Dean Winchester: aka Squirrel

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

There were at least 3 werewolves and one had a gun

But there were only two (not counting Corbin) and the gun was Sam's wasn't it which Dean retrieved?

Edited January 4, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[gonzosgirrl]

51 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It's not just the dialogue but how Jensen played it that I thought Dean had decided to call it a day.

Dean is not a stupid hunter. IMO, if Dean didn't want to die along side Sam, and he was intending to survive, he wouldn't take on the werewolves alone. YES he wanted to kill the werewolves but IMO he had no intention of surviving. That's why I'm calling it suicide by werewolf.

That whole scene was terrible in retrospect. It was great acting by Jensen but the contrivances are ridiculous. IMO, Dean wouldn't have given up on Sam being dead that quickly. He would have tried to resuscitate Sam. He wouldn't have taken their word for any of it considering that earlier they had told him they should leave Sam behind and Dean was ready to go off on Corbin for that infraction. That's why he went outside to build the litter. IMO, the only reason Dean took their word is that he was in shock and instant grief and was not thinking clearly.

He would have put Sam's body on the litter anyway, dragged it back to the car and made the couple help him do it and fight the werewolves along the way.  And given the intentional suicide to get to Billie, Dean was still not really caring if he didn't survive. I mean he was intending to be resuscitated by the doctor and at the same time he said if this doesn't work it doesn't matter if I'm dead.  So that's kind of suicidal as well. And sudden shock and grief can, absolutely, lead to rash and poor decision making because nothing else seems to matter in that moment. Not doing things to ensure your well being is at worst self-defeating and possible a bit of slow suicide and at best neglect born of depression. I think that is what Dean was doing in Red Meat.  We'll have to agree to disagree on this one :)

I will say in general, I'm bothered by how often , under Dabb's watch, Dean has exhibited suicidal behavior be it actively seeking death or just not caring if he lived after something happened.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I just don't think Dean has ever been suicidal, barring the end of S11. Even then, I don't think he wanted to die so much as he wanted the Mark out of the picture at any cost, including his own existence. He has been reconciled with the idea of his own demise for a long time - from "it's a dangerous gig, Sammy" in Faith, to "I know how my story ends" in Girls Girls Girls. But actively, or even sub-consciously seeking death? Nope. Not in my opinion.

18 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

But there were only two (not counting Corbin) and the gun was Sam's wasn't it which Dean retrieved?

And Sam took them all on while gut shot and recently dead. So I would hope fully-functioning Dean would've at least stood a chance. Heh.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

But there were only two (not counting Corbin) and the gun was Sam's wasn't it which Dean retrieved?

There were two at the beginning and then another two, which lead me to think it was a pack. Corbin said more were coming and to me that implied more than one or two more. Not sure about Sam's gun

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

We'll have to agree to disagree. I just don't think Dean has ever been suicidal, barring the end of S11. Even then, I don't think he wanted to die so much as he wanted the Mark out of the picture at any cost, including his own existence. He has been reconciled with the idea of his own demise for a long time - from "it's a dangerous gig, Sammy" in Faith, to "I know how my story ends" in Girls Girls Girls. But actively, or even sub-consciously seeking death? Nope. Not in my opinion.

Fwiw I dont think he has a death wish or generally is depressed or suicidal nor gives up on life. I do think the thing with Amara messed with his head. He already had to ask Sam to fight Amara because he didn't think he could. He found out that Lucifer was possessing Cas and then when he saw Sam suddenly dead, I think that made him snap and he was like fuck it, Im going down fighting.

It was only after being tased and Corbin's wife telling him that death is not the end , that he decided to risk calling on Billie.

Do you think he was suicidal in 13..05 when Billie told him he wanted to die and he said he doesn't matter? That seemed like he just didn't care if he lived anymore.

I think this would be a great question for Jensen at a con or fro the writers to answer.

[bozodegama]

The only time i remember feeling that Dean was suicidal or had given up was in Point of no Return.  When he was packing up his leather jacket and putting his keys to the impala in the box, I thought he was done.  But then Sammy came in "What the hell, man.  This is how it ends"  and brought Cass in.  Then Bobby set him straight with the round in the gun he looked at every day.  When he told Bobby that he wasn't his father and wasn't in his shoes, the look that Sammy gave him was priceless.  One of the only times that I remember when Dean really let everyone down.  But then he stabbed Zachariah and everything was better.    

[Pondlass1]

Judging by recent pix at his brewery I'm thinking Jensen's New Year Resolution was to look even more beautifully handsome than ever!!! 

[gonzosgirrl]

47 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

The only time i remember feeling that Dean was suicidal or had given up was in Point of no Return.  When he was packing up his leather jacket and putting his keys to the impala in the box, I thought he was done.  But then Sammy came in "What the hell, man.  This is how it ends"  and brought Cass in.  Then Bobby set him straight with the round in the gun he looked at every day.  When he told Bobby that he wasn't his father and wasn't in his shoes, the look that Sammy gave him was priceless.  One of the only times that I remember when Dean really let everyone down.  But then he stabbed Zachariah and everything was better.    

I don't think so. I see 5x18 in the same light as 11x23. The only solutions he could see (to defeat Lucifer/defeat the Mark, respectively) involved him sacrificing himself. Maybe the literal definition of suicide, but IMO, not a desire to die. His death was the means to an end. Plus, Michael did promise that he wouldn't leave Dean a drooling mess, so there's that.

Maybe I have a different take on what being suicidal means. I do believe he's reckless at times, and puts other people's lives ahead of his own, without enough regard for his own value.  @catrox14 asked if I think he was suicidal in Advanced Thanatology. I don't, at least not actively. I think he did what Dean does - jumped in, and damn the consequences - and it wasn't until Billie pointed it out to him that he decided it didn't matter. Even then though, he said if it was his choice, he wanted to go back.

[Pondlass1]

We have a whole set of different people writing Dean.  Jensen keeps him on track.  

[bozodegama]

Yeah but the difference is in the early seasons there was no guarantee or excpectation that they would return if they died.  I guess Dean did expect he would return in Dark side of the Moon when he said he'd come back and be pissed when Walt and Roy shot him.  The later seasons I feel that he doesn't really feel death because he knows he will return.  And I don't really believe that Dean believed anything the Angels said.  I wouldn't after seeing what happened to that guy Raphael possessed.  And also, Michael lied because he did leave Adam a drooling mess in the end. 

[DittyDotDot]

53 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think so. I see 5x18 in the same light as 11x23. The only solutions he could see (to defeat Lucifer/defeat the Mark, respectively) involved him sacrificing himself. Maybe the literal definition of suicide, but IMO, not a desire to die. His death was the means to an end. Plus, Michael did promise that he wouldn't leave Dean a drooling mess, so there's that.

The only time I've seen Dean as somewhat wanting to die is the beginning of this season. And, even then I'm not sure I'd say it was suicidal as much as just not caring one way or the other. If Billy sent him back, fine; if not, so be it. It's a very fine line between suicide and recklessness, sometimes.

Edited January 5, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, bozodegama said:

The only time i remember feeling that Dean was suicidal or had given up was in Point of no Return.  When he was packing up his leather jacket and putting his keys to the impala in the box, I thought he was done.  But then Sammy came in "What the hell, man.  This is how it ends"  and brought Cass in.  Then Bobby set him straight with the round in the gun he looked at every day.  When he told Bobby that he wasn't his father and wasn't in his shoes, the look that Sammy gave him was priceless.  One of the only times that I remember when Dean really let everyone down.  But then he stabbed Zachariah and everything was better.    

I didn't think Dean was suicidal in that episode. He had made a conscious choice to say yes to Michael because he was convinced that Sam was going to say yes to Lucifer. And was preparing for a fight. It was a sad goodbye but he was doing it on purpose. It was Sam who decided he was killing himself, which really didn't make much sense when Sam did the same thing. But that a whole debate for another time.

Or like when he died to find Death to get Sam's soul back. Or even in s11 in Red Meat , the OD  intentional and he was banking on being revived but he was okay if he didn't live so that one felt a bit different.

In s13 he did the same thing as in s6 and I think he intended on coming back. Yet once he was dead, Billie called him out for wanting to die and he didn't deny it and admitted he felt  useless..

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't think Dean was suicidal in that episode. He had made a conscious choice to say yes to Michael because he was convinced that Sam was going to say yes to Lucifer. And was preparing for a fight. It was a sad goodbye but he was doing it on purpose. It was Sam who decided he was killing himself, which really didn't make much sense when Sam did the same thing. But that a whole debate for another time.

Or like when he died to find Death to get Sam's soul back. Or even in s11 in Red Meat , the OD  intentional and he was banking on being revived but he was okay if he didn't live so that one felt a bit different.

In s13 he did the same thing as in s6 and I think he intended on coming back. Yet once he was dead, Billie called him out for wanting to die and he didn't deny it and admitted he felt  useless..

Replied in Bitch vs Jerk

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe I have a different take on what being suicidal means. I do believe he's reckless at times, and puts other people's lives ahead of his own, without enough regard for his own value.  @catrox14 asked if I think he was suicidal in Advanced Thanatology. I don't, at least not actively. I think he did what Dean does - jumped in, and damn the consequences - and it wasn't until Billie pointed it out to him that he decided it didn't matter. Even then though, he said if it was his choice, he wanted to go back.

Dean said he had a brother to get back before Billie told him not so fast. But that wasn't when she gave him a choice. He agreed to tell her about the interdimensional travel, if she freed the ghosts and sent them to Heaven. He didn't choose himself. Then later when she called him on it this is what was said:

Quote

Billie: Because I do. Because…this whole multi-versal quantum construct we live in, it’s like a house of cards. And the last thing I need is some big, dumb Winchester knocking it all down.
Dean: Hmm. That does sound like us.
Billie: You’ve changed. When you bargained with me just now, you could’ve asked to go back, to live.
Dean: Well, I figured with you in charge, there’s no getting back for me.
Billie: That doesn’t sound like the Dean Winchester I know and love. The man who has been dead so many times but it never seems to stick. Maybe you’re not that guy anymore, they guy who saves the world, the guy who always thinks he’ll win no matter what. You have changed. And you tell people it’s not a big deal. You tell people you’ll work through it but you know you won’t, you can’t and that scares the hell out of you. Or… am I wrong?
Dean: What do you want me to say? Doesn’t matter. I don’t matter.
Billie: Don’t you?
Dean: I couldn’t save Mom. I couldn’t save Cas. I can’t even save a scared little kid. Sam keeps trying to fix it, but I just keep dragging him down. So I’m not going to beg. Okay, if it’s my time, it’s my time.
Billie: You really believe that. [Dean shakes his head yes] You wanna die. Dean…every notebook on this particular shelf tells a version of how you die. You specifically, heart attack, burned by a red-haired witch, stabbed by a ghoul in a graveyard, and on and on. But which ones right? That depends on you, on the choices you make.
Dean: Well, I guess I made my choice.
Billie: But…unfortunately none of these books say you die today.

He made his choice to stay dead. That's the choice he made after he decided to kill himself to get the kids from the veil. The thing that revealed though is that Dean has been having feelings of worthlessness and hopelessness. That happens with grief and depression. There is sadness in grief but IMO Dean is experiencing real depression in this episode and has been since Cas and Mary died. Dean isn't actively trying to end it all the time, but I think it percolates somewhere in his subconscious mind, that maybe death is the only thing that will heal his pain. And then he does things like this and it is really okay if he stays dead.

Maybe they are trying to look at Dean's PTSD in a real way for once and maybe this is a subtle examination of depression in a better way than what was done in s7. I feel like this is a more indepth look at Dean's psyche than what was in s7. I dunno. That's just me looking for it to have some potential good outcome for Dean and not ending with his own potential low key suicide.

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean said he had a brother to get back before Billie told him not so fast. But that wasn't when she gave him a choice. He agreed to tell her about the interdimensional travel, if she freed the ghosts and sent them to Heaven. He didn't choose himself. Then later when she called him on it this is what was said:

He made his choice to stay dead. That's the choice he made after he decided to kill himself to get the kids from the veil. The thing that revealed though is that Dean has been having feelings of worthlessness and hopelessness. That happens with grief and depression. There is sadness in grief but IMO Dean is experiencing real depression in this episode and has been since Cas and Mary died. Dean isn't actively trying to end it all the time, but I think it percolates somewhere in his subconscious mind, that maybe death is the only thing that will heal his pain. And then he does things like this and it is really okay if he stays dead.

Maybe they are trying to look at Dean's PTSD in a real way for once and maybe this is a subtle examination of depression in a better way than what was done in s7. I feel like this is a more indepth look at Dean's psyche than what was in s7. I dunno. That's just me looking for it to have some potential good outcome for Dean and not ending with his own potential low key suicide.

I still don't think he was suicidal. He was resigned, at least partially based on his knowledge of what they/Cas did to Billie and her earlier promise to make sure they stayed dead. And his doesn't matter/I don't matter was as low as he gets, I agree, but he also added that he wasn't going to beg her for his life. That's Dean, too. Bravado in the face of impossibilities. His "I made my choice" could be interpreted another way, IMO. She listed off the ways he could die (according to the ledgers) and he said he'd made his choice - the method of his death. It still doesn't have to mean he wanted to die. His first instinct, before Billie's speech, was to go back. His second instinct was to bargain for the spirits - the whole reason he did what he did - and that is also Dean-like, IMO - to put the victims above himself. It wasn't until Billie pressed him into thinking about things that the 'I don't matter' thing came about. So no, I don't think he was suicidal going into it.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

The only time I've seen Dean as somewhat wanting to die is the beginning of this season. And, even then I'm not sure I'd say it was suicidal as much as just not caring one way or the other. If Billy sent him back, fine; if not, so be it. It's a very fine line between suicide and recklessness, sometimes.

I think there is a low key bit of subconscious suicidal ideation by not caring if he lives or dies.  If a person is okay with death as a part of life, and is a risk in battle that's one thing. But that's not the same not caring if you live or die (you meaning the general you). I think that's more of a nihilistic if not necessary strictly suicidal. I do think with Dean it's more complicated because Dean is in a dangerous line of work where death is always at hand. Yet I think this time around the grief and depression were changing him to the degree that he didn't even really fight against the ghost with the drill. He could have done something different but didn't. So was he trying death by drill in that moment? No. I think he was maybe like, well, fuck it. If it happens it happens.  It's still a bad headspace for Dean (or anyone). And IMO it's all Dean's depression in s13. 

ETA: I guess what I am saying is that choosing to not really live is not really that different than choosing to end your life other than the form in a way. It's self-destructive behavior which technically is not wanting to kill yourself but it's still self-destructive. I think it's a slow, insidious fall into not caring if you live or die. And Dean generally has cared about living. So to me that's why I think it's on the edge of suicidal thinking.  It's all so complicated. The mind, grief, depression etc. Much too complicated to be handled that well in this show, that's for sure.  Yet I think that is what is going on with Dean's arc to this point.

[Res]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I think there is a low key bit of subconscious suicidal ideation by not caring if he lives or dies.  If a person is okay with death as a part of life, and is a risk in battle that's one thing. But that's not the same not caring if you live or die (you meaning the general you). I think that's more of a nihilistic if not necessary strictly suicidal. I do think with Dean it's more complicated because Dean is in a dangerous line of work where death is always at hand. Yet I think this time around the grief and depression were changing him to the degree that he didn't even really fight against the ghost with the drill. He could have done something different but didn't. So was he trying death by drill in that moment? No. I think he was maybe like, well, fuck it. If it happens it happens.  It's still a bad headspace for Dean (or anyone). And IMO it's all Dean's depression in s13. 

ETA: I guess what I am saying is that choosing to not really live is not really that different than choosing to end your life other than the form in a way. It's self-destructive behavior which technically is not wanting to kill yourself but it's still self-destructive. I think it's a slow, insidious fall into not caring if you live or die. And Dean generally has cared about living. So to me that's why I think it's on the edge of suicidal thinking.  It's all so complicated. The mind, grief, depression etc. Much too complicated to be handled that well in this show, that's for sure.  Yet I think that is what is going on with Dean's arc to this point.

My mother always told me that my clumsiness was a subconscious desire to kill myself. (I was 8 at the time.) Guess it all depends on a person's perspective and understanding of the word.

[catrox14]

29 minutes ago, Res said:

My mother always told me that my clumsiness was a subconscious desire to kill myself. (I was 8 at the time.) Guess it all depends on a person's perspective and understanding of the word.

I'm not really sure what part of my comment you're responding to here? I'm not talking about clumsiness. I think I've missed something.

[Res]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not really sure what part of my comment you're responding to here? I'm not talking about clumsiness. I think I've missed something.

Just a general comment that although I wasn't actively trying to kill myself at 8, as far as I know, she saw it that way. In the way you see Dean doing some things is suicidal, others are seeing the same thing. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you because I can see both sides. He is taking ridiculously dangerous actions which if he wasn't the lead of a supernatural show (or a soap opera) would result in him being dead a long time ago. However, because he is the lead, he hasn't really seen the suicidal nature of these things because he tends to always come back.  So I can see both sides and agree with both.

 

Honestly, I like it when he does these things. It's much better than comatose Dean from previous season. And what does he really have to live for anymore? To see what's left of his family die bloody? To betray him again and again in worse ways? I mean what kind of life does he really have left? 

 

I really believe the only peace he has left is the Empty, which isn't really comforting.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Res
Clarification maybe: Have a really bad stomach flu right now and am kind of out of it.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Res said:

Just a general comment that although I wasn't actively trying to kill myself at 8, as far as I know, she saw it that way. In the way you see Dean doing some things is suicidal, others are seeing the same thing. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you because I can see both sides. He is taking ridiculously dangerous actions which if he wasn't the lead of a supernatural show (or a soap opera) would result in him being dead a long time ago. However, because he is the lead, he hasn't really seen the suicidal nature of these things because he tends to always come back.  So I can see both sides and agree with both.

 

Honestly, I like it when he does these things. It's much better than comatose Dean from previous season. And what does he really have to live for anymore? To see what's left of his family die bloody? To betray him again and again in worse ways? I mean what kind of life does he really have left? 

 

I really believe the only peace he has left is the Empty, which isn't really comforting.

I gotcha. Thanks for replying! I was just a bit confused!

Yeah, it's tricky with Dean. And I think some of why I come to the conclusions I do is the context surrounding some of some of those actions.  Like to me in s6, it was clear he was going to risk his life to get Sam's soul back. His intentions weren't to kill himself or to be like okay if I die, I die. It was a risky maneuver and he was willing to try. If he died in the process it was worth the risk. He was fighting for Sam's life.

But in s11, when he thought Sam was dead and decided to fight the werewolves vs help those people live, I think the shock of losing Sam so fast and unexpectedly pushed Dean to both anger and nihilistic behavior. Not that his job isn't fraught with danger because it is but to me there are differences to when he makes those choices.

Dean is one complicated and contradictory guy at times. That's for sure.

[AwesomO4000]

14 hours ago, bozodegama said:

The only time i remember feeling that Dean was suicidal or had given up was in Point of no Return.  

Interesting. I didn't quite see it as that as much as Dean running away or trying to take the "easy" way out due to feeling the pressure.

The only time I really saw Dean as suicidal was in "Croatoan" when he was planning to commit suicide by infected Sam.

[bozodegama]

22 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Interesting. I didn't quite see it as that as much as Dean running away or trying to take the "easy" way out due to feeling the pressure.

The only time I really saw Dean as suicidal was in "Croatoan" when he was planning to commit suicide by infected Sam.

Taking the “easy” way out to relieve the pressure is the absolute definition of suicide.  If you watch point of no return you can even see Sammy saying to Dean that he’s going to kill himself.  I just think point of no return, like the title says, is Dean being at the ultimate brink of despair and ready to say yes to Michael which is anathema to free will and anything’s he ever stood for. It’s where he was at his lowest and has to be brought back by Bobby’s resolve, Cass’s beating and Sammys forgiveness.  It’s just a freaking great episode.  It has everything that makes Or made Supernatural so great. 

[catrox14]

42 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

Taking the “easy” way out to relieve the pressure is the absolute definition of suicide.  If you watch point of no return you can even see Sammy saying to Dean that he’s going to kill himself.  I just think point of no return, like the title says, is Dean being at the ultimate brink of despair and ready to say yes to Michael which is anathema to free will and anything’s he ever stood for. It’s where he was at his lowest and has to be brought back by Bobby’s resolve, Cass’s beating and Sammys forgiveness.  It’s just a freaking great episode.  It has everything that makes Or made Supernatural so great. 

I can't see how saying Yes to possession, fighting your own brother who Dean loved more than anything, in order to protect half the planet is giving up nor the "easy" way out especially when no one else had a better plan. And I love Castiel so much and I totally ship Destiel but FFS that beating was disgusting and I hate to think it actually had any affect on Dean at all much less should be seen as a way to bring Dean back. I hate when my fellow Destiel shippers ever use that for shipping reasons.

Gods, I hate that episode so much. I think I hate it as much as Swan Song LOL

Edited January 6, 2018 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, bozodegama said:

Taking the “easy” way out to relieve the pressure is the absolute definition of suicide.  If you watch point of no return you can even see Sammy saying to Dean that he’s going to kill himself.  

Yeah, I didn't explain myself that great there. Maybe what I say below will explain better?

As for Sam saying Dean was going to kill himself, Dean actually disputes Sam's assessment on that. Dean thinks that his decision is entirely reasonable. I might disagree with Dean's opinion on that, but I don't think he wanted to die just for dying's sake. He wanted to let Michael solve the problem to avoid future guilt. The means to do so just happened to mean that he would have to give up his free will for a while.

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I can't see how saying Yes to possession, fighting your own brother who Dean loved more than anything, in order to protect half the planet is giving up nor the "easy" way out especially when no one else had a better plan. And I love Castiel so much and I totally ship Destiel but FFS that beating was disgusting and I hate to think it actually had any affect on Dean at all much less should be seen as a way to bring Dean back.

I put "easy" in quotes, because I didn't really mean easy per se... I more meant quicker. It was easier only in the sense that Dean wouldn't have to wait anymore for Bobby, Sam, and Castiel to come up with something else. Dean didn't want the guilt he would have if waiting took too long and Sam said "yes" when he (Dean) thought that he could have stopped things ahead of time. And the point of Dean's saying"yes" then was to avoid having to fight Sam, so that was something else Dean would be avoiding having to face by his saying "yes." The main reason I wouldn't call it suicide is because Dean didn't want to die, but he also didn't want to have to face the waiting or the potentially having to fight and kill Sam.

However, Dean didn't go through with it, so he corrected his mistake before it happened. And yes, I think his decision to say "yes" was a mistake for all of the reasons I mentioned (here and in the other thread). No one having a better plan wasn't really an excuse for Sam in season 4, so I don't think it should really be an excuse for Dean here either.

As for Castiel, he can at times be a bit judgemental - Sam found that out also in "I Believe the Children..." He also sometimes tends to forget his own part in causing the problem in the first place. What he saw was Dean going against the plan they had been following the entire time - which had actually been Dean's plan - and a plan that he (Castiel) had sacrificed for. And Dean did so without giving Castiel a choice or vote in the matter and without explaining why he was doing it. Dean had forgotten "Team Free Will" and instead decided that he alone had the right to make the decision for everyone in the group... again, it wasn't right for Sam to do in season 4, and it wasn't right, in my opinion, for Dean to do here. I don't see why Dean's decision should have been supported when he pretty much said by his actions that he didn't give much thought to what anyone else wanted, or if he had, that he didn't care. Even if Sam, Castiel, and Bobby had considered that Dean's plan was a possible option, I don't see why they'd support Dean shutting them out the way that he did.

While I disagree with what Castiel did when he beat up Dean, I can certainly understand why Castiel was angry. Dean had pretty much thumbed his nose at Castiel and Sam believing in him and their cause and in Sam's case, had decided that he had no faith in him. And since he had no faith in Sam, that Sam's and Castiel's opinion meant nothing.

4 hours ago, bozodegama said:

It’s just a freaking great episode.

This I agree with you on. I love the episode.

[DeeDee79]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I can't see how saying Yes to possession, fighting your own brother who Dean loved more than anything, in order to protect half the planet is giving up nor the "easy" way out especially when no one else had a better plan. And I love Castiel so much and I totally ship Destiel but FFS that beating was disgusting and I hate to think it actually had any affect on Dean at all much less should be seen as a way to bring Dean back. I hate when my fellow Destiel shippers ever use that for shipping reasons.

Gods, I hate that episode so much. I think I hate it as much as Swan Song LOL

Love this post! Especially the parts that I've bolded.

[Myrelle]

On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 5:25 PM, Res said:

Just a general comment that although I wasn't actively trying to kill myself at 8, as far as I know, she saw it that way. In the way you see Dean doing some things is suicidal, others are seeing the same thing. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you because I can see both sides. He is taking ridiculously dangerous actions which if he wasn't the lead of a supernatural show (or a soap opera) would result in him being dead a long time ago. However, because he is the lead, he hasn't really seen the suicidal nature of these things because he tends to always come back.  So I can see both sides and agree with both.

 

Honestly, I like it when he does these things. It's much better than comatose Dean from previous season. And what does he really have to live for anymore? To see what's left of his family die bloody? To betray him again and again in worse ways? I mean what kind of life does he really have left? 

 

I really believe the only peace he has left is the Empty, which isn't really comforting.

I'm wondering if Dean is heading towards the idea that death might just be the release that he's never going to be allowed to experience. IOW, the true curse of Immortality,

On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 1:38 AM, catrox14 said:

I can't see how saying Yes to possession, fighting your own brother who Dean loved more than anything, in order to protect half the planet is giving up nor the "easy" way out especially when no one else had a better plan. And I love Castiel so much and I totally ship Destiel but FFS that beating was disgusting and I hate to think it actually had any affect on Dean at all much less should be seen as a way to bring Dean back. I hate when my fellow Destiel shippers ever use that for shipping reasons.

Gods, I hate that episode so much. I think I hate it as much as Swan Song LOL

IA that Dean wasn't being suicidal-only practical, in his mind. So many humans had already died, by this time; and to him, all that bloodshed was on his hands for not allowing Michael in to end the threat that Lucifer posed-whether he possessed Sam or not, at that point. And 99 Problems brought that home to him in a way that nothing else could. He changed his mind in PONR, but Sam's way was only proved to be the "better" way because the writers wanted it to be the better way, IMO-and I will never forgive them for that nonsense. Never.

And it did a complete disservice to all that Jensen had poured into his character up to that point, IMO. But that's something that's better left to the Bitterness Thread, I suppose.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Myrelle

[Pondlass1]

Hashtags - lest we forget.

(Gosh, I loved this episode - those shoulders.... oh my) 

Edited January 17, 2018 by Pondlass1

[catrox14]

Huh, I saw this linked on Tumblr. I swore I'd read every Jensen/Dean article about s10 that wa sout there. This seems new to me but then it is 3 years later LOL

He really did want Demon Dean to last longer.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/supernatural-jensen-ackles-season-10-768464

Quote

I didn't want to play Dean as this defiant, bratty son or something like that. I wanted him to be like, "Screw you. Screw you and everything you want me to do. I'm going to do what I want to do because you know what? I don't care." To me, that was even more crazy in my mind, so that's what we went with, and it was a nice lighter break from what we spent all [season nine] doing with Dean.

There were times when Dean as a demon seemed happier than we had ever seen him.

I did love Demon Dean, and I would have loved to stretch that out longer, but to be honest, we don't know that he's entirely not a demon anymore. I think that question mark is still somewhere hanging out there. [But] when he came out of Purgatory, and he's like, "This is where I belong: driving down crazy street with my brother by my side," I think those are the moments that he is the happiest. Sure, it's a long road, and he knows there's going to be all kinds of evil that he's going to be up against, but that's where he thrives, and that's where he belongs, and he knows that now.

I'm still so bitter about Demon Dean. And I will forever believe now that I was always right all along that Dean was still partly a demon and when his eyes flashed black in Inside Man that was legit. I will not be moved from my head canon. Don't test meLOL

[gonzosgirrl]

Tomorrow is Dean's birthday. I realized that if the show is renewed and remains on Thursdays, next season there will be an episode airing on Dean's 40th. I'm gonna be hella disappointed if the show doesn't acknowledge it somehow.

[DeeDee79]

15 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Tomorrow is Dean's birthday. I realized that if the show is renewed and remains on Thursdays, next season there will be an episode airing on Dean's 40th. I'm gonna be hella disappointed if the show doesn't acknowledge it somehow.

Hey, I'll turn 40 a few days before Dean! It would be a great opportunity for a lighthearted episode to celebrate Dean.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

Hey, I'll turn 40 a few days before Dean! It would be a great opportunity for a lighthearted episode to celebrate Dean.

And I'm thinking they would totally kill Dean off on his 40th you know for the irony

[DeeDee79]

Just now, catrox14 said:

And I'm thinking they would totally kill Dean off on his 40th you know for the irony

Nooo!!!! I'd prefer an episode where he's shown appreciation beyond just buying him pie and taking him to a strip club :)

[catrox14]

Just now, DeeDee79 said:

Nooo!!!! I'd prefer an episode where he's shown appreciation beyond just buying him pie and taking him to a strip club :)

And then kill him at 11:59. I swear I think Dabb would do that.  And then leave it as a cliffhanger. I'm not saying I want this. I'm just saying I wouldn't put it past them to do it.

Edited January 24, 2018 by catrox14

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And then kill him at 11:59. I swear I think Dabb would do that.  And then leave it as a cliffhanger. I'm not saying I want this. I'm just saying I wouldn't put it past them to do it.

Don't say such things!

 

[catrox14]

Just now, DeeDee79 said:

Don't say such things!

 

I think it's more like I'm fully preparing myself for it LOL Sorry

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I think it's more like I'm fully preparing myself for it LOL Sorry

Dammit...I partly agree with you...

[gonzosgirrl]

You know I've been saying for a long time that Dabb is writing towards Dean's demise, but if he did it on his birthday? I might seriously have to hunt the bastard down!

[DeeDee79]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

You know I've been saying for a long time that Dabb is writing towards Dean's demise, but if he did it on his birthday? I might seriously have to hunt the bastard down!

I’ll come along if you need a getaway car!

[catrox14]

Just now, DeeDee79 said:

I’ll come along if you need a getaway car!

I'll come!

[DeeDee79]

Cool! I’ll be the driver and you can be the lookout ?

[Res]

59 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Cool! I’ll be the driver and you can be the lookout ?

I'll make it look like an accident. ;-)

[Myrelle]

Happy 39th Birthday to The Man!

Even after all these years, we're still havin' fun and you're still The One to me, Dean. ;-)

[ILoveReading]

Happy Birthday to the best fictional character ever.  There never will be another like him for me. 

Happy Birthday Dean Winchester.

I miss Scarlett's Dean stuff so much.

[Pondlass1]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I miss Scarlett's Dean stuff so much.

Me too. She gets Dark Dean. 

Probably wrong thread for this - but I don't think in a zillion years it's Dean that will die.  If they're going to kill off a brother - it'll be Sam.  Jared makes no bones about missing his family and becoming weary of the grind of churning out 23 episodes a season.  He could negotiate for Sam to die in episode 300.  Jensen could continue on for a couple more seasons as Dean without Sam.  It would throw a whole new light on the series - almost a brand new show.  Maybe Dean even swaps Baby for a Harley because he misses his sidekick ..... maybe he hunts more closely with Castiel (not in a Destiel way... but as best friends).

Jared wants out.  I don't think he's hiding the fact.

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Me too. She gets Dark Dean. 

Probably wrong thread for this - but I don't think in a zillion years it's Dean that will die.  If they're going to kill off a brother - it'll be Sam.  Jared makes no bones about missing his family and becoming weary of the grind of churning out 23 episodes a season.  He could negotiate for Sam to die in episode 300.  Jensen could continue on for a couple more seasons as Dean without Sam.  It would throw a whole new light on the series - almost a brand new show.  Maybe Dean even swaps Baby for a Harley because he misses his sidekick ..... maybe he hunts more closely with Castiel (not in a Destiel way... but as best friends).

Jared wants out.  I don't think he's hiding the fact.

I'll go on record here, there and everywhere. There is no way Jensen continues SPN without Jared. No way, no how.

[Pondlass1]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

No way, no how.

Yeah you're probably right.  Besties and all that.  :)

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, Pondlass1 said:

Yeah you're probably right.  Besties and all that.  :)

LOL, yeah, except I don't necessarily believe it would work in the opposite direction. ;)

ETA: I do think you're right about Jared wanting out though. And he did say that both he and Jensen have now agreed on how they want it to end, but they'd have to convince TPTB of it. Given that, and how many times recently he's said he thinks it has to end with the brothers dying (otherwise they'd be hunting, and if they're hunting, he wants to see it), I won't be surprised if it ends with both of them dead. But I still stand by my gut-feeling that Dean's days are numbered.

Edited January 24, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

Happy Birthday to my Deanie beanie.

The greatest fictional character ever created. 

[ILoveReading]

Since its Dean's birthday, I figure this would be a great time to start a Dean discussion.

We (general we) all know that Jensen can do so much with a simple line of dialogue, like "it tastes like a lizard."   But he's also capable of speaking a thousand words without uttering one.  What are your top five favorite non verbal Dean moments.

Mine are...

1. Dean practicing smiling at the end of Adventures in Babysitting.  This was just stellar.   Every smile was different, but none of them ever reached his eyes.  Those were some of the saddest smiles I've ever seen.  You could clearly see Dean's struggle to even pretend to smile.  Then when he settled on one and tried to maintain it, you could definitely tell it was a mask and it was taking every ounce of strength to keep it in place.  Kudos Jensen.  Dean, continues to just break my heart over and over.

2. I'm kind of cheating with this one, because its not technically non-verbal but Jensen's entire performance in the Purge.  Because I've always thought this was a textbook example of acting against the script, and finding what's not on the page.  I felt like Dean's emotions were an entire separate D storyline that Jensen tapped into and managed to tell.  Right from the opening shot with the drinking, and being up all night, I could feel the exhaustion coming off Dean in waves.   I could see the effort Dean was putting in to try and pretend he was all right but not quite getting there.   Dean was trying to bury those emotions but they were seeping through despite those efforts.  Then when he was trying to pretend to be excited about being a trainer that control slipped  and lead to the outburst.  Him being defensive at the conversation in the end and trying to protect himself.  The episode itself was mediocre but for me Jensen's unspoken performance in this one was top notch and I can't gush about it enough. 

3. In Reichenbach when Crowley tried to demand Demon Dean so something.  Jensen's whole demeanor just changed.  You could see the fun, playful demon leaf and get a glimpse of the darkness lurking just under the surface.   Its like everything got darker in that moment.  Chilling. 

4. I'm cheating again and listing 2 since these are small moment.  It really is blink and you'll miss it.  It's from Faith.  Just when Dean checks out of the hospital and goes back to the motel.   He comes in the room and leans on the dresser.  Sam goes to close the door behind him.  When Sam turns his back, Dean's face scrunches up like he's in pain his hand starts toward his chest.  When Sam turns back the pained expression is suddenly dropped.  Like Dean slammed his mask back into place like he was trying to protect Sam. 

4b- I can't remember if this one was in Nightmare or Shadow (I think Nightmare) but Sam went to cross the the street and see Dean's hand come up and stop him from stepping out into traffic.  Dean is such a mother hen.   These two examples really just show how much effort Jensen puts into even the little things.

5.  From Everyone Loves a Clown when Dean beat the Impala.  It was both a scary and sad moment all at the same time.  The anger at his dad for putting that burden on his shoulders, and the sadness at losing his dad were both there were just pouring out of Dean with every swing.   Since the Impala is also a metaphor for Dean, I have always felt that he was also taking out his guilt on himself over his dad being dead and him being alive.  Then when he dropped the crowbar, his expression was just heartbreaking.  Despite pounding the Impala the anger, guilt and sadness were still there.  That little chin wibble at at  end where it looks like he's trying not cry still gets to me everytime. 

I also need to give an honorable mention to the subtle difference in The End Dean and our Dean, his expression after Sam said he wouldn't save him, and moment where he was wrapping Cas's body in the curtain.  (I saw a clip with the music edited out and you could hear Dean breathing, and it really felt like you were intruding on a really private moment.  I was almost uncomfortable watching it. ). 

I also need to give a shout out to Dean over the course of the entire series. The way Jensen carries himself when in character I see all of his experiences, the highs, lows and in between written all over him.   You can see just how wary and tired Dean is right now.  His reactions and emotions are exactly what you'd expect from someone whose been through what Dean has.  This is why when SPN does end, as much as I'd like to see Jensen in a movie, Id rather see him stay with TV since I think his strength is those little moments and character building.   Not impossible but much harder if your playing a character in a movie for 2 hours every two years.

Kudos Jensen.  You deserve all the awards.

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

LOL, yeah, except I don't necessarily believe it would work in the opposite direction. ;)

ETA: I do think you're right about Jared wanting out though. And he did say that both he and Jensen have now agreed on how they want it to end, but they'd have to convince TPTB of it. Given that, and how many times recently he's said he thinks it has to end with the brothers dying (otherwise they'd be hunting, and if they're hunting, he wants to see it), I won't be surprised if it ends with both of them dead. But I still stand by my gut-feeling that Dean's days are numbered.

Replying in the Superacting thread :) 

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Since its Dean's birthday, I figure this would be a great time to start a Dean discussion.

We (general we) all know that Jensen can do so much with a simple line of dialogue, like "it tastes like a lizard."   But he's also capable of speaking a thousand words without uttering one.  What are your top five favorite non verbal Dean moments.

 

I'll have to consider this a while, but the first thing that comes to mind is Dean being stabbed by Metatron in 9x23. The gasp/grunt and look of shock on his face, the sadness in his eyes as he realizes Sam is there and witnessed it. I can see it just by closing my eyes and I'll never forget it.