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Spoiler Discussion Thread

Morrigan2575

By Morrigan2575
in Arrow

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Trisha

Trisha

31 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Why does MG keep telling Jbuffyangel all this stuff though? It's a bit weird, IMO.

It's SUPER weird but I also think it's a not bad method of damage control after this mess of a season. He knows he can't rely on the atrocious CW PR -- and even if he did, it seems like they are stuck with mandated talking points to be delivered during certain times of the season ("back to basics," Wild Dog, legacy, Dinah, etc.). So this allows him to get around the official channels/messaging and stoke the Olicity flames more than a month before the episode actually airs. (I know Screenr is promising Olicity scoop tomorrow, but I'm guessing most mainstream sites won't cover 520 until the week it airs.) And by going to a well-known shipper, it makes him look like he's extending an olive branch to that part of the fandom. It also mitigates the comic fan backlash that would happen if he tweeted this stuff himself. I can't imagine a lot of non-shippers are following her.

Of course, he wouldn't have to do any of this twisty PR weirdness if there wasn't a need for damage control in the first place, but alas...

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Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

Me for all of last summer hiatus and 5A: Me after reading the WM interview from a few weeks back about Felicity's arc giving her a more profound understanding of Oliver: Me after r

BkWurm1
BkWurm1

I tend to think that trying to make KC a place on the show had a ripple effect that did hurt the show pretty badly.  She's what turned Quentin stupid and into a creepy stalker.  So that wipes off the

calliope1975
calliope1975

Challenge accepted.

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way2interested

way2interested

29 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

The more spoilers I hear the more concerned I am that Felicity is going to end up apologizing for bailing. Does Oliver know that F's mom sent her dad away? The !Secret! was justified because Saint Samantha of the Baby Mamas insisted on it so I'm dreading a retcon where she also was the one deciding Oliver shouldn't be involved so we get more poor Oliver scenes. If they do want to bring William back he can physically be in 1 or 2 episodes and then just mentioned through phone calls and throwaway lines. I would be fine with the kid's return if it's part of a callback to when Felicity told Oliver about not just accepting things and he tells her what he wants for himself instead of things he does out of duty.

I mean, there's nothing to apologize for at this point, at least how the show's presented it. She made a decision to leave him, he let her end it, and the end of the day they both felt it was one of the most miserable moments of their lives. She apologized for saying he could never change, he stated that he will never lie to her again (and apparently will apologize IIRC with one of the past spoilers about 520), but they're still not together ultimately because Felicity (and then later Oliver) decided that it was time to move on rather than try again. At this point what's needed is a talk just to see where they're each at (and to remind the audience, "Hey, this couple is a thing that we are likely to go back to, here's things we're addressing so it isn't coming out of nowhere!"), which is what 520 seems to be about.

I think that the kid part of the conversation will just be like a bullet point on what they talk about and the "what she wants from Oliver" is actually the bigger aspect of the spoiler, since that's probably what would set up a reconnection/reunion, since Felicity ultimately has to be the one to take him back, not Oliver.

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theOAfc

theOAfc

They only time they bring up william both in convos or screen is for olicity related story. If thats not proof they never cared to explore Oliver being a dad but just wanted to use this for contrived drama, i dont know what is.

 

Also regarding MG spoiling (more like teasing ) stuff in DMs,it makes him look desperate to be honest. He is a producer of a show, spreading stuff about the show via DMs to fans instead of simply trying to give a better tease in his official interviews. 

apinknightmare

apinknightmare

4 minutes ago, theOAfc said:

Also regarding MG spoiling (more like teasing ) stuff in DMs,it makes him look desperate to be honest. He is a producer of a show, spreading stuff about the show via DMs to fans instead of simply trying to give a better tease in his official interviews. 

This stuff with JBA-exclusive teases is weird, but he's answered questions and other kinds of things in DMs for years now, since at least S3 if not before then - it isn't anything new. 

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

2 minutes ago, looptab said:

As for JBA, IIRC it's not that MG gives her tidbits each week - didn't she say she had  more info, and that she's the one choosing to release it this way?

No, according to her he's giving them to her weekly and she's posting them as soon as she gets them. This is from her blog:

Quote

That’s all for now! Marc said he’d tease out more to me each week (because he’s the best). So, I’ll post them as soon as I get them

Trisha

Trisha

4 minutes ago, looptab said:

I'm lost..where does this "hunter" thing come from?

In the comics when Green Arrow defeats Prometheus he says: 

Quote

Prometheus’ specialty had always been an uncanny knowledge of his opponents – he studied our abilities, skills, and tendencies. He took my proficiency with the bow. He was well aware of my hand-to-hand combat training. But Prometheus never grasped that vital piece of information. He never knew that at my core, I wasn’t a hero. I was a hunter.

Seems like a regression for Oliver to say that, but if 517 is him at his worst I guess it makes sense.

looptab

looptab

5 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

No, according to her he's giving them to her weekly and she's posting them as soon as she gets them. This is from her blog:

Oh, okay, haha. 

3 minutes ago, Trisha said:

In the comics when Green Arrow defeats Prometheus he says: 

Seems like a regression for Oliver to say that, but if 517 is him at his worst I guess it makes sense.

Thank you. :)

Guest

Guest

(edited)

RIP Team Arrow doesn't have the "Original" in front of it so I'm good. ;P

What was all that talk/story in s3 about when they said they were a team with or without Oliver though? I'm guessing with the team made up of more newer members and Felicity focused elsewhere, maybe it's harder to keep them together? IDK.

Edited by Guest
Trisha

Trisha

So if "I'm shutting everything down" is how 517 ends and 518 is called Disbanded, then Felicity probably spends 518 going after Prometheus her own way using Helix, and then when Oliver tries to get the band back together in 519 with his own plan take Chase down she's all "Nah, I got this."

This sounds like it could actually  be...good? That's not a feeling I've experienced a lot this season.

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way2interested

way2interested

Just now, ComicFan777 said:

"WE HAVE TO CAPTURE DATA IN A 4-DIMENSIONAL ARRAY, WHICH COULD THEN BE PARSED USING A REAL-TIME ALGORITHM."

Hmmm....I don't see how programmer speak of reading data in and having it analyzed by an algorithm is a spoiler - this just indicates Felicity, Curtis, or Helix minions are using a computer.

It's not. He's making fun of Arrow's techno speak.

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Soulfire

Soulfire

Dialogue from the end scene of Arrow 5x17: Kapiushon --

Quote

 

JOHN: OK. I'M SORRY. I'VE JUST BEEN AT THIS SO LONG, I DON'T KNOW WHICH WAY IS UP. AND OLIVER'S BEEN GONE FOR 6 DAYS AND...AND WHAT?

OLIVER? OH, MY GOD.

JOHN: OLIVER?

OLIVER: CHASE HAD ME-- UGHH AND HE LET ME GO.

GO SLOW, MAN.

OLIVER: IT'S OVER.

JOHN: OLIVER, WE'RE GONNA GET THIS SON OF A BITCH FOR WHATEVER HE DID TO YOU.

OLIVER: JOHN, IT'S OVER FOR ME. I DON'T WANT TO DO THIS ANYMORE. I'M SHUTTING EVERYTHING DOWN.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/arrow/comments/60q3f4/s5e17_kapiushon_episode_17_spoilers/

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statsgirl

statsgirl

(edited)

So, I guess Chase broke Oliver.  Except everyone but apparently the White House knows that you can't trust any information or confession given under torture.

Quote

YonkouProductions‏

Whenever hacking and tech talk happens in arrow its like they're trying to act smart without knowing shit and sell you the analogy...

Whew, that's a relief.  I thought it was just me.

I guess the spoiler part is that Felicity is at Helix because the Arrow cave doesn't have the computing capability for a 4-D array, whatever that might be. And why would you parse it (?) in a real time algorithm, which would negate the whole point of a 4-d array.

Edited by statsgirl
Trisha

Trisha

(edited)

Well, my optimistic anticipation lasted all of 7 minutes. I hate this. Someone on Twitter last week suggested this would be the big secret Chase got out of him but I dismissed it because I couldn't imagine they would do this to their hero. Making Oliver someone who likes killing is a tough pill to swallow (especially in a season where it's already hard to find him likeable). It's like, "Hey, this guy you've been rooting for for five seasons is actually a serial killer! lolz"

I guess this explains the SA quote that EW just posted about this week's episode, though:

Quote

If we’ve done our job with season 5 correctly, if we stick the landing on all of this, by the end of the season, our hope is that you will look at Oliver’s killing in a completely different light and look at it in a totally different way. And look at his motivations for killing in a different way, in a more complex, more nuanced way. My hope is the whole season will kind of answer that question if we pull it off.

12 minutes ago, Soulfire said:

The secret Chase gets Oliver to confess: he killed for enjoyment.

Edited by Trisha
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calliope1975

calliope1975

I don't think this will be a fun episode to watch, but none of the spoilers I'm reading surprise me at all. Oliver "liked" killing? I don't know that we've ever seen serial killer joy from him in that, so I don't buy it. Did he kill some folks he probably should have let go? Sure, but that's not new news. 

He's going to need 75 Barry-type pep talks. Good God. Can we, just once, get the gorram hero of the show to fucking grow a spine and get some confidence? Can this be the last time he gives up?

Well, I'm sure SA put his all into it, and if I can get home in time to live chat, we'll get through it together. :D

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dtissagirl

dtissagirl

7 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I guess the spoiler part is that Felicity is at Helix because the Arrow cave doesn't have the computing capability for a 4-D array, whatever that might be. And why would you parse it (?) in a real time algorithm, which would negate the whole point of a 4-d array.

The thing is, this makes very little sense, because a 4D array just means programming multiple arrays into the code [used to program in C a lifetime ago and we used 3D arrays all the time. Adding an extra array would mean more brackets and commas, but that's about it]. Which is what the OP was saying -- Arrow's technobable is just computer programing related words put together, but it doesn't mean anything.

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Guest

Guest

(edited)

Yeah, I don't like the killing for enjoyment thing even though I had a feeling it would be something like that. I could maybe see that confession related to his time in Russia but not now. I hope it's building to something more than that.

At least now we know why Oliver went back to killing in 501. 

Edited by Guest
statsgirl

statsgirl

I really, really hope this is done well.  Although I'm not sanguine at all.

From a psychological perspective, this makes a lot of sense. It's simpler to kill, to make things black and white instead of the complicated mess that is real life.  It also ties in nicely to Felicity quitting because he was going to hurt a single father in 1xx15.  Both Diggle and Felicity had to stop him from being too simplistic.

It doesn't have to be the end of Oliver as a sympathetic character.  It just makes him more complex.

I"m really excited for this.  No wonder Brian Ford Sullivan was excited about writing this episode.

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leopardprint

leopardprint

(edited)

They've shown previously that Oliver if not liking than at least not being especially concerned with killing (poor Billy) but they've also shown that he doesn't have to kill.  Didn't they sort of do this in the Hong Kong flashbacks when he kills the general? I guess they will show him indescriminately hunting down sketchy people in the Russia flashbacks.

ETA: I find it darkly humorous if Felicity has no time for mopey Oliver cause she's getting her revenge on. 

Edited by leopardprint
typos
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wonderwall

wonderwall

(edited)

I think the part where Oliver confesses that he likes to kill people is obviously something he was pushed to say. If any of you watched Making a Murderer it's pretty much like the Brendan Dassey situation where the 'victim' per se, just says what needs to be said. I think it's obvious from this:

C7eIactXkAAtcnL.jpg

Edited by wonderwall
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theOAfc

theOAfc

Oliver was never shown to enjoy killing people and he very easily embraced the no killing policy once Tommy died so him breaking like that and believing that he kills because he likes it is stupid imo. Especially if he breaks, in just one episode. Then again,the show is repeating the same tropes. Every season he wonders if he is a killer or a hero and if he has light or darkness inside him,its irritating at this point.

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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

Under intense torture and interrogation, prisoners and suspects have been known to confess to beliefs that they don't believe and to committing crimes that they didn't commit. So I just don't believe that Oliver undertook his crusade because he enjoys killing, period.

It's not so much Oliver confessing a secret, but confessing a secret fear. Probably by the end of this season, he'll realize the difference.

Edited by tv echo
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Mellowyellow

Mellowyellow

5 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Instead of being excited I'm now bracing for that conversation. Why, why couldn't have Flashpoint erased this awful storyline?!?! Oliver could have lied about something else other than a kid. 

This x 1000000000

Or they could have had the kid die in flash point! I do not want to be subjected to crayon eating William again!

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statsgirl

statsgirl

25 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

The thing is, this makes very little sense, because a 4D array just means programming multiple arrays into the code [used to program in C a lifetime ago and we used 3D arrays all the time. Adding an extra array would mean more brackets and commas, but that's about it]. Which is what the OP was saying -- Arrow's technobable is just computer programing related words put together, but it doesn't mean anything.

I thought if it was 4-D it would involve studying the phenomenon through time, which makes a real-time algorithm meaningless.  But I admit I know much more about psychology and regression equations than computing.

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tangerine95

tangerine95

I'm not really a fan of the killing because he enjoys it thing but I'll wait and see how they explain it and deal with it because it's just hard for me to believe they'll expect people to root for a hero who simply enjoys killing and that's why he does it.Especially after the whole light and hope stuff they've been pushing Oliver towards for seasons and I don't think they gave that up.  It could be that it's something that isn't really true or at least that simple but Prometheus actually makes him believe it in an effort to get him to see himself as the villain. 

Doesn't make sense for me that it's true because they've only ever shown how Oliver struggles and hates the fact that he used to kill. And in season 1 when he did it he was supposed to be at his darkest mindset right after the island and bratva. 

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way2interested

way2interested

(edited)
Just now, wonderwall said:

I think the part where Oliver confesses that he likes to kill people is obviously something he was pushed to say. If any of you watched Making a Murderer it's pretty much like the Brendan Dassey situation where the 'victim' per se, just say what needs to be said. I think it's obvious from this:

C7eIactXkAAtcnL.jpg

I was thinking something like that too. Not necessarily saying it to get Chase to let him go or anything, but rationalizing it in his head in a way that would get himself to think he either deserves it or that it's the part of him that Chase says is in him. Like a heightened, emotional whisper in his head rather than an actual secret.

ETA: Or pretty much what TV Echo said.

Edited by way2interested
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Trisha

Trisha

12 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

From a psychological perspective, this makes a lot of sense. It's simpler to kill, to make things black and white instead of the complicated mess that is real life.  It also ties in nicely to Felicity quitting because he was going to hurt a single father in 1xx15.  Both Diggle and Felicity had to stop him from being too simplistic.

It doesn't have to be the end of Oliver as a sympathetic character.  It just makes him more complex.

I get the compartmentalizing/keeping things black and white in order to do the things he had to do (similar to what Talia advised him about constructing the Arrow persona). But I think being detached/indifferent/having a simplistic approach to killing is way different than *liking* it. That's a whole other ballgame that's above and beyond PTSD. It reminds me of Dexter, who used vigilante-ing as an outlet for his murderous desires. 

I hope it makes him a sympathetic character but something similar happened on Poldark where they took such a dark turn with the main character that I could never see him as a hero after that. At the end of the day, I hope this "I liked it" line is more about something that Chase planted in his head after 6 days of brutal torture, not something we're supposed to actually believe about a guy who we're meant to root for (and who we're meant to root for Felicity to reunite with). But SA's quote in EW about how this will recontextualize Oliver's killing worries me. 

leopardprint

leopardprint

4 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

I think the part where Oliver confesses that he likes to kill people is obviously something he was pushed to say. If any of you watched Making a Murderer it's pretty much like the Brendan Dassey situation where the 'victim' per se, just say what needs to be said. I think it's obvious from this:

C7eIactXkAAtcnL.jpg

Laurel, Tommy and Moira didn't die because of his S1 killing. Even Prometheus doesn't continuity right.

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Guest
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