Dean Winchester: aka Squirrel

[Pete Martell]

Just wanted to go ahead and create this. I always have ideas for title threads, but some aren't great, and I'd be interested in hearing other ideas. The mod said they'd add the title after a decision is made.

Edited February 15, 2017 by SilverStormm
Title edit

[SueB]

Thanks Pete.  I do love talking about the characters.  I'll offer up one subtitle:

- Worthy

- Sexy Squirrel

Edited April 2, 2014 by SueB

[catrox14]

--Too Hot for Heaven or Hell

--Not Moose

Edited April 2, 2014 by catrox14

[Mia-667]

Can we keep the one from TWoP, please? I'm nostalgic.

[NoWillToResist]

I would be fine to pull over the "hotter than hell...bitch" title but I could EASILY be swayed towards "Not Moose" because that shit still makes me laugh. :)

Ah, Dean. Addicted to hugs and his brother. Snappy dresser, LARP-lover and a bit of a dork overall. Too-loyal heart and ZERO self-esteem. And so, so, so pretty. *sigh*

Bonus points for having an actual fucking storyline this season though! Better late than never, eh?

[oliverwendell]

Oh, I vote for Not Moose!  That line was so funny!  And so true.  Dean is, most emphatically, Not Sam.

[2Old2BAFangirl]

I do like the title from TWoP but I'm up for any of the other suggestions too.

I would also like to make it mandatory to have Dean rack pool balls with his freakin' arms Every. Single. Episode. 

Not because I'm shallow and think that Dean racking the pool balls with his arms was one of the hottest things I've ever seen him do - it's because I'm studying that particular technique to improve my pool ball racking skills.  I mean, pool ball racking skills are very important. 

[catrox14]

 

ot because I'm shallow and think that Dean racking the pool balls with his arms was one of the hottest things I've ever seen him do - it's because I'm studying that particular technique to improve my pool ball racking skills.  I mean, pool ball racking skills are very important.

I feel like I objectify Dean far too much, but yes, yes to all this about hot pool ball rackage.  I also find his beer bottle handling and sipping techniques  absurdly hot. 

[NoWillToResist]

 

I feel like I objectify Dean far too much, but yes, yes to all this about hot pool ball rackage.  I also find his beer bottle handling and sipping techniques  absurdly hot.

I feel like I should take this opportunity to thank Misha for his directorial efforts what with his nearly obsessive close ups on Jensen's face, hands, eyes, etc...

I, for one, was certainly not complaining. :) 

[7kstar]

 

I feel like I should take this opportunity to thank Misha for his directorial efforts what with his nearly obsessive close ups on Jensen's face, hands, eyes, etc...

Yes, Misha knows what is important!  I have had to watch the pool scene and the technique to rack the balls because perhaps it will improve my luck.  I certainly don't have Dean's skill, but I can sometimes sync the ball, but I'm afraid if Dean was around my game would go drastically downhill.  I mean how could I avoid staring...

I honestly don't understand how all the demons can remained focused when he is in the room???

[catrox14]

Man, it's so NICE to see Dean doing something active and proactive for a change!.  And man after tonight's episode, he is becoming really scary.  I LOVE IT!

[Mcolleague]

There is a postcards fan campaign here for Dean's mytharc to not be dropped, if anyone is interested in sending a message. The postcards are paid for, and they are just looking for messages from the fans. Please send a line if you are so inclined. :)  

[catrox14]

This is a fantastic snapshot of Dean on Tumblr. All seasons spoilers. And it reminds me of just how talented Jensen is.

http://texasbowlegs.tumblr.com/post/99346369500/dean-winchester-variations-insp

[SueB]

Reflecting on Dean in Black:
 

- Dahmn.  "You're the right kind of sinner, to release my inner fantasy." -- Pat Benatar, speaking for a significant portion of the Supernatural fandom.

For ANYONE who remotely has a bad-boy kink, Demon!Dean delivered.  Between the long hair, the doofus dancing, the pantless moment, and action sequences... it was a good night for the pretty. Note: continuity error Mr. Editor -- when Dean went into his drunkfest, they had him wearing two different shirts.  I think the director shot him partying down after "I'm Too Sexy" as well as after "Imaginary Lover" and the editor used both clips for the uncontrolled-party montage. 

- HIS FACE. Jensen did an outstanding job of having a deadly cold look in his eyes during multiple scenes.  The final shot post abandoning Sammy, the look on his face as he is talking with Crowley about being duped, and his COLD conversation w/ Ann Marie.  I think his emotions are all over the map.  Sometimes he IS just a party animal. Other moments he looks like he's about to murder someone for breathing.

- Jensen said Dean just doesn't care. On the one hand I get that -- he's free at last and the most HONEST moment of the night was when he told Crowley "Pass." on ruling Hell at Crowley's side (which sounds kinda naughty if you think like Crowley).  Dean does NOT want to take up any responsibility and is running as fast and far away from that as he can.  That includes running away from Sammy IMO.  So...he actually kinda DOES care. He cares about protecting his "don't give a shit" lifestyle.  He left the bar and got back on the road to avoid Sam.  The other "don't care" lie (IMO) is that he's 'good'..as in happy.  Because the 'happy' is not reaching his eyes -- not remotely.    Yes he's enjoying the hedonism but that lasts only as long as the music is playing, or the sex is in-progress, or the alcohol is still buzzing in his system.  He also is releasing his anger in the kills/violence.  But he's not gleeful in the violence. He enjoys the release but he's AWARE of that. There's just too much self-awareness to completely claim "don't give a shit."  His conversation w/ Ann Marie about 'sleeping with every skank' was one part asshole, one part lashing out, and one part at least reminiscent of self-loathing. In short -- it's complicated.  And I thought Jensen did a good job of selling that.  Dean is not just partying it up. He's building up to a meltdown.  I sense he, like Sammy, could easily snap into violence at any moment.

 

At the end of the day, the shocking abandonment of Sam was not all that shocking.  He doesn't want to pick up responsibility. He doesn't want to see Sam. He's running.  I don't think he actually doesn't care if Sam dies.  He'd kill Sam himself (as a threat) if he had no love for Sam. But he either thinks Sam will get out of the situation on his own or he'll let events play out and is unwilling to intervene.  And then he'll kill Cole -- no matter what.  Just because Cole pisses him off. 

[catrox14]

Yes! Thread name changed!

[catrox14]

This might be the best character study of Dean Winchester on Tumblr I've ever seen. I'm not gonna lie.  I teared up.  Really excellent work.

 

http://itsjustjensen.tumblr.com/post/99784862676/this-is-the-story-of-a-boy-who-watched-his-mother

 

 

And I would also add that it shows just how fantastic an actor Jensen is. I loved seeing all the variations of Dean in every one of those snippets. How Jensen has kept Dean so consistent but can change him enough to see how Dean has changed. I swear,posts like this just remind me of how ludicrous it is that Jensen has never been nominated for an Emmy or Golden Globe or SAG or whatever.

Edited October 12, 2014 by catrox14

[7kstar]

It's the moments like this that keeps me watching the show.  I'm afraid Jensen will never get recognized as long as he is on supernatural because it is the equivalent to being on soap opera...and never gets awards due to the misconception that it doesn't require good acting chops.

 

Jensen is an amazing actor and he is only getting better in my opinion.  Also when you look at the story's potential in Supernatural, it has such a deep rich history which only helps an actor to get better.  I hope once Supernatural ends we get to watch him in something else and that he doesn't go behind the scenes...only time will tell.

[Demented Daisy]

Dean is, most emphatically, Not Sam.

 

 

After the discussion in the Castiel thread, just wanted to say that I'm unhappy with the thread name here.  Dean is so much more than Not Sam.  But mileage varies, of course.

[catrox14]

Oh I agree he's not Sam. I was just going for the humor of it. We all know that Dean Winchester supercedes any one characterization and that we can call him, Dean, shapeshifter!Dean, future!Dean, leviathan!Dean, purgatory!Dean, MoC!Dean and now demon!Dean  and not!Moose will still be funny.

 

There is nothing that compares to Dean Winchester for me. But if you guys really hate it then I guess we'll have to change Moose too. I just think it's funny.  YMMV

[DittyDotDot]

I always liked Demian's nickname for Dean--"Dashing El Deano"--but I'm indifferent to thread titles.

 

Maybe we should change it to "Squirrel" so he has a name that's his own.

[catrox14]

Dean Winchester: Yippee Kai-yea Mother-f....

Edited October 19, 2014 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

I'm not saying the thread name needs to change, I'm just saying I'm not fond of it.  *shrug*  If I'm the only one with a problem, then I can live with that.  :-)  I was always fond of how Dean described himself:

 

Dean Winchester:  A GED and a Give 'em Hell Attitude 

[DittyDotDot]

I like that one DD. It's hard for me to think of a nickname for Dean because...well...he's just Dean. But a GED and a Give 'em Hell Attitude does fit quite nicely.

[catrox14]

Gets my vote.

Edited October 19, 2014 by catrox14

[7kstar]

 

Dean Winchester:  A GED and a Give 'em Hell Attitude

Sounds like a good Name and I get the humor of the original title, but if we hate Crowley do we really want Crowley to name Dean's thread?  Just saying....

 

But I'm fine with either one.  :)

[SueB]

We could go back to 'Hotter Than Hell'

[catrox14]

Hotter than Hell... Even more meaning since he became a demon.

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Actors" thread:

I`m talking storylines as in actually something more than parts of a one-off episode. That means vision!Sam, demon-blood-Sam, Soulless!Sam, Lucifer!hallucination!Sam, Trial1Sam and Gadreel!Sam all qualify, covering each at least half a Season if not a full one or more than that.

 

 As for Dean, I guess I can count the Mark of Cain as one but Demon!Dean with only three episodes also doesn`!qualify.

 

Dean had more than that. In a previous post (in the "Actors" thread) you mentioned that with the "human" characters you liked to see storylines that were "larger than life "unrealistic" plots and not deal with mundane, human problems." And Dean has had plenty of those that stretched over more than half a season. Season three was about his deal - which was supernatural in nature and ended with him going to hell, which was again supernatural and not the usual plotline. There was also all of season 4 where Dean was associated with angels - Sam didn't even see an angel until a third of the way through the season - and Dean was the Righteous Man. This stretched into season 5 with Zachariah actively pursuing Dean ("The End" was part of that plotline) . Just because Adam came along does not entirely wipe out the storyline or the supernatural nature of it. Zachariah was a part of that plot and Dean killed him, so there was closure there. If Sam's trial plotline counts where that didn't go anywhere either and Sam didn't finish the trials, then in my opinion Dean's season 4 through 5 being resurrected and the Righteous Man plotline also counts. Same with Sam's hallucinations which were fixed by Castiel and nothing that Sam did.

 

There was also season 7 where Dean was the driving force behind hunting down and killing Dick Roman. Frank was associated mainly with Dean, and it spanned over multiple episodes as Dean gathered the information and ultimately killed Dick Roman using "unrealistic" means - again not a usual plotline and definitely supernatural in nature - which resulted in him going to purgatory - which was another supernatural non-mundane plotline which spanned about half a season, since Castiel returning from purgatory was tied to that plotline as was all the stuff with Benny. Dean had to use supernatural meas to return to earth.

 

In a way maybe even Dean and Sam's soul counts as a small Dean plotline also, because Dean actively dealt with soulless Sam, he pursued the mystery of what was wrong with Sam, and Dean used supernatural means to solve the problem and cause Sam's soul to be saved and brought back.

 

You could even argue ghost Bobby if you wanted, It was more than half a season, was tied to Dean's Dick Roman revenge plot, and the flask was carried around by Dean. It was supernatural in nature and Dean was the one who mainly felt the effects from it.

 

And now we have the mark of Cain plot that you mentioned which is still ongoing. I consider Demon Dean to be part of that overall arc, because Demon Dean came about because of the mark. And Dean may still have some powers based on the mark. As a demon he had healing powers. The mark itself seemed to give him at least some telekinetic powers - and Dean may still have those - and apparently some extra strength and the ability to resist some demon attack.

Edited October 28, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

 

There was also all of season 4 where Dean was associated with angels - Sam didn't even see an angel until a third of the way through the season - and Dean was the Righteous Man. This stretched into season 5 with Zachariah actively pursuing Dean ("The End" was part of that plotline) . Just because Adam came along does not entirely wipe out the storyline or the supernatural nature of it.

 

With how much insult to injury there was, it comes pretty close. But okay, I will count it.

 

The Leviathans, however, I don`t. In fact, I`d say the Leviathan storyline was weirdly about the Leviathans and while Dean and Sam were randomely video-bombed into it, it was by no means the storyline of either of them or them both. The "largest" mytharc of the Season was maybe Ghost!Bobby - and that I consider a Bobby-storyline. If Dean or others were supporting in it is another matter.

 

Same goes for Soulless!Sam. That is a bonafide Sam-plot. Dean sidekicked in it but that makes it more an "insult to injury" anti-storyline for Dean. Just like the Trials.

 

Sidekick duty in another characters storyline is not what I look for - at this point, it is what I hate. And what makes me so terribly bitter because they can come up with stories for characters who joined the show years into its run and bam, they get something I would have killed for for Dean over years and years of nothing.  

 

I honestly don`t get it. If he had always been a character like Xander Harris on Buffy, the sidekick, mostly comic relief with an occasional moment to shine but overall completely unimportant and with just Buffy as the declared Chosen One, then yes I would understand it. With the set-up the show had, I never ever expected the character to mean something beyond sidekick.

 

But that`s IMO not how the Dean-character overall was introduced. Going by the Buffy parallel, he was a mixture of lots of characters from that, including Buffy herself. Or, the Star Wars analogy the show went with to establish the premise: sure, Han was the sidekick as well and it was only feasible like this because it was just three feature films. Over the course of a show, they would have needed to broaden his role or write him out. Which is what I think happened with Dean. They realized that keeping him the pure sidekick didn`t work. Or even more so, Jensen was too strong an actor to meekly make that work.

 

Dean would in my eyes be strong enough as a character to carry his own narrative. If he had been part of a larger ensemble, they might have spun him off even. But with just a two-lead show, that would have been ludicrous. But to not really broaden the narrative and work the character to the full potential was for me equally as ludicrous.

 

Season 4 when he was brought back from Hell and supposedly had a real Chosen One storyline was in my opinion the first (and only) time the show excelled and reached its potential. Some stuff before it was good, most stuff after it was atrocious but I`ve never been as interested in a storyline in the show as back then. Not before and not since.  

[SueB]

Aeryn13, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think that what is important and who gets better served is far too complicated by personal bias and preference.

[AwesomO4000]

The Leviathans, however, I don`t. In fact, I`d say the Leviathan storyline was weirdly about the Leviathans and while Dean and Sam were randomely video-bombed into it, it was by no means the storyline of either of them or them both. The "largest" mytharc of the Season was maybe Ghost!Bobby - and that I consider a Bobby-storyline.

 

I almost would agree with you, but similar to the YED storyline (see below),* Bobby being killed - and I'll give you that Ghost Bobby was mainly about Bobby, although Dean was more involved there than Sam (due to the flask) -  kicked Dean into revenge mode. Just like John was killed, Bobby was killed, and this time, Dean went straight for the "I'm going to be the one who kills you" to Dick Roman personally ("We're coming for you, and not just to hurt you – to kill you. You understand me?"). So for me that was very personal and very much a Dean plotline. This time when his father figure was killed, he immediately made it his mission to kill the thing that did it, and unlike in season 1 and 2, there was no question about it and no hesitating. No "if it means losing us, I don't care if we ever find this thing." Dean was changed. He decided that instead of crumpling like he threatened to do in "Hello Cruel World" if Bobby died, he was going to make it his mission to kill Dick Roman and that was what he did. Even when it affected his health, Dean took an almost John level of determination towards that goal.

 

Ghost Bobby made it difficult by being around and making Dean depressed, but Dean still worked for it through many episodes with Dean contacting Frank, even doing research behind Sam's back, and hiding it. There was too much there for me for that to just be a "Leviathan" plotline. It was even shown that Sam was not really into it at first. He tried to discourage Dean, because he thought it was affecting Dean's mental health and tried to distract Dean with the "mundane" hunts. They'd switched roles. Sam was the "saving people, hunting things" proponent while Dean wanted revenge, had proclaimed it, and followed through. It's why Dick Roman was much more tied with and talked to Dean than Sam, because for Dean it was very, very personal.

 

Dean may not have been tied to the Leviathans supernaturally like Sam was with the YED, but the revenge part of the storyline and the reasoning for it was similar. And in the case of Dean, Dean actually followed through and killed Dick Roman concluding the plotline just like he said he would, and even getting the hero's death for doing so. So for me, that looks like a plotline. I suppose miles vary, but on this show, for me, that's one of the more straightforward plotlines they've had. Bobby is shot/killled. In that episode, Dean swears to Dick's face that he's going to make him pay for that by killing him. Dean fights forward despite distractions (Bobby and Sam) through half a season of episodes using his own Ash equivalent (Frank) to help him do so. Dean puts together a supernatural weapon which takes a few steps and a couple of episodes to do and mostly on his own (Sam isn't even in the room) exacts his revenge and is sent to purgatory - a supernatural occurrence - as a consequence. It's maybe not the most flashy plotline - although the conclusion was pretty flashy, both literally and figuratively - but it was for me an active plotline, and better than some others they've had on the show. At least Dean succeeded which is more than some characters get on this show.

 

* And I somehow forgot to mention that too. Even though Sam was YED's "favorite" (lucky Sam, and mostly by extension from Mary as we found out later), Dean was the one who killed him - "that was for our Mom" - the family "mission" for forever, and so Dean was a major part of that storyline, too. Which became even more important when it was shown in "In the Beginning" that the angels - through Castiel - sent Dean back in time to influence history, and that Dean had inadvertently been part of the reason the family was targeted in the first place. This made Dean of major importance to that storyline and his "I'm going to be the one who kills you, you son of a bitch" and therefore Dean's killing of YED of major importance. It was weird that the kill came first, and the "reason" after (but at the same time in a way creative), but Dean nonetheless ended up being extremely important to that storyline - and he was so via extraordinary supernatural means that were solely to do with him. And could theoretically give a whole new meaning to the Righteous Man being the one to "start it." Ouch for Dean. And those sneaky angel bastards.

 

So I should've added one more Dean plotline to that list. For me, Dean was very much involved in the YED plotline, and the addition of the time travel and history influence in "In the Beginning" makes his role and ultimate killing of YED with John even more important in my opinion.

 

And P.S. - I don't look at Dean not being the one to "finishing it" as a bad thing. I generally think Dean had a bigger role in "Swan Song" than most, and I think the fact that Dean didn't "finish it" the way that the angels wanted would make Dean very pleased myself. Screw them (the angels). It's bad enough they made Dean start it. I'm glad he "finished it" - or not - on his own terms.

Edited October 28, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

 

Dean may not have been tied to the Leviathans supernaturally like Sam was with the YED

 

Makes a lot of difference. The supernatural tie meant that Sam and only Sam and noone but Sam had the special role at the center of that story. Everyone could have been his travel companion. The reverse isn`t even remotely true for Dean and the Leviathans. Where everyone and their dog could have gone after them.

 

Same with killing Dick Roman, who did it was happenstance. Meanwhile for Lucifer, again, everyone and their dog pointed out how Sam was "the man". I`ll never see that as equal, never.

 

As for Dean potentially "starting" it in the past, that would be even more horrifying. Because he gets nothing but the blame part but none of the redemption, Then again, it was the same thing with breaking the first seal - apparently the blame that falls on him for "starting" it but he is completely taken out of finishing it. However, as you say, this has been a very disputed theme. Personally, I`ll never believe Dean had any kind of role in Suck Song, I`ll never stop hating it for that very reason and I`ll never forgive that lousy storytelling.   

 

If at least they would make it up even a little by giving the character his due now but heck, not even crumbs from the table.

[AwesomO4000]

Makes a lot of difference. The supernatural tie meant that Sam and only Sam and noone but Sam had the special role at the center of that story.

 

Not really, because Jake fulfilled part of the role just fine - likely better, because he was Superman strong and so moving the iron railroad bars was easy for him -  and based on what was said, Jake likely would've been Lucifer's meatsuit and the leader of Azazel's army if Sam had stayed dead. Sam was "special" only because he was the last one standing in the end and only that because he coldly killed Jake. YED's demon blood made Sam that way. He wasn't born that way. He was from a "special" bloodline, but so is Dean and apparently a bunch of other people.

 

And I was going off of your "human characters, but with supernatural and/or unbelievable elements" (paraphrase) criteria, so with that description, I thought the Leviathan storyline qualified, especially considering the purgatory ending to it. I didn't realize that there was another criteria necessary.

 

As for Dean potentially "starting" it in the past, that would be even more horrifying. Because he gets nothing but the blame part but none of the redemption, Then again, it was the same thing with breaking the first seal - apparently the blame that falls on him for "starting" it but he is completely taken out of finishing it.

 

I would blame that on the angels - they are the ones who sent Dean back in time. And as for Dean being blamed for starting the apocalypse, that hasn't been mentioned since season 4 or early season 5 at the latest. Almost everyone (and it's a long list), including Dean * and Sam himself, has been blaming Sam for starting the apocalypse since early season 5, and it's brought up in reference to Sam over and over again. So yes, I'm glad Sam got to have a big part in finishing it and that he at least got to succeed in something since until recently, it was his only success. And almost always he's the one blamed for it by everyone on the show.

 

And the difference is that Dean wasn't aware what he was doing would affect anyone but himself when he broke the first seal. Sam, however, was aware that something bad would happen as a result of what he was doing. He didn't know that he would break the final seal, but he was aware that not all would be good, and he chose to do it anyway, because he thought the ends justified the means. The show has told us over the last 5 seasons that it was Sam and his choices that was the main factor in starting the apocalypse. I think it's been pretty clear on that, and there has been no mention of Dean's inadvertent role since. Sam's active choices were placed much more in the forefront and have stayed there.

 

In my opinion, the show had absolved Dean of any meaningful involvement a long time ago as it's never been mentioned again by anyone but Dean. It's been all on Sam for a long while now.

 

* That was well inferred in the awful "Fallen Idols."

 

If at least they would make it up even a little by giving the character his due now but heck, not even crumbs from the table.

 

Miles vary there, since I think Dean gets his due and is showcased as a hero all the time on this show and doing things that only Dean - with ties to Death (important for getting everything else back in purgatory and for saving Sam's soul which no one else would have done or been able to do) and his hunting ability and know-how (killing YED, killing Eve, and being able to survive purgatory for a year) - can do.

 

And now there's the mark of Cain which made Dean the only one able to kill Abaddon, and he was given the mark only because Cain found Dean worthy of that distinction. No one else anywhere can claim that. That's more than crumbs in my book.

 

So we'll have to agree to disagree here.

Edited October 28, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

Yup, miles vary greately on this point. 

[catrox14]

This is the Dean thread but I have to preface my comments with Sam stuff first.

 

To me the show as always been about Sam Winchester. It's never changed not even now.  Dean has always been written as the support to Sam even as his SL tangential to Sam came and went.  I think it's just the sheer talent and charisma of Ackles that IMO by season 4 the show could no longer ignore because he was giving Dean life beyond what was written in the first 3 seasons.

 

Sam Winchester's story fueled the entirety of the first 5 seasons.  

 

Sam wanted revenge for Jessica's death more than he wanted to find Mom's killer or to find Dad which is why Dean even showed up to find him in college. Even if you never had Dean in the show, Sam would have sought vengeance for Jessica regardless because Jessica was going to die either way. 

 

If you killed Dean off in Faith or beginning of s2, Sam would still have the visions. Sam would have still been in the Psychic Kids Hunger Games. Sam would have had every action that propelled his story. The only difference is whether Sam dies at the end of s2 or is somehow saved by John without Dean being there.

 

s3 was the aftermath of Dean's decision to save Sam but it was yet again always about how Dean going to Hell would affect Sam's life as we saw in Mystery Spot.  Essentially Dean's story in S3 was not really about Dean at all IMO.

 

If you kill off Dean at the end of s3 or even leave him in Hell as a dangling storyline heading into s4 Sam SL would still exist. Even with Dean being saved from Hell by an angel we don't really learn anything about what happened to Dean in Hell or how it really affected him until 10 episodes into the season and that was a chat by the car for 10 minutes.  From the moment Dean was resurrected the focus went from Dean and Castiel and Lucifer rising to what happened to Sam.  It was about what Dean's decision did to Sam and what extreme measures Sam took to find Dean. It became about Sam wanting vengeance by killing Lilith. The only time s4 was about Dean after "In the Beginning" was  'On the Head of a Pin" when he was dubbed the Righteous Man but even that didn't matter in the end. I personally don't consider a few car conversations and a confession at the end of Heaven and Hell adequate examination of Dean's time in Hell. It's kind of criminal how much it's been ignored in the show.( And even NOW as he became a demon it's not been addressed. Honest to gods if they don't talk about Dean's time in Hell this season...well that might be the last straw for me).

 

And s5. Well that was 100% about Sam Winchester saving the world, because his brother saved him. Sure it's a character beat for Dean but it's not a storyline IMO.It was about Sam being Lucifer's vessel. I was hopeful we would see Dean have a meaningful arc of his own that was tied to Sam but not about Sam.  But nope, in the end, Dean's story was always about protecting Sam so that Sam could save the world even after teasing us for 18 frakking episodes that Dean was Michael's Vessel. I know the renewal changed the story because both were supposed to go into the pit but that's not what we ended up with. 

 

Everything after s6 before Purgatory was again, all about Sam. Dean being with Lisa was because of a promise to Sam. Soulless Sam and Hallucination Sam and Castiel's war in heaven were the focus of s6. s7 was weird because whilst I liked it, it ever felt like it was about either brother. Dean had a mission to kill Dick Roman because of Bobby. To me s7 was really about Bobby and saying good bye to him .

 

And then we get to s8.  And FINALLY Dean has a SL. Dean has the action. Dean is DOING THINGS that do not involve Sam at all.  Dean has been forced to change and cope and Sam wasn't the first thing in his mind for once. Dean stayed in Purgatory for a year just to find Cas. Dean made a new controversial friend that was completely separate from Sam.  Sam cared fuck all about Dean in s8 and Sam wanted his freedom.  Dean had an actual arc that was him being action man, that his time in Purgatory made him ripe for doing the trials and that he would close the gates of Hell and Sam was the helper. But sadly, for whatever reasons Sam ends up with the trials and it's right back to Dean supporting Sam. That one really pissed me off even more that s5.

 

And then s9. Dean actually has a SL of his very own. It's propelled by his decision to save Sam but he is the only one with the Mark. The only one with a special thing like Sam in s1 and s2. It's refreshing and new. He has a mission to make things right for his decision to save Sam and avenge Kevin's death. Dean took the Mark of Cain and it mattered. He was driving the action. It was Dean's story with Sam sort of worrying about him and then being devastated when he dies in the 9.23. 

 

But I will bet dollars to donuts, the narrative will shift to it being about how Dean being turned into a demon affected Sammy and how Sammy did terrible things (just like s4). Sure the MoC will be there but to what use? 

 

So for me there is no question that show was and is about Sam Winchester.

[AwesomO4000]

From the moment Dean was resurrected the focus went from Dean and Castiel and Lucifer rising to what happened to Sam.  It was about what Dean's decision did to Sam and what extreme measures Sam took to find Dean. It became about Sam wanting vengeance by killing Lilith. The only time s4 was about Dean after "In the Beginning" was  'On the Head of a Pin" when he was dubbed the Righteous Man but even that didn't matter in the end. I personally don't consider a few car conversations and a confession at the end of Heaven and Hell adequate examination of Dean's time in Hell. It's kind of criminal how much it's been ignored in the show.

 

I have to disagree with you on that one, because I myself never thought they adequately addressed how Sam was affected by Dean's decision during season 4. We didn't even find out about Sam's efforts to save Dean from hell until 9 episodes in. By that time we knew that the angels - who Sam wouldn't meet until 7 episodes in - had some sort of plan for Dean and were manipulating things behind the scenes. We'd seen some glimpses that Dean remembered hell (though that too I thought was not well developed). We didn't find out about Sam's blood-drinking until episode 16, and Sam's motives were all muddied up and poorly explained and barely made sense.

 

For a character who's story was supposedly in the forefront, they tried to keep too may things shrouded in mystery and ended up with a muddied up and confusing story instead. In my opinion anyway. Meanwhile I entirely understood where Dean was coming from and his frustration with both Sam's lies and the angel's manipulation. And it was never in question how Dean felt and how he was in pain with more added. On the other hand, I struggled with what it was Sam was even doing and why, never mind how he was feeling about it (which in my opinion was never adequately explained). So for me it was as if Sam had the main plot of the season, but it was happening over there somewhere or offscreen while we watched how Dean felt about it, and he had his own plot over here in the forefront that wasn't really the main plot, but we somehow knew way more about it than we did about what was going on with Sam over there, down to every detail with Alastair, and angel radio, and Uriel, and Castiel and the seals, and how Dean was supposed to stop them, but really wasn't supposed to. Sam's big plot basically took place over 5 or so episodes: "I Know What You Did...", "Chris Angel..." (unfortunately because it was crap and made almost no sense), a small piece of "On the Head..." (and for such a huge development in the supposed main arc, it was like 5 minutes in the episode that was all about something else), "Monster At the End of This Book" (which both showed some Sam POV and then at the end ... muddied it up), a small piece of "The Rapture" (which was once again all about something else), and then stuffed into "When the Levee Breaks" and "Lucifer Rising" when by that point, I pretty much disliked it and didn't care, because I didn't understand exactly how Sam got to that point and had little idea how he was feeling until 21 episodes in.

 

I agree that we didn't learn enough about Dean in hell, but at least it was explained some. We heard about what Dean did, we heard about how he felt about it, and we saw what it was doing to him. "On the Head of a Pin" was all about how Dean felt and the consequences of what happened in hell. On the other hand, with Sam's supposed "main story", we never even learned one of the most critical pieces of information that explained Sam's motives: what happened to make Sam even start drinking demon blood in the first place? How did Ruby convince him? Why did he do it? We don't know, because with they didn't even bother to give us such an important detail and motivation.

 

That was why I didn't like season 4 all that much. Similar to season 6, the main plot was happening mostly offscreen somewhere, but unlike season 6, the "surprise" wasn't, most of the episodes and the story were grim, and I hated the result.

 

So it's all fine and good to have the "main story," but if that story is mainly happening offscreen or in an episode here or there while the main emotional focus is on another character, having the main story arc really isn't all that much of a focus. So to me, Sam may have much of the main story, but the show is not all about him. The show is at least just as much about Dean and how Sam's actions and destiny affect Dean and shape and change who he (Dean) is. It's why things are often seen from Dean's point of view and we often learn things as Dean does and have more information about Dean's motives and feelings and even his plots/arcs than we do about Sam's "major" ones.

 

It's like a book about someone told in the first person point of view of another character. Who is the actual focus of that kind of story? I'd say both.

 

Miles vary, but that's the way it seems to me.

[catrox14]

I'm not trying to get into a tit for tat thing here with the brothers.

 

I'm giving my perspective on my frustrations with TPTB and how they can't seem to really commit to Dean having a complete storyline that does not get rerouted back to being about Sam or even handed over to Sam for completion.

 

That is just my viewpoint of how I see Dean.  And it makes me kind of sad that they can't commit to really giving Dean something that is only about him from beginning to end. I personally don't consider Dean angsting and worrying and supporting Sam to be a Dean SL. It's a character trait not a SL.

 

And since they have done it again with the truncation and curing of Demon!Dean in 3 freaking episodes, I just now assume any and all SL's will inevitably be about Sam lest they get too far away from the original premise set up in the first two seasons.

 

Yes Dean still has the MoC but that seems to now be involving more angsting about what Sam did to find Dean (HI s4) whilst Dean broods about what he did as a demon...which aside from killing Lester and killing other demons and wanting to be violent was sort of toothless UNTIL Dean crossed Crowley and we could see just how much of a threat Dean really was to Crowley. But nope they couldn't let that stand for a little while.  Sigh.  I'm sure Crowley will be back but now Dean won't have the same attitude about Crowley. That was a waste IMO.

Edited October 29, 2014 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

 

It's like a book about someone told in the first person point of view of another character. Who is the actual focus of that kind of story?

 

For me it`s without a doubt the one the story is about. A narrator is just that, a narrator. Is a voice-over narrating stuff in a show an important part of the story? Not for me.

 

And it`s this very notion that is so insulting to me, that apparently one character is so awesome and important, that their and only their story needs to be told. Meanwhile the other character is what, apparently so boring and unimportant that the only thing they are ever good for is cape-hodling for the other one? And how they feel about said cape-holding? I have to question the writers why they think a Mary Sue at the center of everything is so infinitely interesting and why another character is good for nothing but sidekick duties. A bigger insult doesn`t come to mind. 

 

So yeah, white-hot-rage to the notion that this needs to be all Dean ever gets and that this would make him remotely as an important part of the story as Sam. To clarify, not white-hot rage at you for looking at the show a certain way,but at the writers. 

[AwesomO4000]

For me it`s without a doubt the one the story is about. A narrator is just that, a narrator. Is a voice-over narrating stuff in a show an important part of the story? Not for me.

 

You're right about that, because my illustrative comparison was faulty. Dean isn't just a narrator here. He also has his own stories which have incredible detail and often are separate from Sam's. Even the third most important current character in the story was brought in for Dean's story and for a long time was associated only with Dean. I think it wasn't until season 7 that Sam even had a conversation alone with Castiel. There was even a punchline evolved around how exclusively Cas was associated with Dean. Castiel got his own stories later, but now Crowley is associated with Dean. Except for Ruby, this doesn't happen long term for Sam, and even Ruby only lasted two seasons.

 

The main point of my analysis above was that Sam's "main plots" sometimes happen offscreen - like Castiel in season 6 - and if we're lucky, we get one episode explaining why that's so, but generally the viewer has to fill in the blanks in terms of motivation and emotion ourselves, because it's not explained well or logically, while the secondary stories are explained in great detail complete with multiple side characters and plots.

 

So while I see your point about the main story, for me focus-wise in the series that doesn't take away from the actual focus of the series which is still on both characters (now 3 actually). If the main story was also about Dean along with the narrative focus, the detail, and the side characters, in my opinion, Sam would barely be in the story.

 

I think that's why now, even though the main arc is about Dean with the mark of Cain, we are seeing it more through Sam's point of view. The show is changing the usual format to give Dean the main storyline but is showing how it is affecting Sam and is giving Castiel a whole secondary plot that is often explained in great detail. This is what often happens with the main story on this show. As many have lamented in the episode thread, we're not finding out much about the mark of Cain. And I don't think we will except in bits and pieces until there's a big "reveal" some time down the road. That's generally how the main plot works on this show.

[Aeryn13]

 

I think that's why now, even though the main arc is about Dean with the mark of Cain, we are seeing it more through Sam's point of view. The show is changing the usual format to give Dean the main storyline but is showing how it is affecting Sam and is giving Castiel a whole secondary plot that is often explained in great detail. This is what often happens with the main story on this show. As many have lamented in the episode thread, we're not finding out much about the mark of Cain. And I don't think we will except in bits and pieces until there's a big "reveal" some time down the road. That's generally how the main plot works on this show.

 

I disagree insofar as if it was a Sam-plot, I`m nearly 100 % sure the demon-thing would have gone on for longer for example. We would have seen powers in every episode. We would still be seeing powers and physical effects now. Including the fillers. There would be at least lip service paid to how important it all was etc. We`re not getting all that because it is a Dean-plot. So the writers just don`t bother.

 

The emo-blather and how any one character "feels" about it, I couldn`t care less about. When this is what they gave Dean, how he felt about Sam and his latest supernatural condition/destiny/specialness  it didn`t make things interesting for me so not giving that to him isn`t a big deal in my eyes.

[AwesomO4000]

I disagree insofar as if it was a Sam-plot, I`m nearly 100 % sure the demon-thing would have gone on for longer for example. We would have seen powers in every episode. We would still be seeing powers and physical effects now. Including the fillers. There would be at least lip service paid to how important it all was etc. We`re not getting all that because it is a Dean-plot. So the writers just don`t bother.

 

I agree, but not for the reasons you gave. I think Sam would've remained a demon for longer, because the writers wouldn't have been as concerned if he went really dark. We saw that with season 4 Sam when he murdered the innocent nurse. I don't think they'd want to go there with Dean, so they pulled him back before things got worse.

 

Also, generally when Sam used his powers, it was shown as negative and something he should stop, and when he couldn't stop, it was shown to be a weakness in Sam, not a strength. So the idea of "powers" on this show is counter-intuitive, especially for human characters. When the characters use their powers, it isn't considered "powerful," it's considered a weakness that they resorted to it and couldn't overcome the power's influence. They were weak for giving in. Dean even overtly stated this to Sam during season 4, and Dean was shown to be 100% correct. The message was that Sam using his powers was weak, and when he was able to give them up, this was when he was emotionally strong. And this was not subtle or gray areas either. It was pretty straight-forward from what I saw. Even when Sam drank the blood again to get "powerful" to defeat Lucifer, Sam immediately made the wrong choice, arrogantly saying "yes" when he shouldn't have and Lucifer immediately defeated him  - i.e. Sam was "weak."

 

As for powers, Dean had them with the mark of Cain, and also in part as a demon. Very few demons have healing powers - I'm actually trying to remember if we've seen that before. We may not have seen the last of Dean's powers, but the usual associations I mentioned above apply... except with some exceptions for Castiel, typically on this show powers = bad or evil in some way or weak. Castiel at his most powerful took the wrong path and turned "evil." Dean told Cas that when he took that deal with Crowley to get that power, Cas did it because he was weak, and again Dean was shown to be correct. I don't think it is coincidence that usually when Castiel was at his most empathetic and "good," he was generally almost powerless and human-like.

 

So weirdly, maybe in this episode, Dean not stabbing the werewolves and having doubts was likely the writers trying to show Dean as strong. He resisted the pull of the mark of Cain wanting him to kill. Yeah it's a little weird, but I think that's actually how the writers of this show look at it,and I wouldn't be surprised if that's what this is in this episode. When Dean used his powers to kill Abbadon, for example, it was all badass and cool... until he lost control and started beating on the dead corpse. So as was typical, even there: powers = bad, and giving in to them is a weakness. There is no controlling them or using the "evil for good" - Sam tried that and failed miserably and disastrously. Castiel tried that and failed miserably and disastrously.

 

So the main reason I think Dean is shown less with powers and influenced less by supernatural powers, is because he is stronger emotionally in this area than Sam and Castiel. That he can resist them is a strength on this show, not a weakness. And it looks to me like that's just how the writers of this show see it.

Edited October 29, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

I disagree that powers are shown as an all and all negative (or even mostly) on the show. Sure, the demon blood might have been bad but there wasn`t one single scene with the hand of Ipecac that I think the show didn`t play as flashy and "look how uber-cool and badass he is". I would have killed for Dean to get a bit of that. Just as I would have killed for the character to get a lot of stuff that Sam has had freely that I find is highly covet-able.

 

Couldn`t find a single thing in reverse. I mean, I would have loved a reverse but it would just have been Dean getting the good stuff for once in my eyes.  

 

As for healing powers, all demons have them. We have seen permanent vessels of demons take major abuse and then bam, good as new afterwards. Who healed that but the demon inside?

 

 

So weirdly, maybe in this episode, Dean not stabbing the werewolves and having doubts was likely the writers trying to show Dean as strong.

 

I don`t think so at all. At best I think they didn`t care how much Dean looked suddenly like a weak loser in that scene. If it was supposed to be an avil about him freezing up because of the Mark, well, this episode showed once again how the show does anvils when it wants to: with the heaviest hand possible. That leads me to deduce that this was never supposed to be a point in the writing. It is a fanwank to explain a scene that demeaned the character.  

[catrox14]

I agree that it would be good to think that is what the writers are going for with Dean but again they don't specifically address it on screen. 

 

That's what's frustrating.  Why can't they have Dean just say something like, "yeah I'm worried what the Mark is doing to me." '

 

As much as I like the show not tell, the show is not showing enough about what the Mark is doing to Dean after the fact. And they are not talking about it either in clear terms.  So I'm left thinking

 

1) Dean is too weak from being undemon'd to fight back

2) Dean is too afraid to have some really horrible side come out again

3) Dean is not really affected by the Mark at all anymore and just isn't the same hunter now, which would be the second worst thing the show will have done to him.

4) Is Dean supposed to be suffering PTSD?

 

Just freaking tell us. A decent line of dialogue.  Man. It's aggravating.

 

Because I didn't get much from the parallels to the werewolf sisters largely because I did not give a shit about their existence.

 

Stop with the riddles and the parallels show.  Remember the two actors you have here? The competence of both of them?  Somehow I think they could actually pull off sitting there by the water talking about what Dean experienced and what he's worried about now.  And what Sam is worried about with Dean.

 

I mean Dean said very specifically in 9.23 that he didn't like what the Mark was making him into. Why not pick back up on that thread and let Dean revisit what he experienced? 

 

I don't want weeks and weeks of angst but an episode with the guys just sitting there talking by the water discussing what they are worried about with each other?Fuck yeah.  PLEASE DO THAT. 

[AwesomO4000]

As for healing powers, all demons have them. We have seen permanent vessels of demons take major abuse and then bam, good as new afterwards. Who healed that but the demon inside?

 

As far as I remember, that's only angels. The demons we saw don't heal right away except for Dean. They generally heal similar to a regular body does, and if the wound is fatal, the body dies after the demon is expelled. When Ruby was cut up by Azazel in that episode after "I Know What You Did...", she didn't heal right away. She stayed cut up when she returned to Sam and Dean. Meg carried the wounds from Crowley. Alastair had wounds when Dean tortured him as did Crowley * . The meatsuits Abaddon's demons left behind had old wound marks from fatal wounds that had healed over like a human wound would, but the bodies died as soon as the demons left. I don't remember seeing a demon heal him/herself like Dean did. That was something unique to Dean or very few demons because Dean carries the mark. Dean's body healed entirely after he was killed. The mark healed him, and when he became human again, his body stayed healed. He didn't die from lack of demon power animating the body.

 

* They only thing I can't be sure of is if being in a devil's trap potentially takes away healing ability. I'll have to pay more attention next time I take a look at those scenes to see what happened to Alastair after he got out of the devil's trap, and Crowley too.

[catrox14]

AFAIK, every other demon in the show has possessed a meatsuit. It's never been clear to me if Crowley is his own meatsuit. I'm pretty confused about that.

 

But in the case of Dean and Cain they were the only two that have had the Mark of Cain. Cain could only die from the First Blade so I assume it's the MoC plus demon juice that allowed Dean to heal. 

[AwesomO4000]

It's never been clear to me if Crowley is his own meatsuit. I'm pretty confused about that.

 

Ooh, ooh... I can help you with that. Nope: It's a meatsuit, because remember Dean and Sam went to Scotland and dug up "Crowley's" (I think his real name was Fergus McCleoud?) bones and threatened to burn them... and then there was the whole Castiel supposedly burning Crowley's bones, but they weren't.

 

So nope, it's only Cain and Dean who have their own bodies... and potentially Sam for a minute if he turned into a demon temporarily when he killed Lilith, but that's debatable for me, because he didn't seem all that demon-like afterwards when he was talking to Ruby or Dean. So who knows if it would've stuck if he hadn't been "detoxed" or, if when Sam burned up his powers killing Lilith, the demonness went poof with it, so I tend to think that doesn't count, and that it was only Cain and Dean.

[Aeryn13]

Crowley briefly possessed Linda Tran and his black smoke went into Sam last Season, didn`t it? So he is possessing a meatsuit for sure.

 

However, I still think when Dean cut his hand and watched it heal, it was only meant to show him ruminating how he is a demon now. It wasn`t a big wound so it stands to reason it would heal quickly enough. I still think it`s not untypical for demons as seen but in the age of lol!Canon!Carver where Reapers are angels, Shifters don`t shed skin, werewolves can control themselves and Purgatory is just next door over, a little bit of demon-retconning is nothing. I`m pretty sure they would show any demon heal themselves just like this now.

 

To me, the scene directly referenced Crowley`s challenge "are you demon or human still?" Dean mused on that question because he has knowledge of how demons usually are and he must have known that he didn`t quite fit in either world there. So he watched his body do something that a human body would not do and seemed to come to a conclusion there that if it talks and walks like a duck, it must be one after all.  

[AwesomO4000]

We'll have to agree to disagree on that point, because I don't ever remember this being shown as something a demon can do. Especially healing without a scar and instantly. Lucifer healed himself, but he's technically an angel.

 

If they wanted just something to show Dean's "not humanness" they could have gone with Dean looking at himself in the mirror like he was doing at the end of last season when he was affected by the mark, and then being confronted by his black eyes. It would've been consistent with his behavior last season and gotten the point across.

[catrox14]

Dean cutting his hand wasn't the only time he healed himself. It first happened when Cole sliced his face before he cut his hand. So I think Dean knew he could heal himself for some time

[AwesomO4000]

Oh, that's right. He even sort of taunted Cole with it as a show of "you don't know what you're dealing with." But that might have been after him cutting his hand, since Dean was captured right after that I think.

 

But I agree that with his body being healed from his death and all of the fighting he was doing, he likely knew fairly early on that he could heal, so it shouldn't have been anything but mundane for Dean by that point.

 

It might also have been evidence of his mark as much as his demoninity. We'll have to see if it comes up again if he gets hurt again.