Spoiler Discussion Thread

[SmallScreenDiva]

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

I mean, I'm certainly not watching for action where the stunt coordinator can't even be bothered to fake a good punch when he's directing an episode, haha. 

Like this?

I know that it's just a promo and maybe won't be used in actual ep, but for heaven's sake, in this day and age when fans GIF everything Arrow definitely needs to take a closer look at scenes it releases. This is just baaaaaaaadddddd. This and the BC statue at the end of a pier ready to be pooped on by birds ... it's like they want the fans to mock the show, smh.

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Like this?

Ha, yes. That's the scene I'm referring to. That an episode directed by the head stunt guy contains a shot like this is just...yeah. Hopefully it's in the garbage can by the time the episode airs. Please. 

[Guest]

OMG that's terrible. Haha. Yikes. And the stunt guy directing this makes it even worse. Wow.

[dtissagirl]

Considering Steve's nose is currently broken, I'm gonna assume punches are just gonna pass farther and farther away from his face as the show progresses.

Edited August 25, 2016 by dtissagirl

[statsgirl]

I honestly do not understand why they are so in love with BamBam's directing as opposed to Lexi Alexander, who is also a former World Karate and Kickboxing Champion.

 

Quote

David Rapaport: “The Vampire Diaries was on the air already, so we were sold as a three-hander between Stephen, Katie Cassidy, and Colin Donnell — a tripod if you will. That’s how we cast it and then the posters came out and Stephen was shirtless. First of all, we never saw him without his shirt on; I knew he was a physical guy, but I’d never seen him do stunts or anything like that and all of a sudden in the pilot, he’s doing his own stunts. He became famous for being shirtless. The poster was him shirtless and none of the other actors were on the poster, and as talented and amazing as they were, it became clear the show was about ‘The Arrow,’ so that really changed the concept for us because initially I saw it as more of an ensemble and cast it that way.”

I assume he didn't mean it that way but this sounds like they wanted a three-hander but then they saw SA shirtless on the poster and decided "Hey, this show should really only be about this guy.  Let's drop the other two."

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I assume he didn't mean it that way but this sounds like they wanted a three-hander but then they saw SA shirtless on the poster and decided "Hey, this show should really only be about this guy.  Let's drop the other two."

From what I remember when this has been discussed before, they initially sold the show as it being about Oliver/Laurel/Tommy but it became something different once they started filming. Unless I'm mistaken? I'm pretty sure this was talked about before and maybe I'm not remembering the details correctly. 

Edited August 25, 2016 by Guest

[statsgirl]

Yeah.  I can well imagine that the CW bought it based on the concept of a comic book show following the model of their hit, Vampire Diaries.,  And then  after they shot the pilot and had a look at what was on screen, they decided to make it Oliver-centric instead of a tripod.  (Maybe it was because the island story was more compelling, maybe it was because of the anti-chemistry between SA and KC.)

It's just that quote from Rapaport made it sound like the reason they decided to make it Oliver's story was because of the shirtless poster.

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, Angel12d said:

From what I remember when this has been discussed before, they initially sold the show as it being about Oliver/Laurel/Tommy but it became something different once they started filming. Unless I'm mistaken? I'm pretty sure this was talked about before and maybe I'm not remembering the details correctly. 

Yes, the original concet was a Love Triangle, trio pitch/sell.  They were pretty much trying for another The Vampire Diaries but once they filmed the pilot they realized (or the CW caught a clue) that the show shouldbe about Oliver's journey, not centered ona love triangle.

[Chaser]

I wonder when they decided on the switch. I don't remember getting a trio lead vibe from the promotion like I did when TVD came out.

[SmallScreenDiva]

My guess would be after they saw the pilot but before their showed it at SDCC. Sounds like they started retooling right after they watched that first ep and realized 1) Stephen can carry the show all by himself and 2) the main romance and love triangle were just not going to work. I didn't really see promotional material that featured Oliver, Laurel and Tommy.

[lemotomato]

9 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

My guess would be after they saw the pilot but before their showed it at SDCC. Sounds like they started retooling right after they watched that first ep and realized 1) Stephen can carry the show all by himself and 2) the main romance and love triangle were just not going to work. I didn't really see promotional material that featured Oliver, Laurel and Tommy.

I didn't follow the show much in season 1, but this promo has been mentioned as an example of the show playing up the Oliver-Tommy-Laurel angle back then

[statsgirl]

There's a lot of Oliver/Laurel there but poor Tommy is just in the background in a couple of scenes.

Maybe at that point, they realized the love triangle wasn't going to work but they still wanted to sell Olver/Laurel.  (possibly to get people to watch the show as they searched for another love interest for Oliver.)

[looptab]

That promo deserves to be brought up at least once a month. Bwahahah.

[Guest]

That promo seems like it's from a completely different show. OMG. Terrible. I definitely would not have tuned in had I seen that. Yikes.

I know they had to see out the love triangle until the end of the first season but I just assumed they decided to drop it once they saw zero chemistry between SA and KC. IDK.

[bijoux]

I love that promo. It's firmly in the so bad, it's good category. The Adventures of Ollie, the Wonder Douche.

[bijoux]

That's good. Although I fail to see why it's in the promo either.

[tarotx]

I bet it was shot for some weird transition, Bamford loves his transitions.

[apinknightmare]

1 hour ago, bijoux said:

That's good. Although I fail to see why it's in the promo either.

I feel better. 

And I think it's in the promo because the promo folks: 

[bijoux]

Oh, hell.mi bet you're right. I still haven't forgiven him for putting in a shithole in the background of Oliver and Felicity's vacation photo for a transition. Nor you, nameless prop person who failed to replace it for later episode(s)!

[quarks]

4 hours ago, Chaser said:

I wonder when they decided on the switch. I don't remember getting a trio lead vibe from the promotion like I did when TVD came out.

That's actually two different questions - when they decided on the switch (where the answer is, sometime before they wrote episode six and before they hired Jessica De Gouw to play Huntress), and when they bothered to tell the promo people about it.

[bethy]

Was Katie the only woman in that promo? Because there were several shots where I did not recognize her.

[apinknightmare]

23 minutes ago, bethy said:

Was Katie the only woman in that promo? Because there were several shots where I did not recognize her.

Yeah, she's the only woman in that promo.

[Tazmania]

2 hours ago, bethy said:

Was Katie the only woman in that promo? Because there were several shots where I did not recognize her.

Goes to show how much she has changed since then. Tbh, both Stephen and Katie Cassidy look different now than they did back when S1 filmed. David Ramsey and Emily Bett Rickards look similar despite hairstyle change almost every season in Emily's case. 

[Chaser]

I still wonder if KC had plastic surgery. 

[bethy]

It's probably the combo of dark hair and fuller face and peeking out from behind curtains that threw me off.

[kismet]

Seriously,  nothing has peaked my interest - even the draw of shirtlessness & Bratva is notworkworking. If anything im dancing with Apathy.

But that old trio promo finally got me excited for something.  It was so pitifully bad, but I loved every second. I wouldn't probably watch that show, but its the best Arrow promo I've seen this year. At least it stirred something in me.

[tv echo]

What I took from that old video promo, together with the 2012 EP interviews, is how much they downplayed the comic book superhero aspects of Arrow back then.  That's certainly changed now.

Edited August 26, 2016 by tv echo

[quarks]

At the time, the producers and the CW were trying to assure everyone that Arrow would be different than Smallville. Partly because many fans were very disappointed that Justin Hartley wasn't reprising his role as Oliver Queen, and partly because Arrow was different than Smallville, and they didn't want fans tuning in expecting another Smallville.

[dtissagirl]

35 minutes ago, quarks said:

At the time, the producers and the CW were trying to assure everyone that Arrow would be different than Smallville. Partly because many fans were very disappointed that Justin Hartley wasn't reprising his role as Oliver Queen, and partly because Arrow was different than Smallville, and they didn't want fans tuning in expecting another Smallville.

Also -- this time around they wanted legitimization for a superhero live-action property. I adore Smallville, it's forever my favorite superhero show ever, but nobody took that hot mess seriously. Not fans, not media, not industry. Arrow [and SHIELD] were the first attempts at legitimizing superhero as a TV genre, and they both made a VERY cautious tone choice to start off: to be as little superhero-y as possible.

Here's a question for you guys -- do you feel somewhat duped by Arrow, that they set up S1 from a no-superpowers standpoint and then reneged on it?

I ask because Arrow is really a super special unicorn in terms of set up they did in S1 that they reneged on. If we look at set up as a contract between story and audience, Arrow has breached quite a few contracts, and the weird thing is -- its audience did not care, because it kept watching. Arrow's audience accepted these breaches of contract.

And it's interesting because one breach of contract -- the fact that they set up the show as the true love story between Oliver and Laurel, and then IMMEDIATELY started going back on it was wildly accepted. Probably because that was a set up almost no one in the audience accepted. Viewers didn't sign that contract, so it was not only OK for the show to breach it, but it was widely seen as an improvement.

And that actually set up a precedent for the creatives -- from their POV, here's an audience that's willing to accept revisions on their viewer contract. And then they reneged on no-superpowers. And hey, the audience did leave a little bit in season 2B while this was happening, but then it came back significantly because of Barry -- the epitome of superpowers -- and it told the creatives that superpowers were accepted by Arrow's general audience.

And now, after 3 years of superpowers, they're trying once again re-write that viewer contract with this "back to basics" bullshit. Because they have an audience that has told them time and time again that it's willing to accept breaches of contract.

Edited August 26, 2016 by dtissagirl

[apinknightmare]

11 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Here's a question for you guys -- do you feel somewhat duped by Arrow, that they set up S1 from a no-superpowers standpoint and then reneged on it?

I don't feel duped about the superpowers, personally. I think it's interesting to see a regular guy go up against them. Not SUCH a fan of the Lazarus Pit, and full-on hate magic and time travel. I don't think Arrow should be affected by time travel at all, ever, except for maybe in crossover-like circumstances where Barry messes with the timeline and fixes it in-episode. And even in that case I think it was a one-and-done. Now anytime I see Barry I'll fully expect him to undo shit that's happened (not that he WILL, but I will be expecting it) - so the surprise is gone from it (not that him doing it during last season's crossover was all that surprising anyway).

Edited August 26, 2016 by apinknightmare

[quarks]

1 minute ago, dtissagirl said:

Here's a question for you guys -- do you feel somewhat duped by the Arrow, that they set up S1 from a no-superpowers standpoint and then reneged on it?

I ask because Arrow is really a super special unicorn in terms of set up they did in S1 that they reneged on. If we look at set up as a contract between story and audience, Arrow has breached quite a few contracts, and the weird thing is -- its audience did not care, because it kept watching. Arrow's audience accepted these breaches of contract.
 

Mildly so, yes.

It's interesting. Based on some Arrow panels at cons, I've found that Arrow viewers can be somewhat divided into two groups:

1) those that started watching in season one, and think that it's been struggling ever since episode 209 ("Three Ghosts") - the episode that officially brought in superpowers, not just with Barry Allen, but with Deathstroke and Roy.  At least some of these viewers dropped the show in season two.

2) those that started watching during/after season three, brought into the show by word of mouth or through Flash.  At least some of those that came through Flash and/or binge watched through Netflix struggled through the first nine episodes, then got completely hooked once the show got, and I quote, "Cool."

Admittedly, this is highly anecdotal and based on cons, which are not exactly representative of Arrow viewership. But I'd say that the breach of contract did lose Arrow some viewers - but adding superpowers brought other viewers in. 

It's one reason why I'm very interested to see what happens when Arrow (supposedly) returns to the no-superpowers roots this season and lets the other three shows do the superpower stuff. I think Arrow tends to be stronger when it focuses on non-superpowered, crime/vigilantism/justice issues - but I'm in group one. And I'm not sure how much Arrow really can focus on non-superpowered stuff, given that the shows have already announced that Felicity will be visiting Superpowered Team Flash in Flash 302, Oliver is chatting with the LoT crew in LoT 201, Supergirl is arriving in episode 508 and two former Arrow characters are zipping around time travelling. I guess we'll see.

[tv echo]

I wouldn't feel duped if the EPs genuinely wanted a superpowerless superhero show back when they debuted Arrow S1, but then the success of Arrow led naturally to Barry's debut, which in turn led to his own Flash spinoff.  However, the EPs were basically lying to us back then with all their superpowerless superhero show comments, since GB was secretly plotting to launch The Flash on Arrow from the beginning, so I do feel duped by that.  It's one thing if they reneged because of circumstances, and another thing if they always planned to renege and lied.

Btw, I just posted a new Collider interview with AK on page 193 of the Mind Your Surroundings thread in which AK admitted that S1 of Arrow wasn't all that, saying that Supergirl S1 "reminded us, a little bit, of Season 1 of Arrow. We knew there was a great show in there and, every once in awhile, we would make it great, but we didn’t know how to do it consistently yet. We really feel like this year, at least for us creatively, we’ve cracked the code and we’re coming out of the gate strong. It’s almost the same trajectory that we had on Arrow, where we started to figure it out towards the back half of Season 1, and we’re coming out of the gate really strong with Season 2. Season 1s are tough."

According to ScreenCrush, the reason that Arrow S1 wasn't all that is because there was too much soap opera and not enough superhero.

ETA: In the same Collider interview, AK also said: "As always, with any of these things, we’re never doing a direct adaptation of a specific comic book. We cherry pick the best parts and things that we love."

Edited August 26, 2016 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

I watched S1 very casually as it aired [I only started actively liking the show in S2], but I was always sort of expecting Arrow to get more super. I guess I figured -- this is a 5 year origin story, it starts human and it becomes superhuman as it goes. And in theory, Green Arrow is really perfect to be the regular guy thrown against superpowered beings and figuring out how to beat them with wits and brawn and terrible puns. And I'll cop to it, I like super stuff in general. I especially like ordinary people thrown into extraordinary circumstances. 

But where I think Arrow did terribly with super stuff is that it tried to match the gritty misery-porn tone to it. So instead of being FUN to watch a group of ordinary people going against supersoldiers/the LoA/immortal magic dudes, it became exhausting. I needed Team Arrow to not take any of that shit seriously, or at least to take it with a little bit of humor for it to work, but the creatives decided Arrow is ~a serious show~, and you just cannot be serious and deal with super stuff at the same time. It stops being entertaining.

Edited August 26, 2016 by dtissagirl

[quarks]

11 minutes ago, tv echo said:

  However, the EPs were basically lying to us back then with all their superpowerless superhero show comments, since GB was secretly plotting to launch The Flash on Arrow from the beginning, so I do feel duped by that.  It's one thing if they reneged because of circumstances, and another thing if they always planned to renege and lied.

 

 

I don't know that they were always planning on reneging, and lied. I think it was more that Berlanti saw how well the non-superpowered Nolan Batman films did, and tried to cash in on that with Arrow, and then later saw how well the Marvel superpowered superhero movies, with their crossover appearances, did, and tried to cash in on that, with Flash and this whole SUPER CROSSOVER WEEK HOW COOL.   

Plus, there's the added issue of WB and Time Warner looking at what Disney/Marvel is doing, and wanting similar success/revenue from their superhero properties. Arrow (and the other Arrowverse shows) aren't getting produced in a vacuum. 

[dtissagirl]

10 minutes ago, quarks said:

I think it was more that Berlanti saw how well the non-superpowered Nolan Batman films did, and tried to cash in on that with Arrow, and then later saw how well the Marvel superpowered superhero movies, with their crossover appearances, did, and tried to cash in on that, with Flash and this whole SUPER CROSSOVER WEEK HOW COOL.  

I'm pretty sure this is exactly what happened. I don't doubt Berlanti always wanted a Flash show, but there was NO FUCKING WAY the WB and the CW would give that show to him first. This was mid to late 2011, when pilots were being ordered. Flash would be too close to Smallville [the show nobody ever took seriously ever], and Avengers hadn't happened yet.

Arrow was both a safe choice and a DOABLE choice. Anti-hero one man army against the one percenters, loosely based on a comic book property. That could be done. It's no wonder how much the Arrow pilot script is ~derived from Nolan's Batman. The WB and DC Comics knew that worked for them. And this gives them a crime procedural type show, which, again, in 2011, was the default.

And then Avengers happened, and the entire pop culture acceptance of superheroes shifted. Superpowered superheroes weren't just a silly kid thing anymore. And WB/Berlanti saw the opportunity to test the waters and see how their already established audience would react to 1. superpowers and 2. Barry Allen. I mean, they didn't even introduce Barry as super, just as a guy who was aware of super stuff. But the response they got told them they could give him a superpowered show with a kinder tone than Arrow's.

[And then they fucked THAT up on Flash S2, but that's not my problem.]

[tv echo]

From Dec. 16, 2015 Kevin Smith interview with Andrew Kreisberg...

On how The Flash happened, AK: "Greg and I were working on the - It was right near Christmas, and Greg and I were working on an episode [of Arrow]. And he's just being really quiet, and I'm like, 'What are you thinking about?' And he said, ‘The whole reason I've done this is to do The Flash.'"

AK: "He just runs fast. But that - he was the one who did it. Um, you know, it really spoke to Greg. And - so he was like, 'I've - I -' - you know, so for all of our talk, every interview, like, 'there'll never be superpowers on Arrow, it's just not that kind of show,' Greg is like secretly plotting... I mean, episode 9 of Season 1 hadn't even aired yet, and he said, 'Here's what we're going to do.' Because the show was a hit at that point. He's like, ‘Next year, in episodes 8 and 9, we're going to introduce Barry Allen as the scientist. At the end of 9, he's going to be hit by lightning. Then we're going to do a Flash pilot. And in year 3 of Arrow, there'll be Arrow and Flash on at the same time.'"  
KS: "He called it. He's Nostradamus."  
AK: "He said all of that... And he's like, 'And we're going to write it together.' Okay!  And again, it was like, you know, how can this keep getting any better?" 

[dtissagirl]

That fits exactly with Avengers making Berlanti see that Flash could work on TV. Christmas 2012 is 8 months after Avengers hit theaters. During those months, pop culture finally accepted superheroes as a thing ALL grown ups, not just geeks, like to spend money in.

I get that the choice to advertise Arrow around that same time as "no superpowers ever" is shitty. But it's also kind of naive of us to take a marketing strategy at face value. From late 2011 when the Arrow pilot was ordered to October 2012 when Arrow premiered, the entire superhero zeitgeist shifted. Berlanti saw the opportunity to make his dream show, and to use his [then] current show as the launchpad. I honestly can't fault him for that.

And to be a little bit fair to the PR folk, they began talking about bringing Barry to S2 as soon as they could during the hiatus between S1 and S2.

[Chaser]

I understand them moving to super powers. It's not my personal taste for Arrow but I think that's because Arrow hasn't done it well. The first intro was promising with Barry (and his Team) but that was because it wasn't a super power take over. The contrasts of the characters and the shows worked well. After that it's gone downhill. I hated the Lazarus Pit and this Ras. They were poorly conceived and brought way to many logic fails to the shows. Then you had Sara and Ray. Their purpose in S3/S4 was not Arrow but a spinoff. It felt like it. Then you have DD. He was a big step up from Ras but I contribute that to NM. At a certain point, he became ridiculous for Arrow It was like they had to go big to play with The Flash and LOT's Big Bads. 

Its like every time Arrow played with Superpowers it was do to an external influence. I don't remember a time it actually felt like Arrow. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

2 hours ago, dtissagirl said:

Here's a question for you guys -- do you feel somewhat duped by Arrow, that they set up S1 from a no-superpowers standpoint and then reneged on it?

 A bit, a small bit, yeah. But I don't think I would be as pissed had the inclusion of superpowers/magic been entertaining. I think there was always a part of me that recognized Arrow would never stay the "grounded," superpower-free show it was originally advertised.

I think it was easy for me to accept the "contract" changes in Season 1 because they made the show better, IMO (pivot away from LOLiver, Oliver with Digg and Felicity as the team/partners). But it was when I felt that they started changing things again in Season 2 (focus on another mask/s other than Oliver, different partnership other than OTA) that I felt the show began struggling. 

Edited August 26, 2016 by SmallScreenDiva

[Morrigan2575]

Quote

Here's a question for you guys -- do you feel somewhat duped by Arrow, that they set up S1 from a no-superpowers standpoint and then reneged on it?

No because duped implies that they always intended for Arrow to morph into the Flashverse and that wasn't in the cards (initially).  I think Berlanti/AJK/MG had plans for a realistic/gritty/no powers vigilante shows. I think from the beginning their intent was to do a Nolanverse version of Green Arrow on TV.

I think outside factors influenced the change on Arrow. Some factors include Arrow's success, CWs willingness/desire for Flash spinoff, DC/WB seeing what Marvel/Disney managed with The Avengers and the whispers of Marvel's TV Universe.

In the end I don't feel duped but, I do feel disappointed that Arrow gas changed from that dark/gritty/realistic show about a street Vigilante to what it has become in S2-4.  

[tangerine95]

I did prefer the more realistic and grounded feel but I was okay with Arrow adding superpowers as long as it was done well. The mirakuru stuff in season  2 was kind  of superpowers and I thought it was handled pretty well and I didn't have a problem with the LP as long as they didn't overuse it.Metahumans showing up on arrow isn't my favorite but its happened just a few times so I was fine with that too. I think magic being added is what I really didn't like.DD's powers and the whole nuke the world thing felt way too big for arrow.

I liked Oliver having to figure out how to beat the ocasional metahuman or how to depower Slade because he had to come up with ways to do that while just using the skills he already had and the help of his team.With DD the whole magic tattoo and the power of positive thinking creating light magic to beat DD's dark magic was just dumb and boring imo. So think it's a matter of finding the type of superpower stuff that still at least kind of fits a show where a guy fights with a bow and arrow. 

The change from the earlier seasons that bothers me the most tho is the number of superheroes they added to the point that it now feels like anyone can easily become one if they want to.It really cheapens what they set up as what it takes to be a masked hero in earlier seasons and what Oliver went though to become one.Also it's pretty pointless since they waste all this time on half-assed training and development for the new masks only to eventually write them out,kill them off or send them to a different show which I'm guessing will happen with some of the newbies in season 5.

[Morrigan2575]

Is that a bullet hole in his suit?

[apinknightmare]

Looks like it. Either that or he just sneezed. 

[dtissagirl]

[DeadZeus]

So in one of the first few episodes Oliver is already gonna need rescueing... I mean he's obviously not phased by the punches but still...

On the superpower duped topic. I kinda hated it, loved the fact that Arrow was kinda "realistic" in it's world. But i embraced the magic however! I hated that it made Oliver useless unless he learned magic too instead of him triumphing by his own phyiscal skills.

Edited August 27, 2016 by DeadZeus

[way2interested]

Just now, DeadZeus said:

So in one of the first few episodes Oliver is already gonna need rescueing... I mean he's obviously not phased by the punches but still...

If it helps, some spoilers imply that he probably won't be rescued ("shout-out to the pilot," "I kill like 3/half a dozen guys in the premiere," etc.)

Edited August 27, 2016 by way2interested

[Morrigan2575]

25 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Yeah, i kind of think he's lying but, we'll see.

[Guest]

It's funny how that jelly donut spill is like the most perfect bullet wound. Impressive! ;P

[lemotomato]

It would be funny if we all assumed it was a bullet wound, but it really did turn out to be a jelly donut spill, like the peacock feather fake-out in the Constantine episode.

[apinknightmare]

 

Looks like he spilled three jelly donuts, haha.