Spoiler Discussion Thread

[way2interested]

Flashback for death episode? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  

They did it for Deadshot...but then again, we've also had Felicity, Diggle, and Sara flashbacks, but those weren't explicitly placed near the death episode.  

[Chaser]

Don't know anything about "nanos" but the pregnancy answer makes sense to me. I don't know the wording of the question but the answer is talking about production reasons.

The way I read his answer, Felicity is young therefore there's nothing driving a story to make her pregnant (right now). Additionally, EBR is young and not looking to get pregnant so there's nothing production wise forcing thrm to make Felicity pregnant.

The answer makes sense if they were talking about Felicity having children but I felt the question was more about getting Felicitys opinions on kids in regards to The Kid.

Someone asked MG about the nano tech curing Ray and what it does for the suit and then Felicity. He said the nanos aren't a catch all.

[Orion]

Well there went my dream of a suit for Felicity.  *sigh*

 

To be fair to the people asking for Felicity to get better for stunt scenes I think it's just in response to fond memories of the end of Season 1 and the beginning of Season 2 when we use to get a lot of them, a lack of them last season and this season and the felling that Felicity in a wheelchair is being used to keep her even more isolated down in the lair.  

 

On one hand, I understand those thoughts and on the other hand I've seen a ton of really heart warming replies on Twitter from people who are in wheelchairs that really appreciate that representation.

[AnyoneButYou]

I'm not really sure why Emily being young has anything to do with whether or not Felicity would want kids. Felicity's 27 I think. Emily doesn't need to be pregnant for Felicity and Oliver to have a talk about kids. They're engaged so it would make sense for them to at least discuss whether or not they want kids. Most couples have that discussion at some point before they get married.

Edited February 7, 2016 by AnyoneButYou

[apinknightmare]

 Most couples have that discussion at some point before they get married.

 

Well, luckily it seems like they'll have plenty of time for that, LOL.

[calliope1975]

Who organizes those Felicity trends? I, now, really, really want "Oliver is a douche for lying" to trend world wide. For days and days. This was never about having a relationship with his spawn. This is all about lying. My dream is a blow back so hard MG leaves social media. That's not reality, but I can dream!

[Lady Calypso]

*sighs* Of course MG thinks like this. If anyone else was writing it, there'd probably be no Baby Mama storyline, and even if there was, Oliver would have told Felicity in a heartbeat.

 

MG, this is why people hate Oliver. Because you're blinded by your own biases that you can't allow Oliver to completely grow. He's changed a lot this season and I don't believe that he'd be stuck in this stupid lie if MG wasn't writing it. 

[BunsenBurner]

You guys really don't get it do you?  Marc is still holding a grudge because he wanted LL to be the love of OQ's life on TV and he can't get over that he not only didn't get that but he didn't get the Birds of Prey pilot that he wanted.  He has been taking out his frustration and vengeance ever since TPTB above him told him to go with Felicity!

[Ann Mack]

It really is a shame Marc is trying to make it all about "parenthood". The whole I have 2 children so I completely understand the lie Oliver is telling is just bullshit IMO. Well as a parent wouldn't he also understand a parent who hid a child for 9 years from the other parent really has NO RIGHTS to be making demands upon the parent who NEVER KNEW a child existed? I hate his dumb ass reasoning just so he can get the result he wanted. Shit even Stephen said the "lie was necessary" for the writers to get the outcome they desired. It's an "unfortunate lie" does not seem like a story line the lead character was on board with. I can't blame Stephen I truly think he sees the big picture of how absolutely horrible this looks for Oliver, while I think all Marc sees is a chance for "shock and awe" which I hope backfires beautifully in his stupid face!!

Edited February 7, 2016 by Ann Mack

[lemotomato]

Did I piss off some higher power? Why is MG back on tumblr again? Everything was going so well. ::sigh::

 

I did find this answer amusing:

 

We don’t devise the episodes by coming up with moments and working back from them.  The moments that you love from past episodes came organically out of the story we were telling at the time.  We’ve never worked backwards from a particular “stunt,” y’know?

O rly? Oliver fighting Ra's on a mountaintop and Oliver marrying RaG's daughter just happened organically? Riiiight...

[calliope1975]

O rly? Oliver fighting Ra's on a mountaintop and Oliver marrying RaG's daughter just happened organically? Riiiight...

 

Well, see, MG was reading a Batman comic and then, organically, the same thing magically happened on Arrow. 

[apinknightmare]

I really wish they'd had Oliver throw in what exactly he was doing in Central City. MG wrote that Felicity isn't stalking Oliver, but CC is 600 miles away - even on the high speed rail or whatever that's a long trip back and forth plus whatever time he's actually spending with the kid. Even though Felicity trusts him, I can't imagine he'd repeatedly go back and forth and she wouldn't actually ask him what he's doing there? Unless she's Laurel levels of not curious about stuff in this plot line. Hopefully we find out on the next edition of Lying Liars Who Lie - I don't want it to be a mystery forever!

Edited February 7, 2016 by apinknightmare

[foreverevolving]

So a Sara CL thought she wouldn't play again and they are talking Laurel flashbacks in the writers room. I'm 11 again.

And yes some of those questions are absolutely terrible. Tumblr is such a bad idea.

Not to jinx it but... Laurel in flashbacks and Caity playing a version of Sara she didn't think she'll play could also mean flashback for Lance because he's being killed..

but it seems odd, because if they are talking about a laurel flashback and Caity is already talking about a past sara this means the episodes this moments will be on are different, probably even on different shows...

 

So yay!! to still holding out hope for buckles to buckle and die.

[Lady Calypso]

You know, I am aware that this will never ever ever ever ever EVER happen, but I would have loved if, when the SECRET comes out, Felicity shrugs and says 'Oh, is this it? Oh yeah, Oliver told me right after we defeated Vandal Savage'. I know they, for some reason, have to break up Oliver and Felicity and this is the only semi-plausible way to do it (because they haven't led up to it whatsoever if you take away the BMD equation).

[Morrigan2575]

Did I piss off some higher power? Why is MG back on tumblr again? Everything was going so well. ::sigh::

 

I did find this answer amusing:

O rly? Oliver fighting Ra's on a mountaintop and Oliver marrying RaG's daughter just happened organically? Riiiight...

  

Well, see, MG was reading a Batman comic and then, organically, the same thing magically happened on Arrow.

We have a winner...or 2

[kes0704]

If Oliver is going back and forth to CC in the time since Felcitiy was injured then what happens to her during the time he is away? We've already seen that Oliver has to carry Felicity up and down the stairs in the loft and she is still learning to cope with her disability, so what does she do when he disappears without explanation?

That alone makes him look pretty awful and then you pile on the lies, because it's no longer one lie it's many, many lies. Even if Oliver told Felicity he was going to help Barry, one phone call to Barry or anyone in Star Labs where she asks about Oliver and the jig is up.

I still like Oliver as a character but they are making it really hard to respect him when they continue to have him make such terrible choices. Particularly when it's framed as him honouring a commitment to BM more than he values a commitment he made to Felicity to build a life together, the woman he professes to love and wants to marry.

The whole thing is just so stupid and I'm kind of hoping this whole thing implodes spectacularly. I guess we can look forward to MG doing post-episode damage control interviews and I'm assuming passing part of the blame for the story on to others to try and minimise his role in the disaster.

I will say that I do feel a bit sorry for Stephen though because he knows how this is likely to go down with fans. You could see by the look on his face at HVFF when he answered the question about the lie that he wasn't happy with it but there's not much he can do about it.

Edited February 7, 2016 by kes0704

[Chaser]

I don't think much thought went into the logistics of Olivers CC visits.

[wonderwall]

I don't think much thought went into the logistics of Olivers CC visits.

 

If they could travel to Nanda Parbat every other day then yeah... Oliver can totally go to CC in under 30 minutes

[looptab]

I'm sorry, I just can't help but rage everytime they try to justify the lie. Ughhhh. I'd have appreciated more if he had stopped at 'flawed hero, makes mistake'.

The idea of Laurel flashbacks terrifies me.

[wonderwall]

I'm sorry, I just can't help but rage everytime they try to justify the lie. Ughhhh. I'd have appreciated more if he had stopped at 'flawed hero, makes mistake'.

The idea of Laurel flashbacks terrifies me.

 

To ease your pain, you can think of it as an homage to Laurel's death. And the flashbacks are actually to give Quentin's backstory and how he dealt with Sara's death the first time in contrast to how he's dealing with it now. 

 

As for Guggenheim. He's a simple simple boy. Let's just hope that the writing/acting makes the whole scenario less shitty... Lol who am I kidding? Let's just hope the acting makes all of this less shitty.

Me when Guggenheim is on tumblr:

 

 

[Chaser]

I wonder what Laurel flashbacks would consist of. Pre-Gambit or Post-Gambit?

[thegirlsleuth]

I think they didn't have anyone ask Oliver why he went to Central City so that we, the audience, never see him actively lie on screen. Plausible deniability and all that. I think they think seeing him lie is what will make us lose faith in the character, instead of the morally cockeyed decision making.

[looptab]

Lol. I'll try. But I guess it's a tradition..I hope it's pre Gambit, so we can be blessed with the antichemistry!

[Ann Mack]

Wow that should be laughable if its pre-Gambit. Them trying to have Laurel and Oliver pull off their what 22 year old selves (it wasn't believable the first time around. Now add 4 more years of wear and tear). Ain't enough magic or make-up in the world to make either of them look that young again, just saying.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Ann Mack

[lemotomato]

Actual possibly spoilery info from MG's latest tumbrlfest?

Today I am going to give the following Billy Joel songs, and I would love it if you could associate EPISODE NUMBERS to the song titles I give. "And So It Goes"; "Famous Last Words"; Everybody Has A Dream"; "Honesty"; "This Night"; "You're Only Human"; "She's Always A Woman". Thank you so much, Marc!!

marcguggenheim answered:
Oh, this is fun!

AND SO IT GOES (415)

FAMOUS LAST WORDS (418)

EVERYBODY HAS A DREAM (hard to say)

HONESTY (415)

THIS NIGHT (pretty much every episode of Arrow takes place at night)

YOU’RE ONLY HUMAN (415)

SHE’S ALWAYS A WOMAN (417)

So maybe something about the The Death is happening in 418. 

Edited February 7, 2016 by lemotomato

[statsgirl]

AND SO IT GOES (415)

HONESTY (415)

YOU’RE ONLY HUMAN (415)

Yeah, Felicity finds out in 415.

 

I really hope that the "big decision she and Oliver are going to make at the end of [Episode 413, airing Feb. 10], and it will inform a journey in 414 and 415 that she goes on with respect to how she’s going to handle being in a relationship, from the point of view of somebody who’s in a wheelchair" is NOT that she either can't have kids or doesn't want to have them because she's in a wheelchair (thus antagonizing every person in a wheelchair who has or wants to have kids).  Because if Felicity nixes having a kid with Oliver then it helps to justify that he lied to her in order to have a relationship with William who will now be the only biological kid Oliver has.  I don't want him to get off so lightly.

 

Guggenheim on tumblr is so much fun:

Oliver is a flawed hero. He makes mistakes. And I disagree with you that a lie he’s telling in order to be able to have a relationship with his son makes hm a douche.

Guggie. Mansplainin'.

 

I just had a quick question. Rip's son was named Jonas and Oliver's middle name is Jonas. Coincidence or is there a connection?

That’s a coincidence.  But good catch!

. Anyway, there was something I found very curious. The name of Rip's son. "Jonas". Was that name picked randomly or not?

Thank you so much.

Jonas’ name was not a random selection.  We’ll be revealing its backstory in a future episode this season.

So Rip Hunter's son was not named after Oliver Queen. (I'm disappointed.) I guessit's just that his mother had a thing for the Jonas Brothers.

[jay741982]

Her nixing having a Child doesn't help justify Jack shit IMO. Oliver shouldn't lie period! Guggie is a dumb ass who thinks Oliver should keep his word to a horrible woman who lied to him and took Mommy's hush money and then puts ridiculous demands on him. Fuck off Guggie! Oliver has always told Felicity the truth until this bullshit

[BkWurm1]

Hello Mr. Marc Guggenheim. I have a great doubt. It is true that the actress Katie Cassidy decided to leave? or is it just a rumor? I hope not bother to answer. thanks.

 

Total rumor.  And a false one, at that

 

The tone of MG's answer says to me that nope, there is no way that Laurel is in the grave.  If the truth was they'd canned her, this response would be really tasteless even for him. 

 

Well, it was a beautiful dream while it lasted.

Oliver is a flawed hero. He makes mistakes. And I disagree with you that a lie he’s telling in order to be able to have a relationship with his son makes hm a douche.

 

But he doesn't have to tell the lie to Felicity to see his son!! He's choosing to.  That's why he's not only a douche but an idiot!!!  Grrrrrrrrr. Why doesn't MG get it that he hasn't written an unwinnable situation but rather one with a very obvious solution that he's pretending he can't see.  It feels like someone standing in the rain complaining about getting rained on but refusing to go in the house or use the umbrella and then getting all huffy about obviously since it's raining he has to get wet.  NO HE DOESN'T!!!  

[bijoux]

The tone of MG's answer says to me that nope, there is no way that Laurel is in the grave.  If the truth was they'd canned her, this response would be really tasteless even for him. 

 

Well, it was a beautiful dream while it lasted.

Here's something for you, then. He only says she didn't decide to leave, not that she wasn't asked to leave.

As for the kids answer, all I got was that the kid talk is not the little/big thing WM mentioned happening in 4x13.

[wonderwall]

Heh I'm with bijoux on this one, KC was probably asked to leave, she didn't leave on her own volition. This paired with the fact that the writers are talking about Laurel flashbacks which means they'll likely be in episodes 21-23 means that there's a higher chance a Lance is in the grave considering 20-23 is rarely about side characters and more about taking down the villain (based on past precedent). 

 

Also I always thought what Wendy meant in her interview was that Felicity won't be able to walk down the aisle or have a 'first dance' with Oliver which may be little details but can be very emotional especially for Felicity who has probably thought about her wedding ever since she was a kid (which matches EBRs answer in one of her interviews about Felicity dreaming about her wedding since she was a kid unlike EBR). I don't think we'll see Oliver/Felicity talk about kids anytime soon other than the fact that Oliver has one... 

Also did anyone witness MGs smackdown on tumblr w/ one of his answers? It was hilarious.

Edited February 7, 2016 by wonderwall

[bijoux]

Do you mean about pandering to Olicity fans and throwing fans of Lauriver a bone?

[wonderwall]

Do you mean about pandering to Olicity fans and throwing fans of Lauriver a bone?

 

lol I meant the question about Lexi Alexander :p 

 

But his responses to the response to the pandering to Olicity fans and throwing Lauriver a bone was pretty great too.

[bijoux]

Thanks. I found it now. Aw, so she was asked to do 4x14 after Negret had to drop out. I wonder if there were even more people they asked before they turned to Bamford.

[wonderwall]

Thanks. I found it now. Aw, so she was asked to do 4x14 after Negret had to drop out. I wonder if there were even more people they asked before they turned to Bamford.

IMO Lexi = Antonio >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bamford. I hate how Lexi wasn't asked to return. The best part about 404 apart from Oliver's confrontation with Quentin was the direction. Otherwise it was a thoroughly forgettable episode.

My thoughts regarding the asker is very complicated. But I did appreciate Guggenheim being savage.

Edited February 7, 2016 by wonderwall

[bijoux]

IMO Lexi = Antonio >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bamford.

Absolutely. And she makes sense to direct an episode Negret was originally supposed to do. Turning to Bamford is starting to make more sense, though. Seems like there was no one else.

[Belinea]

Why isn't there anyone on the production side to stop MG when he wants to sabotage his main character because I get that Oliver wants to have this relationship with his son but that particular flaw (lying to loved ones) that he cannot ever outgrow is really not making him look like a hero in my eyes. I mean, at some point shouldn't MG come out and say: Oliver is a liar who lies... deal with it, I don't want him to ever change.

 

As for the EBR is too young stuff. She is also very active and likes sports yet she is in a wheelchair on the show. Her own life and the story don't have to add up and therefore should not be a factor when telling a story. Even though I believe that SA is stoked that Oliver is a father because he likes that about his own life. 

 

Sometimes I also wonder if MG is more fed up with Laurel (and L/O) loving crowd or with the Olicity section. I think it is pretty even sometimes but the questions of some really do give you secondhand embarrassment.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Belinea

[kes0704]

The problem I have with MG saying that Oliver is not wrong to lie in order to have a relationship with his son is that it is only his opinion. The audience is free to apply their own interpretation based on their experiences and value system. If I choose to see Oliver as a douche for lying he can't tell me I'm watching the show wrong because just like he has his opinion, I have mine.

It's not even the initial lie I have a problem with, I can forgive that and rationalise that Oliver was driven by what Barry told him about Felicity's reaction. What I'm having a hard time reconciling is the impIication in 412 that Oliver may have told more lies since then in order to visit CC and seemingly felt no guilt about it. In fact he won't even begin to feel any guilt at all until episode 414 when the plot calls for it to happen in time for the lie to be revealed.

MG has seriously underestimated the audience response so many times over the last four years that it makes me nervous about how awful this might be and how much damage might be done. I hope that they've made adjustments to the story following the negative response to the initial lie, but realistically MG's ego probably won't allow for any changes to be made because he never thinks he's wrong.

Edited February 7, 2016 by kes0704

[Belinea]

I hope that they've made adjustments to the story following the negative response to the initial lie.

 

Like you already pointed out, he'd probably never do that unless somebody forced his hand. He thinks the storyline is genius that is why he has to explain once again how the viewer watches the show incorrectly. 

Edited February 7, 2016 by Belinea

[looptab]

Heh I'm with bijoux on this one, KC was probably asked to leave, she didn't leave on her own volition. This paired with the fact that the writers are talking about Laurel flashbacks which means they'll likely be in episodes 21-23 means that there's a higher chance a Lance is in the grave considering 20-23 is rarely about side characters and more about taking down the villain (based on past precedent). 

 

Also I always thought what Wendy meant in her interview was that Felicity won't be able to walk down the aisle or have a 'first dance' with Oliver which may be little details but can be very emotional especially for Felicity who has probably thought about her wedding ever since she was a kid

You know, I can see that. It could even be about her father not walking her down the aisle. So maybe they do decide to get married as soon as possible, and Oliver's guilt in the following episode is really born out of a neighbor's comment about kids, haha.

 

Laurel flashbacks in 21-23? May sweeps? Whatever they are smoking, I want some.

[wonderwall]

I think guggenheims response felicity and oliver having kids is mostly because it seems to me EBR is vehemently against that idea. I remember an interview where she just flat out said no and disliked that idea very much.

As for the baby mama storyline... Idk. Guggenheim is just stupid when it comes to gauging how an audience will react to his contrived storytelling. I mean Stephen being against the idea should've stopped and made him think about it but nope. He continued to be bullheaded about it. The only thing that'll probably help the storyline is the acting but that's about it because I don't trust the writers to make this nuanced or believable.

[dtissagirl]

I hate how Lexi wasn't asked to return.

I can't believe I'm gonna give Guggenheim an out here, but I will. Like he said, all directors for the entire season are booked before the season starts. Not just for Arrow, but for basically every tv show ever. Getting a director to fill in mid-season is not that easy, because everyone's booked for a bunch of different shows.

When Antonio dropped out, MG and Wendy wanted Lexi. Then they went to Berlanti. And Berlanti said, "sorry, guys, I booked lexi for Supergirl in those same dates." So they didn't ask Lexi.

It is really not a conspiracy this time.

[spartan]

Now laurel is not in the grave,yessssssss the flashback of laurel  highlight a story by the end of this season will continue in season 5

[chaos is welcome]

You know, I can see that. It could even be about her father not walking her down the aisle. So maybe they do decide to get married as soon as possible, and Oliver's guilt in the following episode is really born out of a neighbor's comment about kids, haha.

Laurel flashbacks in 21-23? May sweeps? Whatever they are smoking, I want some.

Let's just hope these are like the promises of Sara flashbacks, made after they had already filmed her death.

[Guest]

Life is so much better when you're not on tumblr and you don't read MG responses to asks.

[spartan]

Let's just hope these are like the promises of Sara flashbacks, made after they had already filmed her death.

Sara is in LOT, laurel will have own flashback for his next story.So caity has already shot the scenes she was talking 

[theacostov]

Why would MG rule out Laurel in the grave on tumblr when the show hasn't ruled her out yet and is still dropping anvils? I mean he didn't stop trying to sell Felicity was in the grave even when she was obviously filming.

It also seems awful to confirm that if Laurel was to die then KC got fired and not even try to sell a mutual agreement like with Colton.

Ironically, this is the first time I think she might be dying because why answer that ask if not to throw off suspicion.

[Belinea]

For the record, what could the flashbacks of Laurel show that we don't already somewhat know? Her in law school? Her as a child?

[Guest]

For the record, what could the flashbacks of Laurel show that we don't already somewhat know? Her in law school? Her as a child?

 

Probably her relationship with Quentin seeing as Laurel flashbacks seems to heavily indicate Quentin is dying.

[jay741982]

You know, I can see that. It could even be about her father not walking her down the aisle. So maybe they do decide to get married as soon as possible, and Oliver's guilt in the following episode is really born out of a neighbor's comment about kids, haha.

 

Laurel flashbacks in 21-23? May sweeps? Whatever they are smoking, I want some.

Having Laurel flashbacks that late in the season? Yeah they are smoking serious shit. That'll bring in viewers NOT. I'd rather get more Felicity flashbacks if only cause Diggle has some this year and this is supposed to be his and Felicitys year

[apinknightmare]

Probably her relationship with Quentin seeing as Laurel flashbacks seems to heavily indicate Quentin is dying.

 

Yep. Safest, most obvious killing-off ever. 

 

I will be genuinely surprised if it isn't him.