Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Ann Mack]

Since 4x18 is being talked about here is a photo someone posted on Twitter. Without a time/date stamp its impossible to know the actual time this happened but it is suppose to be from the reshoot!

 

https://twitter.com/Meg_louise15/status/705914661531684865

 

 

[wonderwall]

While I never liked Laurel nor have I ever thought she was a good character (shocker, right?!) I think that her fans deserve for their favorite character to have a good send off for closure especially after how terribly Laurel has been treated as a character on the show (because let's be real, the writers never really cared enough about her to give her any good arcs). 

Edited March 5, 2016 by wonderwall

[lemotomato]

Since 4x18 is being talked about here is a photo someone posted on Twitter. Without a time/date stamp its impossible to know the actual time this happened but it is suppose to be from the reshoot!

 

https://twitter.com/Meg_louise15/status/705914661531684865

 

 

It's a screencap from a vine video posted by Bamford. It's most likely from today, because he was tweeting earlier today about Cigar Fridays on set

[catrox14]

If KC is being a pain in the ass BTS and that is why she's being fired, does her character still deserve a good send off?

[nksarmi]

If KC is being a pain in the ass BTS and that is why she's being fired, does her character still deserve a good send off?

 

The fans of the character do though I don't know how they stayed fans through the horrific story telling.

[Primal Slayer]

If KC is being a pain in the ass BTS and that is why she's being fired, does her character still deserve a good send off?

Yes. Laurel is not Katie. Though the rumors of her being a pain are beyond laughable to me and nothing to put towards it.

[catrox14]

The fans of the character do though I don't know how they stayed fans through the horrific story telling.

 

I'm really starting to wonder IF KC is such a problem child that she was unwittingly contributing to her character's demise. Like when they decided to remove love interest from the equation but she is still talking about Laurel and Oliver as a possible relationship, maybe that made the writers jobs harder, for example.  That is to say, they are writing for one thing but she's baiting something else.  And maybe her acting was not up to expectations if she can't even get a scene correct (like the inappropriate smile when Sara was leaving again for the LoA).  And they kept trying new things but none of it was sticking so it just made everything worse.

 

Just my ponderings

Edited March 5, 2016 by catrox14

[Morrigan2575]

Pretty sure that's Atlin in the pic with Bambam

[AyChihuahua]

Laurel deserves a good send off since she's been on the show since day 1. They already treat her as an afterthought majority of the time this season, I don't care who it would be who got killed, any of them would deserve a good send off.

Not Malcolm. He should be fed to pigs.

[Chaser]

It's possible KC was never onset. Everything was shot with the double.

[Primal Slayer]

I'm not getting my hopes up at all until I see her with other cast memebers.

[wonderwall]

I'm not getting my hopes up at all until I see her with other cast memebers.

Even then I probably wouldn't because it might be an old photo... 

[Ann Mack]

Pretty sure that's Atlin in the pic with Bambam

Yes the person who posted the tweet said it was Atlin.

[foreverevolving]

Yes the person who posted the tweet said it was Atlin.

It is Atlin.. you can see the facial structure!

Also.. I find the BC mask far more fitting to Atlin's face than on Katie

Edited March 5, 2016 by foreverevolving

[EmilyBettFan]

You know Felicity so far has had many heroic moments against the big bads of all the seasons. Against Meryln with disabling one of the earthquake machines, curing Slade for him to be equal to Oliver in fighting and saving Oliver from his great fall against Ra's and the shooters. Not to mention all the other times she offered herself as bait.

She has more heroic moments than Thea and Laurel combined.

Edited March 5, 2016 by EmilyBettFan

[spartan]

I'm not getting my hopes up at all until I see her with other cast memebers.

I AM AGREE THAT I THINK NEXT WEEK IS BEING AN INDICATION? DESPITE IT CAN POSTER old pics, when the episode 20 and 21 begin we will see

[sadfangirl]

I have no inside knowledge of Arrow (but do have a little bit of knowledge on how film and TV sets work), but I think we can work the reasons for KCs alleged firing.

 

If you look at KC's behaviour at Cons over the last 6 months, she's habitually late for panels and signings - and I've seen a few comments on twitter from people asking if she was drunk (at a morning panel). She even cancelled a Con appearance a few weeks ago, citing work (which the Con announced) then she had to backtrack because she went to New York Fashion Week instead. This was like a day or two before the Con.

 

Her behaviour for the last year has been strange. From not acknowledging her existence (except to shade her) KC is suddenly best friends with EBR (arguably the most popular female on the show). It must have stung KC to watch a day player come in and become the female lead and love interest on the show (except for billing). Especially all the praise that the producers and the suits put on EBR, saying things like "Arrow wasn't Arrow until Felicity joined the team". 

 

From what I do know about sets, any delay can cause serious problems. Shows like Arrow only have a set amount of time to get things onto film. And if someone doesn't show up on time that can be chaos. I can see some of the other cast members, and the crew especially, really resenting that type of behaviour. A 12 hour day can become a 16 hour day - no-one wants that.

 

If you want more clues at what the crew think have a look at the instagram account for the production office. I don't think there is one photo of KC, and they never mention her. EBR and JB seem to be the ones they like the most, they have the most photos. 

If she's gone, I'm glad. She takes up time I'd rather they spent on Felicity and Diggle. And I'd love to see Lyla more often - I can believe she's a total badass. 

Edited March 5, 2016 by sadfangirl

[bijoux]

I checked 4x11. Dig's wearing a dark shirt and pant. No camo and definitely no helmet in those scenes. I guess KC's pic means we'll be seeing Andy again this season then.

[dtissagirl]

Do we put Andy back on the "him" list?

[bijoux]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

I guess I'd need for the request to come from Dig in that case. And I'm not sure why it would fall on Oliver then. It's not like Andy's whatever Malcolm's supposed to be so that only Oliver can (presumably) take him down.

[FurryFury]

I really don't think Laurel deserves a big heroic death.  She stole her sister's life so her death should be similar. TWINSY!) She can be shot with arrows, bounced off a dumpster, dragged through the city, buried, dug up, put into the Lazarus Pit, resurrected and then has LP madness and kills herself.

And I thought I hated Laurel.

[looptab]

I have to say, now that we know that Laurel is the one in the grave, I don't know if I want Oliver to kill the "him" responsible for her death, haha.*

But, do we think that Oliver will, indeed, kill him? Or will he ultimately decide against it? 

 

*He should send him flowers.

Edited March 5, 2016 by looptab

[Morrigan2575]

I keep hoping that the "him" is Malcolm and that S4 ends with Oliver killing Malcolm

[ComicFan777]

As far as this season goes, I think Malcolm will get away.  As much as I would like Malcolm to be killed, I am guessing Oliver will ultimately try to find a different way, assuming the writers let work his way towards being a superhero because superheroes generally don't kill people but bring them to justice.  Malcolm is his nemesis, so he will always be a thorn in his side - I don't think we'll ever see the last of him.  He will always be the one Oliver would like to kill, but never seems to pan out.

Edited March 5, 2016 by ComicFan777

[dtissagirl]

I can't hope for Malcolm dying anymore because I've already been gifted with Laurel's death. The TV gods are never that good to me.

 

And this week Agent Carter already gave me the ultimate gift of finally allowing me to watch

someone shoot Chad Michael Murray in the face. I've only been waiting for that to happen since Gilmore Girls/Dawson's Creek

.

Edited March 5, 2016 by dtissagirl

[tv echo]

I dunno, guys.  Even though the evidence is strong that Laurel is the one in the grave, I've been surprised by the show before. So I'm still taking a wait-and-see attitude.

[Ann Mack]

I can't 100% get on the Laurel IS In The Grave train because this is Arrow and they ALWAYS screw up. I won't be disappointed if it's Laurel but this show has chosen the wrong door so many times that I think I'll just stand back and not get slapped in the face by it. Here's hoping that the writers, EPs, or whomever was in charge chose wisely (and by that I do mean Laurel )

Edited March 5, 2016 by Ann Mack

[kismet]

I'm content being on the LL is in the the Grave Train because the ride has been enjoyable so far. It's sad and disappointing at times, because even though I haven't liked LL since s1, it is sad that the only way they seem to be able to solve their problems is by killing them off. But overall, it just feels a little hopeful to think that the writers have been permitted to let go of a character they stopped writing for a few seasons ago. I think it just gives them a freedom. It might all blow up in my face if we are all wrong ~ but at least its a better way to pass the hiatus than hating on ARROW for the idiocy that was the BMD.

[Ann Mack]

Oh I agree that Laurel's purpose on the show is pretty much non-existent. I have no problem with her being written out of the show. I have enjoyed the comments and reasons as to why her being in the grave wouldn't upset the flow of the show and could/would by comic books fans standards, (I'm not big into comic books) be a game-changing event. I'm actually 99.9% that they did finally decide IMO to do the best thing for her character (if they're not going to do any significant character growth or give any concerns to how they write for her as a part of the Team, show or individually) is to give her a heroic death be done with it and move on. But will they? These are the same folks who have thought some of their "epic", "game-changing" story lines were great while the audience probably were going WTF was that? But whoever it is the conversations and speculations until it happens are great.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Ann Mack

[statsgirl]

I want Laurel to have a heroic death because I think her fans and season 4 Laurel deserves it.  But if it's not her in the grave, I hate to think what the backlash against the character is going to be like.

 

While I never liked Laurel nor have I ever thought she was a good character (shocker, right?!) I think that her fans deserve for their favorite character to have a good send off for closure especially after how terribly Laurel has been treated as a character on the show (because let's be real, the writers never really cared enough about her to give her any good arcs). 

I disagree, I think they tried everything but the kitchen sink to give her a variety of good arcs and have her fit into the show.  In season 1 she was the crusading lawyer and love interest of the two hunky guys on the show.  But that didn't work and so in season 2 they gave her dramatic arcs, first with the drinking and pills and then with finding out Sara is alive and later that Oliver is the Arrow.  But that didn't work either (remember how we couldn't tell in the scene if she was supposed to be drunk or not, or her reaction when Slade told her Oliver's secret?) and meanwhile what was working on the show was Team Arrow. So Sara was killed blue dead (they thought) so that Laurel could take her place on the Team in an action role.  And you know how well that worked out.

 

Compare that to Willa, who basically played snotty brat for season 1, was left out in most of season 2, and had her season 3 arc taken from her by Malcolm, Oliver and Ra's.  And yet Thea just keeps getting better and more popular.

Edited March 5, 2016 by statsgirl

[foreverevolving]

I disagree about trying everything for Laurel.. in my opinion all of their arcs were a variation of the same thing, the only thing they haven't done with her was make her go full blown evil or a different Comic book character. That could have been the thing that would had saved her character. I mean it would have caused the comic purist a cardiac arrest but.. no one really cares.

[TwistedandBored]

LMAO!

 

"Is Laurel in the grave or is she not" speculation has been way more entertaining than anything Laurel has done onscreen. 

[lemotomato]

So about whether KC is going to show up at HVFF Chicago: I think she's going to go. I think it would fairly easy to deflect any questions about who's in the grave (she's an actress, after all) and if she's on a panel, there's stuff she can talk about because of the prosecuting DD storyline. Besides, it's not like she can use the old "filming commitments" excuse for cancelling.

[wonderwall]

So about whether KC is going to show up at HVFF Chicago: I think she's going to go. I think it would fairly easy to deflect any questions about who's in the grave (she's an actress, after all) and if she's on a panel, there's stuff she can talk about because of the prosecuting DD storyline. Besides, it's not like she can use the old "filming commitments" excuse for cancelling.

This is KC we're talking about. Talking about the show is never easy for her. She always puts her foot in her mouth.

[lemotomato]

This is KC we're talking about. Talking about the show is never easy for her. She always puts her foot in her mouth.

But it'll work to her advantage this time. If anyone asks her a direct question, she'll just deflect by rambling about twins and soulmates and female women.

Edited March 6, 2016 by lemotomato

[EmilyBettFan]

Female women lmfao!

[Sakura12]

I think the biggest nail in the coffin for Laurel is, the not having a love interest. While that's the not most important aspect of a character. Not having one pretty much shows that your shelf life is running out.

 

Everyone has one even if they are not the focal point or just having a potential LI being set up. Diggle's married, Curtis is married, Thea has Alex and Roy whenever he pops back up, obviously Olicity. Barry has his love interests and Iris whenever they feel like setting that up again, Iris may be getting one, Caitlin has had a few, Cisco had one. Sara has a bunch of potentials, Martin is married, Kendra and Ray are hooking up, from the preview it looks like Jax is making out with someone in the 50's. It doesn't have to last or be important, but a love interest does have to exist. 

[Chaser]

In TV land terms, I agree. A lack of love interest shows a general disinterest in writing a characters personal life. Add to that the fact that it takes 16 episodes to get to her in a courtroom. Her only role has been Quentins Daughter, Saras sister and Team Arrow Member. There hasn't been anything for her. They have expanded on every other characters world but hers.

They wrote her finished. A byproduct of them rushing her to a mask and having little interest in the character.

[Morrigan2575]

I think the biggest nail in the coffin for Laurel is, the not having a love interest. While that's the not most important aspect of a character. Not having one pretty much shows that your shelf life is running out.

I agree but I do find it amusing that every time someone pointed to Lance getting a LI as proof he was safe and that Laurel not having one meant she was in the grave, people on this board turned it around. Lance getting Donna as a love interest surely meant he was in the grave.

Whereas Laurel not having a LI or any real story (at all) aside from being a mask meant she was totally safe.

I think if you look back the signs were there from the beginning it's just that many refused to see them for what they were. All signs pointing to LL were turned around and pointed to Lance instead.

BTW I'm not trying to start anything or point fingers. It's just funny to hear this in the end when prior to the funeral scenes leaking it was the opposite.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[tarotx]

Getting a Love interest late in the game means both in TV land. It depends on how it's handled. I personally thought on a non comic show Laurel would be the one in the grave. I didn't think tptb had the guts to kill a biggist comic character. Lance was the most obvious to kill because we really don't need two "the Law" characters ever since season 1 after Laurel left CNRI. That changed for me when Caity said she was playing a version of Sara she didn't think she would ever see again and then Amanda Waller was shot point blank in the head. Even though Caity probably wasn't talking about being the Black Canary and maybe not even Lance flashbacks, it just made me more open to maybe the tptb might kill Laurel. And while Amanda's not a mask but the way she died just made go-OK comic deaths are back on the table. And of course Marc's recent quotes about comic deaths being on the table. And then the funeral pictures leaked. So yeah I'm at 98% the Laurel's in the grave. I still can't be 100% though for no real reason. I just don't trust the collective creatives...

 

 

I agree but I do find it amusing that every time someone pointed to Lance getting a LI as proof he was safe and that Laurel not having one meant she was in the grave, people on this board turned it around. Lance getting Donna as a love interest surely meant he was in the grave.

Whereas Laurel not having a LI or any real story (at all) aside from being a mask meant she was totally safe.

I think if you look back the signs were there from the beginning it's just that many refused to see them for what they were. All signs pointing to LL were turned around and pointed to Lance instead.

BTW I'm not trying to start anything or point fingers. It's just funny to hear this in the end when prior to the funeral scenes leaking it was the opposite.

[ComicFan777]

Aside from leaked pictures and such pointing at LL's death, it isn't really too surprising though that LL's personal life is put on the back burner this season to allow for others to be focused on.  They have spent a lot of time trying to develop her throughout the last three seasons and now what's important is integrating her into the team and that's what they've been working on for most of the season.  I'm not really too surprised that we see more emphasis on other characters personal lives that we haven't had a chance to see before because more focus was put on Laurel's. A large part of season 1-2, we didn't see anything about Felicity's personal life and just a tiny glimpse in season 3, whereas we saw so much Lance family drama that we didn't want.  Now we focus more on expanding that universe, so it is natural that someone else (LL) personal life might be dialed down a bit for others to shine - Felicity and Diggle in particular.  I wouldn't necessarily take lack of her personal life shown in the show as a large indicator that she is in the grave - she's had dates in every season except for this one (ie. Tommy, DA guy, Blood, WildCat), so not really a flag for me.  

[nksarmi]

Well for Lance, I think the argument was that a broken-hearted Donna would up the emotional feels for the rest of them.  Felicity would be upset because of her mother and therefore so would Oliver.  It kind of made sense after the man-hunt last season and the double agent thing this season (which is actually why I thought Lance was a dead man walking - the redemption story).  You know, have people like him again and be sad that he's dead instead of cheering or saying "served you right."

 

And by the way, if it is Laurel (which seems very, very likely now) than it's just because they want to be "daring" and kill a mask.  Sara's death was reversed and Roy's was fake.  So they have to answer why "innocents" can die on this show but vigilantes are safe.  If they didn't decide they specifically wanted to kill a mask - I think it would be Lance.  And I wouldn't be surprised if he's the next sacrificial lamb - just probably next season instead of this one.

[bijoux]

That changed for me when Caity said she was playing a version of Sara she didn't think she would ever see again 

 

Speaking of, there's been no sign of this on LoT so far? I'm really not sure on which show that is supposed to happen.

[tarotx]

Speaking of, there's been no sign of this on LoT so far? I'm really not sure on which show that is supposed to happen.

LOT was filming episode 12 at the time.

[FurryFury]

AFAIK, there's going to be an episode with LoA and even Ra's on LOT, I guess CL was talking about it. Maybe Sara is going to pretend to be her previous, LoA-era self?

Edited March 6, 2016 by FurryFury

[kismet]

I don't think having a love interest or not is the major key to figuring out who is the grave. People have posted pros & cons of LI/sex signalling the onset of the death toll at various points of discussion this season. And both sides have merit.  

 

But I think the major key in LL not having a LI and it being significant is that it is a larger indicator of her diminishing role in the narrative. The writers are no longer interested (and haven't been for awhile) in writing LL as a multi-dimensional character. Her personal life is no longer important. She is now simply part of the muscle or a plot exposition soundboard. If everybody else's role is expanding and hers is the only one shrinking than that is indicative of something. All she is now is her mask. I'm curious as to how they are going to bring her back into the courtroom... but even that seems ominous because it really feels like its MG's last big hurrah to have ARROW return to the courtroom one last time. A little nostalgia creeping in for his original profession and vision for LL.

 

As for QL, his narrative role has remained about the same, he represents justice and helps TA out in his own way to accomplish the mission of protecting SC. The only major difference is that they made sure to incorporate him further into TA. So in small ways his narrative is expanding. He was invited into the new Lair immediately, he was quickly made a double agent and on top of that, they gave him a LI. But it wasn't just any random LI, they gave him one that further binds & connects him to other main characters. So now if the show kills off all the Lance daughters, there is still a familial or emotionally bonded reason for him to be invested in TA because of his new Smoak connection.

 

For me the biggest reason I always thought it was LL over QL was that while they are loosening the connections LL has with the narrative; they have been tightening the connections with QL. LL's relationship arcs this season are all about finding closure. First with her father (offscreen), than with her sister and finally with OQ. We never see her making new connections. They tell us she is great friends with everybody, but we never see it. Even her scenes with Dig, have been about his storyarc & plot exposition, not their friendship. Meanwhile QL's relationships have been all about growth. He is working with Dig. He is a more direct part of TA. He is being incorporated into missions again. He is having heart to hearts with OQ. He is dating recurring star that has has her own storyline this year and their relationship has also had a mini-story arc with the the whole lying to keep you safe.

 

Now perhaps they are giving his character one big boost before they kill him. But I doubt that, because LL's story arc is following a very similar path to TM, MQ & RH. Where they were insignificant to the overall plot for awhile and then all of the sudden 1-2 episodes before the death they become integral to the story again. If anything, QL's plot line peaked a little to early this season to be considered a grave contender if we follow the pattern of the other major deaths.

Edited March 6, 2016 by kismet

[tarotx]

AFAIK, there's going to be an episode with LoA and even Ra's on LOT, I guess CL was talking about it. Maybe Sara is going to pretend to be her previous, LoA-era self?

Matt Noble, and news article's MG linked, said Ra's is going to be in episode 9 and that was already shot before Caity tweeted her Sara she thought we'd never see again tweet. And the LOA era Sara has been one she and her fans have asked for so thinking that Sara would be the one we never thought we'd see again doesn't seem right in that context. I think it will be pre island in the Arrow Lance Flashbacks episode but we really have no clue.

[kismet]

I wonder if she will get to wear her black "Canary" outfit again in either a flashback, vision/dream or time travel visit. She probably expected to do LoA-era & pre-island era Sara because of the nature of the shows. But I doubt she ever thought she would be asked to wear the Canary outfit again after s3 of Arrow.

[FurryFury]

I think it will be pre island in the Arrow Lance Flashbacks episode but we really have no clue.

 

Wouldn't we get ANY set report if it were to be true, though?

 

I wonder if she will get to wear her black "Canary" outfit again in either a flashback, vision/dream or time travel visit. She probably expected to do LoA-era & pre-island era Sara because of the nature of the shows. But I doubt she ever thought she would be asked to wear the Canary outfit again after s3 of Arrow.

 

I guess I'd take it over Lance flashbacks. Hey, maybe Laurel sees her sister when she dies. I certainly wouldn't mind (I'm still seething over "you have light" stuff in "Canaries").

[tarotx]

Don't we already know there are Lance Flashbacks since Paul Blackthorne posted pictures of him in Flashback wig while filming 4.18 and then there are the Flashback funeral scenes in 4.19? And by Lance I mean "Lance family". Rather Caity films on an Arrow set won't be known unless the actors post pictures since Caity is filming around already? As for as Caity as black Carney, It's definitely on the table as what she meant. That's why I mentioned it in prior post. We really have no spoilers on the matter do we?

Wouldn't we get ANY set report if it were to be true, though?

 

I guess I'd take it over Lance flashbacks. Hey, maybe Laurel sees her sister when she dies. I certainly wouldn't mind (I'm still seething over "you have light" stuff in "Canaries").