Spoiler Discussion Thread

[ban1o]

Mm I'm watching the video attached to the IGN interview and Guggenheim says "[Laurel] is the least capable fighter of anyone who has worn a mask on the show, even people who haven't worn a mask, like Diggle or Lyla. A big thing is how can she be a hero without necessarily being a really good fighter"

 

Mmm the thing is  Laurel/Black Canary fans want her to become a good fighter. in the comics Black Canary is supposed to be one of the best fighters in the superhero world, not the least capable. I'm really wondering if anyone is going to like this storyline. 

[blixie]

 

I still think there was a question that prompted his statement:P

 

I think there must of been a question, but I still don't think the question was about Roy, but generally about 10-13 and it was an opportunity to make a point how it wasn't gonna be All About Laurel. Just Mostly. With Roy leading Team Arrow, just what we've all been  hanging on. 'kay G man.

[NumberCruncher]

So yet again MG misses the point re: episodes 10-12. It's not that the trilogy is going to be Laurel-centric, it's that Oliver is missing! And having the episodes be focused on Roy isn't a good trade-off either. Team Arrow isn't Team Arrow without its leader. I don't care about Roy or Laurel so yeah--nothing about these episodes sound all that appealing, Marc. Ugh.

[apinknightmare]

Question:

Why or what kind of fallout would there be between Felicity and Oliver about the Ray kiss?

Have I misunderstood? Seems Ray will apologise for the kiss and run and show her his grand idea, but why Oliver and Felicity?

 

Yeah, I thought the fallout would be between Ray and Felicity, not Oliver and Felicity. Seemed like as of the Flash part of the crossover he had decided to start letting her go - no sense in bringing up that kiss now.

[quarks]

Oliver and Thea could have aunts and uncles and cousins and that sort of thing. Since that's never been brought up on the show, though, even at Moira's funeral or when they were discussing QC assets, I've always assumed that references to Oliver's family now either means Thea and Walter or his Team Arrow family.

 

And heh, I totally called this Laurel walk back. I think the "Canaries" episode will have a lot of Laurel, but the other episodes, probably not as much as that "trilogy" statement was implying. They're definitely aware that she is not, shall we say, the most popular character on the show.  And I think they learned something from last season, where right after an episode that had fans all excited about Barry Allen, Deathstroke and the League of Assassins, the interviews said, "Great news, everyone! The next five episodes focus on LAUREL!" and the ratings plummeted.  So this season, they're switching that order around. How helpful that will be is an open question.  

 

 

[ostentatious]

Just read spec that Ra's kills Oliver and in a few months we see that Oliver woke up in a Lazarus Pit.

 

Which would probably make Stephen so happy, since it would mean he wouldn't have to spend so much time in the makeup trailer getting all those scars every time he has to do a shirtless scene.

 

And I assume Stephen means that Oliver will be addressing the Raylicity kiss to Felicity? I think the spoiler about Ray apologizing to Felicity is a separate thing from this, right? They're addressing it, but so are Oliver and Felicity.

 

I see it going something like:

 

Ray: OMG Felicity hey listen SO SORRY about that kiss--

Felicity: Oh that's okay Ray, no big deal.

Ray: Ok, but here's the thing: there's something I need you to know.

Felicity: OMG you're cheating on someone.

Ray: No no no. Not that. But I can't tell you. I have to show you.

 

(shows the suit design)

 

Later on:

 

Felicity: (intending to tell Oliver about Ray's plan) Oliver, we need to talk. It's about Ray.

Oliver: (assuming she's about to tell him that she's with Ray now) I don't want to talk about Ray, Felicity.

 

(Olicity level 9 ascendance BEGINS)

 

And Marc would've wanted the interviewer to give him the opportunity to claim that the eps aren't Laurel-centric, whether they are or aren't. If no question was forthcoming, he would definitely find a way to get that out there.

Edited December 10, 2014 by ostentatious

[SonofaBiscuit]

Yeah, I was wondering if Oliver really does die, and they use the Lazarus Pit on him.  I hope not.  The only one that I want to use the Lazarus Pit on is Sara.

[Password]

If the Lazarus Pit is used, do the users come out changed? And if they do is it positive or negative I'm terms of their character.

[ban1o]

.And heh, I totally called this Laurel walk back. I think the "Canaries" episode will have a lot of Laurel, but the other episodes, probably not as much as that "trilogy" statement was implying. They're definitely aware that she is not, shall we say, the most popular character on the show.  And I think they learned something from last season, where right after an episode that had fans all excited about Barry Allen, Deathstroke and the League of Assassins, the interviews said, "Great news, everyone! The next five episodes focus on LAUREL!" and the ratings plummeted.  So this season, they're switching that order around. How helpful that will be is an open question.  

Yeah I don't think The EPs are dumb. I don't think the episodes will be completely Laurel focused and they will certainly not market them that way.

[apinknightmare]

If the Lazarus Pit is used, do the users come out changed? And if they do is it positive or negative I'm terms of their character.

 

They go temporarily insane, don't they?

 

Too bad he'd be off screen during that time (if the time frame holds up). I'd be down for seeing some super-strength, shirtless, cray Oliver. 

[ban1o]

Yeah, I was wondering if Oliver really does die, and they use the Lazarus Pit on him.  I hope not.  The only one that I want to use the Lazarus Pit on is Sara.

I really don't think Lazarus pits exist in this universe. TBH although I read comics the Lazarus pit is one of my least favorite plot devices. And if they exist it will be like there are no stakes because anyone can come back to life. Also Lazarus pits usually make people crazy.

[blixie]

ZOMBIE TOMMY will guide him out of his post Lazarus Pit haze. Mmmhmm. 

 

I can't buy they've learned anything from last year because they've still clustered a group of episodes wiht a lot of Laurel Lance, right in the middle of the season, after what appears to be "cliffhanger" episode with the Big Bad and a major Olicity scene. I do find it amusing that their strategy re: story for Laurel is how best to "contain" the disease, attempting to wall it off into these mini-arc quadrilogies. The 'mistake' they need to learn from is how they choose to write Laurel in the worst way possible every year.

[Password]

Hmm crazy Oliver? He's normally so controlled. What would he be like crazy?

[Ariah]

OMG, their backtracking the BC Trilogy is hillarious!

 

(I wonder if they're reshooting some scenes? Maybe they're adding something? I don't know, pure speculation)

 

But the focus on Roy - well, maybe it's because he's popular with younger fangirls (?). I never saw the appeal, but who knows, he had the Teen Wolf stint. Or maybe the EP's are now trying the pool for reactions. See if their Roy hook works and if not, who else do they have?

 

Let me just say this: if you have to focus on a living Lance, take the one whose name starts with 'Q'.

[dtissagirl]

I can't buy they've learned anything from last year because they've still clustered a group of episodes wiht a lot of Laurel Lance, right in the middle of the season, after what appears to be "cliffhanger" episode with the Big Bad and a major Olicity scene. I do find it amusing that their strategy re: story for Laurel is how best to "contain" the disease, attempting to wall it off into these mini-arc quadrilogies. The 'mistake' they need to learn from is how they choose to write Laurel in the worst way possible every year.

 

I'm legit not ruling out they are clustering the Laurel-centric episodes in January/early February on purpose, because it's the one time of the season when it's all right to possibly lose viewers. I'm still wondering if this is network mandated, even. They need to deal with Laurel, so do it in January when the risk is minimal.

 

ETA: also, isn't Colton Haynes basically a network mandated presence on this show? He might actually be the good PR tool for when Oliver is MIA. Diggle and Felicity are good for the fans they already have, but you make enough noise about Roy online and maybe the entire Teen Wolf fandom will come.

Edited December 10, 2014 by dancingnancy

[ban1o]

OMG, their backtracking the BC Trilogy is hillarious!

 

(I wonder if they're reshooting some scenes? Maybe they're adding something? I don't know, pure speculation)

 

But the focus on Roy - well, maybe it's because he's popular with younger fangirls (?). I never saw the appeal, but who knows, he had the Teen Wolf stint. Or maybe the EP's are now trying the pool for reactions. See if their Roy hook works and if not, who else do they have?

 

surprisingly Colton has the most twitter and instagram followers out of anyone in the cast.  Like almost double the twitter followers of Stephen Amell. Probably  So I guess he's sorta popular lol? I don't think he'll attract that any body to watch though and I think the primary thing is that oliver is missing and I don't think people want to watch 3 Oliver light episodes, so it was weird to mention him.

 

Anyway I do wonder if everyone will think Oliver is dead and how Felicity and Diggle will react. Like what will Diggle be doing while Ollie is gone? He is Oliver's right hand man. Will he be focusing on Argus stuff or what. Will Felicity and Diggle continue to fill in for his place?

Edited December 10, 2014 by ban1o

[SonofaBiscuit]

I posted another Guggenheim interview in the Spoilers thread (comicbook.com) where he talks about the Lazarus Pit (wishy-washy answer, basically) and he also says this:

 

Now, some fans have been suspicious that as soon as you hear the more general "genetic markers" as opposed to a DNA strand, that the answer S.T.A.R. Labs gives Felicity might be misleading, especially on a show where Oliver, his sister and her father are all key players. Is that a fair assessment?

 

You know, I'll be honest: if you've set up as we have that we're going to conduct a DNA test on evidence, I don't know how else to write it. I don't know what other phrase to use, because that's what you look for in a DNA test.

 

Maybe it's just my experience on Law & Order or CSI, you know? I came up as a procedural writer, really, doing all of these cop shows. If you're being technically correct, you don't talk in terms of DNA, you talk in terms of genetic markers if you're conducting a proper DNA test. So [laughs] it's funny, I don't know how to explain.

 

It's possible you're reading more into what was supposed to be an attempt to be semi-legitimate as far as the science was concerned than some over-arching cleverness on our part.

 

 

So, huh??

[Velocity23]

I would say CH has the most followers from his Teen Wolf times. Not due to his time on Arrow.

[ban1o]

I posted another Guggenheim interview in the Spoilers thread (comicbook.com) where he talks about the Lazarus Pit (wishy-washy answer, basically) and he also says this:

 

 

So, huh??

loll can someone smart explain what he's saying to me? I'm kinda confused lol. So is he saying fans are reading too much into it and it has nothing to do with Thea? Or is he saying don't use real science to analyze it and it's all TV science?

I would say CH has the most followers from his Teen Wolf times. Not due to his time on Arrow.

yeah probably lol

Edited December 10, 2014 by ban1o

[Morrigan2575]

So, huh??

 

Is he saying that basically they're using the normal TV DNA/Science jargon and people shouldn't expect REAL science?

[blixie]

I can see Digg focusing on ARGUS/Suicide Squad stuff, and Felicity being caught up in Ray's ATOM deal, maybe as ways to cope with the lack of Oliver, and letting Roy/Laurel handle the Arrow Cave, because it's not really the Arrow Cave w/o The Arrow. Still that seems so unlikely they must at least be doing their parts however minimized.

 

In fact maybe Digg working with ARGUS Is how they find out Oliver is NOT dead and that Waller has Maseo/Tatsu on tap there.

 

 

Is he saying that basically they're using the normal TV DNA/Science jargon and people shouldn't expect REAL science?

 

I believe he is arguing both that he is technically using REAL science, but  you know don't hold him to a standard of technical REAL science. 

Edited December 10, 2014 by blixie

[SonofaBiscuit]

It sounds like he's saying that by expecting the writers to use actual real-life science, we're expecting too much?  Like we've thought about this more than they have.

[ban1o]

It sounds like he's saying that by expecting the writers to use actual real-life science, we're expecting too much?  Like we've thought about this more than they have.

but what does that mean in the grand scheme of things lol? Is it a misdirect, could it be someone related to him, was it planted? It's  seems like he's saying a lot without saying anything.

Edited December 10, 2014 by ban1o

[SonofaBiscuit]

but what does that mean in the gran scheme of things lol? Is it a misdirect, could it be someone related to him? It's  seems like he's saying a lot without saying anything.

 

I think that maybe that means that the evidence was planted, and that's the end of that (could I use the word "that" any more than I possibly did?). I guess we're reading too much into it by suspecting that the evidence will somehow link to Thea.  But I'm very confused by what he said, so...huh?

Edited December 10, 2014 by SonofaBiscuit

[Carrie Ann]

Question:

Why or what kind of fallout would there be between Felicity and Oliver about the Ray kiss?

Have I misunderstood? Seems Ray will apologise for the kiss and run and show her his grand idea, but why Oliver and Felicity?

 

When I watched the SA interview, it actually seemed to me that he wasn't really talking about "fallout" between Felicity and Oliver. He referenced it in a string of other things going on in 309 (Dinah Lance returning, Malcolm stuff, etc.), so while I suspect that there will be some reference to Ray with O/F, I do think the actual "fallout" was just referring to Ray and Felicity addressing what happened, in some manner similar to what others have speculated about here.

 

As far as the DNA markers question, I think MG might have just meant that they didn't mean to implicate so many other people by using that phrase. Just that that's how you refer to it. I'm not convinced that Thea will be implicated this episode, or at least not in this way. I think someone's framing Oliver himself here, and whatever Thea's involvement is, that's not the motivation to go fight Ra's al Ghul.

[apinknightmare]

I got that he was saying that by using the term "genetic markers" they're not trying to be tricky or use blanket terms to fool people about the science; they're legit looking at genetic markers and there isn't really any other term for him to use? 

[blixie]

Oh I absolutely took it as we're going to claim that a female half sibling's dna could be mistaken for Oliver's, even though with him she only share's a quarter of shared DNA material. And is female. Doh.

[apinknightmare]

Oh I absolutely took it as we're going to claim that a female half sibling's dna could be mistaken for Oliver's, even though with him she only share's a quarter of shared DNA material. And is female. Doh.

 

Didn't EBR or someone say in an interview (I think it was posted yesterday) that they accidentally stumble onto a breadcrumb while trying to researching something regarding the guilty party? So maybe by looking into the Oliver as the murderer situation, they accidentally come up with some legit evidence that actually links back to the killer? So maybe Thea is implicated, but not through that particular piece of DNA that they're looking at? Maybe it's legit?

Edited December 10, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Morrigan2575]

I still stand by my statement from yesterday, these guys are writing a TV Show, not a documentary or article in a Science/Medical journal.  The drama is what's important (to them) not the science or the tech or what have you.  

[Password]

I really don't think the Arrow writers put actual thought into these things. I'm fully prepared to not understand about the genetic markers thing. I mean we'll see how it pans out, but it will be glossed over because technical is not what Arrow is about. Ever.

[SonofaBiscuit]

So apparently Malcolm is in a scene up in the mountains as well (can't watch the video, so I don't know more than that).  Is his crazy ass going to be the key to Oliver's survival?  I would love to see Malcolm nursing Oliver back to health.

[Password]

Oh my word talk about crazy little family!! Oh now I need for this to happen.

[Carrie Ann]

“The look on Katie Cassidy’s face, when Laurel discovers her mom is back in town, perfectly encapsulates, ‘Oh, no. I’m in trouble now,'” Guggenheim shares with a chuckle.

 

Oh hahaha, wacky hijinks! My sister was murdered and I don't have the common decency to tell our parents and let them grieve, whatever will I do now?!

Edited December 10, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[quarks]

I don't think it matters to the CW where Colton Haynes' fanbase comes from, just that it's there, and (presumably) watching the show/buying episodes. It's probably also more fun to deal with a fanbase that at least doesn't seem to be complaining as much as other sections of the fandom :)

 

Regarding the DNA - look, these are more or less the same people who are writing what they call "science" over on Flash, so I think perhaps we should just go YAY that they've gotten the "hey, DNA can identify people" part right.

[Belinea]

So, I am not sure I have read all of the spoilers correctly but are they trying to tell me that Felicity will be with Ray from now on? Because even though I don't want Felicity to be sad, I don't really like Ray all that much. And I can't say that I'd look forward to F/R, Oliver being dead and the Laurel trilogy. That would be just too much. 

[blixie]

I just can't get the idea out of my head of Felicity putting 2 (genetic marker match for Oliver) and 2 (archer of unusual size) together and coming up with 5. If that happens it's going to bug. Hardcore.

 

 

The drama is what's important (to them) not the science or the tech or what have you.

Unfortunately for them I don't find Thea having killed Sara dramatically believable or interesting.

 

 

Oh hahaha, wacky hijinks! My sister was murdered and I don't have the common decency to tell our parents and let them grieve, whatever will I do now?!

 

C'mon, it's just like that time the Brady kids broke the lamp!

Edited December 10, 2014 by blixie

[Morrigan2575]

I really don't think the Arrow writers put actual thought into these things. I'm fully prepared to not understand about the genetic markers thing. I mean we'll see how it pans out, but it will be glossed over because technical is not what Arrow is about. Ever.

That's what I'm saying.  Look at what happened last season, the Moira Trial/Laurel stuff was a total joke.  We also had the Isabel taking over QC and oh noos, we're broke now, not to mention the fact that Ivo somehow managed to come up with a cure to the Mirakuru but couldn't actually create the Mirakuru (how does that work exactly).  I'm sure there's other stuff too, I know in S1 people were calling Felicity stupid for using Teraflop wrong (obviously that's a writer issue).

[ostentatious]

I think maybe this, from EBR:
 

 

She goes home and has night terrors, so why not have Ray Palmer leave with you?

 

May be *quite* specific to tonight. Like, after the ATOM suit scene, he actually does drive her home. Her place has been established now, as has the fact that he knows where it is.

 

Of course this would mean that Oliver would show up there, too. Oh man, somebody write me a fic before tonight that has him emerging from the shadows after Ray departs.

Edited December 10, 2014 by ostentatious

[Soulfire]

So apparently Malcolm is in a scene up in the mountains as well (can't watch the video, so I don't know more than that).  Is his crazy ass going to be the key to Oliver's survival?  I would love to see Malcolm nursing Oliver back to health.

 

The quality is lousy but you can still see Oliver and Ra's aren't alone on the mountain top...

 

[quarks]

May be *quite* specific to tonight. Like, after the ATOM suit scene, he actually does drive her home.

 

 

Or after learning about Oliver's fate, whatever that is, she turns to Ray. Grumble. I am prepared for this, but grumble.

[ban1o]

Mm that looks like Nyssa and Maseo. But I guess Malcolm could be there as well.

[dtissagirl]

The quality is lousy but you can still see Oliver and Ra's aren't alone on the mountain top...

 

 

Those are Nyssa and Maseo, I think, they were there in the promo stills.

 

Barrowman said his scene up in the mountains was gonna be shot at midnight. I don't think we got any night footage from the mountains in any promos?

 

Or after learning about Oliver's fate, whatever that is, she turns to Ray. Grumble. I am prepared for this, but grumble.

"Oliver is dead so I'm gonna have sex with Creepy because Oliver is dead." I mean, I do not in any way wanna watch that, or even think about that, for that matter, but Rebounding While Grieving, it's a thing I totally can see these writers going for. Crazy Eyes is Felicity's Sara, in a way.

 

Edited December 10, 2014 by dancingnancy

[apinknightmare]

Okay, so...where exactly does Dinah think Sara is most of the time? Does Sara pretend to be in Starling when her mom calls or what? I'm still not sure Laurel's going to tell them tonight, although I do think there's a distinct possibility she and Quentin tell Dinah she's with the LoA (although how she didn't have 50 million questions after that whole ordeal with Nyssa, I don't know. Or maybe she knew she was in the League but didn't know she went back? IDK)

[Morrigan2575]

I haven't read that interview but did Barrowman talk in present or past tense?  I guess I'm asking, do we know that he's not filming a scene now on a mountain top?  Maybe it's part of those flashbacks to when Malcolm joined the LOA?  Do he specify filming a scene for 309 on a mountain top?

Edited December 10, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[calliope1975]

OMG, their backtracking the BC Trilogy is hilarious

 

This is amazing. The EPs are the ones who put the 3 eps/Laurel arc out into the universe. I'm surprised that they are surprised viewers balked at that info. I love Team Arrow, but I love Team Arrow with Oliver, and I have no great desire to watch a show without him. But I am laughing at all this backtracking. 

 

As far as the 9/10 Olicity scene, I would love for that to happen, but my expectations are very low. TPTB love their hyperbole (Emmy winning scene with Laurel? No.) Even SA and I have disagreed on best. episode. ever. 

[dtissagirl]

I haven't read that interview but did Barrowman talk in present or past tense?  I guess I'm asking, do we know that he's not filming a scene now on a mountain top?  Maybe it's part of those flashbacks to when Malcolm joined the LOA?  Do he specify filming a scene for 309 on a mountain top?

 

It's from the set interview that happened on the last day of 309. He mentions he has one last scene of that episode to shoot at midnight that day, up in the mountains.

[Morrigan2575]

314 is called The Return

[NumberCruncher]

Well at least they're making it easy for everyone to know which episode to return to their regularly scheduled Arrow viewing, LOL.

[ban1o]

That's an interesting title. We know Oliver is back in 3x13 so it's not referring to Oliver's return, is it?

[Morrigan2575]

Funny but pretty sure The Return pertains to Slade coming back to Starling City.