Spoiler Discussion Thread

[apinknightmare]

Honestly, I'm not even going to complain about this version of the canary cry. I was worried they'd make her an actual metahuman. I mean, they still could, but for now it's a dodged bullet.

[Morena]

Honestly, I'm not even going to complain about this version of the canary cry. I was worried they'd make her an actual metahuman. I mean, they still could, but for now it's a dodged bullet.

it would have made more sense because it was not she who asked, but what happened, although metahumans not fit in Arrow

[BkWurm1]

Oliver being comfortable enough to break down in front of Felicity and have her comforting him? I'd pay to see that.

Oliver needs a good long cry tbqh

I would love if we had a call back to the scene in "Sara" when he says so others can grieve, he can not.  A turning of the tables if he allows others to be strong for him so he can face his grief. 

[Guest]

So I've just seen on tumblr someone ask MG about hoping Felicity and Ra's have a scene together and 'to make it happen' and he just replies with a smiley face. So I'm guessing that Ra's is the one Felicity stands up to?

[wonderwall]

That would be kind of awesome. Felicity Smoak is making a come back! And all she needed was to get rid of the dead weight ;)

[Morrigan2575]

So I've just seen on tumblr someone ask MG about hoping Felicity and Ra's have a scene together and 'to make it happen' and he just replies with a smiley face. So I'm guessing that Ra's is the one Felicity stands up to?

yeah I figured it was Ra's when episode description for 320 was released, especially after the Maseo/Felicity scene turned out to be non existent

[apinknightmare]

yeah I figured it was Ra's when episode description for 320 was released, especially after the Maseo/Felicity scene turned out to be non existent

 

I know there's a joke to be made with the sex and "a heartbroken Felicity takes matters into her own hands," but I think the morning-after reality of Oliver becoming Ra's Ol Ghul is where the heartbreak comes from, and she's gonna go let Ra's know what's what. Hopefully he doesn't hurt her, although, I don't know. I just don't know. 

Edited April 8, 2015 by apinknightmare

[kismet]

I kinda think that Oliver will be going to the hospital in 3x20 to see Roy in the ICU since the poor guy is getting a beat down and stabbed in jail. Him being in critical condition in the hospital is probably the reason why CH hadn't been filming much/at all for 3x20/3x21.

 

And, although Thea is the best bet for the person being Pitted since the ritual involved Oliver and Malcolm plus the shot of someone's eye opening looking a lot like hers, I'm still not sure she's actually the one dying? The BTS shots of WH hanging around with SA, EBR, DR, and JB have her dressed up in clothes that looked like she came to Nanda Parbat ready for a mission and not as a corpse to be immersed in Ra's magical pool. Or, maybe, those BTS shots were of Thea after she had already been resurrected.

Its Arrow, ICU scenes generally do no imply death. So I think will get Roy in ICU coma which is why he's not traveling to NP & Thea will be killed. SA did say that he saw a stuntperson (I believe he implied female) took the hardest hit he's ever scene on a coffee table. So my guess is Thea death by coffeetable in the fireplace room by Ras. And then of course she will be LP after a magical ride on NP Express where we will bear witness to the miracle of Oliver Queen crying and finally breaking down.

[Chaser]

Can't wait for that scene. If its anything like the Felicity and Malcolm stare down its going to be great. I figure Felicity going to Nanda is her making her choice, I wonder if taking things into her own hands is a reference to what EBR said about Felicity sacraficing herself. No clue what it could mean though.

[apinknightmare]

Also, I wonder if Oliver knows Felicity's going to be on that jet when he steps onto it. Or if he walks on, sees her there (maybe Diggle surprises him too), and goes and sits down next to her instead of fighting her on it, because he just needs her there. 

[AyChihuahua]

 

I know there's a joke to be made with the sex and "a heartbroken Felicity takes matters into her own hands," but I think the morning-after reality of Oliver becoming Ra's Ol Ghul is where the heartbreak comes from, and she's gonna go let Ra's know what's what. Hopefully he doesn't hurt her, although, I don't know. I just don't know.

It's all good, both Felicity and Oliver will survive to S4, after which, other than Nyssa, hopefully we will never hear the words LOA or Ra's ever again.  

 

Some people on other sites are convinced this is Ra's plan to force Nyssa to step up.  Is there anything in-show supporting that supposition?

[Morrigan2575]

Also, I wonder if Oliver knows Felicity's going to be on that jet when he steps onto it. Or if he walks on, sees her there (maybe Diggle surprises him too), and goes and sits down next to her instead of fighting her on it, because he just needs her there.

good question, I could see it go either way.

[apinknightmare]

Some people on other sites are convinced this is Ra's plan to force Nyssa to step up.  Is there anything in-show supporting that supposition?

 

Not really. He did say that he thought she let her emotions cloud her judgment, but I don't really understand how killing Sara and everything that came after forces her to step up. I suppose Sara's murder could've been a test that she failed (which would be the stupidest reason for a murder ever), which led him to that conclusion and made him search for a new heir, but he sort of lucked into Oliver not biting it from his magical kick off the mountain top. I don't understand to what end any of this would be part of a bigger scheme, because working these strings behind the scenes leads to even more ridiculous outcomes than just having us believe that Malcolm orchestrated all of this to get Oliver to fight Ra's so his blood debt would be repaid. 

[Chaser]

I could see a callback to S1 and the Undertaking. My Life, My Choice, etc

I could see it being a favorite of SA. He seems to be fond of that moment. I recall him saying that's when Team Arrow became Team Arrow.

Edited April 8, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Guest]

Yeah, I want to know why Diggle and Felicity go to NP too. If Thea does die, I can understand Malcolm going (also because I'm still not yet convinced this whole thing hasn't been a ploy by him for some reason) but Diggle and Felicity I'm not sure, especially as they're presumably leaving the city in Laurel and Ray's hands and that just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

 

I know they're Oliver's original team and maybe for support? I'm not knocking it because I've longed for some OG3 stuff but it's interesting to wonder why.

[Chaser]

Yeah, I want to know why Diggle and Felicity go to NP too. If Thea does die, I can understand Malcolm going (also because I'm still not yet convinced this whole thing hasn't been a ploy by him for some reason) but Diggle and Felicity I'm not sure, especially as they're presumably leaving the city in Laurel and Ray's hands and that just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

 

I know they're Oliver's original team and maybe for support? I'm not knocking it because I've longed for some OG3 stuff but it's interesting to wonder why.

I don't think its going to complicated. I think they just won't let him go alone again. These guys love each other, they are family.

[kismet]

Yeah, I want to know why Diggle and Felicity go to NP too. If Thea does die, I can understand Malcolm going (also because I'm still not yet convinced this whole thing hasn't been a ploy by him for some reason) but Diggle and Felicity I'm not sure, especially as they're presumably leaving the city in Laurel and Ray's hands and that just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

 

I know they're Oliver's original team and maybe for support? I'm not knocking it because I've longed for some OG3 stuff but it's interesting to wonder why.

My idea is that Diggle is using his military experience & expertise to execute a covert mission to help take down LoA on OQ's order.

[AyChihuahua]

 

I suppose Sara's murder could've been a test that she failed (which would be the stupidest reason for a murder ever), which led him to that conclusion and made him search for a new heir, but he sort of lucked into Oliver not biting it from his magical kick off the mountain top.

Their theory isn't that it was a test, it's that all of this, through the last episode and killing Thea and everything, is all aimed at making Nyssa think Ra's has really dumped her as Heir, to see if she'd step up and take it, or some such.  It doesn't work for me, either, but some of those posters seem convinced.  Nothing re this being Ra's plan in any way has worked for me since he kicked Oliver off the mountain, bc there was no reason for him to survive that drop, even if Ra's had intentionally not stabbed him somewhere really vital.

[apinknightmare]

Their theory isn't that it was a test, it's that all of this, through the last episode and killing Thea and everything, is all aimed at making Nyssa think Ra's has really dumped her as Heir, to see if she'd step up and take it, or some such.  

 

Yeah, I'm with you. I can't buy it. 

 

I think it's more likely that he was working with Malcolm for some reason (not actually likely, but more likely than this being some kind of weird way of getting Nyssa to step up), although I can't for the life of me figure out what that reason would be. And yeah, I would've bought Ra's planning it if he had just stabbed Oliver, but kicking him off the mountain? Nah. 

[Menrva]

Another possibly stupid question: is there any evidence that Malcolm will end up in charge of the LOA? For some bizarre reason, this seems to make sense to me, though I can't really explain why.

 

As for the scary high priestess lady from the preview, my theory is that she is from some sort of flashback that explains the origin of the LOA, perhaps shows how the first Ras became, well, Ras.

[Morrigan2575]

Their theory isn't that it was a test, it's that all of this, through the last episode and killing Thea and everything, is all aimed at making Nyssa think Ra's has really dumped her as Heir, to see if she'd step up and take it, or some such. It doesn't work for me, either, but some of those posters seem convinced. Nothing re this being Ra's plan in any way has worked for me since he kicked Oliver off the mountain, bc there was no reason for him to survive that drop, even if Ra's had intentionally not stabbed him somewhere really vital.

I think they're pulling that from comics...have to do some research BRB. Yep it was from Comics

The Second World War

During World War II, Nyssa and her family are sent to a concentration camp, where Nyssa's entire family dies and she is rendered infertile by gruesome Mengele-style experiments. At one point she begs Ra's for help, but he refuses her, stating that, while he does not agree with Hitler's ideas, his cause could only be aided by the millions who will be exterminated by Hitler's scheme.

Death and the Maidens

Broken by her horrifying experiences during this time, and enraged that Ra's has abandoned her and her family to die at the hands of the Nazis, Nyssa is finally motivated to act when her great-grandson – her last living descendent – is killed. She plots to kill Ra's by befriending, kidnapping, and brainwashing Talia and using her to kill Ra's.

...While Batman is successful in preventing the assassination of Superman, he is unable to stop Ra's from being killed by Nyssa.[1] This in turn is part of a greater plan by Ra's to ensure that his daughters, both initially dissatisfied with his plans, will realize that he is right, and that they would come to accept their destinies as his heirs. Realizing and accepting this, both Nyssa and Talia become the heads of the League of Assassins. Talia disavows her love for Bruce Wayne, and both sisters declare Batman to be their enemy, Nyssa promising that she will not fail her father as Batman departs.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Morena]

My idea is that Diggle is using his military experience & expertise to execute a covert mission to help take down LoA on OQ's order.

I still hope that in the end shows Oliver had a plan for this

Yeah, I'm with you. I can't buy it. 

 

I think it's more likely that he was working with Malcolm for some reason (not actually likely, but more likely than this being some kind of weird way of getting Nyssa to step up), although I can't for the life of me figure out what that reason would be. And yeah, I would've bought Ra's planning it if he had just stabbed Oliver, but kicking him off the mountain? Nah. 

maybe if Oliver did not survive, he could put in LP.

Maseo helped Oliver and Ra's has not done anything against him

Edited April 8, 2015 by Morena

[AyChihuahua]

Once the show starts back up next Wednesday, is it a straight shot through 23?  I'm going to set up a countdown clock for this crap season to be over.

[jay741982]

Once the show starts back up next Wednesday, is it a straight shot through 23?  I'm going to set up a countdown clock for this crap season to be over.

Yep last 5 episodes air consecutively

[AyChihuahua]

Awesome, the day after epi 23 is my birthday!  Perfect excuse to take the day off and watch the final couple episodes, assuming the season ends non-horribly.

[statsgirl]

Maseo helped Oliver and Ra's has not done anything against him

 

I'm assuming that at this point Ra's doesn't know Maseo helped, all he is focusing on is the prophecy (if it is real and not a Ra's/Malcolm trick).  There's nothing quite as good as governing by prophecy. Look at how well The Divine Right of Kings worked out.

 

 

During World War II, Nyssa and her family are sent to a concentration camp, where Nyssa's entire family dies and she is rendered infertile by gruesome Mengele-style experiments. At one point she begs Ra's for help, but he refuses her, stating that, while he does not agree with Hitler's ideas, his cause could only be aided by the millions who will be exterminated by Hitler's scheme.

Seriously? What a creep.  Nyssa's family is his family.  How is not saving his family going to help his cause?

 

I'm going to miss Oliver's green leather suit.  He looked really good in that.  Is he going to get a new one for next season because this one is in lock-up, or will he have to wear LoA gear from now on?

 

Does AK really think that Cisco's "I love you" to Laurel is standing in for the audience?  Could he still be that delusional?  Cuz when he says things like that, it makes me ragey and want to bombard his twitter account.

[JenMcSnark]

Something in one of the last couple spoilers made me think it's Cisco who will be the floater for the three shows.  Next to Felicity, it makes sense from a support standpoint.  

[kismet]

Someone this season has to have a successful & well thought/planned masterplan! Because right now it seems like nobody has a plan. Although, I really this Malcolm has something up his sleeve. Slade's motivation seemed a little overdramatic last season and a little misdirected, but at least his plan was pretty tight and revengeful. Ras just seems to be killing people and seeing what happens. For all the preparation the LoA does to make sure they have the proper lighting for meetings, you would think they'd have a better plan than just shooting people up with arrows. Poor Maseo is being overworked with all the cliff saving, prophecy speaking and arrow shooting he has to do. Here's hoping he's getting a pay bump or bonus.

[statsgirl]

Cisco first appeared on Arrow, but would you say he "originated" on it?

[AyChihuahua]

 

I'm going to miss Oliver's green leather suit.  He looked really good in that.  Is he going to get a new one for next season because this one is in lock-up, or will he have to wear LoA gear from now on?

There's no way Oliver is joining the LOA permanently.  The show wouldn't survive that.  I'm sure the EPs just meant through this season, plus he'll presumably get an upgraded suit next season, esp. since the one Roy was wearing would be in evidence lockup.

[calliope1975]

I kinda think that Oliver will be going to the hospital in 3x20 to see Roy in the ICU since the poor guy is getting a beat down and stabbed in jail. Him being in critical condition in the hospital is probably the reason why CH hadn't been filming much/at all for 3x20/3x21.

 

SA was wearing the body cam in the hospital. Was the camera pointed at him or away from him? Aren't those type of shots usually used to indicate disorientation? So, if the camera is facing him and it's shaky cam, could it be he finds out about beat up Roy then about presumably dead Thea. Oliver's bummed and more emo than usual? They whisk Thea onto a plane to NP; Team Arrow won't let him go alone, and then we get a breakdown on the plane. Or none of these things happen. 

 

The canary cry choker is interesting in theory, but with all the problems associated with that as others have pointed out, not practical so much. I'm sure all those concerns will be hand waved away. If they are addressed, I will give kudos where due. But, you won't convince me to care about Laurel, Cisco. Barring a personality transplant and a better actress, that's not happening. 

Edited April 8, 2015 by calliope1975

[foreverevolving]

I can live with Laurel remaining an awful person, the problem is not the character but the actress who is unable to provide emotional layers to make the character likable even when she's not. I wrote about this a few pages ago, if JB, ST & MB managed to make us if not love than at least relate to their characters, even though they are the villains of the story, than there is no reason why the supposed heroine of the show can't do the same.... unless she's being portrayed by a bad actress, which she is sadly.

[Oscirus]

Re: Layla, there's a difference between having a job and then having a baby and having a baby then looking for a job. It's not like Layla wouldn't have numerous offers in whatever field she decided to go out for that she has to join another globetrotting shadowy organization.

 

Besides, why would they have a whole episode centering on the fact that they both can't have dangerous jobs with her giving Diggs the go ahead to keep his complete with the whole "daughter proud of me" speech if the writers were just going to throw all of that away and have her join a similar organization?

[apinknightmare]

Well, if Lyla works for this hypothetical organization, a) it might not be as shady as ARGUS and b) if she heads it and she's not out in the field doing the dirty work (and she wouldn't be, that would be what the superhero teams are for), then it's not a dangerous job.

[apinknightmare]

So, I'm pro choker.

Yeah, the sonic devices are a little problematic because of the hearing thing, but I don't think it's something that Laurel would use often (kind of like Sara only used them to get out of dire situations), and it's already been established in canon that it just incapacitates everyone around. Oliver didn't seem to have too much of an issue being around it when Sara used it to get them out of the police station in S2.

And, the choker is much more practical than the little bombs, considering Laurel a) can't run out of them and b) doesn't have to find a place to put them on her suit - they aren't small. I'm sure the actual cry will look utterly ridiculous, but since Oliver is leaving her and Fony Stark alone to watch over Starling City while he goes off to get his Ra's on, it doesn't hurt for her to have a little something extra to get her out of trouble since no one will be around to save her ass (except for Nyssa, who must have put a GPS on her or something).

[Velocity23]

I am just wondering how Cisco knows about the BC. I mean with the Flash we at least heard Quentin comment about the freak from CC. But has a woman in black ever been mentioned on the Flash? I mean they managed to mention Felicity several times. How does he know about her or does he mean Sara. I am confused.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Velocity23

[Morrigan2575]

Seriously? What a creep. Nyssa's family is his family. How is not saving his family going to help his cause?

I only copied over the part hat pertained to the Arrow spec on Twitter. This proceed the WWII story

 

Like her sister Talia, Nyssa eventually becomes disenchanted with Ra's genocidal plans to "cleanse the Earth," and disassociates herself from her father sometime in the early 19th century. Ra's reluctantly approves this, believing that she will return to him and that she or her children will become his future heirs. To his disappointment, Nyssa refuses to give herself or her family to him, causing him to disown her permanently.

To some extent I can see the similarities, but I don't think there's enough Arrow setup to logically go there. Doesn't mean they won't, I've been assuming they'd use the Nyssa teaming up to overthrow Ra's since her disinherited her.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[apinknightmare]

I am just wondering how Cisco knows about the BC. I mean with the Flash we at least heard Quentin comment about the freak from CC. But has a woman in black ever been mentioned on the Flash? I mean they managed to mention Felicity several times. How does he know about her or does he mean Sara. I am confused.

He's talking about Laurel, not Sara - Cisco knows that Sara is dead (he knows that Caitlyn was investigating DNA on the arrow from "Canary's murder"). Perhaps Laurel's Black Canary is mentioned when Ray and Felicity cross over to The Flash? I'm not sure how anyone knows to call her Black Canary, but Channel 52 does cover the vigilante beat, and I'm guessing Cisco has a vested interest in keeping tabs on that since he seems to live the superheroing so much.

There was a BTS photo of CV and KC dressed as BC, so I'm guessing Cisco sees the Black Canary in action with his own eyes when he and Joe visit SC.

Edited April 8, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Velocity23]

They could have dropped some hints about Cisco love for the new women in black fighting crime in SC.

[apinknightmare]

They could have dropped some hints about Cisco love for the new women in black fighting crime in SC.

Maybe they will in the next ep?

[Velocity23]

I hope so.

[Ariah]

Oliver didn't seem to have too much of an issue being around it when Sara used it to get them out of the police station in S2.

 

Oliver's hood not only keeps his ears warm, but also provides a sonic-cry-proof barrier. It's patent pending the moment we speak.

[Sakura12]

Sara's device was also used as a flash bomb to help her escape. Laurel's choker won't be able to that. With all those buckles Laurel has plenty of places to store sonic devices. But I suppose she wants to complete her dominatrix look with a choker. I just can't wait to laugh while she screams like an idiot. No matter what screaming is stupid power to see in live action. It was really stupid looking on Smallville. 

[Morrigan2575]

Oliver didn't seem to have too much of an issue being around it when Sara used it to get them out of the police station in S2

 

But in the very next episode they made a point of Oliver using special gear to protect himself from the effects of the device when he faced Canary on the roof top.  I'd have to go back and watch the Canary rescue scene again to see how Oliver/Arrow was affected (if at all).

[apinknightmare]

I guess it just depends on how they use it. Sara used her sonic devices, what, twice? I can't imagine it would be something that Laurel's going to rely on, seems to me like it would be a use in case of emergency thing, and it would make her less reliant on other people if she got in trouble.

IDK, I just don't have it in me to hate on it when I haven't even seen it used yet. No doubt it'll look stupid, but I think it's smart to make it into a collar. ::shrug::

Edited April 8, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Morrigan2575]

I guess it just depends on how they use it. Sara used her sonic devices, what, twice? I can't imagine it would be something that Laurel's going to rely on, seems to me like it would be a use in case of emergency thing, and it would make her less reliant on other people if she got in trouble.

IDK, I just don't have it in me to hate on it when I haven't even seen it used yet. No doubt it'll look stupid, but I think it's smart to make it into a collar. ::shrug::

Not hating, the only comment I've made is about the fact that they need to acknowledge that putting it around her neck will cause damage to her own eardrums every time she uses it unless she wears some sort of protective gear.  As I said, Mutant's are usually protected/immune to their own powers, this is a device which will affect her as well as everyone else.

 

Personally I find the canary cry as well as Siren and Banshee's Sonic Cries to be good for comics but kind of dumb in movies.  I don't have to listen to them in the comics, just see waves or EEEEEEEE to simulate the sound.  There are certain comic aspects that don't translate well to live action, IMO and this is one of them.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[apinknightmare]

^ I wasn't implying that you were hating on it. :) There are some very real issues to a "weapon" like that, and I agree that something like that is absolutely better suited to comics. I thought they had a good compromise with the little things Sara used, but I won't judge this until I see what it does/how they use it.

[icandigit]

^ I wasn't implying that you were hating on it. :) There are some very real issues to a "weapon" like that, and I agree that something like that is absolutely better suited to comics. I thought they had a good compromise with the little things Sara used, but I won't judge this until I see what it does/how they use it.

I don't know much about comics. But, I really thought Sara's device was a clever take on the idea of a 'canary cry'. I was really impressed by that.

[Velocity23]

Seems all three EPs were involved in the writing for last episode titled My Name Is Oliver Queen.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Velocity23

[apinknightmare]

I love the title, haha