Spoiler Discussion Thread

[looptab]

I don't think so, no. I'm really interested in what Felicity has told her.

Edited March 26, 2016 by looptab

[nksarmi]

Guys, there is one very good reason why it's Laurel that we aren't discussing - because no one (and I mean NO ONE) has put out any evidence that it is anyone else.  Everything we have heard - and not heard - from the EPs confirms it's Laurel.  And I didn't believe it for a long time, but at this point, if it wasn't her - this would be an undeniably cruel thing to do to KC.  She and Laurel would be met with such unbelievable backlash - it would have seriously negative repercussions for the show.  They don't want to surprise everyone so bad they are willing to sink the damn ship to do it.

 

- Everything points to it being a main character death - someone has been there from the beginning.  Someone they are all sad to say goodbye to (Neither Donna nor Roy qualify for this in my opinion).

- There are lots of indicators that it's a "mask" (which should eliminate Quentin).

- They have said this death with stick and have meaning (which kind of eliminates Malcolm since we would all just be jumping up and down in joy if it was him).

 

So since we know it isn't Oliver since its HIS show, that only leaves Diggle, Thea, and Laurel (Felicity is safe because she isn't a mask and she's the hero's love interest and no Oliver was NOT hallucinating her).

 

Of those three, we have good reason to believe it is not Diggle OR Thea.  Thea is Oliver's last remaining relative (excluding the kid) and they were always setting her up to be Speedy and she has a direct tie to Malcolm (whom the show loves).  And mostly, Oliver would not be so calm if it was her - he would have been raging mad and Felicity would not have to push him to kill someone - nothing on Earth would be holding him back if that was the case.

 

I hate to bring this up, but it's true - with as much criticism as Flarrowverse shows get about their use of "people of color" - they are not going to kill Diggle.  Then you add in the Lyla and Argus connection and they wouldn't want to kill his character.  His character serves a purpose, gives them stories to tell - there is no way that it's him.  Plus he's Oliver's best friend and only true male confidant.  And frankly, Diggle has to live if John Diggle Jr. is going to be born and that's as good a sign to me as anything else that Diggle's not in the grave.

 

So yea ALL signs point to Laurel.  I remained in denial that they would do it until it became really clear it's her.  And they aren't even trying to red herring it anymore.  The show might be telling us Quentin's life is in danger but nothing outside of the show is telling us it's anyone else.  Neither the EP's nor the cast are faking it well.  So at this point it's pretty clear that if this is a bait and switch - people would be outrageously angry if it was someone else.  Why risk your show for that?  Why setup your lead female to be hated like that?

 

No way.  If it wasn't her, someone would be denying it or at least giving hints that it could be someone else.  The complete silence on the matter seems to validate the suspicion. 

[Sunshine]

I expect Laurel to get a heroic death. I have to wonder if it will be a situation where she goes it alone instead of contacting and/or waiting for the rest of the team to arrive.  She's been known to act impulsively on other occasions.  Assuming it's Merlyn/Darhk associated, she would be in over her head. If they have hostages, etc it would make sense to let them escape and go after them with assistance.  Anyway, this would tie into Felicity's reason for leaving Oliver being his default to go it alone. This was on display in 4.16 when he went after Cupid and told Diggle to stay with Thea.  It would give Oliver an example of what happens when people insist on handling hard stuff alone which should push his growth.

[BkWurm1]

I'm still curious about how they handle her death if she dies as the BC. Do we just fanwank that they find her wherever and swap out her outfit? If they are killing a mask, it seems like a cop out not to kill her IN the mask, but logistically, that's complicated. Very curious.

[lemotomato]

If LL dies as BC, maybe they'll just go with revealing her as BC to the public. That way she's doubly heroic: as Laurel the lawyer, who faced down DD in court, and as BC, who presumably gets killed doing something brave and selfless.

[Belinea]

I am 99% sure that the death is LL but I am curious to see how people who either only watch casually or who love BC are going to react. Additionally, I am curious to see how the EPs will spin the death. Will it be  'it is the actor's own decision to move on' or will it be 'we ran out of stories to tell'? 

Edited March 26, 2016 by Belinea

[lemotomato]

There's also the "contract was up" excuse. They kind of used that for writing off Roy.

[apinknightmare]

I don't think there needs to be an excuse like that, since we've known from the start of the season that someone was going to die - I they already pretty much gave away the reason - to "raise the stakes" - since so many people have come back to life. I'm not sure they'd ever explain it in terms of why Katie herself had to leave, more like in-show reasons why they chose Laurel/BC. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

I can't imagine LL being outed as the BC, because that would put the spotlight on Oliver and the team. Who does the BC run around with? The Green Arrow, a tiny chick in red calling herself Speedy, a black guy with a hideous face mask calling himself Spartan ... oh hey, there's Oliver Queen and his pint-sized sister Thea with their black head of securi -- wait!

 

So yeah, LL will most likely be outed as BC :P

[Hipkarma]

THIS^^^ It's good to come here and be not alone in my cynicism.  

[ArrowFan]

I can't imagine LL being outed as the BC, because that would put the spotlight on Oliver and the team. Who does the BC run around with? The Green Arrow, a tiny chick in red calling herself Speedy, a black guy with a hideous face mask calling himself Spartan ... oh hey, there's Oliver Queen and his pint-sized sister Thea with their black head of securi -- wait!

 

So yeah, LL will most likely be outed as BC :P

 

It's hard to answer that, lol.

 

You're talking about a show that applies logic sometimes and ignores it other times. For example, in the 4x17 comic preview, Thea doesn't seem to know what Felicity's chip is. I mean, did she see Felicity walking and just shrug it off?

[apinknightmare]

It's hard to answer that, lol.

 

You're talking about a show that applies logic sometimes and ignores it other times. For example, in the 4x17 comic preview, Thea doesn't seem to know what Felicity's chip is. I mean, did she see Felicity walking and just shrug it off?

 

Maybe Felicity didn't explain the tech in detail? Thea could know it's a chip, but not know that's the one Brie is looking for - they are in a Tech company after all. Unless Felicity gave her the name of it and told her that it was a one-of-a-kind prototype, then I think it's easy to write that one off until the show gives us some reason not to. But, this show has a whole lot of incurious people on it, so maybe no one asked.

Edited March 27, 2016 by apinknightmare

[apinknightmare]

So, I guess the confusion about Lance flashbacks because of the pic PB posted with hair (filmed before the funeral ep) is cleared up now, since he's in a flashback for LoT in which he has hair? Or am I mixing stuff up?

[Velocity23]

So MG confirmed Talia in the LOT trailer. Since that supposedly happen in the 1950s, could that mean the girl showing up at the funeral in 4x19 with Nyssa is Talias daughter?

[way2interested]

So, I guess the confusion about Lance flashbacks because of the pic PB posted with hair (filmed before the funeral ep) is cleared up now, since he's in a flashback for LoT in which he has hair? Or am I mixing stuff up?

Yep, I'm definitely thinking now that the pic PB posted was for his spot on LoT while the funeral pics were for the flashback funeral. Although I guess that means that the non-Oliver flashbacks are now just in 419 with the past funeral and it's still Oliver flashbacks for 418? Or was there other news about them filming a flashback scene with Laurel and Lance for 418?

 

So MG confirmed Talia in the LOT trailer. Since that supposedly happen in the 1950s, could that mean the girl showing up at the funeral in 4x19 with Nyssa is Talias daughter?

Now I have zero idea of who that girl could even be for 418-419 and what she would have to do with anything. I felt that Taila was a long shot of a guess, but now I guess not. With that option taken away, maybe she is?

[Morrigan2575]

Sorry, catching up after an exhausting Easter. The LoT sizzle reel has a wheelchair Felicity, a Quintin with hair (S1-2?). A Talia Al Ghul from the 50's that is not the girl from 419 (Krissy from SPN).

Am I up to date now or still missing something?

[Starfish35]

I think the Quentin with hair is pre-show, because there's also a scene with pre-boat trip Sara (bangs) handcuffed to his desk.

In the Felicity in wheelchair shot, she's wearing the same green dress she wore in Sins of the Father, so maybe Ray makes a visit during that time.

Also, apparently Caity Lotz dropped a(nother?) hint that she might be in a different costume next season.

https://twitter.com/VladaGelman/status/714192441323028481

And yes, the girl in 419 cannot be Talia, because we're going to see a young Talia in the 50s.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Starfish35

[Morrigan2575]

Thanks for the recap

[thegirlsleuth]

I wonder if they are going to give Sara the Black Canary costume and mantle, "to honor her sister". I always thought she was meant for that role, but if they give it to her I can see the fandom setting itself on fire with endless flame wars as to whether Sara or Laurel are the REAL Black Canary and who is Oliver's true love.

Edited March 28, 2016 by thegirlsleuth

[Starfish35]

I think they are. I would have been reluctant to believe it even a couple of months ago, but now...yeah I think that's what's going to happen.

[Primal Slayer]

I wonder if they are going to give Sara the Black Canary costume and mantle, "to honor her sister". I always thought she was meant for that role, but if they give it to her I can see the fandom setting itself on fire with endless flame wars as to whether Sara or Laurel are the REAL Black Canary and who is Oliver's true love.

It'll just be deja vu for me.

[Chaser]

Are you thinking the name and costume or just the costume?

I could see her going back to wearing her old costume but I honestly can't see them giving her the Black Canary title.

I'm thinking about this in circles, but if they did that, considering that they are now saying that Sara was only the Canary originally, would that make Laurel the first Black Canary and Sara the Black Canary of the Flarrow/LOT universe?

That's a lot of twists and back and forth and I can't see them doing that Laurel fans. That would be a capital F You to both Laurel fans and 'comic' fans. Kill her off and hand the Black Canary to Sara Lance.

I'm all for Sara being The Black Canary but that would be something else.

[ComicFan777]

Does Sara need a costume anymore in Legends?  It seems like she generally wears clothes that match the times that she time travels to.

[thegirlsleuth]

I was thinking she's pick up the Black Canary mantle, too, and was expecting the fandom to set itself on fire if she did, but just picking up the costume would be a good compromise.

[Primal Slayer]

Are you thinking the name and costume or just the costume?

I could see her going back to wearing her old costume but I honestly can't see them giving her the Black Canary title.

I'm thinking about this in circles, but if they did that, considering that they are now saying that Sara was only the Canary originally, would that make Laurel the first Black Canary and Sara the Black Canary of the Flarrow/LOT universe?

That's a lot of twists and back and forth and I can't see them doing that Laurel fans. That would be a capital F You to both Laurel fans and 'comic' fans. Kill her off and hand the Black Canary to Sara Lance.

I'm all for Sara being The Black Canary but that would be something else.

And I can totally see them doing it. They think it'll be cool and heartwarming. But they should've just left her with The Canary with some minor costume alterations since they pretty much dropped the entire reason why she took up the "White" Canary mantle. Her "redemptive" arc lasted for like all of 2 minutes. 

[Starfish35]

It would be ridiculous for her to be known as the "White" Canary while wearing a black costume, and having her go back to being just "The Canary" would be a step backward for the character. So yes, I do believe they will have her take the Black Canary name, and it will be justified by "honoring her sister" or some such thing.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Starfish35

[apinknightmare]

No thanks to any of this.

[Ann Mack]

I don't think Sara should be given the black outfit or the title as "The Black Canary". I may not like Laurel too much but those things should be specific to her character. I can see veering somewhat from the comic books but to completely disregard Laurel Lance (Dinah) and give it to a character that didn't exist is a bit harsh. Now I don't know comics because I don't read them and if there was any variation of a Sara Lance before this iteration of the "Green Arrow"/Arrow then please correct me.

 

I'm sort of over both Canaries and although Sara was good I do believe the show made a mistake by introducing her before establishing Laurel as any sort of skilled fighter. They actually could have used that time to train Laurel!. I think the only reason they bothered to bring Sara into the mix is because they wanted a tie in to the League Of Assassins. 

 

Well I'll stop rambling mainly because I have a lot more to say but don't have the invested energy in Sara or Laurel to type any further. I like Sara I'm just not a big, big, fan and well as for Laurel I do believe the writing failed her making her an unlikable character to most viewers, myself included.

[Primal Slayer]

It would be ridiculous for her to be known as the "White" Canary while wearing a black costume, and having her go back to being just "The Canary" would be a step backward for the character. So yes, I do believe they will have her take the Black Canary name, and it will be justified by "honoring her sister" or some such thing.

Would it really be a step back for her though? She started the show wanting to get away from The Canary but she fell right back into old habits. 

[tarotx]

I think Sara just doesn't need to be white or Black if there is only one Canary. That's why I feel she might go back to Black and Canary. She's in white because Laurel wanted her to see the light but with Laurel's death she might be in a really dark place heading into season two. But this might be better off in the Legend forum. 

 

The conversation Felicity has with Ray seems t be when he's deciding to go off with Rip. I know She's in the same dress as when she had her father arrested but it was maybe filmed the same day?

[nksarmi]

1. I hope they don't go back to the BC costume from season two but modify it if she does go back to black.  Something that it's for Caity to move in.

 

2. I think everyone needs to chill about the BC title - at least two people used the name in the comics.  If they want Sara to pick up that title - I think they can do it in a corny way that will work.

 

3. As others have pointed out, Sara doesn't wear her costume that much on LoT so maybe if she use the BC costume it will only be in present day with Oliver.

 

4. Maybe the tweet is hinting at an episode that reveals a Birds of Prey future where Sara is fighting as BC. :)

[Sakura12]

Sara can call herself the Technicolor Canary for all I care.  As long as she stays as badass as she has been, I will love it. I'm also happy LoT got picked up for a second season because I would not want Sara back on Arrow. That show just ruins it's characters for no good reason. 

[Starfish35]

Would it really be a step back for her though? She started the show wanting to get away from The Canary but she fell right back into old habits.

I think it would. YMMV. Besides, going from the "White Canary" back to "The Canary" would seem like a demotion in importance of sorts, at least the way they seem to think about things on these shows (i.e. a comic "name" is important). They're not going to do that to their LoT female lead. They'd keep her as the White Canary before they took her back to just being "The Canary" again. If they give her a black costume (and that's not guaranteed by any means) she will be the Black Canary. There's not many things on these shows I'm certain of, but I'm certain of that.

In any case, it's likely to have very little effect on Arrow. Whether she's the White Canary or the Black Canary, she will be that on LoT. Making her the Black Canary doesn't mean she's going to come back and rejoin Team Arrow.

ETA: The problem with discussing it in the LoT forum, at least until 418 airs, is that the theory is predicated on Laurel's death, which is a huge Arrow spoiler.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Starfish35

[way2interested]

The conversation Felicity has with Ray seems to be when he's deciding to go off with Rip. I know She's in the same dress as when she had her father arrested but it was maybe filmed the same day?

The only problem I have with that is that the LoT pilot takes place around the 408-409-410 time period. They left in 2016 (day after 410), so it has to be in 410-411, when Felicity was still in the hospital/in recovery back at the loft. It would just seem kind of strange for Felicity to be up for going to her office and giving Ray superhero advice if during that time she doesn't even feel up to helping the team and decides to take more than recommended pain pills. Plus, it seems strange that they would show something that happened during the pilot now, especially since it looks like they went to effort to getting the set and her exact outfit and hairstyle from that episode. 

 

Since we only saw a snippet of their conversation, there's probably more to it, but I do wonder why/how Ray is even talking to Felicity. Maybe LoT is just trying to keep itself within the Arrowverse timeline in a way? I do find it kind of funny that this latter half is including these additional Arrow cameos and comic references like Jonah Hex, but it actually kind of has me worried that they are trying to keep in touch so that Ray and Sara can come back for Arrow's finale, which...I wouldn't really be a fan of.

[foreverevolving]

The only problem I have with that is that the LoT pilot takes place around the 408-409-410 time period. They left in 2016 (day after 410), so it has to be in 410-411, when Felicity was still in the hospital/in recovery back at the loft. It would just seem kind of strange for Felicity to be up for going to her office and giving Ray superhero advice if during that time she doesn't even feel up to helping the team and decides to take more than recommended pain pills. Plus, it seems strange that they would show something that happened during the pilot now, especially since it looks like they went to effort to getting the set and her exact outfit and hairstyle from that episode. 

 

Since we only saw a snippet of their conversation, there's probably more to it, but I do wonder why/how Ray is even talking to Felicity. Maybe LoT is just trying to keep itself within the Arrowverse timeline in a way? I do find it kind of funny that this latter half is including these additional Arrow cameos and comic references like Jonah Hex, but it actually kind of has me worried that they are trying to keep in touch so that Ray and Sara can come back for Arrow's finale, which...I wouldn't really be a fan of.

Maybe they are going back in time to 2016?

[tarotx]

Does Felicity have the same hair style? I think it was up in 4.13 and down on Legends? I think the Time Master assassin comes to kill the legends at earlier times in their lives and perhaps January 2016 is the time they chose for ATOM and sometime before the Gambit is when they chose for Sara. I don't see what other reasons for the legends to be in Star city. 

[Lokiberry]

You know, I don't really care if segments of the fandom set themselves on fire if Sara takes up the mantle of the Black Canary, I still want her to do it. Hell, go the whole nine yards and have her declare she's honoring Laural's memory. Then, kick all kinds of ass and go back to LoT, where half the team is smitten with her.

 

CL is hinting at a costume change, clearly something is going on. It would make no sense for her to stop being the White Canary and randomly become some other superhero. It's gotta be BC.

[way2interested]

Does Felicity have the same hair style? I think it was up in 4.13 and down on Legends? I think the Time Master assassin comes to kill the legends at earlier times in their lives and perhaps January 2016 is the time they chose for ATOM and sometime before the Gambit is when they chose for Sara. I don't see what other reasons for the legends to be in Star city.

She had her hair down in the same outfit after the scene with her dad in 413, and Felicity wearing a similar outfit looking quite adjusted and comfortable enough to give superhero advice in January 2016 the day after she was told she will never walk again just doesn't fit with me.

It's honestly probably not that big of a deal, like Cisco's cameo, but I am just curious about the when/how along with the why since LoT seems to be highlighting the Arrow connections this season.

[ComicFan777]

Personally, I think I'm missing the point of why Sara would change her costume and become the Black Canary to honor Laurel.  Laurel gave Sara her the White Canary costume and bestowed her her new superhero name.  If Sara changes that, doesn't it throw away or erase Laurel's good intentions?  I would think what would really honor Laurel is for Sara to be the best version of herself - being the person Laurel believed she could be which is the White Canary.

[Lokiberry]

Personally, I think I'm missing the point of why Sara would change her costume and become the Black Canary to honor Laurel.  Laurel gave Sara her the White Canary costume and bestowed her her new superhero name.  If Sara changes that, doesn't it throw away or erase Laurel's good intentions?  I would think what would really honor Laurel is for Sara to be the best version of herself - being the person Laurel believed she could be which is the White Canary.

Yeah, I don't actually care if she's honoring Laurel or not; I just think it would be funny if she said it since that was Laurel's excuse for SWFing her entire life. With CL's hints, they're going to do something, and making her BC is the only thing that makes sense.

[ComicFan777]

Yeah, if Sara gets the black costume, it would be BC.  It feels like she would be pulling a Laurel if she ends up taking the BC title and the costume - I just think that Sara is better than that.

[looptab]

I just think that if that's what's going to happen, Caity Lotz not so subtly hinting at costume changes is not that different from KC's grin during the jacket scene at the end of S2 and everything she said in interviews afterwards. I'm sad to say it's just as shitty.

I don't even care if she takes the BC mantle, I just can do without the clamoring for her to come back to Arrow.

[tarotx]

Sara is my favorite female character (with Moira) so I would love her back on Arrow. LOL but I just got in a semi fight with a Laurel fan and a Felicity fan angry at the thought of Sara coming back to Arrow as Black Canary. The two of them supporting each other. Never thought I would see the day....I know tangent but it literally had just happened and it was weird. I guess that is how s2 was in the fandom?

 

I don't see how Caity talking about a change in costumes is the same as not being able to do her Job and be her character on the show unlike when KC was being KC on the show. Any way I took it the first time Caity hinted and this time just as a wink to her fans that she will be in season 2 so don't worry. Plus Sara's fans kind of hate the white Canary costume-well the off white color. 

Edited March 28, 2016 by tarotx

[Starfish35]

Yes, the White Canary costume is really super fugly - I don't know who thought that ugly cement color was a good idea. Caity's a beautiful woman and it is so unflattering on her. So who knows, maybe they're just fixing the White Canary costume.

White or Black Canary though, Sara has her own show. I'm not sure why anyone would be clamoring for her to come back to Arrow as more than a guest star, unless her show was cancelled. Which it wasn't.

[Chaser]

I have zero problems with Sara making appearances in Arrow. With Laurel gone, I get to see her interact with characters I care about.

A Canary doesn't work full time in Arrow, but this is something I could really enjoy. I was always disappointed that they didn't show us a good Sara and Felicity friendship. It would be nice to see that happen. I would also like a Thea and Sara scene of them talking about what happened.

[tarotx]

I don't know anyone clamoring for Sara back on Arrow full time. I want her back but just as a guest star. Even if LOT was cancelled I wouldn't want her on full time. Canary is just too kickass a character to be a side kick. 

Yes, the White Canary costume is really super fugly - I don't know who thought that ugly cement color was a good idea. Caity's a beautiful woman and it is so unflattering on her. So who knows, maybe they're just fixing the White Canary costume.

White or Black Canary though, Sara has her own show. I'm not sure why anyone would be clamoring for her to come back to Arrow as more than a guest star, unless her show was cancelled. Which it wasn't.

Edited March 28, 2016 by tarotx

[wonderwall]

I don't see LoT getting cancelled anytime soon if other shows with a rating of 0.4 or less can make the cut. And if it does get cancelled, I hope that the Flarrow universe doesn't lose Sara altogether. I'd like her to be a recurring guest on Arrow and maybe float her way between Flash and Arrow. 

 

I don't really trust the writers to bring Sara back full time because I honestly don't think they could handle bringing the Canary back without sidelining other characters. There is a precedent for it.

[looptab]

Sara is my favorite female character (with Moira) so I would love her back on Arrow. LOL but I just got in a semi fight with a Laurel fan and a Felicity fan angry at the thought of Sara coming back to Arrow as Black Canary. The two of them supporting each other. Never thought I would see the day....I know tangent but it literally had just happened and it was weird. I guess that is how s2 was in the fandom?

 

I don't see how Caity talking about a change in costumes is the same as not being able to do her Job and be her character on the show unlike when KC was being KC on the show. Any way I took it the first time Caity hinted and this time just as a wink to her fans that she will be in season 2 so don't worry. Plus Sara's fans kind of hate the white Canary costume-well the off white color. 

Haha, the world is full of surprises :) Anyway, ok, maybe the jacket scene was a bad example, but I still got a gloating vibe from Caity that I can't say I like - should the fact that she'll become BC be more than just spec.

 

And maybe there is not much clamoring for her to come back full time on Arrow, but watch as soon as Laurel dies. I'm okay too with some appearances, and I'm aware that she's on Legends. But so many people would not let that stop them, haha.

Edited March 28, 2016 by looptab

[Midnight Lullaby]

I doubt LoT is going to get cancelled any time soon. It's the third CW show at the moment.

I don't want Sara back on Arrow because although I have no issues with her as a character having a Canary on the team has always the result of pushing Diggle in the sidelines, it happened with her in S2 and with LL in S3 and I'd take Diggle over both the Canary sisters any day.

I haven't watched the video so I don't know what Caity's tone was or if she was implying something but couldn't it be that they are making changes to her current costume (that looks uncomfortable to me) and improving it? Like it happened with the Flash and GA suit? The last one wasn't really an improvement but you get the idea, LOL

I don't even care if they make her BC because not being a LL's fan I wouldn't feel insulted but I'd find the change of costume to honor her sister repetitive and a bit ridiculous at this point after LL did the exact same thing.

[spartan]

caity said played a new version of SARA , WHAT IS YOU COULD SEE IN THE TRAILER OF legend, therefore has nothing to do with death of laurel