Spoiler Discussion Thread

[ComicFan777]

Big Belly Burger scene with new TA and nuBC makes me kinda sad because the burger scenes (that I remember at the moment) in the past were where family is family:
- Felicity meeting Oliver and the trust talk
- OTA talking about the dodger case and casual talk about asking girls out
- Oliver and Moira eating burgers
- Laurel and Nyssa eating fries and milkshakes
Sorta sad that the next BBB scene is without OTA, but instead with the noobs and Tina.  Out with the old and in with the new, I guess.

Edited November 8, 2016 by ComicFan777

[lemotomato]

I think DR is in the US. Or at least he just posed a selfie with a "Just voted" sticker, which you can only get at a polling place. 

[Chaser]

Not all the Boobs. Makes me wonder if Evelyn doesn't make it past mid season. 

[Thundercatmary]

Honestly I'm pretty pissed Felicity isn't there, I really hope she ends up being there. I'm so irritated I can't even find my words lol.

[Mellowyellow]

I'm just wondering where the F is Felicity!!!!

I am curious though how they'll drag out the relationship between Tina and Oliver. Or would it be a fully functional relationship between two angry people with issues 

[apinknightmare]

4 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Not all the Boobs. Makes me wonder if Evelyn doesn't make it past mid season. 

I was just thinking how sad it is that Evelyn has made such a little impact that no one wonders where she is,  haha

[Chaser]

For all we know Oliver is taking the pups out for some male bonding and Tina tracks down her navy ex (WD) because of a case. 

[insomniadreams88]

8 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Not all the Boobs. Makes me wonder if Evelyn doesn't make it past mid season. 

It doesn't sound like Rory's there either? Maybe they're both off with Felicity somewhere? (I know, I'm probably being too optimistic with that.)

5 minutes ago, Thundercatmary said:

Honestly I'm pretty pissed Felicity isn't there, I really hope she ends up being there.

Or that there's a really good reason she's not there and it's not just because they've decided to leave her out of the scene. 

[Lily-n11]

I feel Evelyn was only there so the show wouldn't have to use voiceovers for Wild Dong. I guess since Diggle seems to be stuck on WD island now they don't need her anymore? I mean after 5 episodes what did we learn about her? I got nothing. She had no storyline about her and I did not see any setup for storylines to come.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Lily-n11

[insomniadreams88]

Just now, Lily-n11 said:

I feel Evelyn was only there so the show wouldn't have to use voiceovers for Wild Dong. I guess since Diggle seems to be stuck in WD island now they don't need her anymore? I mean after 5 episodes what did we learn about her? I got nothing. She had no storyline about her and I did not see any setup for storylines to come.

Maybe they realize having a teenager on the team isn't the best idea and send her to school. 

[Lily-n11]

7 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Maybe they realize having a teenager on the team isn't the best idea and send her to school. 

I would not be opposed to this but so far they have not even hinted at it. Maybe one day she will not show up at the bunker and we will get a oneliner about her going back to school or college. That would confirm it for me that they only used her for WD.

They did not make me care about her character but I would hate that.

[dtissagirl]

51 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Huh. @quarks might be pleased by the new set, at least.

I know I'm being annoying, but. It seems to be a real diner that they're dressing up as BBB. So, new location, but not a new set. Which is cheaper, and I honestly have no idea why Arrow doesn't do it more often. SPN does this like, every episode.

[wonderwall]

Well apparently CG and Ken Pursuit guy BOTH said she wasn't on set... So I'd believe them over anyone else tbh - They've rarely been wrong. 

[statsgirl]

4 hours ago, Lidach said:

In one interview  SA said something about House and how EP want to go where House went later in season: new characters, new team. I just hope Felicity doesn't end like Allison Cameron (written out from show in the middle of season 6). I stooped watching in season 4, when her role was very reduced.  I like her the most. She challenged House's decisions and was his opposite. Writing this because I  watching ep of House right now on TV :) 

That's a really good point.  In s4, the House EPs created a new team of 3 men and 1 woman (dubbed Team New Coke by the fandom) all snarky and rude like House himself, as opposed to mushy and patient-oriented like Wilson and Cameron)  and backburnered Chase and Cameron.  But the audience kept asking for them back and Cameron was >>>>>>>>more popular than the new female character, Thirteen, and so at the start of s6, they dropped her.

The character of House was a hit so they added more characters just like him unlike he ended up nothing special in the crowd.  Adding more masks like Oliver is similar to adding more snarky characters on House, it makes Oliver nothing special which we've already seen in season 3 and 4 when suddenly he couldn't fight any more so the new masks like Laurel and Thea could look good.

ETA:  Do the Arrow writers etc realize that House's new team was a major fail?  The ratings started dropping in s4 and continued dropping till the show mercifully decided to end.

Edited November 9, 2016 by statsgirl

[HighHopes]

2 hours ago, wonderwall said:

Well apparently CG and Ken Pursuit guy BOTH said she wasn't on set... So I'd believe them over anyone else tbh - They've rarely been wrong. 

I was there, and I saw a brunette woman sitting in the spot where Wild Dog was sitting. It could have easily been an extra/waitress taking a break, but it looked like Curtis was sitting next to her, with Amell across. I also got there about 30 minutes or so before CanadaGraphs so it's possible that they were filming something he didn't see-- who knows. We will find out though when the episode airs, and I will happily admit that I was mistaken if it wasn't Tina and it was just an extra on break. 

[EmeraldArcher]

5 minutes ago, HighHopes said:

I was there, and I saw a brunette woman sitting in the spot where Wild Dog was sitting. It could have easily been an extra/waitress taking a break, but it looked like Curtis was sitting next to her, with Amell across. I also got there about 30 minutes or so before CanadaGraphs so it's possible that they were filming something he didn't see-- who knows. We will find out though when the episode airs, and I will happily admit that I was mistaken if it wasn't Tina and it was just an extra on break. 

I think people have been talking about EBR not being on set, not the actress who plays Tina.

But, it's exciting to get a first-hand account from one of our own, @HighHopes!

[looptab]

That Lemon account was wrong though, wasn't it?

I know we don't know the context of this scene, but ugh.

[BkWurm1]

5 minutes ago, looptab said:

That Lemon account was wrong though, wasn't it?

I know we don't know the context of this scene, but ugh.

Team bonding.  Acceptance.  Context seems clear.

[wonderwall]

6 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Team bonding.  Acceptance.  Context seems clear.

I think this is the most likely thing to happen. Also it makes sense that it's only Curtis and Rene considering it's clear they were the ones the writers wanted to keep. I'm guessing Rory and Evelyn will be gone by 509. Shame. Ragman was so much better than Curtis who's useless tbh and Rene who's annoying a hell.

[EmeraldArcher]

Just now, BkWurm1 said:

Team bonding.  Acceptance.  Context seems clear.

@BkWurm1, I thought I was in the Small Talk thread for a second! :-)

So, we've heard that Tina, Wild Dong, Mr. T-riffic, and Oliver are there.  So, was Artemis just a placeholder as the token female mask until NuCanary was introduced?

For those who are comparing Arrow S5 to House and its new team, I keep wondering who on the new team was that annoying noob, Dr. Chi Park. Tina is obviously 13, and Felicity is clearly Cameron.

[BkWurm1]

Yeah, Ragman will probably find a reason to take his rags and his mission somewhere else and I do honestly expect Evelyn to go to school.  Or maybe get stuck on another earth?  At least they are creative ways to stick these characters on a bus.  

[wonderwall]

1 minute ago, BkWurm1 said:

Yeah, Ragman will probably find a reason to take his rags and his mission somewhere else and I do honestly expect Evelyn to go to school.  Or maybe get stuck on another earth?  At least they are creative ways to stick these characters on a bus.  

Hey it's ok, because Evelyn is the token female newbie, now they'll replace her with another token female newbie :D 

Ugh.

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, EmeraldArcher said:

@BkWurm1, I thought I was in the Small Talk thread for a second! :-)

So, we've heard that Tina, Wild Dong, Mr. T-riffic, and Oliver are there.  So, was Artemis just a placeholder as the token female mask until NuCanary was introduced?

 

I'm not quite to acceptance.  :(

And yes, I do think Artemis was just a place holder token woman.  

[Mellowyellow]

So is there any chance that nucanary will fail epically and get canned?

[BkWurm1]

5 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

So is there any chance that nucanary will fail epically and get canned?

I don't think they will fail at making her character a good fighter, but the rest?  I think there is every chance of an epic fail.  

[insomniadreams88]

7 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

So is there any chance that nucanary will fail epically and get canned?

Even if she does fail, I think they'll try their hardest to  not make it seem like it. I'm expecting someone to start praising her dailies soon to get viewers ready. But then again, she is just recurring, so they could turn it into a "this canary failed, let's try again next season" thing. 

Does anyone know how much of the season is planned/how many scripts are done at this point? I don't think I've ever ready any interview or comments from EPs addressing that kind of timeline from previous seasons. 

[wonderwall]

45 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

So is there any chance that nucanary will fail epically and get canned?

I think that reception to new canary will most likely be apathy. Not a lot of people care about the newbies, it's less likely a random woman/fighter will garner any love. She gets introduced in 511, and because the writers are going to be writing FOR people to like her, they're likely going to fail. Just look at Curtis/Rene who the writers tried to make people like but literally no one is talking about them, they're talking about Rory.

Anyways, because she'll be introduced in 511, I doubt she'll have a lot of characterization other than strong, fighter, angsty... So yeah nothing new to excite people tbh. In fact, maybe she could be the one insta-hero that breaks the camel's back and annoys people with all the new vigilantes. But this is just wishful thinking on my part.

Edited November 9, 2016 by wonderwall

[Mellowyellow]

So based on what you guys know about TV will Curtis and Wild Dong last a while because the writers are in love or will they be canned at some point if the love is not coming from anywhere else?

[wonderwall]

1 minute ago, Mellowyellow said:

So based on what you guys know about TV will Curtis and Wild Dong last a while because the writers are in love or will they be canned at some point if the love is not coming from anywhere else?

I think DC has more of a say. I think they're pushing for Curtis and Wild Dog so they can get more merchandise sales and so they can get new heroes some exposure so they can put them in films. I haven't seen anything from the writers to show me that they love those characters. 

I don't think Curtis has any hope of ever becoming a fan favorite. Rene still has some time to win some love but right now I doubt he'll ever become a fan favorite. I HOPE we'll see them less in 5B and season 6 but I just can't tell you. 

[BkWurm1]

Quote

Does anyone know how much of the season is planned/how many scripts are done at this point? I don't think I've ever ready any interview or comments from EPs addressing that kind of timeline from previous seasons. 

I read somewhere that there are at least four scripts always happening at any time.  (I actually want to say six but I can't find that article to be sure) They are are filming 5-11 now and so 5-12 is in preproduction with the director.  Only stuff related to the filming (like locations and actor availability) would change anything.  5-13  would be going through revisions.  5-14 might be just done or still in the process of.  5-15 would already have its basic plot points plotted but not actually written and 5-16 is probably in the ideas stage where they are brainstorming.  I might be off about 5-15 and 5-16.  

Edited November 9, 2016 by BkWurm1

[Mellowyellow]

2 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

I think DC has more of a say. I think they're pushing for Curtis and Wild Dog so they can get more merchandise sales and so they can get new heroes some exposure so they can put them in films. I haven't seen anything from the writers to show me that they love those characters. 

I don't think Curtis has any hope of ever becoming a fan favorite. Rene still has some time to win some love but right now I doubt he'll ever become a fan favorite. I HOPE we'll see them less in 5B and season 6 but I just can't tell you. 

Who the hell is going to buy merchandise of those 2??? Serious???? Have these people got rocks in their heads? Would people even take merchandise of these 2 for free?

Or are they hoping people will be familiar and buy merchandise when they cast someone better in the movies?

[BkWurm1]

17 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

So based on what you guys know about TV will Curtis and Wild Dong last a while because the writers are in love or will they be canned at some point if the love is not coming from anywhere else?

I think it's likely they could stick around for a long time because they like the masks and even if they clearly aren't connecting to the audience, they can just be shoved in the background and brought out for fights.  

NuCanary, on the other hand I think will either be deemed a success or failure.  They could be delusional in their conclusion, but I think they wouldn't bother keeping her around full time if she wasn't clicking.  

Edited November 9, 2016 by BkWurm1

[statsgirl]

15 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

I think that reception to new canary will most likely be apathy. Not a lot of people care about the newbies, it's less likely a random woman/fighter will garner any love. She gets introduced in 511, and because the writers are going to be writing FOR people to like her, they're likely going to fail. Just look at Curtis/Rene who the writers tried to make people like but literally no one is talking about them, they're talking about Rene.

Do you mean talking about Rory?  I wonder what they're thinking, or even if they are thinking about it, since Rory/Ragman is generally the most liked of the noobs and Rene the least.

One of the things this show used to do really well in the early seasons is figure out which characters were working and which weren't, and play up the former and drop the latter (except for Laurel).  Right now, the most disliked noob is a toss-up between Curtis, who they ruined from last season, and Rene, who just comes off as a thug.

I honestly cannot imagine what they are thinking of to introduce a completely new team unless they've run out of ideas and they're just recycling with a new group of people.  If they need another woman on the team, bring back Thea who is completely wasted in the corner of the mayor's office.  Yes, Sara was a success but they struck gold with CL. Nothing they could do made Laurel work and they tried everything. 

If they're trying to sell merchandise, Thea would be a better bet than Tina with whom they would have to start from scratch.

27 minutes ago, EmeraldArcher said:

For those who are comparing Arrow S5 to House and its new team, I keep wondering who on the new team was that annoying noob, Dr. Chi Park. Tina is obviously 13, and Felicity is clearly Cameron.

I don't recognize that name.  I'd say Rene = Foreman, who although he wasn't a noob, was still the least liked of the original team and the only one who stayed on.  Kutner and Taub were kind of interchangable although I'd say Kutner = Curtis because he was said to have a good heart.  I like Rory better than Taub though.

[looptab]

Question: is Curtis really that disliked, or is this just a view gathered from here and around Twitter? I haven't been reading comments sections on any other sites lately.

Plus, may I say, I'm just really confused by this "It's DC's fault"/"It's WB's fault/It's CW's fault" talk. It seems to change at every turn, haha.

[wonderwall]

12 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Do you mean talking about Rory?

Yes. Whoops! Seriously they need to come up with names that don't all sound alike

[BkWurm1]

Quote

Question: is Curtis really that disliked, or is this just a view gathered from here and around Twitter? I haven't been reading comments sections on any other sites lately.

I don't recall him getting a lot of praise in the reviews, but nothing super negative either.  Some stuff like saying they thought he worked better in the lair but I think he still has left over good will from last year.  I know I do for him.  

I'm willing to start liking him again if they tweak the way he's written.  I guess if I had to guess I wouldn't say Curtis is vastly disliked, just that there's a recognition that the way he's being written right now isn't going so well.   Maybe once Curtis stops floundering, he'll be easier to like again.  

[Chaser]

I'd say Curtis falls more into the apathy category. He doesn't seem to inspire much enthusiasm. It's like people like him but they aren't sure why he is there so they can't get excited. 

[statsgirl]

It's also that he's saying things to Oliver that only someone who has known him longer, like Diggle or Felicity or Thea, should be allowed to say.  And a 'why is he fighting and getting a mask

The Buddy TV poll had him at or near the bottom  on liking. And comments on general TV sites don't like him much this season, although that is a very arbitrary  sample.

[wonderwall]

2 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Who the hell is going to buy merchandise of those 2??? Serious???? Have these people got rocks in their heads? Would people even take merchandise of these 2 for free?

Or are they hoping people will be familiar and buy merchandise when they cast someone better in the movies?

I guess it's easy to believe that masks = good merch sales? Although IDK why one would think this... Because apparently Felicity Smoak merch sells really well so you don't need a mask to sell merch. 

[Velocity23]

EBR rarely films outside the studio. So i would guess all her filming is inside.

[Ophanim]

4 hours ago, wonderwall said:

I don't think Curtis has any hope of ever becoming a fan favorite. Rene still has some time to win some love but right now I doubt he'll ever become a fan favorite. I HOPE we'll see them less in 5B and season 6 but I just can't tell you. 

It will all fall to PR and their "paid" media machinery, like TV Guide, ET and other media outlets who love masks *ComicBooks sites*. It's transparent, at least to me. I read one article where LL was called fan favorite, and I was like "whaaa, when? how?...why... ?"then I saw where is article posted and it  was all clear.  So if we suddenly get articles about certain characters, we will know EPs want them for longer in the game. So far we got like 5 Wild Dog actor interviews, few with Curtis guy, and I didn't read any, just don't care for them, currently.

The point is, EPs constantly changing own mind about ST, so whatever they said in the beginning, at the end it will probably be different story, as we already witnessed many times.  

Edited November 9, 2016 by Lidach
I am realy bad at grammar, sorry guys! I'm trying, just like Oliver *bad comparison

[tv echo]

Remember these tweets by Brian Ford Sullivan back in July?...

Quote

-- On Jul. 22, 2016, Brian Ford Sullivan tweeted: "Just to add (and it's #SDCC so I'm feeling spicy), there seems to be a narrative building that with all these new castings, we've lost ... sight of our core characters Dig, Felicity, Thea, Lance, etc. Nothing could be further from the truth. If anything, these new people ... are giving us an opportunity to see them in a different light and tell stories we couldn't have without them. I would love to give you ... 'news' on what's happening with Dig, Felicity, Thea, etc. this season but there's big spoilers involved. Trust me when I say that ... what's happening with them is in keeping with their respective emotional fallouts from last season, whether it be Dig killing Andy, ... Felicity and Havenrock, Lance losing Laurel, etc. Big stuff is coming for all of them. Can't wait for you to see! #ArrowSeason5." (briforsul tweets, page 40 of Spoilers thread)

And here's the source of SA's House quote...

Quote

-- SA: "It's something I really hope we lean into and we're beginning to - we are. We're focusing a lot on, you know, the establishment of - of, uh, new characters. I was actually speaking with Greg Berlanti and, um - yesterday. He was talking about - one of the shows that he really admired as a viewer was House. And - I mean, I really like that show a lot too. And after three or four seasons, they basically brought in a new team. They kept people from the previous team and they were still integral to the story, but it really gave it an injection of new blood, because you never know when you're going to strike lightning in a bottle with a character and it's going to breathe new life into a show - which is something that is necessary when you get to Episode 99, Episode 100. So, uh, I'm excited for that."  (Fan Fest Orlando, Sep. 17, 2016: Video of SA & DR panel, page 44 of Spoilers thread)

Edited November 9, 2016 by tv echo

[BkWurm1]

-

Quote

On Jul. 22, 2016, Brian Ford Sullivan tweeted: "Just to add (and it's #SDCC so I'm feeling spicy), there seems to be a narrative building that with all these new castings, we've lost ... sight of our core characters Dig, Felicity, Thea, Lance, etc. Nothing could be further from the truth. If anything, these new people ... are giving us an opportunity to see them in a different light and tell stories we couldn't have without them. I would love to give you ... 'news' on what's happening with Dig, Felicity, Thea, etc. this season but there's big spoilers involved. Trust me when I say that ... what's happening with them is in keeping with their respective emotional fallouts from last season, whether it be Dig killing Andy, ... Felicity and Havenrock, Lance losing Laurel, etc. Big stuff is coming for all of them. Can't wait for you to see! #ArrowSeason5." (briforsul tweets, page 40 of Spoilers thread)

Anyone else now realize that the perception was pretty close to the truth and that the "can't tell you cause of spoilers" was a huge fat oozing pile of crap? 

[insomniadreams88]

2 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Anyone else now realize that the perception was pretty close to the truth and that the "can't tell you cause of spoilers" was a huge fat oozing pile of crap? 

Yep. Felicity having a boyfriend? Spoiled at SDCC. Felicity's reaction to Havenrock? I wasn't surprised it had more to do with Rory than anything else. Thea taking care of mayoral business for Oliver? Also spoiled at SDCC. Oliver and Lyla breaking Diggle out of prison and him being a fugitive now wasn't spoiled (that I know of), so there is that? Unless there's something big planned for these characters in the coming episodes, I'm just confused about that statement. 

[BkWurm1]

11 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Oliver and Lyla breaking Diggle out of prison and him being a fugitive now wasn't spoiled (that I know of), so there is that?

But we were worried right off about the core characters being forgotten and Diggle might as well have not been in the first episode.  And we did know he was going to find some kind of trouble while in the military, just not the details.  Given that he now back at the bunker and he's still not being used with the other core characters, I still consider him sidelined.     

[insomniadreams88]

Just now, BkWurm1 said:

Given that he now back at the bunker and he's still not being used with the other core characters, I still consider him sidelined.     

True, and with everything else going on, I wonder when they're going to have the time to actually do something so he's not a fugitive and stuck in the bunker all the time. I wouldn't be surprised if it happened off-screen, if during, say, a time jump between episodes at some point, they just suddenly go, "hey, Diggle's a free man again. The military figured out who the real bad guys are and there are zero consequences to breaking him out of prison." 

[tv echo]

I was especially struck by this part of SA's quote: "They kept people from the previous team and they were still integral to the story, but it really gave it an injection of new blood, because you never know when you're going to strike lightning in a bottle with a character and it's going to breathe new life into a show."

Ever since they inadvertently struck lightning in a bottle with EBR's Felicity in S1, they've been trying to do it again and again.  I think they did it with CL's Sara/Canary in S2. The EPs believe they did it with EK's Curtis in S4. This season, I see them intentionally trying to strike lightning in a bottle with RG's Wild Dog - and most likely with the Tina character in 511 if she becomes NuCanary.

But here's the thing... lightning strikes unexpectedly, it can't be forced.

Edited November 9, 2016 by tv echo

[EmilyBettFan]

Yup it was organic with I'm gonna say David's Ramsey and Emily Bett. A little bit with Sara but the other ones are forced.

Edited November 9, 2016 by EmilyBettFan

[arjumand]

9 minutes ago, tv echo said:

I was especially struck by this part of SA's quote: "They kept people from the previous team and they were still integral to the story, but it really gave it an injection of new blood, because you never know when you're going to strike lightning in a bottle with a character and it's going to breathe new life into a show."

Ever since they inadvertently struck lightning in a bottle with EBR's Felicity in S1, they've been trying to do it again and again.  I think they did it with CL's Sara/Canary in S2. The EPs believe they did it with EK's Curtis in S4. This season, I see them intentionally trying to strike lightning in a bottle with RG's Wild Dog - and most likely with the Tina character in 511 if she becomes NuCanary.

But here's the thing... lightning strikes unexpectedly, it can't be forced.

It's almost funny how they keep trying to do it, year after year, and it keeps not happening. I just had a horrible thought - are they going to dig up poor Shado's ghost so that she can tell Oliver he's in love? I remember that flashback, and thinking to myself, wait a second, he loves Poppy? When did this happen? I know she was meant to be a LI, but so much nothing happened that I'd completely forgotten about it.

[Belinea]

15 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

NuCanary, on the other hand I think will either be deemed a success or failure.  They could be delusional in their conclusion, but I think they wouldn't bother keeping her around full time if she wasn't clicking.  

Also she is female, so the choice to get rid off her would be easier.