Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Password]

You know I wonder if this would've gone in the place of one of the Lance centric episodes in season 2. They decided to let it slide to season 3 because Laurel and Sara had to take the spotlight. I can't wait.

[Velocity23]

These writers really eat loads of sweets! 

Edited August 21, 2014 by Velocity23

[Velocity23]

Apparently there was a spoiler going around that the name of MamaSmoak is Stephanie, because it said so on IMDB. Turned out to be wrong.

 

http://www.greenarrowtv.com/do-we-have-a-name-for-felicitys-mother/18400

[Morrigan2575]

IMDb is user updated, I never trust it unless it's been confirmed by another source.

[Velocity23]

Lol yeah i still remember that somebody added Black Canary to the Laurel character. 

[Guest]

They actually said that last year as well.  In fact that was something SA and the EPs said repeatedly in the early S2 interviews.  That the EPs used S1 as a training bike and took what did work and focused on that and, then limited/got rid of the stuff that didn't work (which you can actually see in 201-209).  They also made comments in the interviews down towards the end of the season that they knew they made mistakes and had learned from them.  

 

One mistake MG mentioned was that they went too big in S2 and had too many story-lines going on and weren't able to do them justice when trying to wrap everything up for the finale. - S3 was supposed to be more "intimate" in answer to that, going back to smaller stories like in S1.

 

AK and MG have both mentioned mistakes with Laurel but we don't know what they think the mistakes were or what they're planning to do about it.  My guess is that they think the mistake was that Laurel didn't know the secret and that she wasn't BC (pretty sure AK said something to the effect of "everyone just wants her to be BC already").  So they're idea of fixing the issue might be to push her into to Team Arrow and make her Canary.

 

I'm curious about what the EP's felt was 'too big' about s2 because there was a middle run of episodes there that just felt like filler, especially during the flashbacks. I felt like a lot of time was wasted when it could have been exploring other things. They just need more focused writing. 

 

As for their mistakes with Laurel, the way they still talk about her having 'exciting things' coming in s3 that they have been building for 40 plus episodes makes me think they don't have the same ideas as us. The problem with Laurel is that she - the supposed female lead - became surplus to the show when she didn't click romantically with the male lead and then later when Sara was introduced as the Canary (sorry, I still call Sara BC and probably always will even though I'm told there's supposed to be a distinction). I admit some of KC's acting choices have been crappy but on the whole it's the writing that has let that character down. I don't see how they're going to turn it around after 2 whole seasons. I'm interested to see if they do it though. 

[poetgirl925]

I guess Mama Smoak is going to have a recognizable DC name because I can't think of any other reason to keep it secret. It's not that big a deal if her last name is different from Felicity's. Lots of women and their children have different last names for various reasons - going back to the maiden name while kids use dad's name, remarrying, etc. And I really think Felicity Smoak is going to end up not being Felicity Smoak. Right now I am more curious about this and Thea's story than anything else.

[ban1o]

I'm probably the only who doesn't really care about Felicity's mom that much lol. Like I'm interested to know Felicity's backstory, but Felicity mom will probably appear 1 or 2 episodes at most like Laurel's mother. I'm not really that invested in her. 

[Starfish35]

Oh don't get me started on Laurel's mother. The way they've wasted Alex Kingston in that role is criminal.

[ban1o]

Oh don't get me started on Laurel's mother. The way they've wasted Alex Kingston in that role is criminal.

yeah I remember how everyone was so hyped to see Alex Kingston as Dinah Lance and so outcome was pretty mediocre. I hope that they do Felicity's mom better but I doubt she'll be in more than 2 episodes. Shows like his don't really care about parental roles unless they are in the main cast and are directly involved in the plot. 

Edited August 21, 2014 by ban1o

[Guest]

I'm not bothered about meeting Felicity's mom, I'm more interested in Felicity. If her mom has to be part of that, part of discovering more about her, then so be it. It's weird though, I don't want Felicity to not be Felicity Smoak. I hope there was no name change in there. I don't know why, I just find the idea unsettling. Also I like the idea that Felicity has a more grounded backstory. I don't need there to be criminal activity or whatever. I'd enjoy it just as much if she simply came from a broken home. Why does everything have to be wrapped up in something so big, y'know?

 

Saying that I am interested to find out about these secrets. The way that twitter conversation played out suggests that there's more secrets that we won't know about even after episode 305.

Oh don't get me started on Laurel's mother. The way they've wasted Alex Kingston in that role is criminal.

 

I honestly forgot that Alex Kingston was Laurel's mom. OMG. I think it was the absence of her curly hair but still. Wow. That says a lot! 

[poetgirl925]

I wouldn't say I'm that invested in the mother since I doubt we'll see her more than a couple of times during the season. However, I am interested in whatever DC angle they're going for here and how that will tie into Felicity's story. They said Felicity would have a 'series of flashbacks' and we know we're learning about her time at MIT. The producers also mentioned a mystery that plays out over part of the season. I wonder if it's possible that something in Felicity's past ties into the mystery? They usually find a way to connect flashbacks to present story.

I also wonder now if Oracle could be a computer program, possibly one Felicity worked on. I was watching another show recently (I think it was Covert Affairs) and they mentioned a program called Oracle. There are also a lot of references to Oracle when you google it with 'computer program.'

[ban1o]

I'm not bothered about meeting Felicity's mom, I'm more interested in Felicity. If her mom has to be part of that, part of discovering more about her, then so be it. It's weird though, I don't want Felicity to not be Felicity Smoak. I hope there was no name change in there. I don't know why, I just find the idea unsettling. Also I like the idea that Felicity has a more grounded backstory. I don't need there to be criminal activity or whatever. I'd enjoy it just as much if she simply came from a broken home. Why does everything have to be wrapped up in something so big, y'know?

 

Saying that I am interested to find out about these secrets. The way that twitter conversation played out suggests that there's more secrets that we won't know about even after episode 305.

Yeah I'm definitely interested to know more about Felicity's back-story. For as much as people like the character, I feel like she doesn't have that much identity outside of Oliver. We don't know much about her past, her family, or anything really. She's kinda one dimensional at times. Laurel, Moira, Sara and Thea are much more developed characters. I do hope that it doesn't have to do with the villains  and that it is more grounded.  I read a prediction by someone that her father was Ras Al Guhl. I was like....how about no?  

Edited August 21, 2014 by ban1o

[Guest]

Yeah I'm definitely interested to know more about Felicity's back-story. For as much as people like the character, I feel like she doesn't have that much identity outside of Oliver. We don't know much about her past, her family, or anything really. She's kinda one dimensional at times. Laurel, Moira, Sara and Thea are much more developed characters. I do hope that it doesn't have to do with the villains  and that it is more grounded.  I read a prediction by someone that her father was Ras Al Guhl. I was like....how about no?  

 

See, the beauty about Felicity's character is that yes, technically on paper I guess you could describe her as one dimensional but not once have I ever thought that when she's on screen. EBR has taken what little she's been given and made her into this whole person. That's why I've been pretty ok with waiting to know more about her because not knowing didn't do her a disservice in any way. Now is the time to find out more though and I hope it just fills in those little questions we all have about her. 

 

Ra's Al Ghul as Felicity's dad? Ugh. No. That is the opposite of what I want. I don't get why everything has to be tied in and wrapped up with everything else. We already have Digg's brother's death linked into H.I.V.E and whatever, do we really need to go there with Felicity too? It's unnecessary. Not everything/everyone should be interconnected. It takes away the beauty of Oliver's first meeting with her then. I liked that these two people likely never would have met and then were thrown together and grew as friends and fell in love. If it turns out that they're all linked anyway it kind of takes away the magic of that. But that's just me.

[dtissagirl]

I also wonder now if Oracle could be a computer program, possibly one Felicity worked on. I was watching another show recently (I think it was Covert Affairs) and they mentioned a program called Oracle. There are also a lot of references to Oracle when you google it with 'computer program.'

You know, I was wondering if maybe the trouble with using "Oracle" isn't DC Comics, but the software company Oracle. Because their database management tool IS called "Oracle", so maybe Arrow can't name a fictional program something from the real world. Their legal dept. would probably flag it.

[poetgirl925]

Yeah, well those same people probably predicted her father was Robert Queen, Ivo, etc. I seriously doubt her father is Ra's lol. Some of the predictions have been weird. I believe at least one of her parents will be important or at least recognizable, though. That's just the way comic book stories work. Based on the secrecy about her mother's name, I think it's a safe guess it might be a DC name. There's just no other reason I can think of not to release the name. Her father might have one as well, I guess, but I don't think it will be Ra's Al Ghul. Also, I was talking to my brother about Arrow and The Flash this afternoon, and he told me DC has a New 52 comic line called Secret Origins. From what he said it has different characters in each issue. So, I guess that explains the strange and rather long title. I guess I should have added DC when googling before because previously I only saw one for Marvel (Tony Stark.) I have no idea what kind of story they're telling though since he hasn't read them and I've never even heard of them.

ETA - yes, I noticed there was a company called Oracle and a computing tool, so it occurred to me that might be a problem. I think Oracle first appeared in DC comics in the late 80s-early 90s, so it (probably) predates their computer software name. Then again I have no idea how this kind of copyright thing works. OTOH I heard they might make a Suicide Squad movie and that is where Oracle first appeared even though Babs was tied to Gotham. With all the other DC properties in production now, I think character rights are going to be even stricter.

Edited August 21, 2014 by poetgirl925

[Morrigan2575]

I'm curious about what the EP's felt was 'too big' about s2 because there was a middle run of episodes there that just felt like filler, especially during the flashbacks. I felt like a lot of time was wasted when it could have been exploring other things. They just need more focused writing.

IIRC, the context implied that they had too much going on and couldn't give enough screentime to develop the stories. Basically, the season got away from them.

[ban1o]

Yeah, well those same people probably predicted her father was Robert Queen, Ivo, etc. I seriously doubt her father is Ra's lol. Some of the predictions have been weird. I believe at least one of her parents will be important or at least recognizable, though. That's just the way comic book stories work. Based on the secrecy about her mother's name, I think it's a safe guess it might be a DC name. There's just no other reason I can think of not to release the name. Her father might have one as well, I guess, but I don't think it will be Ra's Al Ghul. Also, I was talking to my brother about Arrow and The Flash this afternoon, and he told me DC has a New 52 comic line called Secret Origins. From what he said it has different characters in each issue. So, I guess that explains the strange and rather long title. I guess I should have added DC when googling before because previously I only saw one for Marvel (Tony Stark.) I have no idea what kind of story they're telling though since he hasn't read them and I've never even heard of them.

Oh yeah I don't care if her parents are recognizable. That's fine but I just hope one of her parents isn't one of the main villains for this season. It would just seem to coincidental, especially since they've barely mentioned her parents up to this point.

[statsgirl]

I love that EBR has so much fun with the writers of both shows.  Pretty sure it adds to a better Felicity and a better Arrow.

 

 

I guess Mama Smoak is going to have a recognizable DC name because I can't think of any other reason to keep it secret. It's not that big a deal if her last name is different from Felicity's. Lots of women and their children have different last names for various reasons - going back to the maiden name while kids use dad's name, remarrying, etc. And I really think Felicity Smoak is going to end up not being Felicity Smoak. Right now I am more curious about this and Thea's story than anything else.

I wonder if they're going to make Felicity into or connected with another DC character. When they thought of putting in an IT specialist for Oliver to go to (after the feedback on the pilot from Comic Con), they probably thought she would be a minor recurring character.  Then she became important and now that she's going to be in the comics, maybe they're having trouble separating her from the original Felicity Smoak.

 

They actually said that last year as well.  In fact that was something SA and the EPs said repeatedly in the early S2 interviews.  That the EPs used S1 as a training bike and took what did work and focused on that and, then limited/got rid of the stuff that didn't work (which you can actually see in 201-209).  They also made comments in the interviews down towards the end of the season that they knew they made mistakes and had learned from them.  

 

One mistake MG mentioned was that they went too big in S2 and had too many story-lines going on and weren't able to do them justice when trying to wrap everything up for the finale. - S3 was supposed to be more "intimate" in answer to that, going back to smaller stories like in S1.

 

AK and MG have both mentioned mistakes with Laurel but we don't know what they think the mistakes were or what they're planning to do about it.  My guess is that they think the mistake was that Laurel didn't know the secret and that she wasn't BC (pretty sure AK said something to the effect of "everyone just wants her to be BC already").  So they're idea of fixing the issue might be to push her into to Team Arrow and make her Canary.

As KirkB asked, the question is 'do they know what the mistakes are'?    They said that they were going to take the overarcing storyline idea in s1 (The List) and put it into s2 because to have one story over the season worked better.  They said some things about s2 that they thought worked (I can't remember them) but I think they also indicated that they were going to put the focus back on Team Arrow (O/D/F) again.

 

I think they still might not know where they went wrong with Laurel. AK said that he knows people are just waiting for her to put on those black fishnets, which makes me wonder if they ever do any polling. On the other hand, if they put her to the side doing legal stuff and keep Oliver out of her vicinity next season, maybe they do have a clue what went wrong.

 

Whenever, if ever, she becomes BC, there's no way to say she'll still be a DA, and I really can't get worked up over that anyway. In Laurel's "hero" favor she's never murdered anyone. Repeatedly. As her job. Like her sister. And Oliver. I mean seriously, the idea that Laurel could never be heroic because she's blackmailed someone and is jus jellus is ridiculous. This isn't the Good Wife, I'm unconcerned with Laurel's legal ethics.

 

I don't like Laurel, I don't want her to be BC, I think her narrative to this point has been far more supportive of an anti-hero/good girl gone bad, or always bitchy girl finally revealed, but it isn't UNPOSSIBLE to write a story where I could buy her as BC and accept her even if it costs me/the show Sara. But the only way that works for me if it doesn't happen for YEARS. Like S5 or series finale styles.

Oliver has done some pretty awful things, and so has Sara but IMO they are heroic because they want to do good things and help people who can't help themselves or who have been wronged (Oliver with The List and other criminals, Sara with helping women etc.).  The problem with Laurel is not the blackmailing, because I support blackmail in a good cause, but that other than some things at the beginning of s1, she's been more selfish than anything else.

 

Maybe if they write her a good storyline it could work, something equivalent to Oliver's island or Sara's troubles, maybe her personality could turn around.  But after 46 episodes, I'm not optimistic that it isn't too late.

Edited August 21, 2014 by statsgirl

[ban1o]

Yeah felicity was actually only supposed to appear in a couple episodes but it was EBR's charisma along with fan response that made her into such a major character. That's why she doesn't really have a backstory or anything because she wasn't really in the writers original plan for the show. That's also why the felicity smoak in the comics is completely different than the one in Arrow.

[Orion]

I'm curious about what the EP's felt was 'too big' about s2 because there was a middle run of episodes there that just felt like filler, especially during the flashbacks. I felt like a lot of time was wasted when it could have been exploring other things. They just need more focused writing. 

 

What I remember reading last season is that Barry Allen was originally suppose to wake up and have another episode on Arrow, I believe 2X20, was the back door pilot for the Flash. The writers had that planned out and the network green lit the Flash for a regular pilot after those plans were made. I think I even remember reading at the time that the Arrow writers didn't know about the change until after the mid-season break so they had to change things on the fly and that could be why some of the island scenes and episodes felt like filler. The "to big" comment was said by AK if I remember right and I think he said it in reference to Isabel.  My main problem with 2B is that after 2X12 it felt like they were writing to set up the finale and the final battle in it, instead of writing for the episode. (The Clock King episode set up the device to break into Allied Sciences, the Mirakuru cure was to bring in Star Labs, Sara on Team Arrow was for the LOA, Oliver, Sara fight scene, Roy's accelerated acceptance by the team, being injected was so he could join the battle as Arsenal, Sara dumping Oliver was for the fake out, etc) That whole arc screamed plot driven characters instead of character driven plot and I'm hoping that's one of the things the EPs know they did wrong.

 

Yeah felicity was actually only supposed to appear in a couple episodes but it was EBR's charisma along with fan response that made her into such a major character. That's why she doesn't really have a backstory or anything because she wasn't really in the writers original plan for the show. That's also why the felicity smoak in the comics is completely different than the one in Arrow.

 

Just a little correction. Felicity being added didn't have anything to do with fan response. Season 1 up to episode 9 were already filmed and episode 13 or 14 were already written before viewers first saw Felicity in 1X03 on their TVs. By the time her first scene aired the WB had already told the writers they wanted more of her and the EPs had already written the scripts that added her to Team Arrow.  Fans, critics and the EPs response to SA and EBR's chemistry is what moved her toward being a love interest and that happened after everyone saw their scenes together.

 

And I think we would have had more of Felicity's back story but the writers knew her fans would wait for it and they wanted to try to fix Laurel's character as soon as they could, so Felicity's story got pushed back.  Especially because what they wanted for her was a "lighter story" and they didn't feel like it would fit in at the end of S2 with how dark it got. 

[catrox14]

Yeah felicity was actually only supposed to appear in a couple episodes but it was EBR's charisma along with fan response that made her into such a major character. That's why she doesn't really have a backstory or anything because she wasn't really in the writers original plan for the show. That's also why the felicity smoak in the comics is completely different than the one in Arrow.

I don't know why this narrative keeps coming back about Felicity. Fan response was never a factor in her becoming a more prominent character. Felicity was only supposed to be in ONE episode. It was solely the EPs and writers and network suits that saw what was happening with her and Stephen and EBR's talents long before the audience ever saw her for one moment onscreen

[formerlyfreedom]

Let's remember this is the Spoiler topic.

 

Discussion of how or why or anything at all to do with Felicity coming on Arrow are not for this topic. It's done and in the past. Move on, please.

[ban1o]

Lol I didn't expect to get such backlash for my comment lol. Sorry, my mistake.

Edited August 22, 2014 by ban1o

[pootlus]

According to Wikipedia Oracle the database first appeared in 1978 (I used it in 1995 and it had ben going a long while then) - I can definitely see using 'Oracle' as the name of a computer program causing legal issues especially if it's used for hacking by Felicity in her MIT days.

Edited August 22, 2014 by pootlus

[wonderwall]

@ban1o, I don't see a lot of backlash? If it means anything, I sort of agree with you! I don't really care for mama-smoak, I just care for how her appearance will enrich Felicity's backstory. I don't want it to be the old "oh I'm so ashamed of my mom" trope, I want her relationship with her mother to actually be interesting. 

Edited August 22, 2014 by wonderwall

[statsgirl]

I know it's unlikely but they can always go back to the original meaning of oracle, which is someone who predicts the future.  Or maybe someone who writes a computer program that affects the future.

 

It would be kind of fun if Felicity wrote a program in college that is used for something in the current day Arrow-verse, maybe something one of the bad guys took and used and now she feels the responsibility to get in there are destroy it because her innocent program enabled the crime to be committed.

 

 

That's also why the felicity smoak in the comics is completely different than the one in Arrow.

I wonder if they regret that now. Her name was probably supposed to be just an easter egg, and now the DC universe is kind of messed up.

Edited August 22, 2014 by statsgirl

[JayKay]

I don't have any legal basis for this, but I doubt that an Oracle copyright issue is what determined the episode title change since the CW website is streaming the old Birds of Prey series, and Barbara Gordon is called Oracle in the opening of every single episode. The CW lost the original music, but doesn't have to censor that name. Whatever factors are at play here, it was probably an in-house decision to change the name.

[abhi]

Apparently, Stephen and Barrowman are filming a scene face to face today. So, by the 4th episode Oliver knows that Merlyn survived and they are not fighting but having an intense conversation.

https://twitter.com/yvrshoots/status/502716322544095232

Edited August 22, 2014 by abhi

[BkWurm1]

I don't want Felicity to not be Felicity Smoak. I hope there was no name change in there.

 

That's also why the felicity smoak in the comics is completely different than the one in Arrow.

 

I wonder if they regret that now. Her name was probably supposed to be just an easter egg, and now the DC universe is kind of messed up.

 

I got the impression that Felicity Smoak in the comics was pretty much too minor of a character to ever be that big of a deal but because of the name belonging originally to another completely separate character I really would have no problem if we found out that our Felicity someway or another chose the name Felicity Smoak.

In a lovely manner  it would parallel Oliver seeking out his true self by creating an alter ego.  In the end for Oliver, the new person becomes the real person and that's why it wouldn't bother me if Felicity Smoak didn't end up being the name on her original birth certificate.  Felicity Smoak would remain the real person.

[Velocity23]

ITs finally happening! Charlotte Ross its on her way to Vancouver!

 

 

[Morrigan2575]

Yeah, they should start filming on Monday.  hopefully we get some set pic from the paps, I hear yrshoots has pics of Barrowman/Amell filming a Merlyn/Oliver street scene with some intense conversations going on.  

[SpoonAZ]

Some spoilers from EP Marc Guggenheim on what version of Katana we will see during Season 3. Also mentions whether Ray Palmer will get his own episode. It's also fun to mention he would love to do a DC 'Crisis' with the Cinematic Universe. Yes please, sign me up!

 

Marc Guggenheim Interview

[Velocity23]

I am confused! Does this have anything to do with Thea?

[Velocity23]

The opening shot of #Arrow Ep. 3x01 courtesy of Executive Producer Marc Guggenhiem!

[apinknightmare]

I am confused! Does this have anything to do with Thea?

Malcolm, I'd guess.

[NumberCruncher]

Also mentions whether Ray Palmer will get his own episode.

 

Well at least I know what episode I'll be skipping or fast-forwarding through 95% of.  I don't think I can endure watching BR for that long.

 

Malcolm, I'd guess.

 

Yeah, I suspect it's going to have to do with a discussion about Tommy.  ETA:  And probably Thea too.

Edited August 22, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[Morrigan2575]

It's Malcolm/Oliver, we know they filmed together last night.  Maybe Thea/Oliver but I haven't heard anything indicating that Willa filmed last night.

[Velocity23]

There are some photos of Stephen and Barrowman posing with some extras in the BTS thread. Seems they did an outside shoot. Maybe it has to do with flashbacks since SA posted this yesterday. But then he also posted one of him in Arrow suit sitting on grass.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2014 by Velocity23

[Password]

It's so funny how Oliver's hair grows but his facial hair doesn't.

[apinknightmare]

It's so funny how Oliver's hair grows but his facial hair doesn't.

 

It really is. I'm guessing the beard he had when he was picked up from the island was fake? Now that the jig is up regarding the time he spent on Lian Yu, I hope they don't let his hair grow as long as it was in the pilot. I get keeping it longer, so it's visually easier to tell where we are, but mid-season-2, where he looked like a dirty Tom Brady was perfect IMO. It's starting to get to the point where he'd have to wear it tied back for effective assassining or whatever he's doing for Waller, and I do NOT want.

[Morrigan2575]

oh wow that wig looks so much better than the last 2.

[ban1o]

Well at least I know what episode I'll be skipping or fast-forwarding through 95% of.  I don't think I can endure watching BR for that

Lol don't knock him before you get a chance to see him on arrow. He was good on "chuck"

[NumberCruncher]

Lol don't knock him before you get a chance to see him on arrow. He was good on "chuck"

 

Oh, I *hated* him on Chuck and not just because he was in-between Chuck and Sarah.  He's just drier than toast as an actor.

[ban1o]

Oh, I *hated* him on Chuck and not just because he was in-between Chuck and Sarah.  He's just drier than toast as an actor.

Haha guess we'll disagree then I don't think he's any worse than most of the actors on this show.

[Velocity23]

Arrow filming last night in Vancouver. A scene between Oliver and Malcolm.

 

 

[Tallis]

Interesting that Malcolm is out in public like that in (I'm assuming) Starling City. His face is going to be pretty well known in a 'public enemy no. 1' way there after all.

[ban1o]

I wonder if Oliver will find out that Thea is with Malcolm sooner or later. Like will he know by episode 4? 

 

 

Interesting that Malcolm is out in public like that in (I'm assuming) Starling City. His face is going to be pretty well known in a 'public enemy no. 1' way there after all.

 

 

Yeah I was wondering the same thing. Haha like wouldn't every single person recognize him? He caused a genocide that destroyed half the city. 

Edited August 22, 2014 by ban1o

[Morrigan2575]

Per MG, Felicity's mom's name is "Donna".

 

Marc Guggenheim ‏@mguggenheim  30s
Okay, Internet, Felicity's mom's name is Donna. @charlotteross @EmilyBett

 

Edited August 22, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[NumberCruncher]

Hmm...hopefully Donna is her real name which bodes well for Felicity not being tied by birth to the comic book hero and villain world.  Please keep Felicity the somewhat normal, yet clearly brilliant woman she is.