulsion system and exploding things and going "this wasn't supposed to happen" to Pepper, er, I mean Felicity, I'm gonna be REALLY surprisped. Copycatters R Us is the Arrow motto.

 

Excuse you, it's an HOMAGE. ;)

[tv echo]

Wait - isn't the Atom the DC counterpart to Marvel's Ant Man?   I never read the comics, but they seem to have the same shrinking ability.  I wonder if the Arrow EPs will have to change anything after the Ant Man movie comes out to avoid appearing like copycats.

[apinknightmare]

Wait - isn't the Atom the DC counterpart to Marvel's Ant Man?   I never read the comics, but they seem to have the same shrinking ability.  I wonder if the Arrow EPs will have to change anything after the Ant Man movie comes out to avoid appearing like copycats.

 

I thought they weren't going to shrink Ray? I think he's going to be more of an Iron Man type - his suit is going to be his power. I can't imagine they'd have a special effects budget that would have him in a suit AND shrinking.

[Chaser]

Can I hope that the reason Emily and Willa aren't on the panel is because they are filming together? Thats the only reason I will accept for their omission. 

 

I hate all this promotion for BR because with the lack of spoilers regrading Felicity makes me feel like she will be a supporting character in his story when it should be the other way around. 

 

I still think the Diggle/Laurel conversation plays a big part in BC. If possible, I am looking less forward to this scene.

 

Oliver is CW Bruce Wayne and Ray is CW Iron Man. 

[Morrigan2575]

They're filming on a Sunday?  Pretty sure that's not happening.

[KirkB]

Yes, comic wise the Atom is DC's equivalent of Ant-Man, but I wouldn't be surprised if CW went the easier, cheaper route and just gave Ray a powered suit ala Iron Man. Which is really annoying because it means they are staying stubbornly true to some comics (Laurel being BC) while messing around with others (not doing Atom right). 

Edited January 8, 2015 by KirkB

[apinknightmare]

A couple of days ago we were discussing the IMDB post with the "Nanda Parbat" synopsis and whether or not it was legit. Marc Guggenheim tweeted that it is "completely untrue," so...take from that what you will.

 

https://twitter.com/mguggenheim/status/553021449909198849

[Morrigan2575]

I always assumed it was a foiler, IMDb is user submitted and for some reason people love submitting false episode descriptions,  there were several last year.  I don't trust IMDb unless there's a source

[apinknightmare]

I always assumed it was a foiler, IMDb is user submitted and for some reason people love submitting false episode descriptions,  there were several last year.  I don't trust IMDb unless there's a source

 

Yeah, it never seemed real but since we did talk about it, I figured I'd post his tweet.

[jay741982]

The guy who asked him that also said keep up the good work stop lying to him if he was doing going work the Oliver less episodes would be more about Diggle Felicity and Thea, his Best friend, Love of his life and his sister not Ray Roy and Laurel.

[Ariah]

Yeah, it never seemed real but since we did talk about it, I figured I'd post his tweet.

 

wouldn't it be fun if it was actually true, but Trollenheim just said otherwise ;)

 

Then again, he would have said "maybe" if that was the case.

 

I'm still baffled how they're promoting the rest of the season as Oliver-less and expect good things. It's beyond my powers of comprehension.

[calliope1975]

I just have a bad feeling Diggle's going to be written OOC in his "epic" Laurel scene. I've hated how they've written Digg this season. I didn't like him telling Oliver to dump Roy or have him try to guilt Felicity because Oliver can't get his shit together, and I don't think Diggle of the past two seasons would have done either of those things. 

 

Sin is absolutely the logically next Black Canary, but logic isn't these guys strong suit. She has the motivation, probably a decent basis for skills, ties with Roy and Thea, and it would be a nice nod to Sara. 

 

Yeah, I wasn't impressed with the promo. It was weirdly unemotional. 

[statsgirl]

Maybe if Laurel fails as the Black Canary, Sin is their fallback with Sara dead..  Of course she would have to go to Nanda Parbat with Nyssa for training, which would free up Bex for her other acting roles but she's young enough and has the right personality for the character.  She's even in the comic books.

 

When Sin returns in ep 12, she could be shocked/angry/inspired to take a leap in Sara's footsteps.  Nyssa could take her away to Nanda Parbat for training, and she'd be waiting there in the wings to see how the audience reacts to Laurel's Buckle Canary.

 

I think the music was zippy and there was lots of action and little grieving because they want people who like the action/adventure show to tune in. "See, audience, even though Oliver is gone there's going to be lots of criminals and action still on.:"  They know that those of us who are looking for the emotional stuff will tune in anyway.

 

I rolled my eyes at "Darkness will take over" -- I've had enough of TDK parallels.

 

Digg was willing to leave the team when Sara was born but right now, it makes more sense to me if he, along with Felicity and Roy wanted to continue the crusade to honor Oliver.   Felicity could bring Ray into it when he suit is ready because they'll need the extra help.

 

And no, I don't want Laurel to be the one to talk them into continuing.  I think that would seal the deal on her being deadtome.

 

She is doing the finger thingy again :(

Why have a phoney gravestone when you can develop a twitch to remind you of your beloved?

 

 If she does wind up convincing them to carry on or whatever, someone's going to have to remove a shoe from my TV. 

And from mine.

 

 

I think the EPs have to have it work this way because, with Oliver gone, they need to work Laurel into a leadership role on Team Arrow.  So she has to be the one to pull the team together (esp. since she would never follow someone else's orders).  Like Season 1 Oliver, Laurel has to be the one to convince Diggle and Felicity to join her mission and essentially become her team.  That way, when Oliver returns, she can be regarded as an equal co-leader with Oliver (even though she still can't fight worth a damn).  If Diggle is the one to pull the team together, then he would naturally be the leader.  I hope I'm wrong. though, and that Diggle does lead Team Arrow in Oliver's absence.  But it would be OOC at this point for Laurel to think she doesn't have anything to contribute.

 

That makes so much sense. I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.

[jay741982]

No actually it don't make sense hence why a few of us so far have said we will throw things and hurl

[wingster55]

Can I hope that the reason Emily and Willa aren't on the panel is because they are filming together? Thats the only reason I will accept for their omission.

 

What panel? (And if it's mentioned on the previous page don't tell me to go there...I refuse!) 

[chaos is welcome]

TCAs . . . Stephen, David, Routh, Borrowman, KC are going, CH, and I think Nable.  But no EBR or Willa.

[wingster55]

Ah, ok.

Thanks 

[Velocity23]

What the hell is up with that music in 3x10 promo.

[wonderwall]

The music still sucks. 

 

Still not excited. 

 

Unfortunately, I'll still be watching.

Edited January 8, 2015 by wonderwall

[apinknightmare]

So is Oliver still alive when Malcolm (I'm assuming, since he got the sword) drags him to wherever? Otherwise what's the point of the blanket?

 

Yeah, music still sucks. I'll still be watching, haha.

[statsgirl]

At least there's a shot of Roy for "a hero rises".

[Velocity23]

Is Barrowman this tall?