Spoiler Discussion Thread

[lemotomato]

59 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Break Up, Hook Up or Make Up. 

They can't break up anymore and I doubt they would throw them a hook up.

Yep. I'm going with huge steps to Make Up. 

I feel like episode 5 is a bit early for make up, so I'm going with hook up, with backpedaling and awkwardness until they actually make up during the midseason finale or February sweeps. Why do you think a hookup is doubtful?

[arjumand]

23 minutes ago, kismet said:

Plus if they think Olicity slow burn is getting back to the basics of s1/s2, then I want the basics of just OTA in the lair and no additional masks beyond Roy or Thea. It's all of nothing. The least I should get for having to put up with all these newbies is a happy Olicity.

 

Yes, exactly! What the hell, MG? Does he think we didn't watch seasons 1 or 2? I think I'm most enraged about the terrible, terrible Madison McLaughlin (fake canary from last season) stinking up the joint. I mean, the five seconds she was in the trailer were already terrible.

Oh, I forgot. We're finally going to find out what Laurel asked Oliver in that weird scene where it looked like he killed her, or faked her death. Wooo. I haven't been sleeping because the suspense is too great.

I'm not even going into the whole Flashpoint and how asshole Barry changed things. I already had that rage stroke after I watched last season's Flash finale, which I only watched because I anticipated them pulling something that shitty.

[Happy Harpy]

Catching up with the news, too, and if the end of S4 had left me cautiously optimistic...I'm not impressed.

I'm weary of the artificial romantic drama and rivals coming between between Oliver and Felicity (my money is on the reporter as next female roadblock).

I want no stinkin' Team Arrow 3.0, 4.0 or 1000.0 which is how it feels at this point. I'm not looking forward to lots of newbies (at least they didn't axe my favorite characters/actors for them...yet, on Arrow) and less to lots of masked newbies; and I will stop watching again if Oliver is made incompetent as a vigilante/fighter in order to prop them, like he was in S4. I'm not looking forward to Oliver being an incompetent mayor, either; he doesn't need to be inept at his day job for it to conflict with his vigilante activities.

I don't watch the other DC shows, I won't watch the other DC shows so they can shove their "Barry's last stunt is going to affect Arrow" and their freaking three or four-way crossover for what should be an Arrow-only milestone where the sun doesn't shine. Love Barrowman but Malcolm is a mess of a character now, love N.McDonough but his character means magic so NO thanks, therefore the casting news about them made me roll my eyes. As for the KC news, it made me facepalm although I hope for her that whatever character she plays will be well-received on the other shows...I think she's a lost cause on Arrow since imo the number one issue was that she never gelled with the rest of the main cast, chemistry-wise.

Now, is Arrow a lost cause for me as a viewer? It will come down to OTA , of course. If the season is about Oliver, Diggle and Felicity coming together again, if OTA, every member of OTA, and every combination inside OTA get the good writing and airtime they deserve, I will probably accept the newbies better. I will accept a lot of crap, actually, if OTA is front and center.

If Oliver and Felicity being apart doesn't mean their imprisonment on LI's Island which would mean no OTA, if the writers remember at long last that people fell in love with them because they were partners and friends and if they find their way back to each other the way they did in S1-S2, I'll be OK with it.

If the time reset is used in the best interest of Arrow (like getting Moira back) instead of horribly like it was with the BMD (like messing up The Diggles) I will merely grumble on the principle of hating time travel on this particular show.

So there is potential for goodness and I will watch the season opener...but it will be make it or break it for me.

Edited July 25, 2016 by Happy Harpy

[looptab]

Rewatching that TVline video, it got me thinking that while, yes, the references to Felicity and Friends were funny, I mean, that's not an issue just for Felicity. None of them has any friends aside from each other, haha.

Maybe she meant it as a dig that she only has "romantic" scenes and relationships, rather than the show exploring Felicity and Diggle, or Lyla, or Thea, or even Laurel, as she once said?

Edited July 25, 2016 by looptab

[emarasmoak]

I didn't want this Flashpoint story or Barry's actions affecting Arrow...

...until I started thinking that maybe some of the permanent changes to the timeline could be good/ interesting ones, such as:

1) Sara Lance is the Black Canary in LOT/ Arrow in the present timeline. This would make sense with all the comments about a new costume for CL (and I would love it)

2) Felicity is the CEO of Palmer Tech (or Smoak Tech or Queen Consolidated or Queen Incorporated). Possibly the last one because of the future newspaper in S1 of Flash? This would make sense for S5 of Arrow

3) Oliver didn't propose during the BMD, so they were never engaged. This would make sense with the slow burn that has been mentioned to jbuffyangel

4) Roy was not outed as Arrow and is dating Thea

5) The LOA marriage never happened.

6) Tommy is back (he could even back as Dark Tommy). This would be awesome but wouldn't think that happen because CD's show

7) Moira is back.

8) Walter has regular contact with Oliver and Thea (and we can watch it)

9) Sin is back

10) Slade is free

11)  Isabel is alive.

12) The BMD never happened (or "William Clayton" never happened), or Oliver didn't lie.

13) Nyssa is still Ra's Al Ghul.

14) Malcom is still Ra's Al Ghul

15) Deadshot is alive

16) Captain Cold is alive and dating Sara

17) Nyssa is dating Sara

18) Ray never dated Felicity

19) Malcom has never been outed as Thea's father.

20) Oliver and Laurel were never together before the undertaking (or didn't kiss after Tommy's death)

There are infinite possibilities (good and bad)

I am cautiously optimist. I have chosen to believe that (1) is true, (2) is possible, and Felicity's boyfriend is Barry but this will not stick during the present timeline.

... of course they could be deciding that the sticking events after Flashpoint are thinks that I would hate. I don't really think that it would happen, but (10) Laurel Lance could be alive and BC/ BS, at which point I would stop watching the show. I think that this will not happen because the producers are saying repeatedly (including comments from MK's to jbuffyangel, that were accurate) that Laurel Lance will not be alive in the present timeline.

So many possibilities. Seriously, I would forgive Barry for everything if they give me (1)

[apinknightmare]

4 hours ago, Chaser said:

Break Up, Hook Up or Make Up. 

They can't break up anymore and I doubt they would throw them a hook up.

Yep. I'm going with huge steps to Make Up. 

I think we'll have a breakup with Felicity and her BF, and a desire to make up with Oliver, who will be moving toward a hook up with a new GF, reporter or whoever. And it'll be some kind of a repeat of Oliver walking in on Felicity and Ray in S3, only reversed, because this show really needs less romantic angst and drama, so I bet we'll get more of it. 

Unless Felicity's BF is Flashpoint Barry, then...I'm not sure how it goes, because I don't think that would last beyond a couple of eps. Maybe it's pretty much the same with Felicity wanting to make up with Oliver, but him seeming to move on. 

Or maybe for once they won't do the predictable thing, and it will be the beginning of a make up. (Laughing at myself for even thinking this is a possibility!)

[apinknightmare]

Putting on my hack writer hat, I'm going to venture a guess that if Felicity's BF isn't Flashpoint Barry, it's going to be the DA. 

It puts Felicity and boyfriend in Oliver's proximity since they'll both be at City Hall, and allows Oliver to actually see them as a couple for max angst (will Felicity bring new BF a surprise romantic lunch? Suspense!). It adds the tension of Oliver having to work with the dude and play nice, and then later we can have Raypoint, when we find out that DA actually has a vendetta against the Green Arrow/Oliver Queen, which makes for more tension because evil ex situations are pretty awkward. Except this time the dude doesn't electrocute poor Roy and get over it an ep later, he actually is legit murderous and stuff. 

[looptab]

LMAO. 

5 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

allows Oliver to actually see them as a couple for max angst (will Felicity bring new BF a surprise romantic lunch? Suspense!). It adds the tension of Oliver having to work with the dude and play nice,

So what Ray should have been? We only got to see that in 316, when Oliver got his super deep voice at PT. :/

Anyway, seriously, everyone keeps harping on Laura or BC not being treated as they deserve, being direspected, etc. But the only one who got screwed over and over again is poor Roy Harper, and nobody ever spares a thought for him. :(

Edited July 25, 2016 by looptab

[apinknightmare]

This is my favorite part:

Quote

Marc told me that he hopes people get more of a Season 1 or even a Season 2 vibe with Olicity. There’s going to be a lot more of Felicity’s awkward phrases.

Then I added, “And longing looks and tension?” Marc nodded, “Oh yes absolutely.” 

These two people were literally a step away from getting married. So of course this show is gonna be like, "the last two years of bullshit romantic angst we put you through? We're gonna pretend that never happened." 

And then they're probably gonna just...do it again, lmao. That's so Arrow!

[dtissagirl]

I just wanna know the exact moment when Guggenheim & Friends realized Arrow was gonna go longer than 5 seasons [duh], and they needed to stall O/F, because obvi that's the only possible way to write a romantic arc within an action/adventure property.

But was it before or after a whole marriage story arc that spanned SIXTEEN episodes of their fourth season?

[Sakura12]

Most tv writers use the Moonlighting curse to excuse their terrible over dramatic writing of couples. 

[kismet]

I think I liked Arrow better when all I had to breakdown was SA shirtless, a salmon ladder and some kickass action sequences. Oh how I miss those days.

[Morrigan2575]

13 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

What's going to happen is Felicity and BF are going to break up in 5x04, but she isn't going to tell anyone. And in 5x05, Oliver's going to tell her that he has a date with a new lady friend (Reporter? Someone yet to be cast?), and Felicity won't say anything. Angst, angst, angst, season 3 turned inside out, etc etc.

 

12 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Nooooooooooooo!  That's the exact opposite of what I want to happen! Why can't people act like adults.  I swear this show gave Roy/Thea the perfect relationship, 

I've had some time to think about it and, I really don't think they'll go there with the angst/pining. They've never really done that before, they usually ignore and backburner this stuff rather than make it all pining/angst all the time.  

You'll probably grt an episode or scene like 206 (Felicity over Oliver/Isabel) or 307 (Oliver over Felicity/Ray) but the prolonged angst and beating the audience down is unlikely with Arrow.

[apinknightmare]

5 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

 

I've had some time to think about it and, I really don't think they'll go there with the angst/pining. They've never really done that before, they usually ignore and backburner this stuff rather than make it all pining/angst all the time.  

You'll probably grt an episode or scene like 206 (Felicity over Oliver/Isabel) or 307 (Oliver over Felicity/Ray) but the prolonged angst and beating the audience down is unlikely with Arrow.

I meant pining and angst similar to S3 where we get an immediate reaction (like Oliver swiping everything off the table in anger), and then random uncomfortable moments (like whenever Oliver was around Ray and Felicity, along with the random convo about it, like at Digg's wedding, and all the other little moments it was weirdly brought up). I think it would wind up being a lot like season 3 was, romance wise. 

Happy to be wrong about it! I'm still working through a crack Flashpoint theory that B/F start dating in 2x10 that erases everything that's happened w/Oliver and Felicity and that's why they're trying to get back to S1/S2 status per MG. Because I enjoy wasting time on spec that will be wrong, haha. 

[DeadZeus]

Just hope OQ isn't always a dumbass and can be a voice of reason and wisdom to others. Instead of always doubting his own convictions.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I can't do season 3 angst all over again, LOL.

The idea that Barry is the boyfriend would work better for me, it would be less painful to watch, probably last two episodes and that's why I think it's unlikely to happen. I thought the way they talked about Felicity's appearance on the Flash and having the Barry/Felicity kiss in the promo was odd but it probably doesn't mean anything.

[Chaser]

6 hours ago, lemotomato said:

I feel like episode 5 is a bit early for make up, so I'm going with hook up, with backpedaling and awkwardness until they actually make up during the midseason finale or February sweeps. Why do you think a hookup is doubtful?

If it's apinknightmare's break up/hook up, I'm all for it. I don't see a hook up in the one night stand sense. That doesn't sound right to me. 

I wonder if when MG was talking about Olicity in that S1/S2 vibe, he was referring to their partnership. I will throw something if they acted like they never dated. 

Side note, Im really looking to the Olicity fight scene in Ep1. 

[Morrigan2575]

24 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I meant pining and angst similar to S3 where we get an immediate reaction (like Oliver swiping everything off the table in anger), and then random uncomfortable moments (like whenever Oliver was around Ray and Felicity, along with the random convo about it, like at Digg's wedding, and all the other little moments it was weirdly brought up). I think it would wind up being a lot like season 3 was, romance wise. 

Happy to be wrong about it! I'm still working through a crack Flashpoint theory that B/F start dating in 2x10 that erases everything that's happened w/Oliver and Felicity and that's why they're trying to get back to S1/S2 status per MG. Because I enjoy wasting time on spec that will be wrong, haha. 

I really didn't see them having that many awkward moments in S3. Of course i only watched 301, 305, 307, 308, 309, 317-319, 320, and 323

I didn't have issues with the wedding in 317 or Olicity interaction in 319. Of the episodes i watched 307 was the angstiest and even that wasn't that bad compared to some of the other crap I've seen on CW Shows.

Edited July 25, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[dtissagirl]

I think there's good chance that if the 12 year old dude from Blindspot is the boyfriend, it'll play much the same beats as if Barry is the boyfriend. Geeky puppy love of harmlessness with a rando that is the opposite of Oliver in every way.

[Chaser]

5 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I think there's good chance that if the 12 year old dude from Blindspot is the boyfriend, it'll play much the same beats as if Barry is the boyfriend. Geeky puppy love of harmlessness with a rando that is the opposite of Oliver in every way.

My hang up with that is we are supposed to meet the boyfriend in the premiere and this guy doesn't show up till the second episode. 

[apinknightmare]

7 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I really didn't see them having that many awkward moments in S3. Of course i only watched 301, 305, 307, 308, 309, 317-319, 320, and 323

I didn't have issues with the wedding in 317 or Olicity interaction in 319. Of the episodes i watched 307 was the angstiest and even that wasn't that bad compared to some of the other crap I've seen on CW Shows.

I never said they had a ton of awkward moments?

And I never mentioned having issues with any of the scenes I posted about. I was merely speculating that I thought we might be in for something similar if Felicity breaks up with her boyfriend around the 5th ep that's been mentioned so much. That Oliver might ask someone out on a date and Felicity might get wind of that right when she's getting ready to attempt a reconciliation, like what happened in Season 3, when he walked in on her kissing Ray. Then we'd probably get a few scenes where Felicity's around Oliver and the gf and there's tension, possibly followed weird mentions of O/F's relationship status or something, since their not being together was brought up multiple times, even when she was with Ray. 

Things very well may be different this time since I'm assuming no one is going to be claiming that they CAN'T have a relationship. So maybe it'll be great fun! Just preparing myself for the worst since I didn't find S3 relationship drama particularly enjoyable. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

I saw you guys discussed how long flashpoint might last..Chris Hayner just tweeted this about that:

I don't follow the Flash spoilers so I don't know if it's a reliable information.

[looptab]

Ok, seriously, then how does this stuff work? Will Felicity just randomly show up in CC?

I think my brain is going to explode.

[Midnight Lullaby]

She is going to visit her boyfriend. Hahahaha

[Morrigan2575]

7 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I never said they had a ton of awkward moments?

And I never mentioned having issues with any of the scenes I posted about. I was merely speculating that I thought we might be in for something similar if Felicity breaks up with her boyfriend around the 5th ep that's been mentioned so much. That Oliver might ask someone out on a date and Felicity might get wind of that right when she's getting ready to attempt a reconciliation, like what happened in Season 3, when he walked in on her kissing Ray. Then we'd probably get a few scenes where Felicity's around Oliver and the gf and there's tension, possibly followed weird mentions of O/F's relationship status or something, since their not being together was brought up multiple times, even when she was with Ray. 

Things very well may be different this time since I'm assuming no one is going to be claiming that they CAN'T have a relationship. So maybe it'll be great fun! Just preparing myself for the worst since I didn't find S3 relationship drama particularly enjoyable. 

I'm saying S3 wasn't that bad as far as awkward moments and angst went.  If S5 is similar to S2 or S3 levels where is was mostly back burnered except for 1 or 2 episodes where they actually bothered to address it, I won't have a problem.

What are you saying? 

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm saying S3 wasn't that bad as far as awkward moments and angst went.  If S5 is similar to S2 or S3 levels where is was mostly back burnered except for 1 or 2 episodes where they actually bothered to address it, I won't have a problem.

What are you saying? 

I'm saying I don't want anything at all like S3, because IMO it wasn't mostly backburnered and was tough to take. And I kind of feel like you're intentionally being obtuse to argue with me, so we can just agree to disagree, haha. 

[quarks]

43 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I just wanna know the exact moment when Guggenheim & Friends realized Arrow was gonna go longer than 5 seasons [duh], and they needed to stall O/F, because obvi that's the only possible way to write a romantic arc within an action/adventure property.

But was it before or after a whole marriage story arc that spanned SIXTEEN episodes of their fourth season?

I think the question wasn't so much whether Arrow would go longer than five seasons, but whether the CW would. For the first few seasons, everyone involved with Arrow was unwilling to discuss anything more than one season ahead, if that. That dialogue shifted - with Amell assuring fans that he's signed on for seven seasons and now MG saying whoops, we will be on for more than five seasons, we should probably think about planning for that, hmm - after the CW started signing the new agreements with affiliates. 

The Tribune affiliates didn't come aboard until January 2016, but the CW started to get the non-Tribune affiliates on board last fall, indicating that the CW could continue in some capacity at that point, so, to answer your question, presumably after the first couple of 4th season scripts were written/filmed. That said, my guess is that Arrow always planned to have some sort of breakup story in season four, because, television, and, because, Arrow. I think it's just the timing of the reunion that may have been changed - with the number of upcoming seasons of Arrow as just one factor in that timing shift.

[dtissagirl]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

Most tv writers use the Moonlighting curse to excuse their terrible over dramatic writing of couples. 

Guggenheim 100% believes the curse because he's invoked it in interviews, so, yeah. Will they/won't they is the only option they see in the Arrow room.

But my guess is network and studio also chimed in with the EPs. Normal practice to tell a show to stall its 'ship. What bugs me is you stall your 'ship before they spend 16 episodes on a marriage proposal storyline.

Stay weird, Arrow.

edit: posted before I saw @quarks post, yup, that explains how external business factors influenced it.

Edited July 25, 2016 by dtissagirl

[looptab]

2 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

But my guess is network and studio also chimed in with the EPs. Normal practice to tell a show to stall its 'ship. What bugs me is you stall your 'ship before they spend 16 episodes on a marriage proposal storyline.

They could have, but then they wouldn't be able to say stuff like "We'll see where the characters take us, if they get back with each other", so they went for it.

[dtissagirl]

This is guess work, but --

- I agree with @quarks that they always intended to break up O/F somewhere in the middle of S4.

- I also think it became an unmovable point in the writers room that the demon spawn had to be dealt with this season, because they've been dangling that shit since late S2.

- In typical Arrow fashion, because they suffer from premature storyline ejaculation, they thought giving O/F a marriage story arc in S4 was an awesome idea, so they mapped that out for 4A, and incorporated the BMD as the breakup beat in it.

- Except then the reality of Sweeps kicked in, and so they stretched the BMD garbage fire all the way to 415, AND THEN gave it a bonus episode a month later for lolz. Or possibly hazing the new writers they got for 416.

- I would bet [about 35 cents, but still] that they did have a plan to point O/F back towards each other in 420 [which they did], and then do something MORE with them in the following episodes, but this is when TPTB reached the decision that stalling tactics were back in place, so all we get is the symbolic standing together but apart in the finale.

- The question here is how long are they gonna stall from now on. Amell said something that caught my attention in one of the press room videos -- that this season feels "patient". My first thought was, "omg, have they found a cure for the premature storyline ejaculation?" Which, if so, then we get a full season of stalling. If not, it's what probably what @morrigan2575's been saying -- stall tactics in 5A, approach tactics mid-season, makeup in Feb Sweeps.

Edited July 25, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Chaser]

*Snort* Premature Storyline Ejaculation 

[Carrie Ann]

30 minutes ago, quarks said:

That said, my guess is that Arrow always planned to have some sort of breakup story in season four, because, television, and, because, Arrow. I think it's just the timing of the reunion that may have been changed - with the number of upcoming seasons of Arrow as just one factor in that timing shift.

One reason I lean toward this boyfriend situation being Flashpoint related--whether he's Barry or someone else--is because of the sort of odd and abrupt way the reconciliation story died off so close to the end of last season. I suspect that when breaking out the season-long story, they were planning to have them reunite, but once the larger EP group decided how far-reaching Flashpoint would be, I wonder whether that's when they decided how they wanted it to affect O/F this season. Had they reconciled, it would have been incredibly frustrating for O/F fans and non-fans alike to pull them apart again because of Flashpoint. But if they did want to return them to the S1/2 dynamic, and to give them more storytelling fuel to drag it out for even longer, then FP would be just the tool to do that.

So anyway, yeah, for now I lean pretty strongly toward the idea that in the new timeline, Oliver and Felicity were never together, but both have feelings for each other that have presumably continued to grow/deepen despite whatever other relationship(s) Felicity had/has. And Flashpoint will have erased their history since at least S3, but possibly since Barry visited in S2 (why would he have visited, given the changes to his life? not a clue, but he obviously did). Honestly, that plus the possibility of either fully reverting back to the original timeline or at least recapturing their memories of it, would be my ideal scenario w/r/t the new boyfriend. My worst-case scenario is basically what @apinknightmare suggested--that they're just going to redo S3 stalling/angst/avoidance.

[tv echo]

Spoilers from TVLine interview with Arrow cast and WM (Jul. 23, 2016)
(video posted by High Hopes on page 40 of Spoilers thread)

-- On the theme of S5, SA: "Back to basics... This is not by any means the last season of the show, but this is definitely the end of a chapter in the show. It was envisioned and pitched as a five-year journey for Oliver, and we're really focusing on the initial goal of the show, which is, we have to make Star City a better place to live. And, uh, that's what we're focusing on this year." 

-- On effect of Flashpoint, WM: "Um, it will have some impact, um, but you'll have to tune in to see what it actually is... It will have a big impact on the characters that it does have an impact on."

-- On rumor that Felicity's getting a new boyfriend ths season, EBR: "It is a true rumor. She steps on him pretty hot off the bat. You'll meet him pretty quickly." On how Oliver will react, SA (joking): "I think he'll be fine. I think he'll be fine. He'll hug a pillow pretty much like I'm hugging a pillow right now, but he'll do it in private... Or the opposite of that... We meet him in episode 1, he dies in Act 4."  EBR (joking): "Tragic... And Felicity cries and Oliver's there to cover the tears."  SA (joking): "'I don't know what happened! He got shot with an arrow in the head? Don't look at me!'" Other cast members were laughing during this exchange.

-- On how Oliver will react when he finds out he created the Big Bad, SA: "I mean, I feel Oliver will react the way he always reacts - he'll seek the advice of others and, uh, you know, be totally calm and not react violently at all... or whatever the opposite of that is."

-- EBR feels that Felicity's best friend is probably Curtis "because at this point we haven't met any of Felicity's friends at all" (nodding towards WM while everyone laughs), which is something that she's been asking for.  SA (joking): "Felicity's friends are hanging out with Diggle's parents."  Diggle: "He was hatched, wasn't he?"  SA: "And they're all in a house with Raisa, the maid."

[tv echo]

I totally missed that Oliver's new GA costume has long sleeves when I first watched the "Arrow Comic-Con 2016 Highlight Reel" (posted on page 40 of Spoilers thread), but then I read the following tweet:

What also annoys me about SA's interview comments is that he keeps saying that Oliver's alone and there's no team.  Uh no, there is a team - it just has two people in it. Last season, Oliver even said in 403 that he had Felicity as backup. So yes, he may be alone out in the field, but there's still a team.

Felicity's new boyfriend is probably just another way they're going back to S1 - he's like the new "Tommy" (the guy dating Oliver's girl).

BTW, I also watched a video (not posted) of a SDCC press roundtable interview with MG, as LoT EP (I think it was a Seat42F interview), where he said that Flashpoint will have no effect on Lot in the near term, but there will be some effect for some long term story that they're working on.  I wonder if he's referring to the four-show crossovers.

Edited July 25, 2016 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

36 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I'm saying I don't want anything at all like S3, because IMO it wasn't mostly backburnered and was tough to take. And I kind of feel like you're intentionally being obtuse to argue with me, so we can just agree to disagree, haha. 

I'm not arguing with you,  I'm not being obtuse (I'm assuming you meant deliberately obtuse and not just calling me an idiot).

The problem is (for me) that your posts were very confusing.   

I say  don't think S5 is going to be that bad because the show mostly back burners stuff like in S2 and S3 where there wasn't that much angst (IMO).

Then you say, something like i was talking about S3 angst when there was all these akward moments.

Then i reply I  didn't think S3 had a ton if awkward moments, i didn't see anything wrong in the wedding episode and i was fine with the episodes i watched.

You respond "I never said they had a ton of awkward moments?

And I never mentioned having issues with any of the scenes I posted about."

I'm sorry but that was very confusing to me.  

[looptab]

Another thought about FP, what if Felicity was never CEO of PalmerTech? What if she is still Oliver's secretary - but as Mayor?

Not that that'd be something I'm looking for, but it could explain what they've been saying about her  taking care of the mayoral stuff with Thea,  the absence of the PT set, and EBR and Echo saying that there's no PalmerTech in the first two episodes.

I don't know how Curtis would fit into that, though. Maybe they just recruit him because he has been playing Baby Vigilante like the other two newbies?

Edited July 25, 2016 by looptab

[tv echo]

Spoilers from Arrow panel at SDCC (Jul. 23, 2016)
(video posted by tv echo on page 40 of Spoilers thread)

-- On who was the mysterious guy at the end of the S5 trailer, MG: "Donald Trump... Uh, no, he's a new character. Um, he's our Big Bad for the year. We call him Prometheus. That said, before you're typing and blogging and everything, it's not the Grant Morrison-Howard Porter Prometheus from Justice League, just straight up. But the new character is someone who fits into the theme of legacy this year that is going to be driving all of our characters, quite frankly, including the Big Bad. So he is pretty badass and mean."

-- On the chances of seeing KC again, WM: "Well, we will definitely see her in 501 in our premiere of the season. And we have made a deal with her across Arrow, Flash and Legends, so Katie Cassidy is definitely not gone from this universe."

-- On Oliver being at war with two sides of himself and what excites SA going into S5 with this version of Oliver, SA: "Syndication? ... No, uh, I'm very excited because there was this one extreme of Oliver that we saw in season 1 and then a very reactionary version of Oliver that we saw in season 2 after the death of Tommy. And what we see now with Oliver is - we see an Oliver that understands that it's not just black and white, that there are shades of grey, and he's really back to the mission of first and foremost, the most important thing in my life is honoring what my father asked me to do, is protecting Star City, and I feel like that has - I've been saying all day today, this certainly, I don't think, is the last year of show, but it's definitely the end of a chapter.  And that is, this was conceived as a five-year journey, so Oliver both in the present and in the flashbacks - um, I feel like if we do this year right, we will have the ability to then start anew."

-- On what they're doing for the 100th episode, MG: "Well, you know, it's interesting, our 100th episode is 508. Turns out, 508 will be chapter 2 of our three-part crossover. So the 100th episode is going to be the middle part of the crossover. Uh, and then episode 9 is our midseason finale. So we're kinda designing things to be like a hundredth - two-episode hundredth episode celebration, the bigness of our mega crossover, and the bigness of our midseason finale. So it's actually timed kinda perfectly."

-- On what excites her about the version of Felicity going into S5 after everything she went through last season, EBR: "I'm excited to explore her story this year. The girl's gonna be dealing with a lot of bottled-up emotions, um, unfortunately. She's going to work through them. I think we're going to do them quite honestly. As a selfish point, I always like to play the comedy in those sort of things, but I don't think that would be totally if I just [unintelligible words] respectful of her journey coming out because she's holding onto this guilt of killing 10,000 people in the lesser of two evils. So yeah, she's going to be dealing with that and, uh, hopefully doing it with a smile, but I bet when she's alone, she's got some private tears going down."

-- On Quentin coming into S5, PB: "Lance is utterly miserable coming into season 5... Small demons haunting him. And, um, yeah, trying to pick up the pieces of lost family, his guilt and everything that's involved with that with Laurel, and no job. I think, somebody said that - when he picked up you (to EBR) and your dad that time, in the car - somebody said, 'oh look, Lance lost his job... He's an Uber driver now.'  And I think that's the future for Lance."

-- On Diggle at the start of S5, DR: "He's in Chechnya and he's an Uber driver... uh, he's not - he's not in Chechnya (others are laughing, and WH asked, "Why Chechnya?")... Cause he actually is in Chechnya. He actually is. Um, he's in Chechnya. He's with the Special Forces handling some business over there. He's still a man of two minds, uh, to a great degree. He, uh, misses the team, but he's still dealing with, uh, the tragic death of Black Canary, who he - obviously he blames himself for that. And, uh, why he pulled the trigger in killing his brother. He's still dealing with that. And we deal with that in a very very visceral way - there's a great scene we just shot with Diggle and how he deals with the death of his brother and his involvement with that. So he's very much at the beginning of the season a man of two minds. He's still conflicted about the events of season 5."

-- EK: "I think Curtis is just really like influenced by Green Arrow. You know, he really looks up to him and, you know, he really wants to get out there and help Star City as much as he can... And it's a struggle though."  MG: "Yeah, actually, we got some pretty big plans for Curtis, uh, specially with respect to this marriage... As you sorta saw, he is - he wants to become a vigilante and he wants to start fighting crime. At the same time, he's got this husband at home who is probably going to start to notice that he's coming home with all these bruises and cuts and... it's going to raise some questions... We're really looking forward to watching Curtis try to answer them."

-- WH: "Well, I think that, uh, Thea's definitely gone through a lot in the last obviously four seasons totalling. But in the last season, she went through everything from being drugged by her father again, being stuck in an ark, losing her basically pseudo sister, putting on a real cool costume but also being struck by this bloodlusty thing, killing people all the time and then stopping doing that, and holding a knife to a little girl's throat and realizing that it's not the bloodlust doing that to her, it was actually just her. So I think she just needs to take a step back for a second and realize what's going on in, like, her own psyche and maybe like do something that's like structurally good for her and maybe Star City, which is maybe helping out Ollie since he's Mayor.... I think, this year, she's going to be doing a lot of stuff, helping out Oliver like she has done like in the last season, but in a different way, since now he's not necessarily a Mayor moonlighting as a vigilante - as you guys so nicely wrote - he is a vigilante moonlighting as the Mayor at the moment. So someone's going to need to, uh, do some duties."

-- On Oliver as Mayor, SA: "What a garbage Mayor he is. He's terrible. And he's terrible because he is alone. There's no team. So all of his focus and all of his energy is going into being the Green Arrow, being a vigilante, trying to stop crime within the city.  And Thea is carrying all the water as Mayor, basically. And so, you know, I - he ran for Mayor and was, I guess, kind of elected for Mayor for excellent reasons, but, um, those reasons have gotten lost in the shuffle a little bit. So hopefully he rediscovers them because I really like the idea - I know that - you know, longtime fans of Green Arrow know what a politically inspired character Oliver Queen is. And he had a point of view, he had an ideology, and I think that all of those things would be very interesting to explore on the show. So he'll have to get his head out of his you-know-what and start working well with others - which probably will never happen. So I like the idea of him as Mayor. Very cool."

-- On status of Olicity at the start of S5, WM: "It's still a partnership. I mean, the way we left them in the bunker at the end of last season was somewhat ambiguous and we will kick them off in a similarly ambiguous state. That said, you will find out some more right around episode 5. And, you know, I think we're just going to let the characters kinda take us where they will." 

-- On whether SA and EBR like the "inbetweenness" of where the Olicity relationship is now, SA: "Very much so. We have a really dynamic scene in the premiere where we speak to each other as equals, as team members. Um, you know, I've always thought that Oliver's most important relationship in Arrow is his relationship to Star City and his love of that city. And that is the main objective at - at this time in his life. I think it's pretty clear that he - Oliver loves Felicity, but I don't know if that means they're going to be together. But I really like the scene that we had in the pilot. Emily and I like high-fived after because we were fired up."  EBR: "It sorta transformed. We didn't know it was going there and I feel like their - Felicity and Oliver's communication and collaberation aspects of themselves are just getting stronger as teammates and that's a good thing."

Edited July 25, 2016 by tv echo

[Guest]

Even though I'm more chill today, I still hate that they're clearly backtracking on O/F. But maybe if they're not actively writing for them, we'll get some good subtle stuff like s2. I think a lot of the time Olicity started because SA/EBR have such amazing chemistry and their moments came from things that weren't intentionally written as moments. It just kind of happened. If this is what will happen, then okay. I can deal.

I still can't believe they were like a week or so away from marriage and now Felicity is happily dating someone else. I'm just...what?

And no, sorry Jbuffyangel but I won't trust the writers. I have four seasons' worth of experience in watching this show. I'm not an idiot. My expectations are non existent at this point.

Edited July 25, 2016 by Guest

[dtissagirl]

I'm thinking if major things are altered on Arrow -- if previous story arcs are erased or changed in big ways -- then it's a set up for the crossover to "fix" it. If it's smaller changes that affect story going forward rather than change history, then it's permanent changes.

Question: is there a place where Flash spoilers are posted in an organized order? I'm feeling the need to read them, but I don't wanna do fandom, I just want the info.

[Jillibean]

Quote

I didn't want this Flashpoint story or Barry's actions affecting Arrow...

...until I started thinking that maybe some of the permanent changes to the timeline could be good/ interesting ones, such as:

Quote

I'm thinking if major things are altered on Arrow -- if previous story arcs are erased or changed in big ways -- then it's a set up for the crossover to "fix" it. If it's smaller changes that affect story going forward rather than change history, then it's permanent changes.

The thing that has confused me in reading about how Flashpoint will affect Arrow is that I would think there would have to be TWO resets. The first one at the beginning of the season to whatever changes they are going to have, but--and I'm not familiar with Flashpoint--I mean, eventually the Flashpoint is going to implode or Barry's going to have to reset it, right? They're not just going to have a new universe going forward that never reverts back to the original one. Certainly by the end of this season, I'd think. So whatever changes they make, even if they're cool, like Moira being alive or Sarah being BC or Roy being free to date Thea, will have to evaporate at some point. And that seems sort of wasteful, to invest time and character development into things that will cease to exist by the end of the season. Does that mean everyone's development this season will be lost because it's essentially in an alternate universe? I think they have to be VERY careful about this. I know it's a shared universe, but having something on one show that viewers might not watch significantly affect a second show that they do watch is a very risky move.  

[Midnight Lullaby]

When they intentionally wrote arcs for Oliver and Felicity we had Ray Palmer and the BMD. Maybe it's better if they let the characters "speak to them" if it's what they did in season 2. Whatever that means.

I'm curious to see in which way flashpoint is going to affect Arrow, especially Diggle and Felicity..I feel like they didn't want to give us much maybe because that is coming into play..

I also feel bad for those casual viewers that don't watch the Flash. I imagine they are going to show at the beginning of the episode what Barry did but still it might leave some people confused about it.

[tv echo]

17 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Question: is there a place where Flash spoilers are posted in an organized order? I'm feeling the need to read them, but I don't wanna do fandom, I just want the info.

You couldn't pay me to visit the Flash forum here.  

FYI, yesterday I posted a link to TVLine's summary of spoilers from the Flash panel at SDCC (but it's only from the panel and doesn't include any extra info that might be revealed in press interviews)...
http://tvline.com/2016/07/23/the-flash-season-3-sneak-peek-flashpoint-comic-con/

[tv echo]

Here's everything that I have so far on how Flashpoint is going to affect Arrow...

-- WM: "There will be some effects [from Flashpoint on the Arrow universe]. I can't tell you what, how big or how small, but there will. We will definitely honor that that is - that has happened. And there will be some characters that are more aff - more influenced or more impacted by it than others. And I definitely would say, you know, Felicity is going to be - she's going to be carrying something [unintelligible word] that through the season." (Video of Seat42F interview with WM, page 40 of Spoilers thread)

-- Per Flash EP, Todd Helbing, the Flashpoint storyline is “really affecting Arrow. You’ll see it on that side mostly,” rather than on LoT, noting that Oliver and Diggle, in particular, will be impacted. (TVLine article of Flash panel at SDCC, page 40 of Spoilers thread)

-- On effect of Flashpoint, WM: "Um, it will have some impact, um, but you'll have to tune in to see what it actually is... It will have a big impact on the characters that it does have an impact on." (Video of TVLine interview with Arrow cast and TVLine article, page 40 of Spoilers thread)

-- SA: "Flashpoint affects our show. And, uh, I can confirm that now... Flashpoint has affected the universe we live in. Something we explain and examine in the early part of the season, not necessarily on our show. And, uh, I believe it'll have lasting ramifications. I do. In very interesting ways." (Video of TVForTheRestOfUs interview with SA, page 40 of Spoilers thread)

-- Per SA, Flashpoint affects Arrow. SA: "It is explained early in the early part of the season, not necessarily on our show... And then we suddenly begin to [introduce?-unintelligible word] it. Suddenly. And then maybe not so suddenly." (I wasn't sure if he was saying "suddenly" or "subtly".) (Video of Nerdophiles interview with SA, page 40 of Spoilers thread)

-- Q: How will Diggle's re-enlisting affect his relationship with his friends and family when he gets back to Star City? DR: "Well, Flash paradox will have something to do, um, with some of Diggle's reality. If you've followed what's happened on Flash, he made some changes to the timeline. It will affect Diggle to some degree. ... So, how does it affect his family? Yes, it affects his family in a very, very personal way. There's a lot going with Diggle this season and, um, yes, it affects his family. Directly." (Video of DR on TV Guide Magazine's Fan Favorites panel at SDCC 2016, page 451 of Social Media thread)

-- Per DR, Flashpoint will affect Arrow.  (Video of Comicbook.com interview with DR at SDCC, page 40 of Spoilers thread)

Edited July 25, 2016 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

26 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm not arguing with you,  I'm not being obtuse (I'm assuming you meant deliberately obtuse and not just calling me an idiot).

The problem is (for me) that your posts were very confusing.   

I say  don't think S5 is going to be that bad because the show mostly back burners stuff like in S2 and S3 where there wasn't that much angst (IMO).

Then you say, something like i was talking about S3 angst when there was all these akward moments.

Then i reply I  didn't think S3 had a ton if awkward moments, i didn't see anything wrong in the wedding episode and i was fine with the episodes i watched.

You respond "I never said they had a ton of awkward moments?

And I never mentioned having issues with any of the scenes I posted about."

I'm sorry but that was very confusing to me.  

 

I wrote that I thought you were "intentionally being obtuse," so no...I wasn't calling you an idiot. 

I think we're having this issue because you're responding to me without really reading what I wrote. I never wrote that they had a ton of awkward moments, I wrote that I thought we could possibly be in for a S3 rehash that would include some "uncomfortable" moments with the single person around the couple (which S3 *did* have), and some instances of O&F's relationship status being weirdly mentioned (because it was).

We don't really need to continue this convo, because we're clearly having communication issues, haha.  

[Belinea]

So, how much will Felicity's relationship with Oliver be affected by the Flash? Not at all? Maybe they have never been together or maybe she'll be Barry's girlfriend or she'll be a lesbian and in a relationship with Sara... 

Have I mentioned yet that I really don't care much for the Flash affecting Arrow in such a manner.... I think I have but unfortunately I can't change it. 

What bothers me as well is that at some point, Barry will probably change the universe again, right? 

Edited July 25, 2016 by Belinea

[dtissagirl]

I'm pretty confused about how the creatives and the media are using the "Flashpoint" nomenclature. In the comics, the flashpoint event encompasses Barry finding himself in a different reality, then getting alt.Batman and alt.super friends to help him "fix" it, but ooops, instead of going back to his original timeline, he accidentally creates a different THIRD timeline -- that resembles the original timeline, but with pointed specific differences.

This third new reality is NOT called "Flashpoint" [it's called New52!], but I feel like the Arrowverse is referring to it as Flashpoint? Words have meaning, folks.

Edited July 25, 2016 by dtissagirl

[tv echo]

In June, GG had tweeted that the title of The Flash S3 premiere is "Flashpoint," but that it would be their own version of the comics Flashpoint story. 

[looptab]

I'll try asking this again - I asked it earlier but  it probably got lost in the flux. Our Barry went back in time and created a new reality - his self that went back at the end of last season disappeared. Now, does he just stay there for the next 20 years? What happened to the little Barry that was whisked away from the house? Do they merge? 

[Starfish35]

7 minutes ago, looptab said:

I'll try asking this again - I asked it earlier but  it probably got lost in the flux. Our Barry went back in time and created a new reality - his self that went back at the end of last season disappeared. Now, does he just stay there for the next 20 years? What happened to the little Barry that was whisked away from the house? Do they merge? 

My guess - they'll address it the same way the Flashpoint movie did, i.e. not at all.  In the movie, Barry goes back in time accidentally.  He didn't start out intending to save his mom, like our Barry did.  And he suddenly wakes up in the present day and everything's changed.  

Now that I'm thinking about this more though....I think the theory is that once the change is made, original timeline!Barry merges into new timeline!Barry.  So his consciousness snaps back to where he started, but in the new timeline, with new memories.

Edited July 25, 2016 by Starfish35

[looptab]

1 minute ago, Starfish35 said:

My guess - they'll address it the same way the Flashpoint movie did, i.e. not at all.  In the movie, Barry goes back in time accidentally.  He didn't start out intending to save his mom, like our Barry did.  And he suddenly wakes up in the present day and everything's changed.  

So there's just one Barry - who has grown in the alternate reality, but has all his memories from the original one? Am I getting this right?