Season 6 Speculation WITH Spoilers (UK)

[Ravenya003]

Ok.. I re watched this episode and the scene between to two of them after her break up phone call was very electric. She was upset because she just broke things off with Henry but Branson was very intense here. He rushes to her, holding his hands between them to comfort her. I mean anyone who walked into that moment of them standing so close like that would have thought something was going on between the two. If I'm being honest, it is such a weird scene for them to have if Mary/Talbot are end game. I made my hubby watch it for his opinion and he said the same thing even though he doesn't watch the show at all. I truly have no idea where they are going with this.

 

Gah, this! When I first watched that scene I grabbed the sides of my chair because I honestly thought: "Oh my God, it's happening!" The way his voice cracked when he said "you're frightened of getting hurt again", and how he never actually said Talbot by name, only "the man who's right for you." Taken out of context, you'd totally assume he was talking about himself. Even taken in context, there's a strange amount of ambiguity there. It's just so baffling if it's meant to be accidental. 

 

But then, that's how shipping mentality works. I've seen it happen so many times that a pairing's popularity is usually inverse to the writer's intentions, simply because viewers are drawn to what unfolds organically. (See for example how much people preferred Felicity/Oliver to Oliver/Laurel on Arrow simply BECAUSE it wasn't what the writers were pushing - and yet the moment the writers did start writing Oliver/Felicity as a romantic couple in season three, a lot of shippers lost interest). 

 

If Fellowes WAS trying to make Tom/Mary happen by giving them all the usual romantic sign-posts, I probably wouldn't be as engaged as I am without them. 

 

So at this point I'm 99% sure we're all going to end up with egg on our faces, but right now that 1% chance isn't letting me go. And it's not the end of the world if it doesn't happen. I'm not that invested, and I'll still be able to appreciate the fact that Mary/Tom's relationship has been the most important one of the season. 

Edited November 5, 2015 by Ravenya003

[skyways]

I agree with all of you. The Mary ending will be predictable - so obvious it is that Henry will be who we expect him to be.

[RedWolf]

I still can't give up hope that Brary is endgame, but will not be too disappointed if it doesn't happen as it seems likely that Mary will end up with Talbot.

 

I just want to say to everyone on this board that no matter what happens on Sunday, no matter who is right or wrong, that this is the nicest and best boards I have ever posted to and you all have brought up very good points.

[ZoloftBlob]

I love you too, Redwolf, but I am saving myself for Tom Brady. One day he'll realize I'm here for him.... Ready to watch him shower and scrub but he'll never be clean, no matter how much I watch....

 

More seriously this is a pretty nice board, and when the dinosaurs come through the time portal and eat Robert while the Abbey burns this Sunday, I will be watching the boards here. I can't wait to see everyone react as Matthew steps out of the newly installed shower and asks Mary to come join him and Tom Brady....

 

*I don't actually have insider info :D

[MissLucas]

More seriously this is a pretty nice board, and when the dinosaurs come through the time portal and eat Robert while the Abbey burns this Sunday, I will be watching the boards here. I can't wait to see everyone react as Matthew steps out of the newly installed shower and asks Mary to come join him and Tom Brady....

I demand spoiler tags!

 

Seriously, I'll dread the DA withdrawal once it's over - that will be worse than any surprise ending Sir Julian's going to throw our way.

[SusanSunflower]

yes, I was always surprised by the number of fights Mary and Matthew didn't have .... see also the remarkable lack of serious confrontation between Matthew and Robert ... If I had been Matthew, sparks would have flown and voices would have been raised ... nuf. 

[Andorra]

I still can't give up hope that Brary is endgame, but will not be too disappointed if it doesn't happen as it seems likely that Mary will end up with Talbot.

 

I just want to say to everyone on this board that no matter what happens on Sunday, no matter who is right or wrong, that this is the nicest and best boards I have ever posted to and you all have brought up very good points.

 

 

I absolutely agree on both points! This board is so nice! I will miss these discussions here very much. 

[abbyzenn]

As much as we give JF grief for his poor writing he has certainly made us want the next episode.  Whether we'll be happy after is another story.

 

I'm most curious as to who/why Tom is yelling at someone.  No way is it a member of the family.  Thomas seems like the most obvious choice.  I'd like it to be Larry Gray but can't imagine why Larry Gray would be in Tom's office (or for that matter why would Thomas?)

 

I think Mary looks stunned in the scene where Edith is telling her off - stunned not because Edith is finally do it but because she has no idea what Edith is upset about.  In last week's episode when Mary says something like "can't Bertie just be coming to London to see you" I didn't think she said it to be mean or catty although Edith certainly took it that way.   

[skyways]

Actually I've not been watching. I lost interest last season. The boards are more entertaining. I've realized it's all non-sense and I seriously don't have any more interest in any of them. I used to really like Mary but I'm bored with her act. Dockery has not been given many sides to her since season 3 so I don't enjoy her performances anymore as her expressions all seem too familiar? similar? monotonous? I don't have the right word.

[DianeDobbler]

I agree that Mary looked shocked/stunned in the scene where Edith is telling her off, and I have speculation as to why. Last season, Mary's continued shots at Edith were often vicious - I thought overstated (in the script) and over directed (I have faith in Dockery that she doesn't put more acid on a line to Carmichael than she's told the scene requires). This season, Mary has, very occasionally, is my impression, said some things, but very half-heartedly. And so my theory is -Edith may still be hearing them the same way, and not be picking up that Mary's tone has become a bit more respectful. Mary said to Edith "Aren't you a good enough reason" for Bertie to go to the race. Her tone was genuine - sort of "Why wouldn't you be a good enough reason -he obviously likes you a great deal." I imagine it will come out that after all these years, Edith still hears that sort of thing from Mary as catty and superior, with a subtext of "You obviously AREN'T a good enough reason." I think simultaneously, Edith is very sensitive and wary about Marigold and about what Mary's judgment might be. Mary was awfully catty and insensitive when Michael disappeared, and I suspect from EDITH's point of view, if Mary found out about Marigold, Edith would be in for insensitive remarks about how Edith was abandoned with an illegitimate child and her family had to rescue her. I think that will NOT be Mary's attitude, not even close, but Edith thinks it would be. I suspect Edith's anger at Mary in the preview has something to do with a misunderstanding or anticipated misunderstanding/assumption about Mary and Marigold, will finally get the antipathy between the sisters out in the open at a time when both are grown-up enough to make some sort of amends/develop greater respect. Mary says things she doesn't mean, or so she says, and I think a great deal of what she said to Edith was habit, but Edith took it to heart, and has built up this sense over the years that Mary has contempt for her, even after Mary has evolved out of her catty side (which she has, quite a bit, and not just as regards Edith).

 

Phew.

 

Also wanted to note how much weight Maggie Smith has lost. It appears to me to be a healthy weight loss. I remember noticing in the middle of Downton's run that Maggie Smith had become pretty stout, and that may have impacted how she moves (lots of sitting). She uses a cane (or Violet does), but she's a lot more streamlined, and just seems more comfortable moving, and more comfortable in her costumes.

[DeccaMitford]

 

Mary says things she doesn't mean, or so she says, and I think a great deal of what she said to Edith was habit, but Edith took it to heart, and has built up this sense over the years that Mary has contempt for her, even after Mary has evolved out of her catty side (which she has, quite a bit, and not just as regards Edith).

 

I think this is true - and it's one of the (few) elements of the show that I find actually pretty realistically done. There are a couple of lines that, to me at least, point to Fellowes attempting to show how this way of life sort of stunts people's maturity. Way back in season one, Mary tells Matthew that women like her don't really have lives, they're just in waiting rooms until they get married. I remember a comment from Fellowes in the commentary track for Gosford Park, where he said he wanted to highlight how women of that class faced an incredible amount of pressure to live in the manner they'd been taught to live, but weren't given the resources to do so in the way of education or money or encouragement to forge their own lives. So they tended to make immature decisions.

Mary and Edith are both in their 30s, and they are both just in the last few years starting to imagine purposes for their lives other than "get married." Living at home, constantly in each others company and with their parents and the same servants who have known them since they were children, probably led them to reproduce childish dynamics well into adulthood. Full disclosure: I'm a middle child, and have an older sibling who's very much a Mary. When we were teenagers our mother sometimes thought we would never be able to get along; my brother would bully me mostly out of boredom, I became oversensitive and bristled at everything he said, whether it was meant to be cruel or not. But we both went to college, and saw more of the world, and made other friends, and got jobs, and we have a great relationship now. We do have to work at it though, and it can be an effort not to fall into old patterns when we see each other for an extended visit. I expect that if Mary and Edith had each gone to university and gotten a job and her own place, regardless of whether that came with a husband, they'd get along fine. I really think this is the story Fellowes is trying to tell, and that he is trying to critique this way of life to a real extent, but he's just not a very organized writer, and he gets distracted by his own nostalgia. So the critique doesn't come through. It came through fine in Gosford Park, probably because there were several other people at the helm.

I think when either Mary or Edith lose their concentration, usually because something has shocked them, they can be loving towards each other: witness Edith running after Mary and apparently holding her hand in the car crash scene. And I think Mary has gotten a bit better, though I can't really fault Edith for not seeing it. I suspect that there's a huge, unacknowledged part of Mary that would be devastated if Edith got married and left the Abbey forever, if only because it would be a change to the way things have always been. If Mary's story this season is about letting go of the past, I think her relationship with her sister has to be a part of it. I think we'll have to see if she can let go of the old way of relating to Edith, before we see her move on romantically, either with Talbot or Tom or anyone else.

The one ending for Mary that would actually surprise and impress me at this point would be if she ended up alone - if she realized that after Matthew, Downton was her great love and taking care of it was enough to keep her happy, even if everyone else moved on. But Fellowes is ultimately a very sentimental writer, so who knows.

[SilverLining78]

Hi everyone

I am joining this forum after reading everything you guys write for the past week or so. I'm not typically a forum person, but I have become unhealthily obsessed with Downtown since series 6. Last time I had a phase of being so invested was when series 2 came out and all the Matthew/Mary/Lavinia Angst happened ;-)

I'm a confessed Brary shipper and like other people here had my highs and very deep lows on the ride!

 

Just wanted to share my (crumbling) Henry Talbot theory with you all :-)

Before episode 7 I was convinced that Talbot was going to reveal himself as a massive twat eventually, and all this boyish eager charm was just a smokescreen and Tom's 'fangirling' over him just a distraction before Fellowes reveals that Talbot is just an opportunist. I based this on the fact that Talbot seems to know everything about Mary from Evelyn Napier, and in the pub scene in episode 5 he made a reference regarding Mary being La Belle Dame sans Merci, who, if you know the poem by Keats, is the fairly queen who lures her suitors into the otherworld where they can't ever return from = man eating vulture. So I wondered if Talbot knew about the whole Pamuk story from Napier (who knows of it) and thinks Mary to be someone he could catch with good looks and sexual attraction.

 

Now after episode 7 I am not so sure - he still is quite pushy and stalkerish, but seems genuine enough otherwise...

 

I thought maybe Napier's dark look at Mary after the dinner scene in episode 6 was telling that he was not infatuated anymore but had in fact joined the anti Mary club…and in the end it would be revealed that Mary had become a victim instead of the aloof and in control femme fatale she has been so far with everyone but Matthew (and Tom).

 

Now I am not sure if Fellowes is actually that clever…I still don't think Mary will end up with Talbot in the very end, as that would be beyond boring. What are they then going to do in the CS? Taking the pigs for a walk together?

If they marry in episode 8, then they will split up in the CS. If Mary will get it together with Tom is another question...

 

I think they can't be endgame. Having watched a few interviews with uncle Julian, I am convinced that, love for soap opera or not, he is someone who understands and likes complexity. So there will be a spanner in the works!

 

If not, someone needs to take the Oscar he won for Gosford Park away from uncle Julian and tell him he needs to up his game if he wants it back :-)

 

 

I meant queen of the fairies, not fairly queen! ;-)

 

And when I say they can't be endgame I mean Mary/Talbot. I am hoping for Brary!

[Nellie]

Looking at it objectively and from all angles, I don't see how a marriage between Mary and Henry would work. I've really tried hard to remove my shipper goggles on this one.

1. The estate is Mary's priority. She has said it countless times and I don't see her leaving it to follow Henry around as he is racing cars. Every time he gets into a race car, she would experience the same level of anxiety and fear as she did before. I can't imagine her suddenly feeling supportive and excited about car racing. So, that won't work.

2. Talbot loves racing cars... It has been his life. Sure, he almost offered to give it up for Mary but she tells him not to. In the end, would he really give up something he is that passionate about?? Would he even be happy? And to do what at Downton, exactly?? Live off Mary?? Work in Tom's car shop?? Be a constant 3rd wheel to BFF's Mary and Tom, who will always be together, since they are in fact, running the estate together and even more so since Robert has been ill. That scenario doesn't work either.

There is no way that Mary and Henry could have a happy ending that makes any amount of sense. Because from both of those scenarios, it seems that either one or the other will be quite unhappy. One of them would have to give up something that is entirely too important to them. Again, trying to see things objectively.

Someone tell me if I am wrong?? I'm just trying to think this whole thing through by considering every angle. I think maybe Mary does not marry Henry? She will either marry Tom or one of her former suitors will return AGAIN like Evelyn or Charles (ok, probably not Charles.) Or she will end up alone (more likely.). Honestly, I don't know.

Maybe we end episode 8 with the possibility of her marrying Henry but it doesn't happen as we find out in the CS.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Nellie

[Nellie]

Ok, the goggles are back on. Ha!

Henry may only serve as a plot device that allows the audience to see that, yes, Mary has changed and that she would "marry down" so to speak. BUT, they needed something that would push Mary away from Henry. So, what do they do? They make him a race care driver, knowing that she would never be able to see past the danger that's involved mostly because of what happened to Matthew.

So, here we are, down the road during the CS. JF has already given the audience a view of a less snobby Mary and we all see that she would indeed be open to marrying outside of money or aristocracy. So, when she and Tom do get together, they won't be able to say, "Its's out of character. Mary would never marry a former chauffeur!"

Edited November 5, 2015 by Nellie

[RedWolf]

Nellie I agree! Talbot and Mary just don't fit together unless one of them gives up the thing they love.

 

I have been trying to see what have TPTB been trying to tell us by looking at the dialogue, the cinematography, and the music. While doing this these are the questions that kept coming up in my head.

 

Why keep Tom's return a secret if all he is going to do is play matchmaker? Why have him return so early (early enough that Mary hasn't even had time to reply to his last letter) if that is his only SL? Why have Tom return in the same episode that you reintroduce Bertie (Edith's Endgame)? Why does the camera focus in on Mary's face in Tom's return scene? Edith is standing right next to her yet Edith's face is cut out of the frame. Why does Mary constantly touch or try to touch Tom (if you notice her arm is constantly moving towards him when the camera is focused on her face) during that whole scene? Tom didn't need to be there in episode four to drive Mary to the train station (when Anna was miscarrying) they still have Stark as their driver, or was it because he was the only one who could convince her to have Mr. Mason on at Yew Tree Farm. Why start changing Tom and Mary's dynamic this series? Why have them call each other Brother and Sister this series when you could have done it last series before Tom left for America? Why have Tom so invested in Mary's love life this series? Why are Tom's lines so ambiguous when taken out of context? Why constantly show how comfortable and in sync Tom and Mary are if Talbot is the endgame? Why show how Mary takes off her mask with Tom and trusts him enough to show him the real her all the time?

 

Why list Talbot in the main cast if his screen time is only equivalent (so far) to a recurring guest star? Why have him only come in the fourth episode? Why have the music that was used for Gillingham and Blake be played in the background of almost all his scenes with Mary? (I can't remember what played in the background of the break up scene) If he is endgame wouldn't you have composed original music to represent his relationship with Mary? Why is it that when there is a scene with Talbot you have multiple scenes with Tom? Why use Brary as a red herring if you already have cars as a hurdle? Why has Mary never invited Talbot to Downton? Every single time Talbot and Mary have planned to meet it's away from Downton.

 

If Talbot is endgame none of it makes sense. If no one is endgame then most of it still doesn't make sense (like Tom's storyline). If Tom is endgame then to me it makes sense.

[Ruby25]

Tom and Mary ending up together is the only thing that would make sense at this point, given what's been happening onscreen, and most of us agree with that...yet at the same time Fellowes' horrible writing leaves open the possiblity that Mary will be forced by the family to marry Henry and just have to accept that she really did love this guy that nobody watching or at Downton BESIDES Tom thinks would be a good match.

 

Why is it that Tom's right and everyone else is wrong? The only thing that makes sense is if he's blind to his own feelings and overcompensating, but can Fellowes see that? Can he see what makes the most sense in his own writing?

 

We're all skeptical because of what he's done before. Do we have any spoilers at all for the CS? Because if Episode 8 does end with Mary and Henry marrying or going to be married, I'm not going to lose hope, because something dramatic has to happen in the special, right?

[skyways]

Haha folks be jonesing. Henry it is. You guys are overthinking things and it's hilarious. You forget Fellowes threw in the towel a long time ago. Straightforward and predictable it will be.

[Nellie]

It really will be bizarre to me if it is anything other than a Brary ending. I've watched shows where my favorite couples don't get together and I've been okay with it. You can typically see that it's not going to happen beforehand anyway. But, this show has perplexed me like no other show has. Too be honest, I have always been fine with them not getting together and left as just good friends but this season is bugging me so bad because I JUST DON'T GET IT. I probably could've been invested in and on board with Mary and Henry, if the writer's given me the opportunity to do so but instead we have fed so many unnecessary scenes between Tom and Mary, that it makes it hard to see around them. TPTB haven't given any of us a chance to care about Mary and Henry, so why should we?

That time spent could've been used toward a storyline for Tom or towards developing a believable love story for Mary and Henry. I love Tom's character but if the character is sacrificied and neutered this series so that his sole purpose serves only to be Mary's matchmaking sidekick... I'm going to be pissed. I would rather him have stayed in America and maybe come home on the CS (like Rose) with all the news of his successes and maybe even a nice American girl on his arm.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Nellie

[Brn2bwild]

The only CS spoilers that I've seen are that Rose comes back and photos of Tom and Mary having what is characterized as a "very serious" conversation

[Nellie]

Haha folks be jonesing. Henry it is. You guys are overthinking things and it's hilarious. You forget Fellowes threw in the towel a long time ago. Straightforward and predictable it will be.

Well, this is a "speculation"discussion thread right??

Look, I'm all for hearing logical reasons that it will be Henry... Because then I wouldn't be so annoyed. If it is straightforward and predictable then I hope JF figures out a way to make it believable. If it makes sense (and right now it doesn't,) then that's all I care about. Oh, and I also care that Tom's whole SL this series isn't to be Mary and Talbot's third wheel .

The only CS spoilers that I've seen are that Rose comes back and photos of Tom and Mary having what is characterized as a "very serious" conversation

The only CS spoilers that I've seen are that Rose comes back and photos of Tom and Mary having what is characterized as a "very serious" conversation

I've only heard that Rose is coming back. Where did you find the photos? Can you share? Edited November 6, 2015 by Nellie

[Brn2bwild]

Here is the link to the article with the "serious moment" between Tom and Mary.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/11744735/Filming-begins-on-Downton-Abbey-Christmas-special.html

[Sisygambis]

It really will be bizarre to me if it is anything other than a Brary ending. I've watched shows where my favorite couples don't get together and I've been okay with it. You can typically see that it's not going to happen beforehand anyway. But, this show has perplexed me like no other show has. Too be honest, I have always been fine with them not getting together and left as just good friends but this season is bugging me so bad because I JUST DON'T GET IT. I probably could've been invested in and on board with Mary and Henry, if the writer's given me the opportunity to do so but instead we have fed so many unnecessary scenes between Tom and Mary, that it makes it hard to see around them. TPTB haven't given any of us a chance to care about Mary and Henry, so why should we?

 

I feel the same way!  From season 4 until Tom returned, my ideal ending was Mary and Tom as platonic life bros, raising their children together and running Downton.  But now I have no idea how I'm supposed to feel, because Mary and Tom ending together is the only thing that seems to make emotional sense. 

 

As everyone has been talking about, Tom's only story this season has been his relationship with Mary, and I feel like the emotional aspects of Mary's story have all involved conversations with Tom. Tying the characters up so close and then having nothing come of it is a strange narrative choice.  If this were a novel, I'd throw it across the room in frustration.

[Andorra]

The pictures in the article that show Tom and Mary in the street are from Episode 8. It's when they find out about Lord Hexam dying in Tangier and we know that this will happen on Sunday.

 

This year they filmed Episode 7,8 and the CS in one block, so that we wouldn't be able to figure out what was going to happen. They were very careful. 

 

I completely agree with everyone who sees Brary as the much better storyline, than Henry, but I'm pretty sure it is not meant to be and will go as it was signposted. I think Henry will be the new Mr. Mary even though he doesn't care for Downton, he doesn't care for George, he has a job she hates (which he will probably give up for her) and even though they seem to have no apparent emotional connection at all.

 

On another board someone wrote that Talbot is Julian Fellows' trying to be artistic: Bringing Mary full circle by having to admit to her fears or something like that.

 

That's probably it. It's sad that it was written so badly and that he sacrificed Tom's character to make it happen. I enjoyed the many, beautiful scenes between Tom and Mary that we got, but it would have been better to give him beautiful scenes with his own love interest and Mary with Henry. Then there wouldn't be so many people who would have preferred Tom over Talbot!

[Ruby25]

I think you guys are probably right, but boy was this badly written if that's the case. I mean, really, really bad. If even neutral viewers can see that it's been all about Tom and Mary's relationship this year, why on earth should we root for Mary and Talbot? She doesn't even seem to like this guy that much!

 

I think if we had someone downstairs or in the family just offhandedly mention Mary and Tom acting as a couple or something, even as a joke, I might feel better thinking it would happen, because he always goes with what's been verbalized instead of shown. Which is ridiculous when you think about it, because what's been shown is how obviously close Tom and Mary are and how they would seem to be making their way towards each other by the finale. But nope, because no one has outright said it, we can't believe what we're seeing. Isn't that nuts?

[Brn2bwild]

The pictures in the article that show Tom and Mary in the street are from Episode 8. It's when they find out about Lord Hexam dying in Tangier and we know that this will happen on Sunday.

 

This year they filmed Episode 7,8 and the CS in one block, so that we wouldn't be able to figure out what was going to happen. They were very careful.

 

That just leads to the question of why they had to be so careful, if the "obvious" path of Mary-Henry were the end game.

[saki]

I agree that Mary looked shocked/stunned in the scene where Edith is telling her off, and I have speculation as to why. Last season, Mary's continued shots at Edith were often vicious - I thought overstated (in the script) and over directed (I have faith in Dockery that she doesn't put more acid on a line to Carmichael than she's told the scene requires). This season, Mary has, very occasionally, is my impression, said some things, but very half-heartedly. 

 

I feel like Michelle Dockery increasingly says everything half-heartedly!  I actually think this is part of why none of the suitors have really worked - although there have been moments, like the pigs with Blake and (for me) her genuine concern for Talbot in this last episode.

 

I do think Tom and Mary have been portrayed as close but, for me, a romantic relationship would still be really weird - I can imagine Tom and Mary hugging but I can't see them kissing, they just haven't been shown to have that kind of spark.  

 

I think, also, for me I would find it a bit sad if Tom's ending involved him just completely assimilated into Downton - what about his family, does he not want Sybbie to know them at all?  Does Ireland not matter to him at all now?  

 

I also think that it would be a bit sad (though less so) if Mary's world started and ended with the estate and she had nothing else in her life.

[sunflower]

 

That just leads to the question of why they had to be so careful, if the "obvious" path of Mary-Henry were the end game.

 

Well, let's ask ourselves, are most fans of DA casual or board-centric?  I have seen on other boards, certain people say that fans overthink.  

 

The worst thing about Brary not happening is what others have said, the sad misuse of Tom.  I really don't get why they didn't have him come back with an American wife.  IMO, that would've been the best story for him, non-Brary-wise.  It'd be a story for up and downstairs with Carson complaining, the family having difficulty with her, but on a lesser scale then Bunting.  They'd all come together in the end somehow.  Honestly, I'd prefer it because it would mean JF cared about Tom as an individual character, as opposed to Tom's Mary-centric scenes with a Talbot ending.  It's just so lame.  It seems Tom is a stalker of both Henry and Mary.  It's like, unless dude is secretly in love with Mary, may I suggest getting a life?  

 

I mean, the question is why does Tom care so much?  I don't see him investing this much in Edith's love life.

Edited November 6, 2015 by sunflower

[Andorra]

The only thing that will make me happy about Talbot/Mary is, that my hopes will be finally crushed and I won't be able to get them up again before Christmas. No matter what I read about next episode my brain always tells me: "Mary is going to marry Talbot. It's clear. Give it up. Why does it matter to you so much? Be cool." and my heart tells me: "Noooooooooo!!! They're just fooling us! They plan the biggest surprise since Sybil's death!!! They can't destroy my ship!!!! Henry and Mary are so lame and Mary and Tom are so perfect! How can they be so perfect all the sudden? I never wanted that, but now I want it!!!"

 

Who would have thought that I would ever get so emotionally invovled in Mary and Tom? I certainly would never had thought so! Argh!!

[MissLucas]

Overthinking is the very definition of fandom - and I've seen Brary pop up in other places (the Guardian for example where it has grown stronger amidst an enormous amount of hilarious snark). I'm not emotionally involved with Mary and Tom but it is the narrative with the most compelling logic to me. Second place takes not Mary and Henry but Mary and Downton. This would be an interesting choice but I don't see it happening - the need for romantically tidying up things for the main character (and I've always considered Mary the main character) is too strong.

Henry could have worked had he been written differently and had Tom been getting his own plot. Sadly I think no matter what resolution will get, it will feel rushed. TPTB have been so busy with trying to create smoke-screens in order to hide the end that they forgot to create a plots moving towards that resolution progressing at a natural pace (or progressing at all). If Brary's end-game then Tom must be about to internally implode with repressed feelings; if Henry's endgame then he needs a road to Damascus moment right now that makes him realize that he has secretly dreamed all his life of becoming a country squire. Or Mary falls from her horse and bumps her head, resulting in a major personality change that leads her to embrace the life of a fasionable socialite who follows her lover/husband across the continent to all the major race tracks.

We still got the time-jump towards the CS to deal with some of these issues - but that means we would not see some fairly important developments (which has happened before). Once again it all comes down to problematic pacing.

[skyways]

One can speculate and over-think at the same time. The Tom character has not been taken seriously since Season 3 so is there any good reason why Fellowes shouldn't throw him overboard again?

Mary has nobody to confide in so Tom character is the obvious choice. She can't talk fully with Anna (at least she's not written to confide everything in her) about whatever she's going through concerning Talbot.

I found that scene with Mary and Tom after the phone call too over-wrought and like some said above unnecessary (I heard so much about it so I looked for it). The lines from Tom were horrible and out of place. The emotions were un-called for. They didn't even know the guy who died that well to warrant such display. I interpreted it all as bad directing. It was as if Matthew had died all over again and yet when did the new suitor reach that status???

Mind you while I agree that the progression of this so-called romance is jumbled and confusing and requires A LOT of seeing things that are not there, it is most likely (again like someone said above) a way to let Mary reconcile with Matthew's death ( since we KNOW for a fact that she has been traumatized since he died -no dancing, no fashion shows, no new looks, no flirting, talking of nothing except Matthew, no nothing. And now she's ready to face the world and BAM!, a car racer appears to remind her of ALL her fears..... lol this is laughable at best).

[Nellie]

I'm beginning to see why Allen thinks Tom's ending sucks. It's because the way it's going, he only serves to move Mary and Henry forward. I don't blame him for feeling frustrated. LAME!

If Brary isn't endgame, which is most likely the case, then I hope Mary/Henry get together in episode 8. I'm just over it. If Mary and Henry is happening then that's fine (bizarre, but fine) and I want the relationship to be a done deal and not left open ended or with a cliff hanger, when the episode 8 ends. That way, we can move past that storyline and focus on other character's stories in the CS, before it all ends. Maybe (fingers crossed) that will allow us to see some semblance of an satisfying storyline for Tom. He doesn't even have to be paired off with anyone.. I don't mind Tom alone however I would love a ending that feels satisfying to some extent.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Nellie

[ZoloftBlob]

 

since we KNOW for a fact that she has been traumatized since he died -no dancing, no fashion shows, no new looks, no flirting, talking of nothing except Matthew, no nothing.

 

Are we watching the same show where she hasn't spoken his name in years, was openly flirting with a gaggle of men declaring "let the games begin" on the merry chase to catch her as the prize and her delightful new hair style that took up two episodes of time in getting?

[MissLucas]

Mary has nobody to confide in so Tom character is the obvious choice. She can't talk fully with Anna (at least she's not written to confide everything in her) about whatever she's going through concerning Talbot.

Mary did just fine with Anna as confidante past seasons - including sending her on an errand Tom would most definitely not have been willing to perform. But even if that's the reason JF brought Tom back, why foist him on almost any scene Mary has with Henry? He was a confidante last season without accompanying Mary and Gilingham on their little trip - which present Tom would totally do. Having Tom around all time as some sort of Greek choir is an odd choice to say the least - normally the only male character allowed to be that intrusive is the heroine's gay bff. (Not even -real- brothers are normally written that way.)

[photo fox]

I think JF brought Tom back from America because the actor and the character are popular, but didn't really have a plan for what to do with him.  If he wasn't willing to write a love story for Tom (and barring the "Brary" that some fans are seeing, he hasn't), what other current stories could Tom be in?  He has no friends, no interaction with the downstairs crowd, even his work is on the estate.  Maybe that's why he's so desperate for Mary and Henry to get together - so that he has a friend on the property!

 

That's what makes me find the prospect of "Brary" so dreary, to be honest.  If Tom would end up with Mary, that will be his life.  That's so depressing to me, when I think back to the person Tom was when we first met him.  Everyone else would be getting their original "happy ending":

 

• DC, Robert, Cora: Downton secured for future generations.
• Mary: caretaker of Downton, with her son as heir
• Edith: independent and married to wealthy nobleman
• Matthew: married to Mary, produced the heir
• Sybil: found love and passion as a nurse
• Banna: married and living independently
• Carson and Hughes: married and doing whatever
• Patmore: B&B
• Molesley: school thing
• Daisy: whatever her deal is
• etc....

 

Only Tom is forced to surrender all of his youthful hopes and dreams.

 

I realize we often change our perspectives as we age, and give up on ideas we used to have.  But to have Tom be the ONLY character on this show who is forced to do that is just too much.  Especially considering he's the only real anti-establishment character in the main cast.  So he must abandon his ideals and ensconce himself in the aristocracy to be "happy".  Sigh....

 

tl;dr

 

Even though I really don't want "Brary", I almost wish I could ship it just so I could tell myself that JF cared enough about the character that he's been setting up some long-range story for him.  Sadly, I think he just doesn't care about the character that much, and hasn't since Sybil died (if then).

[skyways]

LOL..........Zoloftbob it was sarcasm!!!  I was trying to point out that Mary's over dramatised shock came from nowhere.

 

I think JF brought Tom back from America because the actor and the character are popular, but didn't really have a plan for what to do with him.

 

Alan Leech keeps making himself available to be 'used' by Fellowes in his story. He should have done like Stevens or 'Sybil' (sorry I don't remember her real name) and realistically left. So it's up to Fellowes to write for him how he sees fit (that is if he cares that much how popular the character is).

Edited November 6, 2015 by skyways

[Nellie]

I think JF brought Tom back from America because the actor and the character are popular, but didn't really have a plan for what to do with him.  If he wasn't willing to write a love story for Tom (and barring the "Brary" that some fans are seeing, he hasn't), what other current stories could Tom be in?  He has no friends, no interaction with the downstairs crowd, even his work is on the estate.  Maybe that's why he's so desperate for Mary and Henry to get together - so that he has a friend on the property!

Good point!

[Nellie]

Even though I really don't want "Brary", I almost wish I could ship it just so I could tell myself that JF cared enough about the character that he's been setting up some long-range story for him. Sadly, I think he just doesn't care about the character that much, and hasn't since Sybil died (if then).

Lol. Even if you did ship it, like others, including myself... It would almost make it worse for you because you be watching thinking "wth??, maybe there are going there??" And getting a small glimmer of hope that something may happen only to have your hopes go down the toilet. You would realize sadly, like we probably will, that not only did Tom get screwed by not having a respectable storyline but ALSO that your ship also sank to the bottom of the ocean. Edited November 6, 2015 by Nellie

[ZoloftBlob]

LOL..........Zoloftbob it was sarcasm!!!  I was trying to point out that Mary's over dramatised shock came from nowhere.

 

Woosh! That went right over my head! :D

 

I was like "wtf? When did Mary throw herself on Matthew's grave and cry to the darkening rain clouds that she'd never love again???"

 

Skyways, I can't blame Leech for wanting a paycheck, but I see your point. And I remind myself when it comes up that holding Mary's purse for her dates was probably how Matthew would have ended up.

[Andorra]

If Brary isn't endgame, which is most likely the case, then I hope Mary/Henry get together in episode 8. I'm just over it. If Mary and Henry is happening then that's fine (bizarre, but fine) and I want the relationship to be a done deal and not left open ended or with a cliff hanger, when the episode 8 ends. That way, we can move past that storyline and focus on other character's stories in the CS, before it all ends. 

 

I agree, I really hope that it will be clear on Sunday, because I really don't want my ship to crash on Christmas eve. Also if Mary's storyline is out of the way, I would have hope that Tom would at least get SOME storyline besides pushing Mary into the arms of Talbot. 

 

 

I think JF brought Tom back from America because the actor and the character are popular, but didn't really have a plan for what to do with him.  If he wasn't willing to write a love story for Tom (and barring the "Brary" that some fans are seeing, he hasn't), what other current stories could Tom be in?  He has no friends, no interaction with the downstairs crowd, even his work is on the estate.  Maybe that's why he's so desperate for Mary and Henry to get together - so that he has a friend on the property!

 

But why in heaven did Julian Fellows not write a love story for Tom? He had season after season to do it. Instead he wrote a zillion other unnecessary and unconvincing romances, but nothing for Tom. I never believed Sarah Bunting was meant as a real love interest, because Tom looked more scared than enchanted whenever she came near and the same goes for Edna. 

And why didn't Julian Fellows let him come home from America with a wife if he didn't want to write yet another romance??

 

Also it is so weird that he Matthewfied Tom completely. Why this transformation into a second Matthew if he didn't intend him to be Mary's endgame? He could have given him so many other things to do, it wouldn't need much imagination? He could have gone into politics and piss off Robert and the Dowager, or he could have written for Edith's magazine. And he could have gotten a nice love interest. What would have been difficult about that? 

 

But you know what I really hate? Allen Leech has always been so gracious about the show. He has been the busiest promoter of the show in the last years. And in the Award season, when he was in the US, promoting "The Imitation Game" there wasn't one TV show, nor Radio interview nor red carpet interview where he didn't mention Downton and promoted the show along with his movie. And he was on every red carpet of the Award season save the Oscar. 

 

And his thank you was that he first was forced to pretend being unemployed for almost a year, getting no promotion at all, giving no interviews, was not included the buzz for the last season of Downton, wasn't even on the picture and then didn't even get a decent storyline! I would be so pissed if I was Allen Leech!

 

But now he has said, that he will be in the US along with some other Downton stars in December promoting the new season there. I'm really surprised? Obviously they won't conceal Tom coming back in the US? I wonder if he will be on the promotional picture for the series over there?

 

I think he must be too good to be true, to still keep promoting this show?!

[Ravenya003]

The emotions were un-called for. They didn't even know the guy who died that well to warrant such display. I interpreted it all as bad directing. It was as if Matthew had died all over again and yet when did the new suitor reach that status???

 

 

Well, to be fair it was never about the guy that died. It was about the memories his death brought up. That said, people have been asking (including myself) why Tom has been so invested in Mary's love life if he's not in love with her himself, but there is one other possibility: he needs to see her happy and coupled-up in order to reassure himself that one day the same thing will happen to him. 

 

I've reconciled myself to the fact that Tom/Mary is almost certainly not going to happen, though as someone who is currently rewatching all the early seasons, I still think the two of them are one of the best relationships on the show in terms of how they've developed. They're pretty much indifferent to each other, except as "love interest's sister" and "sister's love interest", and now they've got one of the closest relationships on the show. Whatever Fellowes does in the last two episodes, he did at least pull off something pretty special with that.

[Andorra]

Well, to be fair it was never about the guy that died. It was about the memories his death brought up. That said, people have been asking (including myself) why Tom has been so invested in Mary's love life if he's not in love with her himself, but there is one other possibility: he needs to see her happy and coupled-up in order to reassure himself that one day the same thing will happen to him. 

 

I've reconciled myself to the fact that Tom/Mary is almost certainly not going to happen, though as someone who is currently rewatching all the early seasons, I still think the two of them are one of the best relationships on the show in terms of how they've developed. They're pretty much indifferent to each other, except as "love interest's sister" and "sister's love interest", and now they've got one of the closest relationships on the show. Whatever Fellowes does in the last two episodes, he did at least pull off something pretty special with that.

 

 

I had to quote that, because it is exactly what I think. No matter how it ends now, I would have never thought that I would like the relationship between Tom and Mary so much, but it is really nicely developed and certainly the best thing of the last three seasons for me. 

[Cramps]

Either Tom and Mary are end story, or Tom has spent the last few years as the equivalent as "the gay best friend" in a nineties romantic comedy.

[MissLucas]

It's not as if there has been no opportunity to give Tom a story that has nothing to do with Mary and Downton. I remember that he once was portrayed as a bookish type and even worked as a journalist for some time. Ah, if only he knew someone in the publishing business!

In other words: I don't believe Tom languishing around Downton without purpose is due to the showrunner not caring for the character. There's got to be more.

[Andorra]

My theory is that Gareth Neame hates Allen Leech. I have never heard him say anything complimentary about Tom nor about Allen. Maybe it's personal and he sabotages every attempt of Julian Fellows to give Allen something to do? And Allen has a contract and can't out...

 

Okay I'm reaching here. But it is so weird!

[photo fox]

But why in heaven did Julian Fellows not write a love story for Tom? He had season after season to do it. Instead he wrote a zillion other unnecessary and unconvincing romances, but nothing for Tom. I never believed Sarah Bunting was meant as a real love interest, because Tom looked more scared than enchanted whenever she came near and the same goes for Edna. 

And why didn't Julian Fellows let him come home from America with a wife if he didn't want to write yet another romance??

Because JF is a poor showrunner? I totally agree that Tom (and AL, who has been a real trooper with promo, as you mentioned) deserved better story than he's gotten. And I agree there are many interesting stories that could have been told. I'm just not convinced that his lack of non-Mary scenes means anything more than JF doesn't know how to incorporate him into the show.

The character has always been in a weird situation, because he's neither upstairs nor down. Not really. He doesn't work with the downstairs folks because he's "family" from their perspective. But he doesn't really work upstairs either, because outside of the Crawleys, nobody would consider him to be gentry. People in their circle may be nice to him (or not), but he's never going to really be part of their social scene. So he either ends up with no story, a story that is too disconnected from everyone else (Bunting), or shoehorned into other people's stories.

I think it could also have something to do with JF's beliefs about the "system". I don't know much about it, but I've seen a lot of posts that he upholds the idea of the aristocracy, etc. The characters on this show seem to be divided into four groups: those who think the system is just swell (Carson, Crawleys); those who accept it and quietly work within it (Hughes, Bates); those who badmouth it and are quickly dispatched or vilified (Bunting, O'Brien); and Tom. Maybe (consciously or not) JF doesn't think he deserves happiness? Or only if he completely gives over his socialist ideals?

I'm still hoping for something to happen with the editor. He could move to London and pursue a career. Nothing says he and Sybbie couldn't visit Downton frequently. It seems to be an easy trip. He considers Downton home, but that doesn't mean he needs to live there full time. It just seems so claustrophobic.

My other bit of speculation is that I agree with some folks upthread that I think Thomas is going to die. It seems everyone else on the show is going to end coupled up, and Thomas really can't. Not just because of his orientation and the laws of the times, but because there's been no one introduced for him.

[Sisygambis]

It's not as if there has been no opportunity to give Tom a story that has nothing to do with Mary and Downton. I remember that he once was portrayed as a bookish type and even worked as a journalist for some time.

 

There have even been suggestions in the narrative for things for Tom to do!  Isobel suggests he run for town council, and nothing came of that.  Season 5 opens with a new Labour government - this could have been some way to have Tom involved with the local MP, and create some kind of tension/character exploration.

[DianeDobbler]

I feel that Downton IS Mary's true passion and her calling, and that's why she'll end up with Tom, who has become indispensable, and whom she trusts more than anyone else in her life. She's at ease and herself with him.

 

I don't know if it's going in that direction; I just can't imagine not. I, also, thought Tom entering the scene after Mary got off the phone with Henry was electric.

[TheGreenKnight]

My other bit of speculation is that I agree with some folks upthread that I think Thomas is going to die. It seems everyone else on the show is going to end coupled up, and Thomas really can't. Not just because of his orientation and the laws of the times, but because there's been no one introduced for him.

I agree. I just can't believe I've been waiting the whole series to see something happen with Thomas, and the most we ever got was in the series premiere. What a rip-off.

[Ruby25]

Yeah, the character of Thomas was completely wasted on this show. He was played by such a charismatic actor and they never bothered to do anything cool with him aside from that first episode. I remember thinking the whole time that the Anna rape storyline was playing out and he kept trying to find out what was going on with the Bates's through Baxter, that he would find out and decide to team up with Bates to get revenge or something, in classic soap opera style, and it didn't even come to that! Nothing ever happened. That would have been such an easy story to write too.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Ruby25

[MissLucas]

I'm starting to wonder if we were to dig into JF's past would we find a Thomas/Tom who bullied him remorselessly at whatever posh school he attended? Is that the reason why characters with that name are treated badly by him? Two characters with the same given name, identical initials and both not given a good plot in ages? I'm with Gibbs on this one 'There is no such thing as coincidence!'