S11.E03: The Bad Seed

[Demented Daisy]

I really don't see what they did that was so wolfish. They interrogate everyone that way. They intimidate and threaten to get the information they need.   She's a witch! Who knows she was capable of doing. She could have cast a spell with just her words if she was lying. Why should the trust anything she said?

 

She's lucky they didn't gank her just on principle of being a witch.

 

If Sam or Dean ever do anything like that, I am done.  That is repulsive to me.

[catrox14]

 

If Sam or Dean ever do anything like that, I am done.  That is repulsive to me.

 

 

At this point, witches are proving to be one of their most formidable enemies.  Rowena alone almost killed Crowley OR she hexed him back to full strength, still not sure on that one, but either way she impacted the King of Hell via hex.  She hexed a full strength angel into an attack dog. She was able to free Dean of the Mark which no one had been able to do. The Witch in About A Boy could cast a spell just by speaking. Rowena held Dean against a wall giving him the metaphorical finger....although based on Dean's reaction that left him....spent ... I think whatever she did to him..might not have been all that metaphorical.

 

Basically, killing a witch(male or female) preemptively, might not be the worst idea they've ever had. Should they try to get enough evidence that a witch will do them harm before they kill said witch, yes that would be ideal.  At this point witches are gonna be bad news for the Winchesters. 

Edited October 26, 2015 by catrox14

[Omegamom]

It's definitely in keeping with the "kill monsters no matter what" approach they had at the beginning, though they've mellowed a bit on that (c.f. Kate the werewolf, Garth the werewolf, Benny, kid monsters...).

[catrox14]

 

It's definitely in keeping with the "kill monsters no matter what" approach they had at the beginning, though they've mellowed a bit on that (c.f. Kate the werewolf, Garth the werewolf, Benny, kid monsters...).

 

You know, this just makes me think, (which is always a bad idea). 

 

But anyway... okay so the premise of the show has always been "Saving people, hunting things".  They killed monsters because monsters were the threat to humanity.  And that seems to be what people loved about the show.  Sam and Dean against monsters, demons and dick angels.  But then that became something that was bad for Sam and Dean to do.  Yet now the show says they want to get back to the s1 dynamic of the boys fighting together against the Darkness/monster because that's the heroic thing but then killing monsters/witches/demons/dick angels might actually be bad?  

 

 I mean geez, I'm getting whiplash trying to understand what messages I'm supposed to be getting here about the Winchesters. Sigh.

[AwesomO4000]

But real!Sam? Hmm. Jess. Ruby. Madison. Kara. Amelia. Anyone else?

 

Maybe Sarah. We don't know for sure on that one.

 

But all in all, I'm guessing Soulless!Sam alone had him beat. We only saw a few cases that he was on, and he'd already tied or beaten regular Sam in the number of women at least.* And he was around for a whole year and a half. I guess in addition to not sleeping, Soulless!Sam never got tired either.

 

* I think there were 2 or 3 women on just that one case we saw the flashback of alone.

 

 

As for the witches. Witches in this verse are often bad news. As catrox says, Rowena is dangerous, and not only that she's been shown often not to care one bit about snuffing out someone's life if it benefits her in the least. And that could mean something as small as getting a good, free meal. To Rowena, that's totally worth killing someone over. Many witches on this show have been shown to disregard people similarly, either seeing them as pawns or not worth thinking about: The witch in "Curious Case..." and the witches in "Shut Up, Dr Phil" for example. And even to an extent the teen witches in "Swap Meat."

 

So I'm conflicted on that one.

[Demented Daisy]

No conflict here.  Kill a witch when s/he has harmed people.  Without any knowledge that a witch is bad/evil/whatever, they risk killing an innocent by mistake.  That's an unacceptable risk in my book.  

 

There is good magic in this universe -- Sam and Dean practice it all the time.  They've scried, they've summoned, they've bound people.  

 

As soon as Sam and Dean decide their lives are more important than anyone else, they cease being "good guys", IMO.

And they're pretty damn close to crossing that line.

[SueB]

No conflict here.  Kill a witch when s/he has harmed people.  Without any knowledge that a witch is bad/evil/whatever, they risk killing an innocent by mistake.  That's an unacceptable risk in my book.  

 

There is good magic in this universe -- Sam and Dean practice it all the time.  They've scried, they've summoned, they've bound people.  

 

As soon as Sam and Dean decide their lives are more important than anyone else, they cease being "good guys", IMO.

And they're pretty damn close to crossing that line.

 

1) I agree that unless a witch has harmed or is in the process of harming (imminent threat), then I don't think lethal force is warranted. 

 

2) I think they treated the the witch appropriately.  They had, at best, potentially conflicting information regarding her threat level.  She claimed to be 'nobody's 3rd cousin' but she was invited to a meeting with Rowena.  It's possibly she was, in fact, a weak witch and not much of a threat. She was, after all, pretty terrified by the demon.  OTOH... common sense says that if she's either a "borrower" or "taught", she's not a match for a demon.  But that doesn't mean she wasn't powerful enough.  She attempted a verbal spell before Dean stopped her.  If that was not going to be an effective spell against the two hunters with fake FBI badges, why try? So... I think treating her a a potential big threat, and thus somewhat roughly, was warranted.  Then again, they let her walk after they had her do the scry.   Which leads me to...

 

3) What SHOULD be their policy regarding witches practicing black magic?  Live and let live?  Gank them when they become violent?  That's kinda what I've seen so far.  Generally they aren't hunting witches until there's a death that brings them to the area.  If he/she's a "borrower", they're in league with a demon.  If he/she's a "taught", she could be either practicing black or 'white' magic.  I consider the spells that hunters do 'taught' magic.  Some white, some black.  I do think that like Buffy (of Buffy the Vampire Slayer), you can't turn them over to the local police so 'they ARE the law'.  I imagine some hunters gank them if they find them practicing.  Witches are apparently hard to kill.  Sounds like the Men of Letters hunted them down (at least from the witches' POV). And once you identified a witch, what's to prevent the witch from preemptively striking if they think the hunter is a threat?  Complicated.  My personal opinion: no ganking unless they are an active threat to civilians or have already killed/harmed. Remind them that they know how to kill witches and won't hesitate if they find out they are harming others (like the threat they gave Kate). If you are Sam and Dean, it wouldn't hurt to mention that they've taken out some pretty big fish so it would be unwise to try and take them (Sam and Dean) on.  Seems like witches know to stay below the radar these days as it is.    

[Demented Daisy]

They've only killed one witch, in the episode that shall not be named.  Every other time, the witch has lived or someone else (usually a demon) killed the witch.

 

If not for that one episode, I might think Sam and Dean are incapable of killing witches.  

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

They've only killed one witch, in the episode that shall not be named.  Every other time, the witch has lived or someone else (usually a demon) killed the witch.

 

If not for that one episode, I might think Sam and Dean are incapable of killing witches.  

Didn't Dean kill that witch in About A Boy?

[SueB]

Yes. Wicked Witch in the Oven. A classic. Plus Charlie killed the Wicked Witch of the West with Oz high heels.

[DittyDotDot]

They've been successful with killing witches since S8, I think. Before that, all the witches they came up against always got away or something. But now they have Bobby's witch-killing spell working and the poppy bullets, so they have options if they need them.

[Demented Daisy]

I had forgotten about About a Boy -- but according to the Super-wiki, the rest were killed by someone else.  (I suppose the shtriga is debatable.  Dean killed her, but I think of it as a monster, not a witch like the rest of them.  Mileage varies, of course.)

 

 

Yes. Wicked Witch in the Oven. A classic. Plus Charlie killed the Wicked Witch of the West with Oz high heels.

 

 

Like I said -- someone else killed the witch.  Same with the Wizard of Oz; Charlie killed him, too.

 

 

They've been successful with killing witches since S8, I think. Before that, all the witches they came up against always got away or something. But now they have Bobby's witch-killing spell working and the poppy bullets, so they have options if they need them.

 

 

They used Bobby's spell in MBFwB.  The rest have been killed by Charlie, a demon, or Rowena.  Or they got away.

 

As far as I'm concerned, my point still stands.  They aren't exactly successful when it comes to killing witches.  *shrug*

[Aeryn13]

 

Generally they aren't hunting witches until there's a death that brings them to the area.

 

Which is generally true for everything they hunt. They only ever find their cases by catching news of something weird/homicidal going on. At worst, they initially have the wrong suspect if there is a good witch/monster/whatever vs. the real culprit. If somehow a supernatural being can and does live a perfectly normal life, no Winchester or hunter will ever, ever find it and, going by this show, the chances are much higher they will be killed by some other evil supernatural being. 

 

I didn`t think anything over the line happened in this episode. Sure, they made that witch in the interview room spill out necessary information but it was about the level of threatening, I can get from any old suspect interview in any old crime drama. Compared to the seen-them-a-million-time-demon-torture-scenes, this scene was so mild, I thought nothing of it. For the situation and not knowing the witches`power level, their behaviour was entirely appropriate. Anyone can play meek and scared. I would have been annoyed if they fell for it easily. 

[DittyDotDot]

As far as I'm concerned, my point still stands.  They aren't exactly successful when it comes to killing witches.  *shrug*

 

Sorry, I thought you were just asking if they had the ability to kill witches.

 

On a related note, where did Sam get those poppy bullets he was using when he held the gun on Rowena? The poppies were supposed to be from Oz, I thought, and they only had enough to make a few bullets and I thought they had used them all in Slumber Party. It's funny I didn't even question it until this discussion got me thinking about it. Sigh.

[Demented Daisy]

Is that what he said?  Huh.  Good question.  I assumed the poppy bullets only worked on the Wicked Witch.  Did they say it would work on all witches?

[DittyDotDot]

Maybe they weren't the poppy bullets, Sam said they were witch-killing bullets, so I assumed.

 

You know what happens when you assume, right?

[rue721]

I thought that regular bullets could kill Rowena? Is anything special about her that if you shot her in the head, it would be no big deal? Pretty much anything you shoot in the head is probably going to go kaput, I would think?

 

ETA:  I thought that he said "witch killing bullets" to say that his gun would work on her as well as on anyone, not that he had special bullets for her/witches. Just my interpretation when I was watching, though.

Edited October 28, 2015 by rue721

[catrox14]

I thought that regular bullets could kill Rowena? Is anything special about her that if you shot her in the head, it would be no big deal? Pretty much anything you shoot in the head is probably going to go kaput, I would think?

 

ETA:  I thought that he said "witch killing bullets" to say that his gun would work on her as well as on anyone, not that he had special bullets for her/witches. Just my interpretation when I was watching, though.

 

Sam was shown making witch-killing bullets at the beginning of Brother's Keeper. 

[DittyDotDot]

I thought that regular bullets could kill Rowena? Is anything special about her that if you shot her in the head, it would be no big deal? Pretty much anything you shoot in the head is probably going to go kaput, I would think?

 

ETA:  I thought that he said "witch killing bullets" to say that his gun would work on her as well as on anyone, not that he had special bullets for her/witches. Just my interpretation when I was watching, though.

 

I don't know, but they've never shot a witch before with regular bullets, so I guess I assumed they would've tried that with the numerous witches who escaped or they let go over the years because they couldn't kill them previous to the spell Bobby dug up in S7 and the poppy bullets in S9.

 

Rowena is a natural, I think that alone makes her special. If nothing else, she can stop the bullets or fling the gun with a spell like she did here.

[Wynne88]

It's taken me all week to get around to wondering, why did Crowley give Amara a dress with bloodstains on it?  He certainly dresses himself well, so it's not like he's scrounging clothes from wherever he can get them.  Giving her that stained dress was a deliberate choice that he passed off very casually.

[SueB]

Test of bloodlust or evil? IDK. I think it WAS a test of her reaction.

[Omegamom]

I thought it was Girl!Lilith's dress?

[catrox14]

I thought it was Girl!Lilith's dress?

 

Lilith's dress had a lot more blood on it. Practically the entire front of her dress was bloody

[catrox14]

What the shit? No seriously WTF?  From the ChicagoCon M&G with Jensen as reported by Fangasm, about Jensen directing the Fortune Nookie scene.

 

Be advised there are spoilers in the report but I'm including the link for reference.

https://fangasmthebook.wordpress.com/2015/10/28/meet-and-greet-tidbits-from-chicon-jensen-ackles-on-directing-spn/

 

I don't even know how to process this.

He apparently spent a bit too long filming the Fortune Nookie episode that Cas unwittingly pulls up on Dean’s laptop (which was edited down to about ten seconds, I’d estimate). He had the actresses, who were excellent, all over the place, he said. Including the bed, of course. Then Jared and Jensen’s stand ins, Jay and Jason (because clearly if you want to work on Supernatural your name should begin with a J…), who look quite a bit like Jared and Jensen (and Sam and Dean) came in dressed in lingerie and full makeup and joined the ladies on the bed. Go Sam and Dean! If there isn’t gag reel footage of that, it’s some kind of crime. Maybe we can convince Jensen to share the footage that’s on his cell phone…

[Aeryn13]

So they joked around with the scene. Seems innocuous enough to me. I still 100 % blame the writers for putting another Asian porn joke in in the first place.  

[catrox14]

 

So they joked around with the scene. Seems innocuous enough to me. I still 100 % blame the writers for putting another Asian porn joke in in the first place.

 

I think you misunderstand my 'WTF' . Obviously, I blame the writers for the existence of the scene in the first place. No point unless it turns into a Gabriel appearance. But what I'm trying to fathom is whether the rest of it with "Sam and Dean" in women's lingerie was scripted or not. If it was scripted what was the context?  If it was just Jensen screwing around on set making a joke that's a completely different thing that I don't really care about.

[Aeryn13]

 

But what I'm trying to fathom is whether the rest of it with "Sam and Dean" in women's lingerie was scripted or not.

 

The way I understood the story was that the stand-ins were doing something like a little prank with coming into the shot, dressed in lingerie and Jensen just kept the cameras rolling. I doubt it was scripted. 

[catrox14]

Fair enough. I guess I didn't read it that way, but that's probably the case. 

[FlickChick]

Punk the director. They're all nuts there I think.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

These first few eps were kind of playing in the background yesterday while I was laid out on the couch.  So I wasn't paying real close attention since I had seen them previously.  

• I remember being much more interested in young Amara the first time though.  Now she just bored me.  
• Really don't understand why Cas was chasing/attacking the woman in the warehouse.  I know he's still under the effects of the spell, but why her?
• Love the boys interaction with Roweena and the witch at the police station.
• Damn Cas, just reach over and 'Touched by an Angel' Dean already.  His face was making me hurt.  

[Mick Lady]

On rewatch, this episode is the one that made me fall in love with Rowena. This exchange did it!

Rowena: You do recall our deal, eh? First I de-spell the angel, then I go free.

Dean: Mm, except for one thing.

Rowena: There were no exceptions in our arrangement.

Dean: The book. Gonna need that baby back.

Rowena: The book was never mentioned in our negotiations.

Dean: Well, now it is.

Rowena: Our deal says --

Dean: Our deal says whatever I want it to say. You're gonna play by my rules because I have your son on speed dial.

Rowena: Call him. If I'm dead, you've got a big fat pile of nothing. No book ever. And your friend with the bent halo? He goes foaming-at-the-mouth mad and dies. Your turn!

 

The way she say's "Your turn!" I laughed like hell!

[Wayward Son]

Some may be surprised I'm posting this since I can be hard on Dean, but I don't think he did anything wrong when talking to the girl. I just got the vibe he was trying to be approachable so he could ask about Cas, but she stunned him by blowing him off and walking on. His reaction afterwards seemed to be shock more than anything. 

I don't think, considering the worry he otherwise showed, Dean intended to take a break from the Cas search for a quick hook up. 

[bettername2come]

One of these days, I'm gonna cosplay Rowena and just walk around saying "Mega Coven." (Stop trying to make "Mega Coven" happen. It's never gonna happen)

I like Sam sticking up for God. And then suggesting Metatron. "That's just like saying it." Poor Castiel. Sam calls his car crappy and he passes out. It's nice to have all three of the boys together for this one. 

I love the demon and angel just chilling at the bar and complaining about work. I expected that scene to end badly since it reminded me of the Zechariah scene. 

I never thought I'd hear Crowley reference Taylor Swift.  Rowena looks creepy as a blonde. Like vampiric or ghostly. Love seeing her in the backseat of the Impala and hearing Sam and Dean shoot her down in unison. She's really one of the best villains on this show. 

Now onto "Baby!"

[Hanahope]

Lol Mega Coven.  I love how Rowena says that with such pride and the other witches are just ‘yawn’

Glad Cas finally got cured.  

Rowena is fun, but seems almost too powerful. She definitely should not go blonde again, it really washed her out.

the angel and demon having a drink at the bar, haha.

About time Amara got older. 

[The Companion]

On 10/21/2015 at 10:30 PM, catrox14 said:

Also, I just want to leave this here, for....science...because...damn,

Why didn't science look like that when I was in school? I could have been a doctor 

On 10/22/2015 at 5:42 AM, Demented Daisy said:

 

I know it's an unpopular opinion, but too many mentions of God for him not to show up eventually.  Amara totally has the knowledge on how to lock her away.  Who's got money on Dean getting it out of her?  

 

Spoiler

Not sure if he shows up this season, but thanks to Google showing me spoilery headlines for the current season, this observation evidently has merit.

On 10/22/2015 at 8:44 AM, TexasGal said:

Every time she said the name I was giggling.  Which I THINK was what they were going for.  But, I love Rowena and her over the top evilness.

 

I was really hoping that the Trickster was going to make an appearance when the computer randomly started showing porn.

Me too. Mega Coven!

I would have loved it if the Trickster showed 

On 10/22/2015 at 11:46 AM, Omegamom said:

 

May I just add that show writers have abso-effing-lutely NO idea how city women behave late at night? Yeah, yeah, I'll just go walking down this alley at night with my nose buried in my phone. Naw, I'm not already nervous and uptight, i don't have my key ring in my fist with the keys poking out, and, of course when a man confronts me, I won't run straight to the street with, hopefully, people around, I'll just go deeper into the alley and then into a dark, abandoned building with no idea whether there are other exits. Thirty years ago in Chicago I had better safety-for-women instincts than that. Sheesh.

I got creeped out the other day in a well lit parking garage!

 

On 10/26/2015 at 2:16 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

 

As for Sam and Dean's attitude towards her because she was a witch - I kind of understood them on that. They had no patience for her lying at that point since they wanted to find Cas. Also neither Dean or especially Sam* have really had many good experiences with witches in the past. Either the witches know what they are doing - in which case they are working with a demon for power - or they are painfully naive. As of late, neither Sam nor Dean has as much sympathy for either of those scenarios as they used to, especially when someone they love is in danger.

 

* Especially with witches' propensities to curse him with venereal diseases (without even the benefit of at least having the fun part usually involved in getting them,) I don't blame Sam for disliking witches at all. (And thinking about not getting the "benefits." Poor Sam: his body has likely had more sex without him in it than he's had while in his body. Between soulless Sam, body-swapping teen manwitches, and who knows what Meg did while she was occupying him, I can only imagine.)

Poor Sam. And even when he gets laid, his partner dies.

On 10/26/2015 at 5:10 PM, Demented Daisy said:

They've only killed one witch, in the episode that shall not be named.  Every other time, the witch has lived or someone else (usually a demon) killed the witch.

 

If not for that one episode, I might think Sam and Dean are incapable of killing witches.  

I am still mad about the couple in Shut Up, Dr. Phil

On 9/9/2017 at 9:43 PM, bettername2come said:

 

I love the demon and angel just chilling at the bar and complaining about work. I expected that scene to end badly since it reminded me of the Zechariah scene. 

I never thought I'd hear Crowley reference Taylor Swift.  Rowena looks creepy as a blonde. Like vampiric or ghostly. Love seeing her in the backseat of the Impala and hearing Sam and Dean shoot her down in unison. She's really one of the best villains on this show. 

Now onto "Baby!"

I think the bar scene is one of my favorites in the show. JA clearly got the humor of that scene.

On 10/28/2015 at 1:40 AM, catrox14 said:

What the shit? No seriously WTF?  From the ChicagoCon M&G with Jensen as reported by Fangasm, about Jensen directing the Fortune Nookie scene.

 

Be advised there are spoilers in the report but I'm including the link for reference.

https://fangasmthebook.wordpress.com/2015/10/28/meet-and-greet-tidbits-from-chicon-jensen-ackles-on-directing-spn/

 

I don't even know how to process this.

This is super interesting. Jensen did a good job, IMO. I will say he is going to break a lot of hearts if his post-Supernatural plan is to be behind the camera. 

 

I found this one fairly entertaining. I do wish they would amp up the evil with Crowley. His Mom seems more evil and intimidating. I can't decide if Crowley is trying to control Amara or if this is defensive. 

On the much discussed hit on a random lady scene, it read like he was hitting on her to me and it was a bit jarring. 

I loved the Castiel/Dean scenes in this one. I continue to be impressed that JA directs such intense stories for his character.