Dean Winchester: aka Squirrel

[Nick24]

3 hours ago, roamyn said:

I didn’t see them as trying to redeem Lucifer in S13, just to show how manipulative and charming he could be.

Taking to the writers thread

Edited June 3, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

Season 2 vs. Season 10. Does he age? 

Pre-S14. There is no much difference, is there?

[Nick24]

Dreamy Dean for the uplifting!

[FlickChick]

We've known for a long time that Jensen has an aging portrait hidden in his attic! 😉

[Nick24]

21 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

We've known for a long time that Jensen has an aging portrait hidden in his attic! 😉

Could he give us one too? 😄

[Casseiopeia]

The only episode that Dean Winchester never appeared in Supernatural.

[Nick24]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

The only episode that Dean Winchester never appeared in Supernatural.

I'm not sure if it was a question. Well, if it was, then 14.01 Stranger In A Strange Land *salting&burning this one*. If it wasn't, my apologies 😊

[Casseiopeia]

3 hours ago, Nick24 said:

I'm not sure if it was a question. Well, if it was, then 14.01 Stranger In A Strange Land *salting&burning this one*. If it wasn't, my apologies 😊

It was and I should have written that after coffee.

[FlickChick]

Yeah, let's not forget that Dean was not in that episode (actually until the end of the next episode as well), so that the other characters "could breathe". I can't believe that any showrunner would say that about one of the lead actors. Fuck Badd!

[Nick24]

47 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Yeah, let's not forget that Dean was not in that episode (actually until the end of the next episode as well), so that the other characters "could breathe"

That ep made it absolutely clear, that SPN was dead without Dean Winchester. He was the heart of SPN, regardless of how hard the writers were trying to put their pets at the center. 

47 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I can't believe that any showrunner would say that about one of the lead actors. Fuck Badd!

Neither can I believe that any showrunner would ruin the whole meaning of the 15(!!!)-years-show with his meta crap in the final season. Fuck Dabb and all his gang!

Edited July 13, 2022 by Nick24

[Aithne]

https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/the-boys-jensen-ackles-soldier-boy-dean-winchester-1235307355/

I like JA's take on this, because there were a number of times that other characters tried to taunt Dean with this notion that he was desperate for John's approval, that he couldn't live up to him, etc. JA lays out what I think we always saw in the performance - that Dean idolized what he perceived as his dad's heroism, but he's not chasing John's approval. It's not a SB-esque thing, where he doesn't feel good enough. It's more of a positive thing - born of respect rather than insecurity. That's why his perceived failures haunt him as much as they do - because he was accustomed to bring relied upon and trusted with (too much, for his age) responsibility. He believed he should be able to handle anything and everything, and if he slipped, it was that much more egregious for being unexpected. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Aithne

[tessathereaper]

I wouldn't say it was positive, but yeah it wasn't John's approval he was looking for.  He knew how to get John's approval if he wanted it.  He didn't take actions based on John's approval but on the fact that he felt, due to John putting him in that position, his family's survival depended on him taking certain actions, playing a certain role which all started when he was way too young to put in those positions. 

[ahrtee]

34 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

I wouldn't say it was positive, but yeah it wasn't John's approval he was looking for.  He knew how to get John's approval if he wanted it.  He didn't take actions based on John's approval but on the fact that he felt, due to John putting him in that position, his family's survival depended on him taking certain actions, playing a certain role which all started when he was way too young to put in those positions. 

IA that he wasn't aiming for John's approval.  After all, I don't think he ever really got it (except for the time he bullseyed all his targets at age 6.)  That's why he was so suspicious when John told him he was proud of him in Devil's Trap and IMTOD.

No, I think he was more afraid* of John's *disapproval* (as in Something Wicked, when he said John "looked at him different" after his failure.)  And yes, failure meant putting his family (especially Sam) in danger.  

*ETA: Maybe I should say, "wanting to avoid" rather than afraid. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by ahrtee

[MAK]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

ETA: Maybe I should say, "wanting to avoid" rather than afraid

I think everyone can agree that Dean was who he was because of John and how John raised him.

Yes, John was a shit Dad. But, Dean didn't *feel* neglected. Was that because of the away abuse victims blame themselves and absolve the abuser? Maybe. Dean may have figured that out by the time Sam left for Stanford, or the time in S3 Dream episode. He was probably always striving to be perfect in John's eyes, and always falling short.

But *growing up*, he felt loved and trusted, so he willingly accepted the responsibility John put on him. Was John wrong to that? Of course. But young Dean didn't see that. He saw that his Dad trusted him to watch his little brother. He saw John's admonishments about salt lines and guns as love of a father keeping his sons safe. He saw value in what John was doing, and decided he had to play his part. He saw so much value, that he aspired to be that "hero," however unsung, himself. He knew there was no money or glory. And he was officially ok with that after getting back from Sonny's.** (The event he describes in his conversation with Gordon seems to be soon after his stint at Sonny's, going by the ages mentioned.) And Dean did feel like John trusted him, because John sent Dean on solo hunts.

No matter what people say, I don't think John left Dean alone with Sam until Dean was like 7/8. Even then, there would have been a babysitter for Sam while Dean was at school, until Sam started full day school. John was not an enlightened soul, he would treat his kids in the manner he grew up, meaning how kids were raised in 60s. School age (2nd grade onwards) kids were left to their own resources a lot then. Was it right to do that in the 90s? No, but did John really know any better? Was his mother still alive to correct him?

And about leaving the boys at Bobby's, would that have been any better? Except for maybe the stability of not moving around, how would Bobby have treated them any different? Was he going to take them on playdates? Do crafts with them on rainy days? Tuck them in and read them a story? Would he hire a sitter if he went out on a call for towing? He would have left them to their own devices, making sure to tell Dean, to "Don't forget to clean up, and watch your brother, make sure he doesn't get into things." Not a whole lot different than John. And Dean would still have taken on the burden of *raising* Sam. Bobby was not their father, just a nice guy, why would he expect anything from him?

**It has become confusing as to why he was at Sonny's, but Dean says he lost the food money gambling, not that they ran out of money.  Again, not excusing John's decision to leave Dean behind, but understanding Dean's view about it. He totally blamed himself, and felt the "desertion" was deserved. 

 

[Nick24]

6 minutes ago, MAK said:

**It has become confusing as to why he was at Sonny's, but Dean says he lost the food money gambling, not that they ran out of money.  Again, not excusing John's decision to leave Dean behind, but understanding Dean's view about it. He totally blamed himself, and felt the "desertion" was deserved. 

That's the problem IMO. Dean had been always blaming himself for everything because of the way John was treating him. As a viewer I'll never be able to forgive John for this.

[ahrtee]

8 minutes ago, MAK said:

No matter what people say, I don't think John left Dean alone with Sam until Dean was like 7/8. Even then, there would have been a babysitter for Sam while Dean was at school, until Sam started full day school. John was not an enlightened soul, he would treat his kids in the manner he grew up, meaning how kids were raised in 60s. School age (2nd grade onwards) kids were left to their own resources a lot then. Was it right to do that in the 90s? No, but did John really know any better? Was his mother still alive to correct him?

And about leaving the boys at Bobby's, would that have been any better?

The difference is that, back in the 60s, there wasn't as much fear/danger for kids as later.  There were certainly as many dangerous people around, but people weren't as aware.  I grew up in the 60s at a time when the worst thing to worry about was a kid accidentally setting fire to the house, not someone breaking in or kidnapping them from a playground.  My sister and I and all the neighborhood kids used to play together unsupervised all day long.  If someone got hurt, we went to whatever kid's house was nearest and there was always a mother there somewhere to put a bandaid on it.  

But John not only knew the modern dangers facing "normal" kids, he knew about the supernatural dangers.  And while I could see him trusting Dean, the son he'd trained to recognize and deal with that kind of danger, better than any unenlightened babysitter, it was still too much for a boy of 7 or 8 (as we saw in Something Wicked).  John didn't need his mother to correct him.  He would be the one telling her of all the additional dangers she would never have dreamed of.  

And yes, leaving the boys with Bobby (or Pastor Jim, or the Harvelles, or any trained hunters) would have been better.  Dean wouldn't have had all the burden of protecting Sam, because there was another trusted hunter around to take that responsibility, even if they were left alone for brief periods.  

I would have hoped that, if John hadn't felt so guilty about Bill Harvelle, Ellen would have been the perfect place to drop the boys off, even if only for brief periods.   We don't know exactly when Bill was killed, but Jo was already "in pigtails" (and roughly Sam's age) so there would have been several years, when John was considered "like family", when it could have worked, but since Dean had no memories of them, apparently John didn't want to.  

[tessathereaper]

21 minutes ago, MAK said:

I think everyone can agree that Dean was who he was because of John and how John raised him.

Yes, John was a shit Dad. But, Dean didn't *feel* neglected. Was that because of the away abuse victims blame themselves and absolve the abuser? Maybe. Dean may have figured that out by the time Sam left for Stanford, or the time in S3 Dream episode. He was probably always striving to be perfect in John's eyes, and always falling short.

But *growing up*, he felt loved and trusted, so he willingly accepted the responsibility John put on him. Was John wrong to that? Of course. But young Dean didn't see that. He saw that his Dad trusted him to watch his little brother. He saw John's admonishments about salt lines and guns as love of a father keeping his sons safe. He saw value in what John was doing, and decided he had to play his part. He saw so much value, that he aspired to be that "hero," however unsung, himself. He knew there was no money or glory. And he was officially ok with that after getting back from Sonny's.** (The event he describes in his conversation with Gordon seems to be soon after his stint at Sonny's, going by the ages mentioned.) And Dean did feel like John trusted him, because John sent Dean on solo hunts.

No matter what people say, I don't think John left Dean alone with Sam until Dean was like 7/8. Even then, there would have been a babysitter for Sam while Dean was at school, until Sam started full day school. John was not an enlightened soul, he would treat his kids in the manner he grew up, meaning how kids were raised in 60s. School age (2nd grade onwards) kids were left to their own resources a lot then. Was it right to do that in the 90s? No, but did John really know any better? Was his mother still alive to correct him?

And about leaving the boys at Bobby's, would that have been any better? Except for maybe the stability of not moving around, how would Bobby have treated them any different? Was he going to take them on playdates? Do crafts with them on rainy days? Tuck them in and read them a story? Would he hire a sitter if he went out on a call for towing? He would have left them to their own devices, making sure to tell Dean, to "Don't forget to clean up, and watch your brother, make sure he doesn't get into things." Not a whole lot different than John. And Dean would still have taken on the burden of *raising* Sam. Bobby was not their father, just a nice guy, why would he expect anything from him?

**It has become confusing as to why he was at Sonny's, but Dean says he lost the food money gambling, not that they ran out of money.  Again, not excusing John's decision to leave Dean behind, but understanding Dean's view about it. He totally blamed himself, and felt the "desertion" was deserved. 

 

Dean was 9 years old when John left Dean and Sam alone for 3 days in Something Wicked and it clearly wasn't unusual by then.  It may not have been 7 or 8 but 9 years old is still very young to be left with total responsibility for oneself and a younger sibling for an entire weekend.  And yes it was in the 60's,70's and 80's.  I was a kid in the 70's and 80's, I remember them.  It was different in the sense that you had more freedom and weren't being hovered over but no most people did not and would not leave their kids alone for 3 days, hundreds of miles from the nearest "sanctioned" help(Pastor Jim in the case of Something Wicked) in a motel in a strange town, oh and given a gun and told shoot first and ask questions later.(responsible for life and death of yourself and your sibling).  He was gone for at least a week in the Christmas episode and Dean was only 12.  

And there were not cell phones back then, only very rich people had them and they were big, not the sort of thing you could carry in a pocket.  That didn't happen until the mid-late 90s by which time Dean was grown and Sam were almost grown.

Dean lost the money gambling because they were almost out of money and he gambled hoping he could get more of it.  We already know Dean went hungry at times, and Sam didn't, so he was probably used to them running out of money for food before John got back and he decided to try and use what little they had left to win more.  He lost but it's not like oh he's just some dumb irresponsible teenager gambling for giggles.  

[MAK]

IA with all your responses. I too grew up in 70s/80s. Latchkey kid since 9. Sometimes left in the car (by choice) with a book while parents shopped. Sometimes left alone in the evenings (with kid brother) when parents went out. Times were different. But, even with all that, I didn't raise my kids that way.

And I didn't say John was right, he should have known better. Over all, it would have been healthier and safer to leave the kids with trusted hunters. We can see that as experienced adults. But I was writing more from child Dean's POV, which is what Jensen was talking about in the podcast. Child Dean would not consider these things.

[tessathereaper]

20 minutes ago, MAK said:

IA with all your responses. I too grew up in 70s/80s. Latchkey kid since 9. Sometimes left in the car (by choice) with a book while parents shopped. Sometimes left alone in the evenings (with kid brother) when parents went out. Times were different. But, even with all that, I didn't raise my kids that way.

And I didn't say John was right, he should have known better. Over all, it would have been healthier and safer to leave the kids with trusted hunters. We can see that as experienced adults. But I was writing more from child Dean's POV, which is what Jensen was talking about in the podcast. Child Dean would not consider these things.

Oh yeah I mean I should say I certainly didn't mind being left in the car(often with a book😃) while my mom and/or dad shopped, or being left alone for a few hours at home. I don't think it was a bad thing for kids to have more freedom in general.  But yeah what John did was well beyond that.

I agree,  I believe this is what Jensen is talking about, Dean didn't feel he needed his father's approval or was trying to win it, it's I don't know how to put it's more complicated than that.  As someone mentioned above, it was more John's disapproval he wanted to avoid.  Esp because in his mind, it would mean HE had put his family in danger and because he didn't do what he was supposed to they could have died. 

You know it's kind of like MM's OCD in The Boys except without the repetition of specific activities.  Basically for Dean, every failure potentially led to his family being dead and that is largely something that happened with John's encouragement.  Because he literally started making responsible for his little brother's life before he was in 4th grade.

[MAK]

I'm not sure where to put this, this thread is as close as possible. 

I don't know about anyone else, but I would love a thread/topic about Jensen Ackles characters. Where we can talk about his acting/styles/looks and compare the differences and/or similarities between his characters. 

Because I want to talk about the way JA slaughtered Abaddon and how SB kills Mindstorm. And other comparisons. 

It would be across a few different shows/movies so how would that work?

[Nick24]

@MAK What a great idea! I hope someone who knows the rules of the forum better will help with that.

5 hours ago, MAK said:

Because I want to talk about the way JA slaughtered Abaddon and how SB kills Mindstorm. 

Oh my, you're right, now I'm wondering, whether the writer of The Boys knew about Abaddon. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Nick24

[7kstar]

On 7/15/2022 at 1:42 AM, MAK said:

I don't know about anyone else, but I would love a thread/topic about Jensen Ackles characters. Where we can talk about his acting/styles/looks and compare the differences and/or similarities between his characters. 

Because I want to talk about the way JA slaughtered Abaddon and how SB kills Mindstorm. And other comparisons. 

Emma Snyder, could a new thread be created for this?

On 8/17/2021 at 1:03 PM, Emma Snyder said:

I am your new mod for Supernatural.

[Emma Snyder]

1 hour ago, 7kstar said:

Emma Snyder, could a new thread be created for this?

Create away!

[Bergamot]

@MAK commented in the SuperNormal thread:

Quote

Wonder why SPN didn't let Dean grow his hair, even as Demon!Dean  or the year he was with Lisa or in Purgatory? His hair game is on fire!

 When Dean was DemonDean, it seemed to me that he did grow his hair longer. It was brushed straight back and kind of poufy on top. Sometimes he would rake his fingers through it to push it back, and it would look all unruly and sexy!

While he was living with Lisa and Ben, I think Dean also let his hair grow out a little, but since he was the civilized, suburban dad version of Dean, he wore it combed neatly to one side. I would have liked to have seen it a bit longer, because it suited him as someone who at that time was out of the hunting life. He just looked softer, like in that scene in "Exile on Main Street" where we see him checking the front door before going to bed and he is padding comfortably around the house in just a tee shirt, sweatpants, and cozy white socks.

As for Purgatory, I seem to remember someone from the production side of the show saying that while Dean was there, he didn’t need to eat or drink. So I just assumed that his body was in some kind of stasis in Purgatory, and that his hair and beard did not grow. He just got very dirty and blood-stained, and his hair remained the same length but looked stiff with dirt. Otherwise that would have been a good opportunity to have his hair and beard grow out all wild and crazy, maybe like Soldier Boy when he was first set free!

[MAK]

Yes, there are in-universe explanations, and Demon!Dean did have longer hair.

But I was thinking production-wise, Demon!Dean and Lisa were first 3 episodes after hiatus. It was *possible* for Jensen to grow out his hair a couple of months. Maybe, the Demon!Dean hair was 2 months growth, who knows. 

Also, I think it wasn't really possible for the Purgatory storyline because I don't think they filmed all the scenes at once. Didn't Jensen say that after the first time, later on, he couldn't believe how much blood he had asked make-up to put on him?

[Nick24]

3 hours ago, MAK said:

Yes, there are in-universe explanations, and Demon!Dean did have longer hair.

But I was thinking production-wise, Demon!Dean and Lisa were first 3 episodes after hiatus. It was *possible* for Jensen to grow out his hair a couple of months. Maybe, the Demon!Dean hair was 2 months growth, who knows. 

But 6.04 was filmed first, because Jensen was directing it. So Dean needed shorter hair in this one I guess, then for filming 6.01 Jensen just didn't have enough time to grown out his hair. Probably there was the same issue with Purgatory. Actually I like that explanation with Dean body being in stasis, but it wouldn't explain Castiel's beard. 

Though I like Jensen's longer hairstyle, I wanted a beard for Dean. He would've looked fascinating! Well, Dean was always fascinating, but I loved his look with break-up beard in S9 and then in the beginning of 15.04. There were so many opportunities to let Dean grow out a beard. Demon!Dean could have done that, for instance. That's a shame they didn't do that :(

Edited July 22, 2022 by Nick24

[Aithne]

18 hours ago, Bergamot said:

@MAK commented in the SuperNormal thread:

 When Dean was DemonDean, it seemed to me that he did grow his hair longer. It was brushed straight back and kind of poufy on top. Sometimes he would rake his fingers through it to push it back, and it would look all unruly and sexy!

While he was living with Lisa and Ben, I think Dean also let his hair grow out a little, but since he was the civilized, suburban dad version of Dean, he wore it combed neatly to one side. I would have liked to have seen it a bit longer, because it suited him as someone who at that time was out of the hunting life. He just looked softer, like in that scene in "Exile on Main Street" where we see him checking the front door before going to bed and he is padding comfortably around the house in just a tee shirt, sweatpants, and cozy white socks.

As for Purgatory, I seem to remember someone from the production side of the show saying that while Dean was there, he didn’t need to eat or drink. So I just assumed that his body was in some kind of stasis in Purgatory, and that his hair and beard did not grow. He just got very dirty and blood-stained, and his hair remained the same length but looked stiff with dirt. Otherwise that would have been a good opportunity to have his hair and beard grow out all wild and crazy, maybe like Soldier Boy when he was first set free!

And yet Cas grew stubble, haha. So inconsistent. JA looked gorgeous with the wild hair - that scene where SB is back in the states and looking around at everything and is just like wtf, he's so pretty. But I think they were going for a soldiers bonding in a foxhole vibe with him and Benny, so the mountain man look was not to be. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Aithne

[Nick24]

For the first time I got to listen to Kansas song ''Nobody's Home''. Oh boy, the last lines of this song perfectly describe Dean's ending and what has happened to his legacy. I mean these:

Quote

A requiem was never sung
No elegy was read
No monument was carved in stone in memory of the dead
For those who made this place do not remain they feel no pain
A stranger fate was never known

I felt like crying because of the last line, because Sam couldn't even be bothered to tell anyone about Dean's death, so all their friends never got to know what had happened to Dean, they never got to say ''goodbye'' to Dean. For them Dean just disappeared. 

Sorry for bringing this up again. Bad me. I just needed to share.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Nick24

[7kstar]

7 hours ago, Nick24 said:

I felt like crying because of the last line, because Sam couldn't even be bothered to tell anyone about Dean's death, so all their friends never got to know what had happened to Dean, they never got to say ''goodbye'' to Dean. For them Dean just disappeared.

This is what fanfiction is for.  You create that moment.  Rewrite what was on the show.  Since they didn't maintain cannon, it doesn't do any harm.  Dabb who???

[Nick24]

13 minutes ago, 7kstar said:

This is what fanfiction is for.  You create that moment.  Rewrite what was on the show.  Since they didn't maintain cannon, it doesn't do any harm.  Dabb who???

I guess we all should get together, rewrite the last 4 seasons, then go back in time to 2016, fire Dabb/Singer and make the CW film our rewrites. Is there any free angel to facilitate? 😊

[MAK]

From The Winchesters- Teach your Children Well

Dean was very well read, regardless of what the writers or Sam would have us believe. 

He did a lot research when required, but IMO, he didn't like to do it. As he got older, he read, IMO, what he wanted because it interested him not because he "had to study it." Like Aesop, Chinese mind control, Vonnegut, etc.

He studied when he had to under John. He also took deep dives into trying to free Sam from the cage, getting information on Leviathans/Dick Roman, the MoC. These were actually shown on screen. I'm sure there were other instances not shown. He knew what needed to be done and how to do it. 

To me his approach was practical. If he can find the information by asking someone, or googling it, he won't bother searching for a book. The point of research in hunts was to catch the monster, not write a research paper, so the quicker he got the information the better. He didn't want to spend hours researching, not that he couldn't. 

[DeeDee79]

On 10/20/2022 at 5:13 AM, MAK said:

The point of research in hunts was to catch the monster, not write a research paper, so the quicker he got the information the better. He didn't want to spend hours researching, not that he couldn't. 

I love this point! 

[Bergamot]

Happy birthday, Dean! I still miss you so much!!