Spike: Out. For. A. Walk... Bitch.

[Bitterswete]

But Buffy never held back with Angel she was always telling him things like her worries and fears.

 

With Angel, I do agree that she was open with him in a way she never was again in her later relationships - Riley in particular suffered from that. I think it's because Angel and Buffy were each other's first loves - and that person always has that special place that no-one else can really touch.

 

Actually, I never saw Buffy spilling to Angel as an indication of her level of feeling for him compared to anybody else. I think you can feel as strongly about one person as another but have two totally different relationships with each one. (One maybe being more open, for example.)

 

I kind of saw Angel as Buffy's diary, as weird as that might sound. Whenever Buffy wanted to unload about whatever was going on in her life, he was there to listen (because he really didn't have anything else going on). He could really focus on whatever she was telling him because, again, it wasn't like he had a bunch of issues in his own life to think about. He didn't judge her, and she didn't feel like she had to protect him from anything (the way she sometimes seemed to with her friends). And while he might offer some advice, it was really more about Buffy just wanting to get stuff off her chest than her wanting someone to tell her how to handle a situation (which is all you want sometimes). 

 

Also, their relationship started at an age when Buffy was much more open, which had a lot to do with it.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Bitterswete

[Jazzy24]

Actually, I never saw Buffy spilling to Angel as an indication of her level of feeling for him compared to anybody else. I think you can feel as strongly about one person as another but have two totally different relationships with each one. (One maybe being more open, for example.)

I kind of saw Angel as Buffy's diary, as weird as that might sound. Whenever Buffy wanted to unload about whatever was going on in her life, he was there to listen (because he really didn't have anything else going on). He could really focus on whatever she was telling him because, again, it wasn't like he had a bunch of issues in his own life to think about. He didn't judge her, and she didn't feel like she had to protect him from anything (the way she sometimes seemed to with her friends). And while he might offer some advice, it was really more about Buffy just wanting to get stuff off her chest than her wanting someone to tell her how to handle a situation (which is all you want sometimes).

Also, their relationship started at an age when Buffy was much more open, which had a lot to do with it.

I don't mean to derail Spike's thread sorry.

But Im trying to argue about Buffy always holding some part of herself away from people and with Angel she never did that.

And to the bolded I agree but in the later years when Buffy shuts down and stop sharing completely she is still able to open up with Angel without any prompts, at the worst times in her life she still opens up to him where we never get that with any of her other relationships besides Giles.

[Jazzy24]

I definitely agree that Buffy/Giles was her best relationship - before it was ruined in S7. Most definitely, he was her person more than any other. But still, there were parts of her he either didn't understand - her continued love for Angel, for instance - or simply couldn't accept as true. I always thought Giles never really accepted that Buffy had a darkness in her. He wanted the best for her - the way any father does - and was a little blind to her darker leanings. But yes, I still agree that he was her person in a way no other character on the whole show ever was.

With Angel, I do agree that she was open with him in a way she never was again in her later relationships - Riley in particular suffered from that. I think it's because Angel and Buffy were each other's first loves - and that person always has that special place that no-one else can really touch. Leaving aside how damaged the relationship left Buffy in the end, Angel would always be that ever-elusive perfect love that she couldn't have. It's why IMO she felt able to confide in him in ways she couldn't with her friends - in Forever, for example. But do I think the Angel that appeared in Chosen really knew the Buffy that was in Chosen? No, I don't. And vice versa. They were entirely different people by then, shaped by experiences and life in a way they couldn't come back from. It's why even though a part of me will always be a Bangel shipper I did not for even a second think the cookie dough speech was an actual promise from either of them of continuing their relationship in the future. I think it was their way of always leaving the possibility there, the dangling promise of going back to your first love - something that probably feels very familiar and secure, even though it's long past its time. There's a comfort in that I think they both needed. But they didn't know each other any more IMO.

I defiantly don't think Giles ever held Buffy loving Angel against her. Besides Willow Giles is who understands her relationship with Angel the most and he's able to get past the Angelus stuff in season 2 with working with Angel and even wondering if he was alright at one time. I Don't think Giles ever understood the Spike thing that's what he can't understand but yeah Giles was her best relationship.

And I kinda agree with your second paragraph but I don't think Angel left her damaged in the end in some ways he was her most healthy relationship. But IMO it's not because he was her first love it's because he's the one she loves most and call it my Bangle shipping but I do think Buffy meant it when she told Willow and Xander in Selfless that she loved Angel more than anything in her lifetime.

But I don't think they had ever outgrown each other like some people say. Yes Angel and Buffy had experiences away from each other grew and in Buffy's case regressed but the love they had never left. Buffy even years later is able to talk and open up to Angel when she isn't able to with anyone else. They're able to tell each other what's going on in their lives the good and the bad and still be there for each other.

Many people find their way back to each other even with spending years apart and experiencing life. I don't see how Buffy and Angel couldn't.

[lembergwatcher]

It never ceases to amaze me how gullible all of the Scoobies were when it came to Spike. Accepting anything he said at face value was outright stupid and they continued to fall for that trick time and time again (S.04 - the most obviuos example). Almost making him a member of the gang was even more suicidal. Spike's inability to hurt any of them since getting that chip - quite a lame reason to keep him around. Not being able to bite didn't make the bleached vamp some sort of a harmless puppy or trustworthy companion. The fact that they stayed alive 'til the very last season is pure miracle. Or bad writing.

Edited August 19, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

Spike's inability to hurt any of them since getting that chip - quite a lame reason to keep him around.

Especially as they didn't know how the chip worked or how long it would last.  As it turns out, barely over three years;  that's hardly a sneeze in Buffy's lifespan, never mind a spectacular job of kicking the can down the road and endangering the populace once Spike is free to kill again.

But, of course, Whedon knew that Sparky would have a soooooooooooooul by then, so he had the characters not worry about this sort of thing.  Ah, I love the smell of hack writing in the morning…

[lembergwatcher]

Sometimes I think those vampire-wannabes from Lie to Me were based on Joss himself. That episode was surely prophetic. Only this time the Scooby Gang itself and the viewers for that matter were supposed to be like those customers of the Sunset Club. First mocking the idea of vamps being "cool" or worthy of worship and then promoting it in four consecutive seasons - I sense some major phoniness.

[Halting Hex]

37 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

First mocking the idea of vamps being "cool" or worthy of worship and then promoting it in four consecutive seasons - I sense some major phoniness.

"People still fall for that Anne Rice* routine? What a world!"

*-Useless trivia:  Anne Rice's legal name is Howard Allen O'Brien.  Apparently Mr. O'Brien promised his friend Howard Allen that he would name his child for Howard, and didn't much care that it turned out to be a girl with girl parts.  Gee, thanks, Dad.

[Jack Shaftoe]

13 minutes ago, nosleepforme said:

I mean, Joss and the writers have said numerous times that the vampires were initially just there to be staked and Angel was supposed to be the only good vampire, but then Spike (and to a lesser degree Drusilla) just clicked as actors/characters and suddenly vampires became more than they initially intended. Same with Harmony.

So basically Joss is terrible at worldbuilding. Or consistent characterization if it gets in the way of keeping actor X in the show. Thanks, Joss.

[Halting Hex]

Sparing Spike for the duration of S2 makes sense, because you want some "in-house" tension for Angel's scenes.  And, as annoying as it is that Buffy lets him and Drusilla get away at the end of Becoming, Part 2, it works to reduce the ending to simply B vs. A.  But if you're never going let him advance beyond subvillain status, it makes very little sense to keep bringing him back.  And don't get me started on "redemption" via the Sodding Chip, obviously.

[Halting Hex]

3 minutes ago, nosleepforme said:

But all seasons from 4 to 6 still represented him as someone who could not be entirely trusted and dangerous.

Well, in Season 6, the Scoobies were more comfortable letting Spike watch Dawn than the producers were letting 39-year-old James hang around 16-year-old Michelle (probably shouldn't have written that song about how "Dangerous" she is to you because of your attraction, Jimmy…), so I'm not sure about that one.

[lembergwatcher]

I totally prefer "I've known you for two minutes, and I can't stand you. I don't really feature you livin' forever."-type Spike than the one who fakes righteous anger, while tryin' to shame the Scoobies for "betraying" his precious slayer in Touched.

Overall I still don't get what makes Spike that different from, say, Lyle Gorch. Maybe many people are too impressed with his cheesy 'rebellious' type, fueled by some punk rock cliche in image, attitude, and behavior ("rebel without a cause/a brain"). JMHO.

As for James Marsters being likable, they could give him another role. Quite a few Buffyverse actors played more than one character. 

Edited August 19, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Jack Shaftoe]

1 hour ago, nosleepforme said:

Well, I think at the beginning of the show, they did not exactly know what the show was going to be, they were still figuring things out. The world was not built. The show was very black-and-white at the beginning, they drew clear lines between evil=demons/vampires and good=people, but then somewhere down the line that changed.

This changed yes and not only was that bad idea in itself if you ask me but the writers never bothered to actually, you know, deal with the full repercussions of this change, so our protagonists kept on merrily slaughtering dozens and dozens of vampires and demons but balked at the idea of killing even the vilest of humans. And then when the plot required it killing certain demons or vampires was suddenly bad. No consistency whatsoever. This isn't just a worldbuilding flaw, it's a huge characterization problem. In order for Spike (or Anya or Andrew or Harmony) to remain in the show the Scoobies had to take huge doses of the stupid pills and abandon most of their moral principles to boot. And of course, Spike himself took extra doses of the stupid pills because he kept on taunting the people who were supposed to hate him for years even when he himself was helpless. It's like a sitcom but without the fun.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Jack Shaftoe

[lembergwatcher]

9 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

This changed yes and not only was that bad idea in itself if you ask me but the writers never bothered to actually, you know, deal with the full repercussions of this change, so our protagonists kept on merrily slaughtering dozens and dozens of vampires and demons but balked at the idea of killing even the vilest of humans. And then when the plot required it killing certain demons or vampires was suddenly bad. No consistency whatsoever. This isn't just a worldbuilding flaw, it's a huge characterization problem. In order for Spike (or Anya or Andrew or Harmony) to remain in the show the Scoobies had to take huge doses of the stupid pills and abandon most of their moral principles to boot. And of course, Spike himself took extra doses of the stupid pills because he kept on taunting the people who were supposed to hate him for years even when he himself was helpless. It's like a sitcom but without the fun.

Apparently Buffy was overdosed on those stupid pills in S.07. because of constant "he has a soul = he's a good man (or worthy to be chosen over someone like Robin Wood)" BS. Since when having a soul means someone's outright good? Hitler or Ted Bundy weren't soulles and yet...

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎20‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 8:40 AM, lembergwatcher said:

Apparently Buffy was overdosed on those stupid pills in S.07. because of constant "he has a soul = he's a good man (or worthy to be chosen over someone like Robin Wood)" BS. Since when having a soul means someone's outright good? Hitler or Ted Bundy weren't soulles and yet...

Because William the Bloody was a good man and even soulless William cared enough to get his soul back?

[lembergwatcher]

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Because William the Bloody was a good man and even soulless William cared enough to get his soul back?

We don't know much about William the Bloody Poet. And, yeah, soulless William "cared enough to get his soul back" and still felt no remorse for his crimes (his encounter with Robin Wood in the final series proves this). In fact he lamented over loss of jacket he took from murdered Nikki Wood even after getting his soul back, after final battle over Sunnydale Hellmouth and after his own ressurection - in Angel's The Girl in Question. I doubt he really cared about anything/anyone except for his slayer-shaped obsession.

[Halting Hex]

On 8/27/2018 at 10:45 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

Because William the Bloody was a good man

Buffy wasn't there to see this, so she's in no position to be making judgments based on it.

Indeed, the episode in which we meet William (who still comes off as a stalker, IMO) shows Spike lying about his past throughout.  So there's even less reason for Buffy to take him at his word.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

I think there was no clearer evidence of Buffy's slow and painful death than Spike's rise to stardom during four consecutive seasons of the show. I still find it hard to decide what annoyed me most:

1. The series' new "evil guys are definitely cool (and we don't give a shit about the victims)" paradigm with writers doin' their best to prove that monster, who proudly wore the jacket stripped from Nikki Wood's dead body, was actually the good guy and the real hero, and every thing that came out of his mouth was in fact the absolute truth (I still remember him taunting W & X in Doomed and their reaction to his words as if Spikey knew better when it came to the SG and its history). I hated the bleached vamp for taking more and more screen time every subsequent season, and the very notion of Spike being immensely superior to the other Scoobs just because Buffy liked it rough from behind makes me sick to this very day.
   
2. The blatant disdain most of the Scoobies treated Spikey with (at least during seasons 4-6), while continuing to ask for his assistance time after time or not minding him being involved in their activities or just hanging around (they told him to sod off occasionally, but to no avail). He deserved that kind of attitude, no doubt about it, but the gang should have been more consistent (you either do everything to keep him away or get used to Captain Peroxide constantly being around). Friggin' staking him would have been more, I dunno, honest (the assumption of Spike becoming "harmless" after getting his present from Initiative's surgeons was just a bullshit for clueless kids). Seriously, he begged for it since the mid-season 4!  

       

 

And last but not least, rumor has it, Joss wanted Alyson Hannigan to become show's main sex symbol. Don't know whether it's true or not, but he probably confused Aly with James Marsters in the end...

[Joe Hellandback]

8 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

I think there was no clearer evidence of Buffy's slow and painful death than Spike's rise to stardom during four consecutive seasons of the show. I still find it hard to decide what annoyed me most:

1. The series' new "evil guys are definitely cool (and we don't give a shit about the victims)" paradigm with writers doin' their best to prove that monster, who proudly wore the jacket stripped from Nikki Wood's dead body, was actually the good guy and the real hero, and every thing that came out of his mouth was in fact the absolute truth (I still remember him taunting W & X in Doomed and their reaction to his words as if Spikey knew better when it came to the SG and its history). I hated the bleached vamp for taking more and more screen time every subsequent season, and the very notion of Spike being immensely superior to the other Scoobs just because Buffy liked it rough from behind makes me sick to this very day.
   
2. The blatant disdain most of the Scoobies treated Spikey with (at least during seasons 4-6), while continuing to ask for his assistance time after time or not minding him being involved in their activities or just hanging around (they told him to sod off occasionally, but to no avail). He deserved that kind of attitude, no doubt about it, but the gang should have been more consistent (you either do everything to keep him away or get used to Captain Peroxide constantly being around). Friggin' staking him would have been more, I dunno, honest (the assumption of Spike becoming "harmless" after getting his present from Initiative's surgeons was just a bullshit for clueless kids). Seriously, he begged for it since the mid-season 4!  

       

 

And last but not least, rumor has it, Joss wanted Alyson Hannigan to become show's main sex symbol. Don't know whether it's true or not, but he probably confused Aly with James Marsters in the end...

AH did get voted 11th sexiest woman in the world! Spike is a bit of a necessary comic foil for the ever so earnest Scoobs,

Spoiler

much as he is to Angel in s5, Anya to a degree plays the same role as they observe in WTWTA

[Halting Hex]

29 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Spike is a bit of a necessary comic foil for the ever so earnest Scoobs,

Xander Harris…earnest?  Moist and delicious, I can see…but earnest?

[Joe Hellandback]

1 minute ago, Halting Hex said:

Xander Harris…earnest?  Moist and delicious, I can see…but earnest?

Fairly so, definitely with Anya?

[lembergwatcher]

54 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Spike is a bit of a necessary comic foil

Then they chose the wrong guy to be a comic foil. Some homicidal maniacs (Spike is definitely one of the worst serial killers since his time frame was 1880 - 1999) are probably quite charming and funny types in those moments when they don't kill, but I will never find their jokes funny, let alone laugh at them.

[Halting Hex]

Can a romantic lead be a comic foil in a drama, anyhow?  There were a few jokes told at Angel's expense, but he wasn't supposed to be lightening the tone, overall.  The same for Riley.  I have a hard time justifying Spike's canon-destroying existence with "but…he's so funny!" when his essential role is to provide something other than humor.

If you want to date Buffy, you have to be judged by the standards of "should Buffy really be dating this guy?".  But JMO

[Joe Hellandback]

8 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Can a romantic lead be a comic foil in a drama, anyhow?  There were a few jokes told at Angel's expense, but he wasn't supposed to be lightening the tone, overall.  The same for Riley.  I have a hard time justifying Spike's canon-destroying existence with "but…he's so funny!" when his essential role is to provide something other than humor.

If you want to date Buffy, you have to be judged by the standards of "should Buffy really be dating this guy?".  But JMO

He's not so much funny in himself as the situations he creates, the Buffybot, his hysterical relationship with Harmony. 

[Halting Hex]

So, I'm collecting unspoiled (or reasonably so) reviews from around the web, and I've run into Michael Collado at notwhitenoise.com. (Michael does seem to know one thing about Willow, to judge by the "because…reasons" that pops up every time the subject of Willow and boys does.  I wonder if S3 is going to surprise Michael, then?) I'm reading the review Michael wrote after watching Surprise/Innocence, and wow, he is not feeling the Spike:

Quote

Last week, everyone told me that Spike is JUST THE BEST OKAY SHUT UP and I decided not to respond to those comments because I’m REALLY bad at confrontation, so instead I’ll offer my reasoning here. The way Spike was presented was full-on badass. I know everyone is saying that’s not the reason you love him, but that’s how he was presented. How else do you label someone whose first scene is him driving in a sweet car,  knocking down a sign, and then smoking a cigarette in a leather jacket? Legally night blind? Then his second scene was him bragging that he killed three other slayers in his lifetime. Unfortunately, he hasn’t lived up to his introduction in the least. For the time being, the reason I think Drusilla could be a better villain is because she has more connection to Angel (and therefore Buffy). Yes, Spike loves Dru and that means he has a thread in that connection, but the execution is just not strong enough in this second season. People like Ted have brought better emotional havoc to Buffy and Friends than Spike and Dru. Even in “Surprise,” Buffy dreams of Dru killing Angel. Spike isn’t even in the dream! See where I’m getting at? That’s what I think, anyway. And of course, there’s a lot of series left to figure out who the Spike character is, because apparently HE’S JUST THE BEST so I’m going to shut up now.

It does bring to mind David Hines and those on the newsgroup who thought Spike really wasn't that effective as a lead villain.  Drusilla is more mysterious and more connected to Angel/Buffy; Spike is somewhat watchable and he talks a good game, but that's it.  His major asset is his romantic devotion to Dru.

I honestly don't think he starts to shine until he's reduced to sniping at Angel from the wheelchair; he shines as a bitchy subvillain in a way he never did as the "Big Bad".  Interesting that the series never really went back there;  Faith gave the Mayor a little lip, but nothing like "someone wasn't woooorthy".  Adam killed Maggie, which certainly qualifies as a rebellion, but rather cut short their interactions.  Glory's minions fell all over themselves groveling before her, and Andrew was in love with Warren.  And Windbag mostly just talked to whoever was unlucky enough to draw the short straw, no real interactions there.

But Spike made the vampire lair scenes pop, it's true.  Not sure that's worth four years' worth of regular work for James, though.

[lembergwatcher]

It's kind of interesting to me, who did more damage to the show at the end: Spike or Anya?

[Glory]

On 8/19/2018 at 3:54 PM, Halting Hex said:

Well, in Season 6, the Scoobies were more comfortable letting Spike watch Dawn than the producers were letting 39-year-old James hang around 16-year-old Michelle (probably shouldn't have written that song about how "Dangerous" she is to you because of your attraction, Jimmy…), so I'm not sure about that one.

What? Is this true? I had no idea. 

[Halting Hex]

"She's 18, right?" "Now."

I technically don't know when in late-2001 James wrote this song, so MT might actually only have been 15-going-on-16 at the time. Even 16 is an eyebrow raise, given that he was 39, though.  And yes, there's reports that she was the one doing the flirting (she did tell a story during an interview on Late Night with Conan O'Brien a few years later about flirting with Hugh Laurie during her infamous House, M.D. guest spot…although given the subject matter of that ep, I don't know how Michelle could have avoided it), but even so, I can see that the producers might have figured the best thing was no more "Little Bit" scenes, rather than relying on/worrying about James's self-discipline to see them through.  I mean, he did write the song, after all.

Inside the show, it does damage the Spike character a bit.  (Not that I necessarily minded that, I'll admit.)  It's perhaps most noticeable in Gone, where he actively avoids her, going from the kitchen to the living room via the "sun room" at the back the house, rather than pass by the front stairs where Dawn is.  By the time she shows up in his crypt in Seeing Red, they've gone 16 episodes without speaking to each other.  So much for all that "Buffy trusts him with Dawn" that the redemptionistas were so fond of…

[lembergwatcher]

27 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

I can see that the producers might have figured the best thing was no more "Little Bit" scenes, rather than relying on/worrying about James's self-discipline

I think the producers did "one fine thing" thus avoiding some naughtiness that could have happened. There are rumours Jimmy has a thing for much younger girls. He was reportedly flirting with numerous young fans during some of those conventions time after time. And his current wife seems to be close to his son's age.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎17‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 12:58 AM, lembergwatcher said:

It's kind of interesting to me, who did more damage to the show at the end: Spike or Anya?

I would say 'neither'? Anya was a charm and it was Spike who gave Angel its' s5 boost?

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎23‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 10:10 PM, Halting Hex said:

 

 

"She's 18, right?" "Now."

I technically don't know when in late-2001 James wrote this song, so MT might actually only have been 15-going-on-16 at the time. Even 16 is an eyebrow raise, given that he was 39, though.  And yes, there's reports that she was the one doing the flirting (she did tell a story during an interview on Late Night with Conan O'Brien a few years later about flirting with Hugh Laurie during her infamous House, M.D. guest spot…although given the subject matter of that ep, I don't know how Michelle could have avoided it), but even so, I can see that the producers might have figured the best thing was no more "Little Bit" scenes, rather than relying on/worrying about James's self-discipline to see them through.  I mean, he did write the song, after all.

Inside the show, it does damage the Spike character a bit.  (Not that I necessarily minded that, I'll admit.)  It's perhaps most noticeable in Gone, where he actively avoids her, going from the kitchen to the living room via the "sun room" at the back the house, rather than pass by the front stairs where Dawn is.  By the time she shows up in his crypt in Seeing Red, they've gone 16 episodes without speaking to each other.  So much for all that "Buffy trusts him with Dawn" that the redemptionistas were so fond of…

Well before we descend into a Sting song I think that may be wishful thinking on some people's parts, I do recall in one of the commentaries (I think Bargaining?) Magic Jane comments they were uncomfortable with Dawn/Spike scenes due to MT's maturing (I means she LITERALLY becomes a Disney Princess).

 Buffy does trust Spike with Dawn but she still knows he's evil.  

On ‎23‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 10:48 PM, lembergwatcher said:

I think the producers did "one fine thing" thus avoiding some naughtiness that could have happened. There are rumours Jimmy has a thing for much younger girls. He was reportedly flirting with numerous young fans during some of those conventions time after time. And his current wife seems to be close to his son's age.

Well didn't Mrs Brady date her TV son? And Nash Bridges his TV daughter? I wouldn't read too much into convention behaviour, that's what the autographers are there for. 

[Halting Hex]

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Magic Jane comments they were uncomfortable with Dawn/Spike scenes due to MT's maturing

Why would they become less comfortable with Spawn scenes as Dawn became more of an adult?  Or is JE saying the scenes between them in S5 were a mistake, she now feels?

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Well didn't Mrs Brady date her TV son?

I think Barry Williams only got one uneventful date out of Florence Henderson, as I recall. Nothing truly scandalous.

OTOH, apparently Maureen McCormick (Marcia) and Eve Plumb (Jan) did hook up on at least one occasion, although one of them denied it when the other first told the story.  (I forget who spilled.)  Makes all those "Marcia, Marcia, Marcia!" and "Sure, Jan" jokes have an extra meaning, lol.

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

And Nash Bridges his TV daughter?

There's a bit of talk about Don Johnson being Not A Nice Person, on many levels.  But we're notably OT, now.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

6 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Anya was a charm and it was Spike who gave Angel its' s5 boost?

Charm? You mean her constant nostalgia about the past days of mayhem, murder and torture or blathering about her and Xander's sex life? The charm has never been that uncharming. And I do remember that Angel's season 5 happened to be the series' final. Apparently the boost wasn't strong enough.
Spike. The slayer of two slayers. The killer of two shows.

[Joe Hellandback]

15 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Why would they become less comfortable with Spawn scenes as Dawn became more of an adult?  Or is JE saying the scenes between them in S5 were a mistake, she now feels?

I think Barry Williams only got one uneventful date out of Florence Henderson, as I recall. Nothing truly scandalous.

OTOH, apparently Maureen McCormick (Marcia) and Eve Plumb (Jan) did hook up on at least one occasion, although one of them denied it when the other first told the story.  (I forget who spilled.)  Makes all those "Marcia, Marcia, Marcia!" and "Sure, Jan" jokes have an extra meaning, lol.

There's a bit of talk about Don Johnson being Not A Nice Person, on many levels.  But we're notably OT, now.

Because it's one thing having Dawn as a little girl but now she's sexually maturing.

Now THAT's good gossip! Let's see;

The Brady Bunch to Buffy; Florence Henderson is in Ellen with Ellen Degenerees who's in SFU with MT who's in Buffy so 4. 

Nash Bridges to Buffy; Don Johnson is in Django Kills with Leonardo Dicarprio who's in 'Catch me if you can' with Amy Acker so 4 again

12 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Charm? You mean her constant nostalgia about the past days of mayhem, murder and torture or blathering about her and Xander's sex life? The charm has never been that uncharming. And I do remember that Angel's season 5 happened to be the series' final. Apparently the boost wasn't strong enough.
Spike. The slayer of two slayers. The killer of two shows.

But she still has her charm, her fish out of waterness and gauchness, her humour and beauty.

Spike didn't kill Angel the series, he boosted the ratings.  

[Smad]

On 27.10.2018 at 11:47 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

Because it's one thing having Dawn as a little girl but now she's sexually maturing.

Or because JM released a song that was dedicated to MT and was extremely skeevy and icky so Dawn/Spike scenes weren't done anymore.

 

On 27.10.2018 at 11:47 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

Spike didn't kill Angel the series, he boosted the ratings.  

That's too much of a narrow focus only used by Spike fans. The more Spike heavy BTVS became, the worse the ratings got. When it came to AtS, if you were in the fandom back then you'd know that there were just as many (if not more) people tuning into AtS S5 because Buffy had ended and they missed the verse so they went on to watch AtS even if they hadn't before. This fantasy that Spike fans have of him as this huge sell and ratings winner for anything regarding Buffy/Angel can easily be disputed by FACTS. As in numbers. Buffy's viewership dropped heavily in the later Seasons, especially S6-7. If Spike was such a winner, shouldn't the ratings be high? If so many Spike fans watched AtS S5, shouldn't the ratings have sky rocketed? If Spike was so beloved and sought after why did none of the post-verse shows/projects never took off? None of the ideas of spin-off shows/movies happened. Even the comics dispel this notion of Spike as any sort of huge sell. Angel: After The Fall outsold Spike: ATF by a landslide. In fact none of the Spike-centric comics ever sold (granted, lots of them are just bad from what I heard).

[Joe Hellandback]

12 hours ago, Smad said:

Or because JM released a song that was dedicated to MT and was extremely skeevy and icky so Dawn/Spike scenes weren't done anymore.

 

That's too much of a narrow focus only used by Spike fans. The more Spike heavy BTVS became, the worse the ratings got. When it came to AtS, if you were in the fandom back then you'd know that there were just as many (if not more) people tuning into AtS S5 because Buffy had ended and they missed the verse so they went on to watch AtS even if they hadn't before. This fantasy that Spike fans have of him as this huge sell and ratings winner for anything regarding Buffy/Angel can easily be disputed by FACTS. As in numbers. Buffy's viewership dropped heavily in the later Seasons, especially S6-7. If Spike was such a winner, shouldn't the ratings be high? If so many Spike fans watched AtS S5, shouldn't the ratings have sky rocketed? If Spike was so beloved and sought after why did none of the post-verse shows/projects never took off? None of the ideas of spin-off shows/movies happened. Even the comics dispel this notion of Spike as any sort of huge sell. Angel: After The Fall outsold Spike: ATF by a landslide. In fact none of the Spike-centric comics ever sold (granted, lots of them are just bad from what I heard).

When did he release it and is it online?

I wouldn't blame Spike for Buffy's ratings decline, 6 overall was a depressing season. I think you're right, deprived on any more Buffy a lot of fans who had previously not watched it but the Spikettes were a factor. 

[Halting Hex]

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

When did he release it and is it online?

"Dangerous" is a song by James's band, Ghost of the Robot.  He wrote it in late-2001, and it appears on their 2003 LP, Mad Brilliant.  Scroll up in the thread and you'll find both the official music video and a performance from a 2004 New Orleans convention that I posted.

[wendyg]

On 26/10/2018 at 7:13 PM, Halting Hex said:

Why would they become less comfortable with Spawn scenes as Dawn became more of an adult?  Or is JE saying the scenes between them in S5 were a mistake, she now feels?

You could argue that MT's increased maturity, which still being under age, made the risk that JM and MT would become involved greater than when she was visibly more of a (tall) little girl. Plus, the song brought it to their attention. It sounds like the showrunners took appropriate responsibility for safeguarding the young actress.

[Joe Hellandback]

23 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

"Dangerous" is a song by James's band, Ghost of the Robot.  He wrote it in late-2001, and it appears on their 2003 LP, Mad Brilliant.  Scroll up in the thread and you'll find both the official music video and a performance from a 2004 New Orleans convention that I posted.

Ok, must do

22 hours ago, wendyg said:

You could argue that MT's increased maturity, which still being under age, made the risk that JM and MT would become involved greater than when she was visibly more of a (tall) little girl. Plus, the song brought it to their attention. It sounds like the showrunners took appropriate responsibility for safeguarding the young actress.

Understandable although not really any smear on James, he didn't have 'Jennifer fever' Elvis and Priscila 

Edited October 31, 2018 by Joe Hellandback

[Halting Hex]

So I've made a couple of jokes about m/m sex recently, because I'm a sucker for a cheap laugh.  But I got to thinking about Spike and Xander (Spander), because one can hardly avoid the fanfic, even if one wishes to.  And I had a thought about the period where Spike is chipped, which is where much of the fic is set.

Can Spike, while chipped, actually have sex with Xander? (Or any human?)  I mean, unless he's a pure bottom and only receives.  Is the chip capable of distinguishing between Spike slamming Xander up against a wall, and Spike, er, slamming into Xander?  I know it's all fictional so we can draw the line anywhere we want, but I'm having a hard time coming up with a logic that could so finely divine Spike's intentions.

I mean, it's not a problem with Spuffy, since Buffy is (sigh) apparently a demon, but Xander is not only moist and delicious but 100% human.  I'd like to give Joss the benefit of the doubt and pretend that trying to finesse this question is the only reason that Buffy was both cast as Vagina of Redemption and rewritten as demonic, but I admit that this may be beyond even my prodigious Powers of Fanwanking.

I also note that Spike never has sex with Human!Anya, but we're not even one episode into Anya's second tour as a demon before Spike's got her on top of that table in the Box.  Perhaps Sparky had thoughts of consolation!sex with Anya in Where the Wild Things Are, but the chip was sounding alarms deep in his cerebral cortex, subconsciously.  But two years later and all of a sudden the chip goes silent, and it's Spankya time, baby!  

I guess the only other possibility would be Dawn, since she's actually just some well-disguised green energy, right?

Quote

CHIP CIRCUIT #1:  Dude, why is the vampire pushing up against that green light?  What's up with that?

CHIP CIRCUIT #2:  Beats me.  But the light isn't human, so it's not our business, right?

CHIP CIRCUIT #1:  Yeah.  I mean, the blonde demon spends a lot of time around the green light, so maybe she gave him a recommendation or something, I don't know.

CHIP CIRCUIT #2:  As long as it keeps him away from the kid in the basement, I guess it's all good, right?

CHIP CIRCUIT #1:  Yeah, I suppose.  (beat)  I did kind of enjoy when he tried pushing up against the kid, though.  I mean, we zapped him really good that time.  I don't think I've ever heard the vampire scream like that.

CHIP CIRCUIT #2 (laughs):  Hell, yeah, that was awesome.  I didn't even know he could scream that loud.  We rule, dude!

CHIP CIRCUIT #1:  Yeah.  (beat) You know what was weird, though?  The basement kid was screaming, too.  Well, technically moaning, but still.

CHIP CIRCUIT #2:  Yeah, that was weird.  Do you think they put one of us in the kid, too?

CHIP CIRCUIT #1:  Why? He's human, what would be the point?

CHIP CIRCUIT #2:  Hell if I know.  Maybe they just had some extras laying around or something?
CHIP CIRCUIT #1:  Ehh.  Who knows, they never tell us anything.  You know that, bro.

CHIP CIRCUIT #2:  Yeah, we're the ones doing all the work, and they leave us in the dark, as usual. (Calling, sarcastically)  Thanks a lot, guys!  Way to keep us in the loop!

CHIP CIRCUIT #1:  Eh, whatever.  This is giving ME a headache, now.  I'm gonna recharge for a few cycles.  Wake #3 to cover for me, will you?

CHIP CIRCUIT #2:  Okay.  Catch you later.

To quote Xander in Nightmares:  I'm sick.  I know it.  🙃

ETA: Is this why Spike keeps Clem around?  Not so much for the Knight Rider marathons, but "any demonic port in a storm"?  Huh.

ETAA:  This would be a good time to work in a Meet Dave reference, I suppose.  But, despite Marc Blucas being in it, I've never actually seen the film.  (Who did?)  And so it goes.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Halting Hex

[Loandbehold]

9 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Can Spike, while chipped, actually have sex with Xander? (Or any human?)  I mean, unless he's a pure bottom and only receives.  Is the chip capable of distinguishing between Spike slamming Xander up against a wall, and Spike, er, slamming into Xander?

The only answer I have is from Fool for Love where Spike tells Buffy (pre Demon tan phase or whatever Tara called it) that the chip allow him to come close to hitting her b/c it knows he had no intention of actually carrying through with it. Contrast that w/ when in season 4 the chip goes off when Spike just points the flare gun at Xander. So, my take would be that if he didn't intend to hurt Xander when he slammed him against the wall, the chip would be all "that's cool, carry on" then sit back w/ some popcorn and enjoy the show. 

[Halting Hex]

How tf does a chip read intent, exactly?  I mean, "give it up for American chipsmanship", to quote Xander, but wow.

No wonder Maggie didn't leave any room in the budget for live music at Lowell House's parties, as discussed wrt The Initiative.  Forrest is lucky he could afford to pick up salsa for the party platters, at this rate.

And forget about Warren missing a chance to make $$$ off of the incredibly-realistic sexbots.  Whoever came up with mind-reading chips needs to get out of government work and take his talents to South Beach.  (Or wherever you go to get paid for tech work in the private sector.  Probably not South Beach, actually.  [Alas?])

Edited May 27, 2020 by Halting Hex

[Joe Hellandback]

On 5/23/2020 at 4:18 PM, Halting Hex said:

How tf does a chip read intent, exactly?  I mean, "give it up for American chipsmanship", to quote Xander, but wow.

No wonder Maggie didn't leave any room in the budget for live music at Lowell House's parties, as discussed wrt The Initiative.  Forrest is lucky he could afford to pick up salsa for the party platters, at this rate.

And forget about Warren missing a chance to make $$$ off of the incredibly-realistic sexbots.  Whoever came up with mind-reading chips needs to get out government work and take his talents to South Beach.  (Or wherever you go to get paid for tech work in the private sector.  Probably not South Beach actually.  [Alas?])

Yeah, like the old WW ep, why do the villains waste their time kidnapping scientists when they can make these;

Boy, no one can smile like Lynda!

I figure that Warren was scared he couldn't get them right so that they would eventually disobey him like April did. 

[Hava]

I am watching the show for the first time, and I'm basically stuck at the beginning of season 7 because I find Spike as a main character tedious. Spike as a minor character was great, and James Marsters is charming as hell. But I'm sad to say that I probably won't finish the show because of Spike. I'll probably just start back at season 1 again. 

Edited September 14 by Hava

[Halting Hex]

IMO, you're not missing much.  Details below, albeit still almost without spoilers, just in case.

Spoiler

The only two from S7 that I keep in my permanent collection are 7.06 (a comedy call-back to earlier seasons) and 7.13 (Willow works through her issues).  Spike has a relatively minor role in both (he and Buffy are the C-plot in 7.13, and he has a delightfully rough go of it), so it's tolerable.

(Albeit 7.13 does have both character and logic holes, so appreciation may vary for those who don't crave Willow-centric eps, I allow.)

Absolute eps to avoid are 7.09 and 7.17, which give us waaaaaay too much Spike, as well as other eps that suck for different reasons.  (I consider 7.22 the absolute worst of the series.) 7.05 is pretty good for the first half, but ultimately fails its promise. 7.07 is effectively moody, but is followed by a 4-part bore-fest that renders that setup entirely pointless.

And there is ONE good scene in 7.19.  Yes, we're reduced to "one good scene" as praise.