S12.E04: Old Time Rock And Roll

[Chas411]

 

I'm thinking it was just calling attention to how little Stephanie is appreciated and recognized by the higher-up docs, not just in comparison to Jo but just in general. Amelia had worked closely with Stephanie on several important cases, she trusts her, she relies on her - they've got a whole "thing" down. But she's not close to her as she should, doesn't implicitly trust this fellow doc with whom she supposedly has a great bond, as evidenced by the fact that she was so ready to accept the word of another doc that she isn't close to at all over Stephanie's. I think the big lesson was that although Amelia thinks highly of Stephanie, she doesn't treat her that way. And she made baby steps to remedy that in the end by finally extending an invitation to the stupid dinner party.

Stephanie is appreciated though. As mentioned upthread she's treated like the wonder intern who can do all specialties. Meredith complimented her work ethic two episodes ago, Mama Avery told her last season that she could be a gifted plastic surgeon if she wanted to be and this week Amelia was noticeably annoyed that Jo was helping the patient instead of Stephanie. That's my issue with Stephanie and the interns. They didn't spread the love with Ben and Jo when it came to specialties, career moves etc. They just gave all the talent to Stephanie. Jo's resentment/jealousy has been building for a while now. We've seen that she doesn't get the same level of respect from the attendings that Stephanie does and it's not due to her being incapable.From what we've seen it's moreso that Stephanie works the system better and knows how to get on everyones good side. Her jealousy is petty but I do get it. It's frustrating to watch a peer get ahead and gain respect so effortlessly especially if you're struggling yourself.

 

 

Steph's working the system was getting her a reputation as getting shit done.  It was making her look good to the higher ups.  If we are to believe Steph is ambitious and striving hard, how does getting out of working on a really important trial of Amelia's benefit her in any way or add to that reputation?  If anything her willingness to relinquish a prime spot like that to Jo should have been a clear signal that there was something very major at the root of her objection.

I took that as Jo thought Stephanie was lying to get out of trouble and stay on Amelia's good side. That's why she was uncomfortable and questioned it. She was all for Stephanie playing the system but lying about being ill was too far. I also think Jo thought she and Stephanie were closer and had she been sick she would have known about it. She didn't go straight to Amelia and I don't think that she sought to tattle on Stephanie. She was irritated that what she thought as manipulation had worked.

[Chicken Wing]

Stephanie is appreciated though.

 

But on a purely professional level, though. They recognize and commend her skills and her know-how and her gumption to get things done, but none of the major docs really know her. They have no personal appreciation for or bond with her, and I think the realization of those two things is what made Amelia ashamed of herself afterward - she works with this doctor every day and touts her great respect for her, but she doesn't even know her. None of them do. They don't know or recognize Stephanie the person. That's why she was griping at the beginning of the episode that Jo got invited to the party and she didn't. They appreciate her as a doctor, but they don't act like they like her or care about her as a person or friend, as a confidante, and Amelia realized that she should have. She should know her well enough, trust her well enough and respect her well enough as a person by now to not be so quick to disregard her.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Chicken Wing

[Chas411]

 

But on a purely professional level, though. They recognize and commend her skills and her know-how and her gumption to get things done, but none of the major docs really know her. They have no personal appreciation for or bond with her, and I think the realization of those two things is what made Amelia ashamed of herself afterward - she works with this doctor every day and touts her great respect for her, but she doesn't even know her. None of them do. They don't know or recognize Stephanie the person. That's why she was griping at the beginning of the episode that Jo got invited to the party and she didn't. They appreciate her as a doctor, but they don't act like they like her or care about her as a person or friend, as a confidante, and Amelia realized that she should have.

 

Jo got invited because she's Alex's girlfriend. That is the sole reason they asked her there. She wasn't invited because they have any respect for her or want to know her as a person. She was there because she's Alex's other half and he wanted her to know them. We've seen Meredith dismiss her personally time after time and the other night she and Maggie dismissed her professionally when they kicked her out of the operating room when she was supposed to scrub in.

 

I guess I just find it hard to see where Stephanie is dismissed. Until last night Jo thought of her as somewhat a friend and had confided in her numerous times. She clearly thought they were closer then they were since she didn't believe Stephanie was sick. Jo thought that it was something she would have known. Plus Stephanie wasn't griping about the part because she wanted to go and be friends with them all. She wanted to go because it was all the top dogs of the hospital and she was seeing it as a great opportunity to mingle.

 

Originally I thought of Jo's reaction as bad writing to back up an eyerolling pity plot but the more we discuss it the more I see and understand her reasons for reacting the way she did. I know I'm supposed to come out of this thinking Stephanie is brilliant but I can't help it, I always end up rooting for the characters I'm not supposed to.

[Chicken Wing]

Jo got invited because she's Alex's girlfriend. That is the sole reason they asked her there. She wasn't invited because they have any respect for her or want to know her as a person. She was there because she's Alex's other half and he wanted her to know them. We've seen Meredith dismiss her personally time after time and the other night she and Maggie dismissed her professionally when they kicked her out of the operating room when she was supposed to scrub in.

 

Yes, Jo was only invited because she was a "plus one," but the point is she has an "in" to the personal inner circle. She didn't "earn" it - they don't like her on her own, she gets included because she's Alex's girlfriend - but she's connected. Stephanie has no such connections, but Amelia still could have treated her like she was the kind of person who could be included in the circle. Jo doesn't get any respect or appreciation personally or professionally, but for all the professional respect Amelia and the others give to Stephanie she'd think they would respect her personally better than what happened here. That's just what I think the point might have been of this seemingly pointless storyline. Stephanie is the most unnecessary character currently on the show. She has no connections to anyone except another tertiary character who herself has no purpose outside of Girlfriend. This, I think, was the hamfisted way of bringing her into the fold by pointing out how much she's been disregarded from it.

[represent]

 

Stephanie is appreciated though. As mentioned upthread she's treated like the wonder intern

They aren't interns anymore are they? I thought they were first year residents. Meanwhile the blonde guy and the guy Maggie is sleeping with are the new interns. 

 

Sorry, I don't fee bad for Jo at all, she'll get her day and probably still have the guy and his friends too. Especially if they are intent on her being the one for Alex and as far as I can tell, she is. Meanwhile, Stephanie will continue to be used as her sounding board. So what if Stefanie gets to kill it as a resident, if that's all she's gonna do then she gets shortchanged on this

soap opera. It's a freaking soap opera the relationships are basically where the story and screen time are at.

Edited October 20, 2015 by represent

[stopthestatic]

Shouldn't Jo and Stephanie be fifth year residents?

[represent]

 

Shouldn't Jo and Stephanie be fifth year residents?

Interesting that you bring this up. I forget how much time has passed by, they were first year residents when Yang left and took Shane with her and that was when? Two years ago? He was not an intern when he left he was a resident. So you're right, they should definitely at least be third year residents by now. I mean shouldn't we start seeing them doing a bit more in an OR to assist than just suctioning? I mean when did MAGIC get to officially do their first solo surgeries? It was back in season five I think when Alex was the first right?

Edited October 20, 2015 by represent

[stopthestatic]

Interesting that you bring this up. I forget how much time has passed by, they were first year residents when Yang left and took Shane with her and that was when? Two years ago? He was not an intern when he left he was a resident. So you're right, they should definitely at least be third year residents by now. I mean shouldn't we start seeing them doing a bit more in an OR to assist than just suctioning? I mean when did MAGIC get to officially do their first solo surgeries? It was back in season five I think when Alex was the first right?

 

Our original MAGIC interns were competing for solo surgeries as early as seasons 3 and 4, I believe. The sparkle pager was season 4, IIRC. I find that these new residents take way longer to become experienced surgeons because the writers like to keep the older characters as their teachers. I found the same thing with Lexie, by the time she died she was in her fourth year and wasn't doing much.

 

And I believe they should be more than third year residents. We count the intern year, don't we? MAGIC were second year residents in seasons 4 and 5.

 

Season 9: Intern year

Season 10: 2nd year residents

Season 11: 3rd year residents

Time Jump: 4th year residents

Season 12: 5th year residents

 

If the show keeps up with that timeline Ben, Stephanie and Jo should be taking their boards at the end of this season.

Edited October 20, 2015 by stopthestatic

[Greysaddict]

The timeline is a bit confusing (shocking!) because season 11 picked up right where s10 left off so they didn't technically become 3rd year residents then. Jo, Steph and Ben should be at least 4th year or possibly 5th year by now. I do remember last season Jo had a solo surgery (I think her first) that she thought she screwed it up and went and told Bailey.

Btw, It was episode 11x07

Edited October 20, 2015 by Greysaddict

[represent]

 

If the show keeps up with that timeline Ben, Stephanie and Jo should be taking their boards at the end of this season.

Well, if they show Stefanie with a scalpel in control of an OR, I'll be more forgiving that she does not have a romantic story line or any other kind of ongoing story line for that matter. 

By the way, is it me, or is Maggie not being show in surgical scenes as Yang was...I know she isn't intense like Yang, but she's gotta be brilliant. Why isn't she shown in surgery like Callie, Bailey, Meredith even Amelia? Instead, anytime I've seen her she's with one or two of the other attendings  and she's on the verge of tears. I mean I remember the cardio surgeries always lent themselves to much better hand movements when it came to surgical procedures. The hand movements had so much more finesse and grace to them .  Yet we never see her in an OR like was saw Burke, Yang and even Hahn.  Is it just me? Because I admit I haven't watched consistently so maybe I missed it. But all the others have been shown to take charge of their OR, than she has.

Edited October 20, 2015 by represent

[photo fox]

It's a sad testament to the way male characters on this show are treated that reading everyone's comments, my first thought was, "who the hell is Ben?" lol

[Rae Spellman]

 

But, I don't think that we have seen any evidence that Amelia would think that way, and I have a hard time believing that Shonda or the writers would put that kind of thing on Amelia, who seems to be a favorite.  They have given these characters a LOT of faults but prejudice hasn't really been one of them thus far.  So while that was my initial thought, it just doesn't seem like something Grey's would do.

 

Despite the references to Stephanie's "lies" on this board, Richard pretty explicitly stated that Stephanie hadn't given Amelia any reason to question her integrity. And, I have a feeling Meredith wouldn't have taken Jo's word over Stephanie's. 

 

The scene was written in such a way that Richard may or may not have been implying that race had something to do with it. As an African American professional, there are plenty of times where I've wondered if there was some racial subtext to a situation without necessarily thinking the person involved was "prejudiced."  The thing is that plenty of good people, even good people with half-black roommates and adopted black nieces have some bias toward the words of white people. Bias they don't necessarily want to have but that has seeped in because pro-white bias is pretty ingrained in American society. Minorities aren't particularly immune to pro-white bias, either.

 

Of course, I also wondered if Richard's question to Amelia had to do with their shared history in AA. Stephanie's medical history is confidential information that she may have kept to herself much like Amelia kept her involvement in NA/AA to herself before the woman from the group outed her at Grey Sloan. 

 

If there was a racial subtext, I appreciate that instead of denying that she couldn't possibly be prejudiced because of her relationships with Maggie and Zola, Amelia paused, considered that maybe she had no good reason to take Jo's word over Stephanie's, and tried to make things right.

 

Again, despite the references to Stephanie's "lies," Jo hasn't been shown to have more integrity or to be more believable than Stephanie. Plus, no one's friend "knows for a fact" what illnesses they have and haven't had. While it was convenient that Richard was able to confirm Stephanie's story, I'm not convinced that Stephanie should have had to verify her medical history in order for it to be believed.

 

 

 

 

[Greysaddict]

I really don't think race had anything to do with Amelia believing Jo over Stephanie.  Shonda is not shy about pointing out racial divides and prejudices so I think if that is what she was going to for it would have been way less subtle.  If anything, I think it was more to show that Amelia has trust issues and has a hard time getting close to people.  I have a feeling those two things are going to play a big part both in the next episode and whenever they get back to developing Owen and Amelia's relationship.  

[Chicken Wing]

I don't know if it's a testament to the show or to the times in general that race never once occurred to me as the underlying issue before reading the theories here. But I also don't think that was it. I think it was just about Amelia not trusting Stephanie better than that even though she works closely with her and depends on her as her "go to" person for who knows how long now. Webber confronted her with this, that she so easily believed the word of another doctor that she barely knows over the one that she's practically Bobbsey twins with. Why are you so quick to dismiss someone you're supposed to trust, Amelia? How can you rely on Stephanie yet not respect her better than that? Why are none of you people's storylines remotely interesting? Or something. Of course, Stephanie didn't deny it when Amelia confronted her with what Jo said, prompting the trip to the principal's office, I mean, to Webber, but the issue, I guess, is that Amelia shouldn't have had to confront her and Stephanie shouldn't have had to prove that she was telling the truth. Between the two of them, Amelia should have taken Stephanie's word before Jo's. At least that's what I think Webber's point was.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Chicken Wing

[izabella]

I'm confused on how Stephanie became Amelia's go-to resident.  Wasn't Stephanie working closely with Arizona?  Especially when Arizona was doing that fellowship with Geena Davis?  And Stephanie was the one that saw the scans that showed April's baby was not going to make it, and was working with Arizona then, too.

 

This show is so confusing.

[Chas411]

Again Stephanie is the wonder resident. She works on all the top cases and excels in every specialty. I don't believe Jo or Ben ever get the same career attention.

[dr pepper]

He is what you would get if Mark and Derek's bromance produced a child. McRepeat?

 

I still think that those two should have been the ones to go gayi nstead of Callie.

[kingshearte]

There didn't seem any point in the storyline, either.  So what if Jo thought Stephanie was lying?  So what if Stephanie didn't deny lying to Jo?  So what if Amelia believed Jo?  I don't see why any of that matters in the least.  There are no stakes here.

My theory is that it really doesn't matter professionally. As far as doctoring goes, this will barely register as a blip. My guess is that it's meant to be the beginnings of some sort of Jo-Steph drama.

 

Same thing when Meredith said, several times, "I'm done with sex! I had my One Great Love, but now I have my kids and career and that's enough." Yeah...right. While I do agree that she doesn't need to have a new love interest right away, neither does she have to proclaim with such gusto that she's NEVER going to have love/sex again. Come on! Fake, fake, Fakey McFakerson! I'd rather she'd have said, "I had my One Great Love. I miss Derek with all my heart and soul and always will. For now, I'm going to raise my kids, bust my ass at work, but I hope that someday, I'll be ready to love again. We'll see, who knows...but not right now." That to me would have been more realistic. Don't blast these ultimatums around because we all know that it's not going to last!

I disagree on Meredith. Not that I think she'll never move on, but that it would be realistic for her to say all that stuff you suggested. I mean, yes, intellectually, she probably understands that someday she'll probably move on and meet someone else, but I don't think it's that unrealistic for someone who's lost someone to feel the way she says she feels. Whether or not it's really true or changes as soon as next week, or whatever, I have no trouble believing that that's what she feels and believes right this second.

[Biggie B]

I just felt that her delivery of those lines fell really flat - like she was trying way too hard to sell herself on the idea that she'd never have sex again, that that part of her life was over. The lady doth protesteth too much, to paraphrase Mr. Shakespeare. My husband, who doesn't watch this show, happened to walk in the room just as Meredith was making the "never again" proclamtion, and he said, "So of course that character will be having rabid sex any minute now, right?"

 

I get what you're saying - that at that moment, Meredith truly believed she was done with sex and love. It could be a defense mechanism - it's pretty scary to try to imagine opening yourself up again to such feelings, as it could lead once again to pain and loss, so your brain protects you by making you say, "Not gonna happen!" I just didn't believe her...I guess all those years of watching soap operas makes me cynical - whenever a character says something, you can almost always expect the opposite to happen.

[Nobodysfan]

Yes, I agree Biggie B,all those anvils - it is laughable. Your husband  - bless him. What a great comment from him and he doesn´t even know

Henderson´s character is coming, and the actor ALREADY has a permanent role status.

 

It is so silly to have Meredith say all this and one can only roll eyes at it that when we know Henderson´s character is coming SOON to be M´s vagina train driver  if we follow Greys writers mojo.

 

IF the writers had the guts to fulfil what she said in the series, then I would have some respect, otherwise sorry but it is nothing else only CRAP - empty words which mean nothing.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Season5OwenHuntfan

[jaytee1812]

It is so silly to have Meredith say all this and one can only roll eyes at it that when we know Henderson´s character is coming soon to be M´s vagina train driver  if we follow Greys writers mojo.

We don't know that at all.

But a woman barely out of her thirties saying a sex life is behind her is a bit ridiculous.

[photo fox]

I agree, we don't know anything beyond the fact that an age-appropriate doctor has been cast.  There are other female characters, or he might not hook up with anyone.  (I know that's unlikely, but it's possible he'll be more of a Hermann type, i.e. "just" a doctor.)

 

I didn't think what Meredith said was unusual at all, and I don't think she necessarily believes it forever.  It's just something people say when they're in a dry spell.  "I'm never going to have sex again."  Of course, never is a long time, but I think she just meant that right now, she doesn't see how she will ever get to that place in her future.  Logically, in her head, she probably realizes being celibate "forever" is unlikely.

[Artymouse]

If it were real life, I would absolutely believe Meredith was speaking as a woman still grieving the death of her husband, but that she would progress further in the grief process and eventually open her mind and heart to the idea of falling in love again.

But since this is Shondaland, where the anvils fall like rain during a monsoon, I would not be terribly surprised to see Meredith hitting an on-call room with an inappropriate guy before the midseason winter finale. I really and truly hope that doesn't happen, and maybe it won't, especially since so many fans are still mad about how McDreamy's death was handled. But you could probably count on one hand the number of times a character made an adamant statement and didn't do the complete opposite by the next episode.

[Nobodysfan]

I posted in the wrong thread.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Season5OwenHuntfan

[Nobodysfan]

I posted in the wrong thread.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Season5OwenHuntfan

[Chicken Wing]

On the Meredith thing, I'm reminded of Susan's comments in the last episode of Desperate Housewives. (I don't think I'm spoiling anything; the show's been over for three years now.) Very recently widowed - like, just a few weeks - she is questioned over the idea of ever finding love again. She says something to the effect of her possibly having another sexy romance or two left in her, but probably not another Great Love like she had with her husband and that's okay because she'll have her memories to keep her warm at night. She doesn't pretend that she can never find love again for as long as she lives. Even though she's not ready, she knows her life isn't over. That, I felt, was more realistic than what Meredith said. She's obviously not interested in finding another romance right now, and it certainly feels like she never will again, but intellectually she knows very well that's not true, that people can and do move on even though it once felt like they never would, so stating outright that, no, it will never happen again, period, is just silly. I'd rather she said that it's still a little too soon to think about that and she simply doesn't know if it will or could ever happen for her again, but that's okay because she's got everything she needs and she's happy either way. I just hate that she spoke with such conviction over something that we know is just not realistic.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Chicken Wing

[timimouse]

I must've really read that scene wrong because I didn't he the impression Meredith was saying that she'd never be with a man again. I took it as "right now, I'm content with what I do have. That was my great love and I lost it and I'm ok for now".

[Chicken Wing]

She said the sexy time part of her life was over, period, that she'd had her great love but he's gone and she's done. She didn't really imply a "for now."

[Nobodysfan]

She said the sexy time part of her life was over, period, that she'd had her great love but he's gone and she's done. She didn't really imply a "for now."

My exact thought. But I think it actually means the opposite what writers are cooking - a love interest for her sooon to come.Maybe. To turn her words upside down and negate them.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Season5OwenHuntfan

[BizBuzz]

The words were actually this:

 

It's... it's... I'm a widow. I mean, like in the books and the movies. You don't think that that happens, but it does. It's just... I'm closed for business. Vagina City's a ghost town. Orgasm train doesn't roll through here anymore. That part of my life is over.

 

You know, eventually, you'll... when you're ready...

 

No. I don't want to. It's fine. I'm okay. I'm good.

 

 

To me, it can be taken all sorts of ways ... when I first heard it, I was like, that is typical for a new widow to say that.  I have had friends lose their mates and say almost the exact same thing (not VC or OT) ... but very similar sentiments.

 

They ended up getting involved again.  

 

But that is how I took it.  So perception could be based on life experiences, ya know?

[BizBuzz]

Ok ... so GA hasn't been must see TV for me in quite a long time.  I haven't watched live since Derek passed, and even that episode I watched under duress (and wished I hadn't) ... but I am actually excited to see tonight's episode LIVE.  It was all about the closing on Meredith's face.  ::giggle::

 

Shonda?  THAT is the way to bring people back.  HA!

[pennben]

Just when you thought you were out.......

[kingshearte]

To me, it can be taken all sorts of ways ... when I first heard it, I was like, that is typical for a new widow to say that.  I have had friends lose their mates and say almost the exact same thing (not VC or OT) ... but very similar sentiments.

 

They ended up getting involved again.  

 

But that is how I took it.  So perception could be based on life experiences, ya know?

That's exactly what I thought. Especially if you bear in mind the fact that she has three fairly small children (much as I hesitate to bring them up, for fear of stirring that particular wasp's nest), and that that often leads to people just not really thinking about sex. So if you're not having any right now, you have other priorities that are keeping you from really even thinking much about it, and there's no one around who causes you to have the sort of feelings that lead to thinking about it, I can absolutely see how you might find yourself so OK with the not having sex that you're willing to accept the idea of never having it again. It's a little like Izzie's comparison way back in season 1 or 2 (I started rewatching recently) about the beast, and how, if it sleeps long enough, you sort of forget that it even exists, and you just proceed through life not worrying about feeding it.

 

Despite all that, I'm just as confident as all of you that the beast will be awoken very soon. Just because she thinks this way this second doesn't mean I think it's going to stay that way.