Spoiler Discussion Thread

[blixie]

 

THE ROYALS is more grounded than Arrow,

 

Exactly we have punched through the grimdark looking glass, we are at LUDICROUS SPEED, Spaceballs level of parody, and on that level? I love it. 

[Guest]

Did anyone else think Oliver saying "MY NAME IS OLIVER QUEEN!" was super hot?! Daaaamn son.

 

This is what I've become. Haha.

[Soulfire]

Did anyone else think Oliver saying "MY NAME IS OLIVER QUEEN!" was super hot?! Daaaamn son.

 

This is what I've become. Haha.

 

Ya-huh. I could hear the sound of my panties flying across the room.

[jay741982]

Did anyone else think Oliver saying "MY NAME IS OLIVER QUEEN!" was super hot?! Daaaamn son.

 

This is what I've become. Haha.

Haha you probably aren't the one who thought that LOL

[AyChihuahua]

Ya-huh. I could hear the sound of my panties flying across the room.

Much more psychologically healthy than thinking evilOliver is hot.

 

Does he say it to Ra's?

[apinknightmare]

Much more psychologically healthy than thinking evilOliver is hot.

 

Does he say it to Ra's?

 

Haha, yes.

 

Evil!Oliver's hotness level took a nosedive for me when I knew for sure he was faking.

Edited May 7, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Soulfire]

Much more psychologically healthy than thinking evilOliver is hot.

 

Does he say it to Ra's?

 

 

 

Basically, TOUGH TITTIES RA'S.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Soulfire

[statsgirl]

Sorry opposing view. I'm so disgusted with Oliver right now that I find nothing about him hot.  Or even the slightest bit attractive.

Edited May 7, 2015 by statsgirl

[NumberCruncher]

Oh there are people who are already upset. If Felicity forgives Oliver just like that it won't reflect well on her character, but if the season ends on a bad not for Olicity they're also screwed. They're between a rock and a hard place. I wonder how the writers will get themselves out of this one

They aren't capable of writing themselves out of it. I don't know how they managed to take a rather fun pairing that developed naturally over 2 seasons and basically saddle them with every angsty, bad relationship cliché in a mere handful of episodes, but there it is. It took them nearly 3 seasons to get people to even like Laurel, so I can only imagine how long it will take to repair the damage they've done to Olicity...what am I even saying? I'm guessing Felicity will accept his betrayal 100% in the very next episode because there are never any ramifications for bad choices or wrongdoing on this show so nevermind.

Why would it be? Is Nyssa suddenly going to stop being a lesbian and want to make it work with Oliver?

I don't have any worry that Oliver and Nyssa's marriage is going anywhere, but I don't trust Guggenheim not to twist it into some asinine contrivance to create more drama because I'm convinced the man hates joy.

[GirlvsTV]

Mmmm, maybe this whole thing is an elaborate plan for Oliver and Nyssa to get R'as alone on the plane so they can kill him. Makes R'as look pretty dumb for falling for it though.

[quarks]

These are the same showrunners that just had Iris forgive Barry and her father for months of lying last night, and had Felicity congratulate Oliver for putting her in harm's way and using her as bait last season against Slade.  Love overlooks a lot on this show.

 

Also, this is the show that has Oliver working with Malcolm.

 

So. Yeah. Felicity will get over this.

[apinknightmare]

They aren't capable of writing themselves out of it. I don't know how they managed to take a rather fun pairing that developed naturally over 2 seasons and basically saddle them with every angsty, bad relationship cliché in a mere handful of episodes, but there it is. It took them nearly 3 seasons to get people to even like Laurel, so I can only imagine how long it will take to repair the damage they've done to Olicity...what am I even saying? I'm guessing Felicity will accept his betrayal 100% in the very next episode because there are never any ramifications for bad choices or wrongdoing on this show so nevermind.

 

I honestly don't think this ep did any long-term damage to Olicity. At all. I also don't think Oliver betrayed Felicity. At all. I feel really weird thinking that, but there it is.

Edited May 7, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Chaser]

I wanted the porsche and sunset to be their second date, but I've changed my mind.

 

I want them to leave Staring City to regroup. Find Oliver Queen again. That man has some serious making up to do. Just friends for now.

Edited May 7, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[blixie]

Ugh dude does Ras have sword at Nyssa's throat? I think Oliver should dump him Clearwater, Florida and help him get rid of his engrams.

[Guest]

Ya-huh. I could hear the sound of my panties flying across the room.

 

Yup. Yup. This is me. I am so weak. Bahaha.

[AyChihuahua]

I honestly don't think this ep did any long-term damage to Olicity. At all. I also don't think Oliver betrayed Felicity. At all. I feel really weird thinking that, but there it is.

I'm just saying, if you start feeling a desire to write to prison inmates...

[catahoulamama]

I wonder how long it's going to be before olicity fans realize they got royally fucked in this episode?

I pretty much felt like we got screwed from the second half of 3x01. Episode 3x20 was a bribe to keep watching and reel in those who stepped away earlier in the season. There's a reason Marc said they wanted to get Olicity sex out of the way before whatever happens in the finale, and if his record is any indication, it's unlikely to be good.

[NumberCruncher]

I honestly don't think this ep did any long-term damage to Olicity. At all. I also don't think Oliver betrayed Felicity. At all. I feel really weird thinking that, but there it is.

I wasn't necessarily referring just to this episode though--it's this season (which I realize I didn't make clear in my post)--but it all just kind of came to a head here for me. I guess a large part of what irks me so very much is that, unlike last season, Felicity hasn't been in on most of Oliver's big strategy plays so in the end she's left to suffer all of the pain that goes with believing that Oliver just doesn't give a shit, even if he really does...this episode is a prime example. Whereas she used to be right in the thick of the ass-kicking alongside Oliver and Diggle, she's now been forced to react to everything going on around her because Relationship!Angst.

[jay741982]

I wanted the porsche and sunset to be their second date, but I've changed my mind.

 

I want them to leave Staring City to regroup. Find Oliver Queen again. That man has some serious making up to do. Just friends for now.

Yep like I said Felicity needs to make him Grovel BIG TIME and have fun making him do it. He needs to make a grand gesture next week too

[calliope1975]

I swear, the real Ra's is holed up in the real Nanda Parbat - not the one that's apparently a few miles from SC, drinking a margarita and planning the downfall of some other major metropolitan city. 

 

So no Waller connection? Where's ARGUS in all this? What has been the point of Hong Kong?

 

I pretty much felt like we got screwed from the second half of 3x01. Episode 3x20 was a bribe to keep watching and reel in those who stepped away earlier in the season.

 

 

I agree so much, catahoulamama. This season has felt like a big fuck you, to me, at least. I'd forgive Oliver straightaway for his behavior towards TA before I'll ever forgive or understand what the hell happened in the writers' room this year.

Edited May 7, 2015 by calliope1975

[Morrigan2575]

I don't have any worry that Oliver and Nyssa's marriage is going anywhere, but I don't trust Guggenheim not to twist it into some asinine contrivance to create more drama because I'm convinced the man hates joy.

Oh, yay. Someone actually got it.

Of course the marriage is going to be used to break up Olicity in S4. Of.course O/N are going to be forced to stay committed for reasons (Viper/Wolverine...marriage of convenience to solidify Viper's control of the Criminal organization in Madripoor). Viper occasionally called on hubby to do her bidding causing issues with his teammates.

Manufactured Angst of the stupidest kind.

Or

Oh you mean the LoA expects us to keep to those Bullshit marriage vows and your telling me just as I was about to propose/just got engaged...oh noes now I have to break up with Felicity because she's in danger/I can never give her the life she deserves...blah blah blah

Edited May 7, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[wingster55]

So...Thea.

She's in the finale, yes?

[catahoulamama]

I know that I get it I posted that I really don't see how She doesn't stay mad at him until season 4 . I don't get why MG thinks we want all this darkness I want a happy end to the season dammit

I'm guessing that they probably figure anyone who stuck with it this long doesn't mind the darkness. At this point, I'm finishing this season because I started it and hate to leave things unfinished.  They're REALLY gonna have to work some shark jumping miracle next week to get me to commit to S4, even with Bratva included.

[apinknightmare]

I wasn't necessarily referring just to this episode though--it's this season (which I realize I didn't make clear in my post)--but it all just kind of came to a head here for me. I guess a large part of what irks me so very much is that, unlike last season, Felicity hasn't been in on most of Oliver's big strategy plays so in the end she's left to suffer all of the pain that goes with believing that Oliver just doesn't give a shit, even if he really does...this episode is a prime example. Whereas she used to be right in the thick of the ass-kicking alongside Oliver and Diggle, she's now been forced to react to everything going on around her because Relationship!Angst.

 

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from, but I don't agree that this is a Felicity or an Olicity specific issue. Oliver left Diggle out of his plan too, so he doesn't have a clue either. They're just not working well as a team right now, unfortunately. They haven't been for a long time because instead of fighting crime they're left with this stupid fucking plot line. I do agree that Felicity's been given the shaft because of the relationship drama, but oddly enough I thought tonight's ep was a pretty good return to the Felicity I've known and loved over the past three seasons. 

So...Thea.

She's in the finale, yes?

 

Yes. She's in the preview with Diggle in her new suit.

[NumberCruncher]

Nvm

Edited May 7, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[apinknightmare]

Oh, yay. Someone actually got it.

 

No, I get where you're coming from, but I don't think they're going to use this "marriage" to keep Oliver and Felicity apart next season. I don't doubt ridiculous angst is coming, but I don't think it's coming from this. 

[wonderwall]

So...Thea.

She's in the finale, yes?

Well yeah, she's in Roy's gear in the promo so she'll be there

[Guest]

But guys, come on. They were always going to use something to push more angst on Oliver's relationships with anyone. If it wasn't a pointless wedding that has no legal standing whatsoever, it's going to be something else like, I don't know, a child that Oliver never knew existed. This is seriously nothing new or surprising or that big of a deal tbh.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Guest

[kismet]

Meh, I don't think it's as permanent as people think it is because it's hard to believe so when MG says that he doesn't know if the marriage is going to make it to season 4. I think Nyssa and Oliver are well past caring about the LoA customs at this point to actually stick to it.

I'm no expert at marriages. But I believe being married against your will, without your consent or being threatened with death is reasons that would invalidate a marriage. I cannot see it having any legal standing outside of NP, and NP may not exist in future seasons. It might not even need an annulment, it might just be considered a void marriage. I sorta wonder if when Sara returns, we'll find out that her & Nyssa were married before and therefore the O/N marriage is void because Nyssa was already married. It might be the writers way of mea culpeaing the whole offensiveness of the O/N marriage for plot. I do not believe the whole souls are linked and other stuff they mentioned in the vows pertain to O/N since neither one of them wanted to be part of this union. They both were going through the motions under the threat of their lives/ loved one's lives.

[apinknightmare]

But guys, come on. They were always going to use something to push more angst on Oliver's relationships with anyone. If it wasn't a pointless wedding that has no legal standing whatsoever, it's going to be something else like, I don't know, a child that Oliver never knew existed. This is seriously nothing new or surprising or that big of a deal tbh.

 

Yeah, I think the stupid baby mama drama is gonna be the thing next year. I wouldn't put it past MG and co to try something with this wedding, but it would be the most idiotic ticket sold EVER considering the marriage is some League custom that they were coerced into and HE MARRIED A LESBIAN. IMO the only reason it would be an issue is if one of them decided they wanted to make it work, which they won't. Anything else is an issue of paperwork.

Edited May 7, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Guest]

Yeah, I think the stupid baby mama drama is gonna be the thing next year. I wouldn't put it past MG and co to try something with this wedding, but it would be the most idiotic ticket sold EVER considering the marriage is some League custom that they were coerced into and HE MARRIED A LESBIAN. IMO the only reason it would be an issue is if one of them decided they wanted to make it work, which they won't. Anything else is an issue of paperwork.

 

Exactly. I'm surprised I'm not more bothered about it because as an Olicity fan who is still invested in their relationship, I'd be the first one to go 'Oh no, we're doomed!' But I just don't care. I knew angst was coming anyway. They were never going to let Olicity be happy for long. This is ARROW. 

[statsgirl]

So. Yeah. Felicity will get over this.

I'm sure Felicity will get over it.  But I don't think she should.

 

After all Oliver has put her through this season, letting her think she's going to die, when he could very easily have asked to speak to her and told her he had a plan, is the last straw.  It's moved into abusive territory now.

[blixie]

 

Yes, but to discuss in what context would be a spoiler.

 

Which we can feely discuss in the spoiler thread.

 

 

They haven't been for a long time because instead of fighting crime they're left with this stupid fucking plot line.

 

Yup.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Basically, if I continue to watch in season 4, I will just have to Eternal Sunshine season 3 from my mind and begin next season like the last thing I watched was Oliver and Felicity on Lian Yu talking about how they both sold the I love you.

[Soulfire]

IMO the only reason it would be an issue is if one of them decided they wanted to make it work, which they won't. Anything else is an issue of paperwork.

Nyssa released Sara from the League simply by saying so (for argument's sake let's just forget Sara went back to them later on) so I imagine Nyssa and Oliver's marriage should be able to be disbanded as easily.

ETA: I don't mean to be snippy, just pointing out that, as you implied with the paperwork, I don't think breaking up that marriage will be a big deal.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Soulfire

[catahoulamama]

I swear, the real Ra's is holed up in the real Nanda Parbat - not the one that's apparently a few miles from SC, drinking a margarita and planning the downfall of some other major metropolitan city. 

 

So no Waller connection? Where's ARGUS in all this? What has been the point of Hong Kong?

 

 

I agree so much, catahoulamama. This season has felt like a big fuck you, to me, at least. I'd forgive Oliver straightaway for his behavior towards TA before I'll ever forgive or understand what the hell happened in the writers' room this year.

Maybe it's some sort of social experiment on their part - like let's take this super popular show and destroy it and it's central characters from every possible angle, screw over the audience on a weekly basis ALL.SEASON.LONG. and see how long they stick with it.  LOL

[NumberCruncher]

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from, but I don't agree that this is a Felicity or an Olicity specific issue. Oliver left Diggle out of his plan too, so he doesn't have a clue either. They're just not working well as a team right now, unfortunately. They haven't been for a long time because instead of fighting crime they're left with this stupid fucking plot line. I do agree that Felicity's been given the shaft because of the relationship drama, but oddly enough I thought tonight's ep was a pretty good return to the Felicity I've known and loved over the past three seasons.

Oh believe me--I have no complaints whatsoever about Felicity's portrayal in this episode and am thrilled she seemed more like herself. I'm just perturbed about what an absolute crapfest this episode did to the relationship dynamic and how that will rub off on Felicity's characterization going forward. If she simply lets Oliver off the hook, she ends up looking like a doormat and/or too unimportant to be privy to his master plan (just like Diggle), but if she gets mad at Oliver then she gets to look "ungrateful" for not seeing the bigger picture. It's a no-win situation for yet another female character on this show. I just wish they wouldn't have gone there.

[kismet]

Mmmm, maybe this whole thing is an elaborate plan for Oliver and Nyssa to get R'as alone on the plane so they can kill him. Makes R'as look pretty dumb for falling for it though.

Or on par for this season... I mean Ras has missed a lot of big clues. He doesn't seem to be playing with a full deck anymore IMO.

Edited May 7, 2015 by kismet

[quarks]

I'm sure Felicity will get over it.  But I don't think she should.

 

After all Oliver has put her through this season, letting her think she's going to die, when he could very easily have asked to speak to her and told her he had a plan, is the last straw.  It's moved into abusive territory now.

 

Responding in the relationships thread.

[apinknightmare]

I'm sure Felicity will get over it.  But I don't think she should.

 

After all Oliver has put her through this season, letting her think she's going to die, when he could very easily have asked to speak to her and told her he had a plan, is the last straw.  It's moved into abusive territory now.

 

I don't think he could've asked to speak with her at all. Those League footmen of Ra's were all over him where Diggle was concerned and only allowed them a minute, I don't think they would've ever let a private meeting with her pass, and it would've put Felicity in even more danger of being singled out by Ra's. IMO, he had to be as cold to her as possible in this ep to sell it.

Nyssa released Sara from the League simply by saying so (for argument's sake let's just forget Sara went back to them later on) so I imagine Nyssa and Oliver's marriage should be able to be disbanded as easily.

ETA: I don't mean to be snippy, just pointing out that, as you implied with the paperwork, I don't think breaking up that marriage will be a big deal.

 

No, I don't think so either. And I don't mean literal paperwork, I just meant some kind of...not legal entanglement, but that it would be a matter of just letting it go. There's no reason for this marriage to come up again, since Nyssa's gay, neither of them wanted to be married to the other, and there won't be a kid to worry about (unless Ra's made sure they consummated before putting his plan into action - but I highly doubt the show would go there).

Edited May 7, 2015 by apinknightmare

[NumberCruncher]

Which we can feely discuss in the spoiler thread

My post was originally in the episode thread, but the mods must have moved it here in the spoiler thread, which is why I said that.

[blixie]

Ha. Okay well that makes sense!

 

As I've said all season long, I can't get het up about anything they have done this season or take it to heart, it's all plot driven nonsense so I hope Felicity does get over this, and of all the things Oliver's done this season, this stuff in this episode is the LEAST of it. I mean this is the ONE time he's actually being kind of smart, in at least attempting a damn plan.

 

I absolutely agree Olicity has been damaged by this season, but I thought that starting with the Calm, but I'm fine with pretending none of it took place and wasn't really particularly important, I'm on some good Forget Me Nows. I'll take my sex scene, and my sunset, and happily never think of this season AGAIN.

Edited May 7, 2015 by blixie

[kismet]

Honestly, I think we will find out that everything that happened in that jail cell was done with the knowledge and permission of Diggle & Felicity. I think the writers are purposely not telling us everything. Its that time of the season, where we are purposely kept out of their headspace. There will be some big reveal that somehow D&F got the memo that Ras may drop the virus on them but it is fake. The conversations in the cell were done for the benefit of the LoA people watching the cell. I feel that Tatsu will help break them out of the cell. OQ did not need to reveal that she was immune to the virus, but he needed someone on the outside of the cell, so that's why Tatsu got removedl. Its gonna be the easiest way for the writers to back out of this relationship road block, because it would be hard to imagine any of TA just up & forgiving him in 1 episode even if he had a plan.

[AyChihuahua]

Ha. Okay well that makes sense!

 

As I've said all season long, I can't get het up about anything they have done this season or take it to heart, it's all plot driven nonsense so I hope Felicity does get over this, and of all the things Oliver's done this season, this stuff in this episode is the LEAST of it. I mean this is the ONE time he's actually being kind of smart, in at least attempting a damn plan.

 

I absolutely agree Olicity has been damaged by this season, but I thought that starting with the Calm, but I'm fine with pretending none of it took place and wasn't really particularly important, I'm on some good Forget Me Nows. I'll take my sex scene, and my sunset, and happily never think of this season AGAIN.

That is kind of cheating, you know.  

 

 

There will be some big reveal that somehow D&F got the memo that Ras may drop the virus on them but it is fake. The conversations in the cell were done for the benefit of the LoA people watching the cell.

That would be very good.  Presumably they would have shared that info with Ray and Laurel, but not Malcolm.  Because I want Malcolm to suffer.

Edited May 7, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[chaos is welcome]

I wanted the porsche and sunset to be their second date, but I've changed my mind.

 

I want them to leave Staring City to regroup. Find Oliver Queen again. That man has some serious making up to do. Just friends for now.

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if Andy mistook Katrina for Felicity lololol.   Do the marriage get erased in the next ep?  Probably not, there is no time for those kinds of character beats.  Its just the stupidest thing ever. 

 

Someone on the This Is Your Sword thread said perhaps malcolm outing Oliver's fake brainwashing was a part of the plan. I have been thinking this as well. 

I really don't care though. The forced wedding and consummation stuff is too much. Allowing TA to think they are dying is too much. I had this reaction after last year's season finale and accepted it as an anomoly, but this is apparently their thing. Fool me once . . . 

[La Dee Da]

Did anyone else think Oliver saying "MY NAME IS OLIVER QUEEN!" was super hot?! Daaaamn son.

 

This is what I've become. Haha.

 

It's apparently so hot that the web site crashes everytime I try to go into the Spoilers Only thread!  Sigh...I guess I can wait until next week to see if they all die or not.  :)

 

I wanted the porsche and sunset to be their second date, but I've changed my mind.

 

I want them to leave Staring City to regroup. Find Oliver Queen again. That man has some serious making up to do. Just friends for now.

I think this is along the right approach - they are at the start of their relationship, despite the build-up over the last three seasons.  They admit that many things were done wrong or went poorly and that they want to re-start on the right foot. It could also slow down the relationship, enough that most of their development is on screen and not during the hiatus.

 

Oh, yay. Someone actually got it.

Of course the marriage is going to be used to break up Olicity in S4. Of.course O/N are going to be forced to stay committed for reasons (Viper/Wolverine...marriage of convenience to solidify Viper's control of the Criminal organization in Madripoor). Viper occasionally called on hubby to do her bidding causing issues with his teammates.

Manufactured Angst of the stupidest kind.

Or

Oh you mean the LoA expects us to keep to those Bullshit marriage vows and your telling me just as I was about to propose/just got engaged...oh noes now I have to break up with Felicity because she's in danger/I can never give her the life she deserves...blah blah blah

I think the marriage will only exist going forward for quipping purposes - Nyssa will announce her presence with a sarcastic "husband" and Oliver will roll his eyes.  Or Felicity will see Nyssa on her monitors and say "your wife is here.  Oh my God, does that make me your mistress? I am totally your mistress!" and Oliver will roll his eyes.  I think they'll have enough "family issues" angst to draw on (Felicity's dad, the Dig-Oliver detante, Laurel-Quentin). 

[NumberCruncher]

Ha. Okay well that makes sense!

Then again, now that I see all of the stream of posts about the episode here, maybe they didn't move it and I just don't know what thread I was responding in. It was bound to happen, heh.

 

As I've said all season long, I can't get het up about anything they have done this season or take it to heart, it's all plot driven nonsense so I hope Felicity does get over this, and of all the things Oliver's done this season, this stuff in this episode is the LEAST of it. I mean this is the ONE time he's actually being kind of smart, in at least attempting a damn plan.

 

I absolutely agree Olicity has been damaged by this season, but I thought that starting with the Calm, but I'm fine with pretending none of it took place and wasn't really particularly important, I'm on some good Forget Me Nows. I'll take my sex scene, and my sunset, and happily never think of this season AGAIN.

I admire your ability to compartmentalize so well. I hope I can completely forget the 90% of S3 I didn't enjoy. I just pray that S4 brings some much-needed balance to the dire black hole that was this season. Bring on the H.I.V.E. and Bratva storylines and leave some of the angst behind.

[jay741982]

I'm guessing that they probably figure anyone who stuck with it this long doesn't mind the darkness. At this point, I'm finishing this season because I started it and hate to leave things unfinished.  They're REALLY gonna have to work some shark jumping miracle next week to get me to commit to S4, even with Bratva included.

I don't mind some darkness but I want a balance and I've read a lot of people have complained that this season is TOO dark and MG has said it's more balanced next season.

[statsgirl]

I sorta wonder if when Sara returns, we'll find out that her & Nyssa were married before and therefore the O/N marriage is void because Nyssa was already married. It might be the writers way of mea culpeaing the whole offensiveness of the O/N marriage for plot.

 

even if same sex marriage was legal in Nanda Parbat (I can't believe I just typed that), given Ra's views of Nyssa's relationship with Sara, I doubt he would have let them be married.

 

Felicity and Diggle knowing that the vial was fake virus would excuse them supporting Oliver next episode, but it would make the writing for this one even worse.

[apinknightmare]

Well, they'll know it was fake when they don't die from it. They'll know he was trustworthy when he asked them to trust him.